What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

I think it's strange to see it flying over a State House. Considering those states left the US during the Civil War, I have no problems with them taking the flag down from State Houses.

But if Jim Bob Johnson in middle of nowhere Alabama wants to fly it, go for it. I think he's crazy, but whatever.

Don't they have a stupid bear flag flying over the statehouse in California? I think that's dumb too.

Every state flag is dumb.

at Delaware.

 

[cstu]

Okay. Fine. THIS is the Oregon Trail logo. But they could have colored it in, at least.

 

[matttyl]

Are Confederate Flag/Southern Pride enthusiasts as eager to defend the right of the Mexican Flag being flown by "Mexican Pride" enthusiasts? If the situation presented itself, I wonder if they'd be fully behind a Mexican Flag being flown in over State/Federal land/buildings in The United States.

Why not? There is a British flag flying over Hawaii's State and Federal buildings. There is a flag of a country that no longer exists flying over Texas' buildings. There is a symbol of a branch of Pueblo Indians flying over buildings in New Mexico. Maryland's flag has symbols from two prominent English families on it.

Yeah yeah, more fun with flags....

 

[Amused to Death]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

 

[moleculo]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

you really think that's what the Fox News crowd would say?

 

[proninja]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

You know, except for all the black people who didn't get to vote because they were considered property

 

[Amused to Death]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

you really think that's what the Fox News crowd would say?

You're not suggesting they would discriminate, are you? Its just a flag. I'm sure it's only to represent Obama's heritage.

 

[matttyl]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

you really think that's what the Fox News crowd would say?

You're not suggesting they would discriminate, are you? Its just a flag. I'm sure it's only to represent Obama's heritage.

If he wants to claim that heritage, he can go right ahead. Something tells me he's going to do that.

 

[timschochet]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

You know, except for all the black people who didn't get to vote because they were considered property

But that doesn't make the whites traitors.

 

[Rove!]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

you really think that's what the Fox News crowd would say?

You're not suggesting they would discriminate, are you? Its just a flag. I'm sure it's only to represent Obama's heritage.

If he wants to claim that heritage, he can go right ahead. Something tells me he's going to do that.

Considering that Obama had ancestors that owned salves, he could just as well claim his heritage with a confederate flag...

 

[D_House]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153052425093226&id=109521013225&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.10153052425093226

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

you really think that's what the Fox News crowd would say?

You're not suggesting they would discriminate, are you? Its just a flag. I'm sure it's only to represent Obama's heritage.

If he wants to claim that heritage, he can go right ahead. Something tells me he's going to do that.

Considering that Obama had ancestors that owned salves, he could just as well claim his heritage with a confederate flag...

Maybe people had a lot of rashes back then.

 

[proninja]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

You know, except for all the black people who didn't get to vote because they were considered property

But that doesn't make the whites traitors.

No, considering black people to be inferior and only worthy of being enslaved makes them racists, not traitors, that is correct.

 

[matttyl]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

You know, except for all the black people who didn't get to vote because they were considered property

But that doesn't make the whites traitors.

No, considering black people to be inferior and only worthy of being enslaved makes them racists, not traitors, that is correct.

The same could be said of most of the signers of the declaration of independence. And quite a few presidents.

 

[TPW]

Who said the flag was impinging on any rights? There are many issues of critical importance that operate outside the realm of "rights" issues. Pick a problem in the world, society, your community...one can't just ignore important issues because there's something "more dangerous" problems out there.But, while a flag itself does not impinge on rights per se, if you don't think symbolism and representation are important issues, then you are ignoring how symbols confer an identity and permission to do all sorts of terrible things, like what Roof did and the banner under which all terrorism functions. Removing a symbol that stands for slavery, that was the very moniker of white power, surely you can see why its removal as a state symbol is important.

Post Civil War, the North sought to heal this country as quickly as possible by not administrating heavy handed retribution against the Southern Insurgents. It's good today that some of the scions of those Southern Rebels sought to further heal this country by abandoning a flag that many saw as a symbol of racial anxiety and animosity.

Symbolism, conference of identity, and anxiety.

Taking a flag down does not in fashion any address in any quantifiable manner the greater issue of race relations in the United States. This is nothing more than feel-good, political window dressing for low information voters. And no, it is not as important as 18.2 trillion dollars in debt and rising or having 94 million able bodied Americans out of the labor force. As a society we continue to waste huge amounts of financial and political capital on piddling distractions.

PS- You really need to read up on The Reconstruction if you seriously believe the North wasn't heavy handed after the Civil War. Union forces granted Confederate troops the right to return home but Southerners still suffered mightily at the hands of the Ulysses Grant administration, arguably the most corrupt in United States history.

 

[timschochet]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

You know, except for all the black people who didn't get to vote because they were considered property

But that doesn't make the whites traitors.

No, considering black people to be inferior and only worthy of being enslaved makes them racists, not traitors, that is correct.

The same could be said of most of the signers of the declaration of independence. And quite a few presidents.

And about half of the North during the Civil War as well. Oh, and Abe Lincoln during most of the war.

 

[proninja]

The question of Union sympathizers in the South is one that should be studied intensely, because it's extremely pertinent to this question of traitors. I draw my information on this from James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. According to him, the decision to secede was overwhelming in the lower South, including Louisiana. It is true that no state except for Texas submitted the question to a popular vote, but McPherson writes that this was merely a matter of expediency (and also symmetry, because joining the union by the original states was not a question put to popular vote, but instead decided by state conventions.)

In Texas, the vote was something like 70%. Most historians believe that had the people of South Carolina been polled it would have been more like 95%. Judah P. Benjamin of Louisiana, a Conditional Unionist who wanted to stay IF Lincoln did nothing to harm slavery, wrote that the secessionist movement was like a "prairie fire which could not be halted" and Andrew Stephens made a similar comment.

You know, except for all the black people who didn't get to vote because they were considered property

But that doesn't make the whites traitors.

No, considering black people to be inferior and only worthy of being enslaved makes them racists, not traitors, that is correct.

The same could be said of most of the signers of the declaration of independence. And quite a few presidents.

And about half of the North during the Civil War as well. Oh, and Abe Lincoln during most of the war.

And? American society at the time was incredibly racist. In no way do I defend the racists of the North, and I won't glorify it either. Racism is a blight on our society that is an embarrassment and still goes on today. Just because I'm willing to call most all whites the antebellum South doesn't mean I'm defending the racists of the North.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

finally racism is over! I don't know how I slept with that rag flying in South Carolina..

Wasn't that what we were told a month and a half ago? Except for those "race baiters" and the "liberal media" of course.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Treason.

It means treason.

-QG

 

[Andrew74]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as against Americans.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Fixed that for you.I don't say that every individual soldier from the Confederacy is terrible, but saying you're proud to be associated with them is ridiculous.

Patriots fought against their fellow colonists in the Revolution yet we think they're great. Nobody thinks about the "Americans" they killed,

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'd love to see Obama put an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. Then let the Fox News crowd tell us how meaningless a flag is.

What's also funny is in the American flag thread some say flags are "silly."

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as Americans and they are NOT criminals or traitors.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

100% agree

Right, most of the Rebels were granted amnesty soon after the war and led constructive lives. Seems a little disingenuous for Americans today to hold them in such low regard when those who had just fought them were able to forgive them.

It is strange how people, or people with close relatives, who had been bloodied, shot at, faced the destruction of their homes and near desolation of their country could put down their anger and reconcile, and today there is so much fist shaking from people who did not.

It's also a completely different issue for those who are not facing similar controversies in their backyards. It's "the past" until it's not.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as against Americans.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

Fixed that for you.I don't say that every individual soldier from the Confederacy is terrible, but saying you're proud to be associated with them is ridiculous.

Patriots fought against their fellow colonists in the Revolution yet we think they're great. Nobody thinks about the "Americans" they killed,

''the British are coming....the British are coming''

 

[Thunderlips]

Who said the flag was impinging on any rights? There are many issues of critical importance that operate outside the realm of "rights" issues. Pick a problem in the world, society, your community...one can't just ignore important issues because there's something "more dangerous" problems out there.But, while a flag itself does not impinge on rights per se, if you don't think symbolism and representation are important issues, then you are ignoring how symbols confer an identity and permission to do all sorts of terrible things, like what Roof did and the banner under which all terrorism functions. Removing a symbol that stands for slavery, that was the very moniker of white power, surely you can see why its removal as a state symbol is important.

Post Civil War, the North sought to heal this country as quickly as possible by not administrating heavy handed retribution against the Southern Insurgents. It's good today that some of the scions of those Southern Rebels sought to further heal this country by abandoning a flag that many saw as a symbol of racial anxiety and animosity.

Symbolism, conference of identity, and anxiety.

Taking a flag down does not in fashion any address in any quantifiable manner the greater issue of race relations in the United States. This is nothing more than feel-good, political window dressing for low information voters. And no, it is not as important as 18.2 trillion dollars in debt and rising or having 94 million able bodied Americans out of the labor force. As a society we continue to waste huge amounts of financial and political capital on piddling distractions.

PS- You really need to read up on The Reconstruction if you seriously believe the North wasn't heavy handed after the Civil War. Union forces granted Confederate troops the right to return home but Southerners still suffered mightily at the hands of the Ulysses Grant administration, arguably the most corrupt in United States history.

Meh. There leaders were allowed to return home. They were allowed to return home. Even under Northern Rule, the Southerners were treated as about as well as any occupied and defeated people in the history of war.

 

[Christo]

I think Saints made some great points. I also want to state that it is absurd to regard Confederate soldiers as criminals. These men, many of them quite heroic, are not just part of southern heritage, they are a part of American heritage, and I am proud to be associated with most of them. They fought bravely and honorably as Americans and they are NOT criminals or traitors.

I am for removing the Battle Flag from all capitols and state flags because slavery and white supremacy were great evils and there should be no confusion about that. But that's as far as it goes. When people start talking about removing monuments and statues of Confederate soldiers I'm out.

100% agree

Right, most of the Rebels were granted amnesty soon after the war and led constructive lives. Seems a little disingenuous for Americans today to hold them in such low regard when those who had just fought them were able to forgive them.

Sure they forgave them, but the didn't celebrate their accomplishments, raise up memorials and hoist up the rebel flags above their buildings.Yet somehow, that's what we do. Celebrate the damn thing and honor them. Those who killed and maimed and hated their countrymen and most definitely hated the black people and were literally fighting to keep them in chains.

They left their country, took up arms, fired on Fort Sumter and enforced inhumane laws on slaves.

But hey, let's erect a monument to them, those who lost the god awful war that they started and celebrate their bravery.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

 

[The Commish]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I'm waiting for the call to remove the flag from places like Gettysburg as well.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

 

[The Commish]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

This is key IMO.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

This is key IMO.

Yup, it is. And the bill was roundly ridiculed and then buried by our elected representatives, as it should have been. Case closed.

 

[The Commish]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

This is key IMO.

Yup, it is. And the bill was roundly ridiculed and then buried by our elected representatives, as it should have been. Case closed.

We'll see how far our official try and take this. IMO, it's as dangerous to attempt to eradicate it completely as it is to celebrate it. We'll see how far "political correctness" goes with this.

 

[moleculo]

personally, I think that the only place it is appropriate to fly the flag is over graves of soldiers who fought in battle under that flag - i.e. soldiers of the Army of Northern Virginia or the Army of Tennessee.

that being said, a more appropriate flag would be the ***official*** confederate flag.

 

[Mjolnirs]

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries.

It was actually a counter to another proposal attached to the same bill that called for them to no longer be flown.Political football being used by both sides.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

So there are no headstones or monuments in National Cemeteries that have the confederate flag engraved on them?

 

[Mjolnirs]

So there are no headstones or monuments in National Cemeteries that have the confederate flag engraved on them?

Arlingtonflag on the monument

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

So there are no headstones or monuments in National Cemeteries that have the confederate flag engraved on them?

Arlington

Puke

 

[The Commish]

personally, I think that the only place it is appropriate to fly the flag is over graves of soldiers who fought in battle under that flag - i.e. soldiers of the Army of Northern Virginia or the Army of Tennessee.

that being said, a more appropriate flag would be the ***official*** confederate flag.

Can you explain this last part? I think that would be even worse.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

This is key IMO.

Yup, it is. And the bill was roundly ridiculed and then buried by our elected representatives, as it should have been. Case closed.

We'll see how far our official try and take this. IMO, it's as dangerous to attempt to eradicate it completely as it is to celebrate it. We'll see how far "political correctness" goes with this.

What in God's name are you talking about? Nothing is being "eradicated completely." The GOP tried to introduce a new measure to supersede a newly adopted measure restricting on displays in national cemeteries and on gift shop sales.

There's already a ton of things you can't do a grave site in a national cemetery, including leaving a candle, holding a vigil or religious service of any kind, use your own design of any kind for a headstone unless in a specially designated area, etc. We're not talking about a free exchange of ideas in an open public space here. It's about as tight a ship as you'll find, and people who don't want to comply with all that have plenty of other options for burial. You really think it's super-important that the one thing we decide to specifically protect in this restrictive environment is the confederate flag?

 

[TobiasFunke]

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries.

It was actually a counter to another proposal attached to the same bill that called for them to no longer be flown.Political football being used by both sides.

My bad, I thought it was done administratively.

So yes, political football being used by both sides. The difference is one side has the support of the people who own the property and the other does not, as the process has clearly shown.

 

[The Commish]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

This is key IMO.

Yup, it is. And the bill was roundly ridiculed and then buried by our elected representatives, as it should have been. Case closed.

We'll see how far our official try and take this. IMO, it's as dangerous to attempt to eradicate it completely as it is to celebrate it. We'll see how far "political correctness" goes with this.

What in God's name are you talking about? Nothing is being "eradicated." The GOP tried to introduce a new measure to supersede newly adopted restrictions on displays in national cemeteries and on gift shop sales. It was bizarre both in the sense that the legislature rarely concerns itself with oversight of federal property to that level of detail as a general matter, and because the impetus for this unusual reach was protecting Confederate flags.

Nobody's eradicating anything. Nobody's trying to take anything anywhere. There's already a ton of things you can't do a grave site in a national cemetery, including leaving a candle, holding a vigil or religious service of any kind, use your own design of any kind for a headstone unless in a specially designated area, etc. We're not talking about a free exchange of ideas in an open public space here. It's about as tight a ship as you'll find, and people who don't want to comply with all that have plenty of other options for burial. You really think it's super-important that the one thing we decide to specifically protect in this restrictive environment is the confederate flag?

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Washington (CNN)In an embarrassing setback for the Republican Party, which is trying to make inroads with minority voters, House Republican leaders abruptly yanked a spending bill off the floor after a blow up over the Confederate flag.

House members would have been voting on a proposal to allow the continued display of the flag at National Park Service cemeteries. The amendment was to be attached to the annual spending bill funding the Interior Department.

Democrats pounced on the political opening.

"Even in South Carolina today, where the Confederacy was born, that flag is being taken down from the state capitol grounds after both Republican-controlled houses of that state's assembly voted to remove it," said Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Maryland), the minority whip. "Certainly on this day we ought not to see a Republican-led Congress move in the opposite direction."

"You cannot go halfway -- you have to go the whole way," Lewis said when asked about Boehner's proposal to try to come up with a compromise, saying it was time for the flag to come down altogether "just do it - do the right thing."

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The bill would have permitted displays of the confederate flag in federal cemeteries. It had nothing to do with private property and what is or is not acceptable there. The property belongs to all of us collectively, and we all have a say in what happens there. That includes, for example, black families who probably don't want to be seeing symbols of slavery and segregation on their way to mourn their deceased loved ones. There are lots of regulations and restrictions concerning burials in federal cemeteries, so it's not like we're venturing into uncharted waters. If people don't wish to comply with those regulations they can have their loved ones buried elsewhere and do whatever they want with flags or headstones or anything else, so long as whoever owns that property is OK with it.

This is key IMO.

Yup, it is. And the bill was roundly ridiculed and then buried by our elected representatives, as it should have been. Case closed.

We'll see how far our official try and take this. IMO, it's as dangerous to attempt to eradicate it completely as it is to celebrate it. We'll see how far "political correctness" goes with this.

What in God's name are you talking about? Nothing is being "eradicated." The GOP tried to introduce a new measure to supersede newly adopted restrictions on displays in national cemeteries and on gift shop sales. It was bizarre both in the sense that the legislature rarely concerns itself with oversight of federal property to that level of detail as a general matter, and because the impetus for this unusual reach was protecting Confederate flags.

Nobody's eradicating anything. Nobody's trying to take anything anywhere. There's already a ton of things you can't do a grave site in a national cemetery, including leaving a candle, holding a vigil or religious service of any kind, use your own design of any kind for a headstone unless in a specially designated area, etc. We're not talking about a free exchange of ideas in an open public space here. It's about as tight a ship as you'll find, and people who don't want to comply with all that have plenty of other options for burial. You really think it's super-important that the one thing we decide to specifically protect in this restrictive environment is the confederate flag?

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

 

[moleculo]

IMO, what is going on is a national re-evaluation of the Lost Cause. It only took 150 years for the South to begin moving on from it's white-supremist past, but I'm glad it's finally happening. It's not done yet by any means, but within 20 years the folks claiming the Southern Cross is a symbol of heritage, and referring to the "War of Northern Aggression" and all that will be a distinct minority.

I know the flag is just a piece of cloth, and taking it down isn't solving anything...I get that. However, I do think it's worth celebrating the fact that the state of South Carolina is finally ready to move past it's segregationist past.

 

[cstu]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

 

[General Tso]

Don't hate on us Californians because our flag could beat up all of the other state flags.

It offends me, take it down....

Ditto. My Uncle was mauled by a bear while fishing in Denali. Take it down.

 

[cstu]

IMO, what is going on is a national re-evaluation of the Lost Cause. It only took 150 years for the South to begin moving on from it's white-supremist past, but I'm glad it's finally happening. It's not done yet by any means, but within 20 years the folks claiming the Southern Cross is a symbol of heritage, and referring to the "War of Northern Aggression" and all that will be a distinct minority.

I know the flag is just a piece of cloth, and taking it down isn't solving anything...I get that. However, I do think it's worth celebrating the fact that the state of South Carolina is finally ready to move past it's segregationist past.

It may seem like a small deal to white people, but if I was black I'd be pissed every time I saw that flag flying at the courthouse. It's like a big "#### you, you're not a slave anymore but you know how we really feel about you."

 

[Mjolnirs]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam.

You mean like the Fort Sumter National Monument removing the historical flags flying above the fort? eta - the Battle Flag was not one of them.You may have zero concern about these efforts picking up steam, but plenty of us have more than zero concern.

 

[moleculo]

personally, I think that the only place it is appropriate to fly the flag is over graves of soldiers who fought in battle under that flag - i.e. soldiers of the Army of Northern Virginia or the Army of Tennessee.

that being said, a more appropriate flag would be the ***official*** confederate flag.

Can you explain this last part? I think that would be even worse.

these guys died defending their (albeit) short-lived country, fighting against the USofA. It doesn't seem right to fly Old Glory over their graves.

The Southern Cross, (ala Dukes of Hazzard) was a battle flag, not the national flag. If they died in defense of the Confederate States of America, why wouldn't the national flag of the CSA be flown over their graves?

 

[cstu]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam.

You mean like the Fort Sumter National Monument removing the historical flags flying above the fort? eta - the Battle Flag was not one of them.You may have zero concern about these efforts picking up steam, but plenty of us have more than zero concern.

Why would Fort Sumter fly the loser's flag?

The Confederate flags belong in museums, not being flown on public property.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam.

You mean like the Fort Sumter National Monument removing the historical flags flying above the fort? eta - the Battle Flag was not one of them.You may have zero concern about these efforts picking up steam, but plenty of us have more than zero concern.

I have zero concern because I don't give a #### if we take down every Confederate flag that's flying on federal property everywhere and confine them solely to museums and similar displays. Fort Sumter is a bit of a gray area because I assume it's trying to replicate the actual physical appearance of the Fort at the time of the battle rather than just flying on a flagpole with no real context? If that's the case I don't mind it being displayed there. But really, who cares? What exactly am I supposed to be concerned about? Let me know when someone proposes removing it from museum displays or banning people from flying it on private property. Then I'll be concerned.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

This whole Mjolnirs thing is, and always has been, pretty friggin weird.