What does the confederate flag mean to you? (3 Viewers)

[Ditka Butkus]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

Cavalry.

oops..them too.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Private companies making business decisions concerns you? What are you, some kind of fascist?

And congratulations on being perhaps the only person in America who takes Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan seriously.

Taking down Confederate statues and monuments on public property is a reasonable point for discussion.

Right - crazy of me to take seriously the leading news anchor on CNN and the leader of the Nation of Islam. Do you ever hear yourself talking, Tobias? These aren't two ancillary, unknown figures. They are two of the most recognizable black leaders in America. You can make a lot better arguments about slippery slopes rarely materializing, etc. But to dismiss Don Lemon and Louis Farakhan as influential voices is just absurd.I agree with you on the Confederate statues piece. As to the actions of private companies that most people in here agree are dumb, knee jerk PC over-reactions, not sure how you'd call people voicing their displeasure on such idiotic reactions as "fascism". But if it gives a chance to lob another unnecessary insult at someone, then go for it. Seems to be your M.O.

Lemon and Farrakhan are idiots and very few people take them seriously. Do Trump's idiotic ramblings concern you? They don't concern me, and he's orders of magnitude more popular and influential than those clowns.

I agree that the private company actions you describe were dumb knee-jerk reactions. I just don't care about private companies doing dumb things. Private companies do dumb things I disagree with all the time. That's their right.

 

[Kal El]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

As I stated above, the National Cathedral.

A window in the National Cathedral is not what I meant by a museum exhibit or historical site. Its a display in a church, one that hosts services and concerts on a regular basis. I meant stuff telling the story of the Civil War, recording the existence of the Confederacy and its symbols for posterity and education. I don't see any reason to keep it up anywhere else.

What about at battle sites? Thousands of men died at those places for both sides, I think it's important to remember why they died at the site.

Depends how they're displayed, I guess. In a visitor center, sure. In a way that honors the dead? I don't really think that's necessary. You see any swastikas here? Do you think there should be some?

Fair point, but there are some differences between an internal national struggle that ended slavery and a worldwide conflict that resulted in the deaths of millions. Also, the swastika used to be a symbol of good luck. Why, when a symbol is used for a negative cause, don't more people come along and repurpose it for a positive use afterwards? That way, those trying to use the symbol negatively are outvoiced by the positive folks. I'm not saying there should be rebel flags and swastikas everywhere, but we control the use of symbols.

 

[urbanhack]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Private companies making business decisions concerns you? What are you, some kind of fascist?

And congratulations on being perhaps the only person in America who takes Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan seriously.

Taking down Confederate statues and monuments on public property is a reasonable point for discussion.

Right - crazy of me to take seriously the leading news anchor on CNN

 

[matttyl]

IMO this is getting ridiculous. Are they next going to want to remove confederate headstones that have the confederate flag engraved in them?

How about a few stained glass windows at the National Cathedral?

Funny thing would be removing the battle flag but leaving the CSA flags. I think that's what those other two are, right?

I'm not 100% sure of what windows they are proposing be removed, but if they wanted all the Confederate flags gone, they would need to remove all 4 in that picture.

 

[The Commish]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

As I stated above, the National Cathedral.

A window in the National Cathedral is not what I meant by a museum exhibit or historical site. Its a display in a church, one that hosts services and concerts on a regular basis. I meant stuff telling the story of the Civil War, recording the existence of the Confederacy and its symbols for posterity and education. I don't see any reason to keep it up anywhere else.

What about at battle sites? Thousands of men died at those places for both sides, I think it's important to remember why they died at the site.

Depends how they're displayed, I guess. In a visitor center, sure. In a way that honors the dead? I don't really think that's necessary. You see any swastikas here? Do you think there should be some?

Fair point, but there are some differences between an internal national struggle that ended slavery and a worldwide conflict that resulted in the deaths of millions. Also, the swastika used to be a symbol of good luck. Why, when a symbol is used for a negative cause, don't more people come along and repurpose it for a positive use afterwards? That way, those trying to use the symbol negatively are outvoiced by the positive folks. I'm not saying there should be rebel flags and swastikas everywhere, but we control the use of symbols.

This requires an understanding of history and context. Most people don't have time for that kind of stuff.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

This is what's going on in New Orleans.

The mayor appeared before the city council yesterday and proposed tearing down monuments and changing street names relating to Robert E. Lee, Jeff Davis, PGT Beuregard, and the Liberty Monument (which commemorates a successful pitched battle against the Republican police force of the day, in which the state government was run out for a while and the city government was overturned). One of the boulevards, Jeff Davis, would be renamed for a local black politico who runs a university (of course he's a big supporter of the mayor, living, etc., but that's another issue).

However - that was not good enough. There was a force of people that objected to the statue and street name and memorials for Andrew Jackson, who saved our city. There were objections to d'Iberville and Bienville, the men who founded our city. There are maybe a hundred place names and memorials that these people have demands on. And yes it extended to the American revolution and the American flag, but also French and Spanish names and symbols. There are people that actually object to the fleur de lis. That's real, that's happening.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

As I stated above, the National Cathedral.

A window in the National Cathedral is not what I meant by a museum exhibit or historical site. Its a display in a church, one that hosts services and concerts on a regular basis. I meant stuff telling the story of the Civil War, recording the existence of the Confederacy and its symbols for posterity and education. I don't see any reason to keep it up anywhere else.

What about at battle sites? Thousands of men died at those places for both sides, I think it's important to remember why they died at the site.

Depends how they're displayed, I guess. In a visitor center, sure. In a way that honors the dead? I don't really think that's necessary. You see any swastikas here? Do you think there should be some?

Fair point, but there are some differences between an internal national struggle that ended slavery and a worldwide conflict that resulted in the deaths of millions. Also, the swastika used to be a symbol of good luck. Why, when a symbol is used for a negative cause, don't more people come along and repurpose it for a positive use afterwards? That way, those trying to use the symbol negatively are outvoiced by the positive folks. I'm not saying there should be rebel flags and swastikas everywhere, but we control the use of symbols.

This requires an understanding of history and context. Most people don't have time for that kind of stuff.

I'd also say that in this particular case, any chance of this happening disappeared when the flag was repurposed as a symbol of opposition to civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s. it's pretty hard to re-repurpose something. If the Dukes and the Van Zants couldn't get it done, it's probably not happening.

 

[matttyl]

I want the statues and monuments to stay, so we can be reminded of our history and learn from it.

It won't be long before history books in our public schools will have to have the confederate flag removed.

I doubt that.

Well if the most recent reviews on probably the foremost authority on the flag's history have their say, it will be.

By the way, fascinating book if you're interested.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

As I stated above, the National Cathedral.

A window in the National Cathedral is not what I meant by a museum exhibit or historical site. Its a display in a church, one that hosts services and concerts on a regular basis. I meant stuff telling the story of the Civil War, recording the existence of the Confederacy and its symbols for posterity and education. I don't see any reason to keep it up anywhere else.

What about at battle sites? Thousands of men died at those places for both sides, I think it's important to remember why they died at the site.

Depends how they're displayed, I guess. In a visitor center, sure. In a way that honors the dead? I don't really think that's necessary. You see any swastikas here? Do you think there should be some?

Fair point, but there are some differences between an internal national struggle that ended slavery and a worldwide conflict that resulted in the deaths of millions. Also, the swastika used to be a symbol of good luck. Why, when a symbol is used for a negative cause, don't more people come along and repurpose it for a positive use afterwards? That way, those trying to use the symbol negatively are outvoiced by the positive folks. I'm not saying there should be rebel flags and swastikas everywhere, but we control the use of symbols.

This requires an understanding of history and context. Most people don't have time for that kind of stuff.

I'd also say that in this particular case, any chance of this happening disappeared when the flag was repurposed as a symbol of opposition to civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s. it's pretty hard to re-repurpose something. If the Dukes and the Van Zants couldn't get it done, it's probably not happening.

I'm gonna say Dylann Roof repurposed it in one fell swoop.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Not only was the flag removed but the flag pole as well

 

[timschochet]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Let's say it all comes down. (which it won't) End times?

 

[timschochet]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

That might have once been true, but I don't believe it is any more.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I want the statues and monuments to stay, so we can be reminded of our history and learn from it.

It won't be long before history books in our public schools will have to have the confederate flag removed.

I doubt that.

Well if the most recent reviews on probably the foremost authority on the flag's history have their say, it will be.By the way, fascinating book if you're interested.

Well I'm sold.

 

[matttyl]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

That might have once been true, but I don't believe it is any more.

At least 28% of them polled apparently don't.

 

[matttyl]

I want the statues and monuments to stay, so we can be reminded of our history and learn from it.

It won't be long before history books in our public schools will have to have the confederate flag removed.

I doubt that.

Well if the most recent reviews on probably the foremost authority on the flag's history have their say, it will be.By the way, fascinating book if you're interested.

Well I'm sold.

To be honest with you I'm surprised that book (or at least the picture of it) is still available on Amazon.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Okay.

Then.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I want the statues and monuments to stay, so we can be reminded of our history and learn from it.

It won't be long before history books in our public schools will have to have the confederate flag removed.

I doubt that.

Well if the most recent reviews on probably the foremost authority on the flag's history have their say, it will be.By the way, fascinating book if you're interested.

Well I'm sold.

To be honest with you I'm surprised that book (or at least the picture of it) is still available on Amazon.

Like I need some polock telling me history.

 

[timschochet]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

That might have once been true, but I don't believe it is any more.

At least 28% of them polled apparently don't.

No you read that wrong. What the poll says is that 72% of blacks see the flag as racist. That's a very large number- you rarely see numbers that large among any group in any poll. But it does not mean that 28% DON'T see it as racist, because usually among the 28%, there's some who don't care or don't understand the question.

 

[jonessed]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.) Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

That might have once been true, but I don't believe it is any more.

At least 28% of them polled apparently don't.

No you read that wrong. What the poll says is that 72% of blacks see the flag as racist. That's a very large number- you rarely see numbers that large among any group in any poll. But it does not mean that 28% DON'T see it as racist, because usually among the 28%, there's some who don't care or don't understand the question.

How are you differentiating between "don't care" and "couldn't care less"?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Its a flag. Taking it down wont bring the dead back from that church shooting. Nor will it stop people from being racist.

 

[Don Quixote]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

That might have once been true, but I don't believe it is any more.

At least 28% of them polled apparently don't.

No you read that wrong. What the poll says is that 72% of blacks see the flag as racist. That's a very large number- you rarely see numbers that large among any group in any poll. But it does not mean that 28% DON'T see it as racist, because usually among the 28%, there's some who don't care or don't understand the question.

Reading that poll, worth pointing out that the specific question asked was, "Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride or more as a symbol of racism?" The question wasn't, is it racist or not. In addition to the 72% who saw it more as symbol of racism, 7% saw it equally (so, I guess at least 79% saw some racism). For those who responded as pride, impossible to know if they still saw it as partially racist.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/07/01/confederate.flag.pdf

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

None taken...I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

True, but you don't have to be black to find the confederate flag offensive. I'm as white as they come and relatively hard to offend (I have no issues with the Redskins, for example), and even I find it a little sketchy. Not the kind of thing I lose sleep over, but if it were up to me, no government in the US would honor a defeated nation that fought in favor of slavery. If it had been a noble cause or something, then maybe I would see things differently, but slavery? Come on.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Then.

Doesn't look like a guy who spent a lot of time at Gold's Gym.

 

[Insomniac]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Private companies making business decisions concerns you? What are you, some kind of fascist?

And congratulations on being perhaps the only person in America who takes Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan seriously.

Taking down Confederate statues and monuments on public property is a reasonable point for discussion.

I want the statues and monuments to stay, so we can be reminded of our history and learn from it.

The monuments were all built to glorify the Confederates and their cause. Why should their cause of insurrection, slavery and racial supremacy be promoted by the federal, state and local governments in the United States?

What do people learn from memorials to Nathaniel Bedford Forrest? That because he was an excellent soldier with terrible values fighting for an awful cause he should be honored forever? Do any of the monuments to him mention Fort Pillow or his role in the early KKK and the history of that organization?

 

[timschochet]

Bedford Forrest is another complex figure. Here is part of a speech he gave to blacks toward the end of his life:

Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation. I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt – that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man- to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Then.

Doesn't look like a guy who spent a lot of time at Gold's Gym.

ya he looks more like a planet fitness type ....who ignores the judgment free zone rule

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I want the American flag removed from federal sites as my Native American Indian ancestors were slaughtered by US Calvary.

See, this is just silly, and it shows an ignorance of history and facts, no offense. Go to any Native American powwow or gathering, and you will see hundreds of American flags. Native Americans have participated in every major war this country has ever been involved in and the vast majority of tribes are very proud of this and proud of their flag. They are not offended by the American flag at all, in the same way that African-Americans are offended by the Confederate battle flag. (I should note that many native Americans, particularly in what is now Oklahoma but what was then called Indian Territory, fought for the Confederacy as well.)

Now, there ARE certain groups of Americans in this country that could claim offense against the American flag. For example, if I were of Hawaiian blood, I might be still be a little pissed off over how some of the choicest beach real estate property in the world was stolen from Queen Liliuokalani.

I think we need to take a different approach to this Confederate flag controversy...lets ignore the whole ''it represents slavery ''angle...and i say this because it was a 150 years ago...its impossible to know if anyone still thinks slavery is ok or not in this day and age ...it was used as a battle flag back then so i cant say one way or another what it represented back then...throw in the fact that the American flag as we know it was the flag that we used when forcing Indians off there own land and slaughtering them at different times back then...shame on us as a country for that ...this is what i will go with instead.....The southerners did this to themselves when they decided to use the confederate flag as a rally flag during the 1940`s segregation issues and there after.. its reared its ugly head at KKK clan gatherings and a lot of racist events ...then it popped up with this idiot killing 9 blacks to start a race war...and there he is with his southern pride flag in his pictures while spewing hate ...he didnt dream up the idea on his own(hes far too stupid ) what the confederate flag means ...he lives down there and he knows what it means...him and many many MANY others ...time to move on and once again be one nation under god and indivisible for liberty and justice FOR ALL races ...religions and sexual gender preference

 

[Christo]

Okay.

Then.

Shut down Gold's Gym!

 

[Mjolnirs]

I would imagine there are many black people who couldn't care less about the confederate flag as well...

That might have once been true, but I don't believe it is any more.

I share an office with a mid 30s black woman (my work wife according to her) and she told me an interesting story this week. She was born in South Carolina, raised in Virginia and moved back to SC after college. She had a friend from Virginia call her this week to ask her opinion on this flag issue. This young lady knew Rev. Pinckney, and she and her daughter were christened by him. Her friend became upset with her because she replied that the flag doesn't bother her. She told her friend that she's never had a problem with the flag or anyone that displays it. She also explained to her friend about sharing an office with me and my views on the flag. She told her friend the flag doesn't bother her and taking it down wasn't going to change a thing.

This whole Mjolnirs thing is, and always has been, pretty friggin weird.

I realize many don't get it.

 

[tdoss]

I hear they're digging up Nathan Bedford Forrest now.

Maybe they're going to bury him on some slippery slope?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Okay.

Then.

Shut down Gold's Gym!

If they had a unquestioned rash of hate mongers killing people... we would.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

A historic day as the Confederate Flag, after flying for decades. was finally taken down and quietly retired at Walt Disney World's Epcot theme park. Look away, look away, look away Disneyland.

 

[Christo]

Okay.

Then.

Shut down Gold's Gym!

If they had a unquestioned rash of hate mongers killing people... we would.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_minute/2006/06/killer_workout.html

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Okay.

Then.

Shut down Gold's Gym!

If they had a unquestioned rash of hate mongers killing people... we would.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_minute/2006/06/killer_workout.html

Specificity.

 

[Mister CIA]

Okay.

Then.

Shut down Gold's Gym!

If they had a unquestioned rash of hate mongers killing people... we would.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_minute/2006/06/killer_workout.html

Wry smile.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Okay.

Then.

Shut down Gold's Gym!

If they had a unquestioned rash of hate mongers killing people... we would.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_minute/2006/06/killer_workout.html

Wry smile.

 

[Courtjester]

They gave their lives and we gave them a pen.

Just had a Say Anything flashback there.....

 

[GilbertGrape]

Bedford Forrest is another complex figure. Here is part of a speech he gave to blacks toward the end of his life:

Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation. I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt – that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man- to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.

A lot of people only remember Forrest as a founding member of the KKK. But while he was in charge, he did not direct the KKK to target blacks. They killed Republican carpetbaggers instead.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It seems like nothing more than a political tactic { see we did something} to avoid the actual problem which is gun control, specifically hand guns. The confederate flag flying Lynyrd Skynyrd said it best: Hand guns are made for killin'..They ain't no good for nothin' else...........So why don't we dump 'em people To the bottom of the sea before some ol' fool come around here Wanna shoot either you or me....

 

[matuski]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Private companies making business decisions concerns you? What are you, some kind of fascist?

And congratulations on being perhaps the only person in America who takes Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan seriously.

Taking down Confederate statues and monuments on public property is a reasonable point for discussion.

Right - crazy of me to take seriously the leading news anchor on CNN and the leader of the Nation of Islam. Do you ever hear yourself talking, Tobias? These aren't two ancillary, unknown figures. They are two of the most recognizable black leaders in America. You can make a lot better arguments about slippery slopes rarely materializing, etc. But to dismiss Don Lemon and Louis Farakhan as influential voices is just absurd.I agree with you on the Confederate statues piece. As to the actions of private companies that most people in here agree are dumb, knee jerk PC over-reactions, not sure how you'd call people voicing their displeasure on such idiotic reactions as "fascism". But if it gives a chance to lob another unnecessary insult at someone, then go for it. Seems to be your M.O.

Yes, yes it is.

 

[General Tso]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farrakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Private companies making business decisions concerns you? What are you, some kind of fascist?

And congratulations on being perhaps the only person in America who takes Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan seriously.

Taking down Confederate statues and monuments on public property is a reasonable point for discussion.

Right - crazy of me to take seriously the leading news anchor on CNN and the leader of the Nation of Islam. Do you ever hear yourself talking, Tobias? These aren't two ancillary, unknown figures. They are two of the most recognizable black leaders in America. You can make a lot better arguments about slippery slopes rarely materializing, etc. But to dismiss Don Lemon and Louis Farakhan as influential voices is just absurd.I agree with you on the Confederate statues piece. As to the actions of private companies that most people in here agree are dumb, knee jerk PC over-reactions, not sure how you'd call people voicing their displeasure on such idiotic reactions as "fascism". But if it gives a chance to lob another unnecessary insult at someone, then go for it. Seems to be your M.O.

Yes, yes it is.

This is where Liberals lose all credibility in here. A lunatic kills 9 black people in a church. A picture surfaces of him holding a confederate flag, which according to you is significant and influential. But the words and deeds of two of the most well known black leaders, one who hosts a show on CNN every night and the other who leads the second largest organization in the country promoting black causes, are somehow not significant and influential? It's an asinine statement on so many levels, even for you guys.This thread started with the simple notion that the Confederate flag needed to come down from governmental property. At that time a lot of people in here suggested that Liberals wouldn't just stop there, and warned of a slippery slope, to which they received the typical ridicule and derision from people on the Left. Someone jokingly suggested that eventually we might even see the Dukes of Hazzard taken off of TV. It was laughed at. Rush Limbaugh suggested the American flag would come under attack next. He was ridiculed and laughed at. Three weeks later we see that if anything, most people actually UNDERESTIMATED the lengths to which Liberals in 2015 would push the envelope. And when presented with the facts showing all the slippery slopes that in fact ensued, you guys respond that WE are crazy for placing any stock in the words of Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan? Wow.

Gotta say, the Liberals in this forum are approaching some pretty uncharted territories when it comes to intellectual dishonesty. It's pretty shocking actually. As someone who prior to this year rarely paid attention to much of the news, I always had a hard time understanding why Conservatives were so obstinate in fighting Liberals trying to encroach on any second amendment issues, most of which a rationale person would support as common sense gun control. Now I understand it completely. Because it doesn't just stop there with Liberals. Their worldview of the role of government and individual liberties is such that slippery slopes are pretty much inevitable.

All that being said, the removal of the confederate flag from governmental properties this week was a great thing, and long overdue. Let's just keep it at that please.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

influential

Branding is massive in its ability influence. More so then most any single talking-head.

 

[Apple Jack]

This thread reminds me of a 3am trip to Walmart.

 

[General Tso]

Nice spot on MTP this morning with Doris Kearns Goodwin and Arthur Brooks, praising Republican leadership in South Carolina (Gov. Haley and Senator Tim Scott) for leading the charge to take down the Confederate flag. Brooks calling it the future of the Repulican Party - a female Governor, daughter of two immigrants, and a black Southern Conservative. Good to see.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

 

[In The Zone]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

One of the best things to come out of this for me is the lifting of the NCAA ban. I would love for events like the 1st/2nd round of the NCAA tourney coming to the CLA.

One convention that did boycott was the Black Coaches Association.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

The only takeaway is that the NCAA boycott was based on the NAACP boycott. I'm sure there were some NAACP events that didn't take place in the state, but outside of the NCAA, the NAACP boycott was negligible.