What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[The Commish]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

All were generally toothless. None of those groups have/had any reason to have major events in SC, not when you have Raleigh, Charlotte, ATL etc all within a few hours.

 

[General Tso]

I think this thing has been conflated in a very strange way, like how mass media manipulatively drives narratives and draws attention away from other issues. The timing along with the gay marriage ruling just seems kind of odd. I don't know what to make of that but it's weird to me.

Most people seem to associate it with racism but I think it has more to do with rebellion against a large central government than slavery. Lincoln said he didn't care whether slavery was abolished or preserved as long as the union reigned supreme; part of the state's rights argument obviously hinged on slavery but I think it's disingenuous to just lump racism onto the flag and treat it like a relic of that alone.

The US flag stands on account of legalized slavery, massacred Indians, empire and war. Can we take that one down too?

You may be right as to the benign meaning behind the flag to some Southerners. It's irrelevant though. What's more important is that to most blacks it represents something sinister. This is one instance where it makes complete sense to honor the wishes of people who suffered some pretty horrendous ####. The Southern whites can live without the flag. Embrace other symbols of Southern pride.

 

[cstu]

I think this thing has been conflated in a very strange way, like how mass media manipulatively drives narratives and draws attention away from other issues. The timing along with the gay marriage ruling just seems kind of odd. I don't know what to make of that but it's weird to me.

Most people seem to associate it with racism but I think it has more to do with rebellion against a large central government than slavery. Lincoln said he didn't care whether slavery was abolished or preserved as long as the union reigned supreme; part of the state's rights argument obviously hinged on slavery but I think it's disingenuous to just lump racism onto the flag and treat it like a relic of that alone.

The US flag stands on account of legalized slavery, massacred Indians, empire and war. Can we take that one down too?

If that's the case then fly the Gadsden flag.

 

[cstu]

This is where Liberals lose all credibility in here. A lunatic kills 9 black people in a church. A picture surfaces of him holding a confederate flag, which according to you is significant and influential. But the words and deeds of two of the most well known black leaders, one who hosts a show on CNN every night and the other who leads the second largest organization in the country promoting black causes, are somehow not significant and influential? It's an asinine statement on so many levels, even for you guys.

This thread started with the simple notion that the Confederate flag needed to come down from governmental property. At that time a lot of people in here suggested that Liberals wouldn't just stop there, and warned of a slippery slope, to which they received the typical ridicule and derision from people on the Left. Someone jokingly suggested that eventually we might even see the Dukes of Hazzard taken off of TV. It was laughed at. Rush Limbaugh suggested the American flag would come under attack next. He was ridiculed and laughed at. Three weeks later we see that if anything, most people actually UNDERESTIMATED the lengths to which Liberals in 2015 would push the envelope. And when presented with the facts showing all the slippery slopes that in fact ensued, you guys respond that WE are crazy for placing any stock in the words of Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan? Wow.

Gotta say, the Liberals in this forum are approaching some pretty uncharted territories when it comes to intellectual dishonesty. It's pretty shocking actually. As someone who prior to this year rarely paid attention to much of the news, I always had a hard time understanding why Conservatives were so obstinate in fighting Liberals trying to encroach on any second amendment issues, most of which a rationale person would support as common sense gun control. Now I understand it completely. Because it doesn't just stop there with Liberals. Their worldview of the role of government and individual liberties is such that slippery slopes are pretty much inevitable.

All that being said, the removal of the confederate flag from governmental properties this week was a great thing, and long overdue. Let's just keep it at that please.

As a country we need to stop getting caught up with what people in the fringe of a party do. There are always going to be wackos of every political affiliation proposing nutty ideas, but we should be concerned about what mainstream people in a party think not the wackos.

Your average liberal Democrat doesn't want the Confederate flag removed from museums, it's as simple as that.

 

[Yenrub]

I didn't say this action was an attempt to eradicate anything I was talking about the future and wondering out loud how far this was going to go. I think the talk about removing the flag from national historic sites like Gettysburg is an example of where this could go. You don't like the word eradicate, fine. Use whatever words/phrases you want to describe the removal of historic symbols from historic sites.

So you're concerned about a slippery slope? I think we can handle this one. I haven't seen a single person suggest the flag should be removed from historical displays like museum exhibits or historical sites. Maybe there's a handful of nutjobs out there demanding it, but I have zero concern about that kind of effort picking up steam. We display far worse things than Confederate flags in historical displays on federal property.

A lot of people up in arms about nothing. No one is looking to erase history, this is about a symbol of racism being celebrated on public property.

Right. It's not like companies are removing civil war games that feature the confederate flag, or tv shows where the flag appears on the top of a car, or calling for Confederate statues and monuments to be taken down, or board games taken off the shelves because the flag appears, or news anchors whispering on CNN about "maybe we need to have a conversation about the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves", or Louis Farrakhan calling for the American flag to be taken down....Shall I go on?

I think we have seen more than enough slippery slopes to be legitimately concerned about it.

Private companies making business decisions concerns you? What are you, some kind of fascist?

And congratulations on being perhaps the only person in America who takes Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan seriously.

Taking down Confederate statues and monuments on public property is a reasonable point for discussion.

Right - crazy of me to take seriously the leading news anchor on CNN and the leader of the Nation of Islam. Do you ever hear yourself talking, Tobias? These aren't two ancillary, unknown figures. They are two of the most recognizable black leaders in America. You can make a lot better arguments about slippery slopes rarely materializing, etc. But to dismiss Don Lemon and Louis Farakhan as influential voices is just absurd.I agree with you on the Confederate statues piece. As to the actions of private companies that most people in here agree are dumb, knee jerk PC over-reactions, not sure how you'd call people voicing their displeasure on such idiotic reactions as "fascism". But if it gives a chance to lob another unnecessary insult at someone, then go for it. Seems to be your M.O.

Yes, yes it is.

This is where Liberals lose all credibility in here. A lunatic kills 9 black people in a church. A picture surfaces of him holding a confederate flag, which according to you is significant and influential. But the words and deeds of two of the most well known black leaders, one who hosts a show on CNN every night and the other who leads the second largest organization in the country promoting black causes, are somehow not significant and influential? It's an asinine statement on so many levels, even for you guys.This thread started with the simple notion that the Confederate flag needed to come down from governmental property. At that time a lot of people in here suggested that Liberals wouldn't just stop there, and warned of a slippery slope, to which they received the typical ridicule and derision from people on the Left. Someone jokingly suggested that eventually we might even see the Dukes of Hazzard taken off of TV. It was laughed at. Rush Limbaugh suggested the American flag would come under attack next. He was ridiculed and laughed at. Three weeks later we see that if anything, most people actually UNDERESTIMATED the lengths to which Liberals in 2015 would push the envelope. And when presented with the facts showing all the slippery slopes that in fact ensued, you guys respond that WE are crazy for placing any stock in the words of Don Lemon and Louis Farrakhan? Wow.

Gotta say, the Liberals in this forum are approaching some pretty uncharted territories when it comes to intellectual dishonesty. It's pretty shocking actually. As someone who prior to this year rarely paid attention to much of the news, I always had a hard time understanding why Conservatives were so obstinate in fighting Liberals trying to encroach on any second amendment issues, most of which a rationale person would support as common sense gun control. Now I understand it completely. Because it doesn't just stop there with Liberals. Their worldview of the role of government and individual liberties is such that slippery slopes are pretty much inevitable.

All that being said, the removal of the confederate flag from governmental properties this week was a great thing, and long overdue. Let's just keep it at that please.

Was there some sort of big protest outside of the TV Land studios or were advertisers threatening to pull out because of the Dukes of Hazzard?

Or did TV Land happen to see an opportunity to perhaps capitalize on the national discussion?

 

[Jayrok]

The state trooper that lowered the flag is my cousin. Part of the SC highway patrol honor guard. Interesting (at least to me) note for my family's history.

 

[matttyl]

I hear they're digging up Nathan Bedford Forrest now.

Maybe they're going to bury him on some slippery slope?

At least discussing it. He and his wife.

 

[The Commish]

The state trooper that lowered the flag is my cousin. Part of the SC highway patrol honor guard. Interesting (at least to me) note for my family's history.

That's pretty cool. One thing that annoyed the #### out of me with the coverage were the talking about the black man on the honor guard and it being a slap in the face and all that garbage. Did he talk about any of that by any chance? Fortunately, that angle didn't get much play anywhere but CNN, but I was wondering if there was legit discussion to be had about it.

 

[Jayrok]

The state trooper that lowered the flag is my cousin. Part of the SC highway patrol honor guard. Interesting (at least to me) note for my family's history.

That's pretty cool. One thing that annoyed the #### out of me with the coverage were the talking about the black man on the honor guard and it being a slap in the face and all that garbage. Did he talk about any of that by any chance? Fortunately, that angle didn't get much play anywhere but CNN, but I was wondering if there was legit discussion to be had about it.

I haven't heard any discussion on that. That guy was the one who furled it and carried it away, IIRC. Why would that be a slap on the face? Bystanders were chanting "na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye".

 

[moleculo]

The state trooper that lowered the flag is my cousin. Part of the SC highway patrol honor guard. Interesting (at least to me) note for my family's history.

That's pretty cool. One thing that annoyed the #### out of me with the coverage were the talking about the black man on the honor guard and it being a slap in the face and all that garbage. Did he talk about any of that by any chance? Fortunately, that angle didn't get much play anywhere but CNN, but I was wondering if there was legit discussion to be had about it.

didn't see it, but that's pretty stupid. What are they going to do - ask him to not do a part of his job because he is black? That would be much worse, IMO.

 

[The Commish]

The state trooper that lowered the flag is my cousin. Part of the SC highway patrol honor guard. Interesting (at least to me) note for my family's history.

That's pretty cool. One thing that annoyed the #### out of me with the coverage were the talking about the black man on the honor guard and it being a slap in the face and all that garbage. Did he talk about any of that by any chance? Fortunately, that angle didn't get much play anywhere but CNN, but I was wondering if there was legit discussion to be had about it.

I haven't heard any discussion on that. That guy was the one who furled it and carried it away, IIRC. Why would that be a slap on the face? Bystanders were chanting "na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye".

Yeah, I only heard it on CNN so take it FWIW, but some dooshnozzle was all over himself. Everyone on site was hugging, teary eyed, reflecting and this guy is on his soapbox about making "the black man" carry off the flag.

 

[Slapdash]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

All were generally toothless. None of those groups have/had any reason to have major events in SC, not when you have Raleigh, Charlotte, ATL etc all within a few hours.

Conference baseball/basketball tournaments in Greenville or Columbia as well as a potential bowl game in Charleston have been put off because of this.

 

[Jayrok]

The state trooper that lowered the flag is my cousin. Part of the SC highway patrol honor guard. Interesting (at least to me) note for my family's history.

That's pretty cool. One thing that annoyed the #### out of me with the coverage were the talking about the black man on the honor guard and it being a slap in the face and all that garbage. Did he talk about any of that by any chance? Fortunately, that angle didn't get much play anywhere but CNN, but I was wondering if there was legit discussion to be had about it.

I haven't heard any discussion on that. That guy was the one who furled it and carried it away, IIRC. Why would that be a slap on the face? Bystanders were chanting "na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye".

Yeah, I only heard it on CNN so take it FWIW, but some dooshnozzle was all over himself. Everyone on site was hugging, teary eyed, reflecting and this guy is on his soapbox about making "the black man" carry off the flag.

Someone looking for drama where there is none.

 

[Doug B]

Was there some sort of big protest outside of the TV Land studios or were advertisers threatening to pull out because of the Dukes of Hazzard?

Or did TV Land happen to see an opportunity to perhaps capitalize on the national discussion?

Cynical me-too-ism by everyone involved. Neither the advertisers nor Viacom gave a rip six weeks ago.

Doing the right thing is admirable, but no one should be claiming moral high ground unless they were in on the ground floor.

 

[The Commish]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

All were generally toothless. None of those groups have/had any reason to have major events in SC, not when you have Raleigh, Charlotte, ATL etc all within a few hours.

Conference baseball/basketball tournaments in Greenville or Columbia as well as a potential bowl game in Charleston have been put off because of this.

Right..."major events" was key to my comment

 

[In The Zone]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

All were generally toothless. None of those groups have/had any reason to have major events in SC, not when you have Raleigh, Charlotte, ATL etc all within a few hours.

Conference baseball/basketball tournaments in Greenville or Columbia as well as a potential bowl game in Charleston have been put off because of this.

Right..."major events" was key to my comment

Do you mean like the NCAA tourney? The 1st/2nd round could definitely come to Columbia.

 

[The Commish]

So it looks like the NAACP, the NCAA, and the UAW are ending their boycotts of South Carolina. For the NCAA this means that South Carolina can host championships. Not sure how the end of boycotting for NAACP and UAW translates. Does it simply mean they can have conventions in SC?

All were generally toothless. None of those groups have/had any reason to have major events in SC, not when you have Raleigh, Charlotte, ATL etc all within a few hours.

Conference baseball/basketball tournaments in Greenville or Columbia as well as a potential bowl game in Charleston have been put off because of this.

Right..."major events" was key to my comment

Do you mean like the NCAA tourney? The 1st/2nd round could definitely come to Columbia.

The old first round or the new first round? I can see the new "first round" sure.....they'd have to sell their souls to get anything beyond the round of 64. Charlotte has problems sometimes.

 

[matttyl]

Not only was the flag removed but the flag pole as well

...and the concrete pad, and the fence.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So. Now there is an underground movement to boycott the city of New Orleans because the mayor has called for an evaluation of the removal of four confederate memorials. Yip.Pee.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

"New Orleans women are sluts and the men are idiots."

-Jim McMahon

 

[timschochet]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

"New Orleans women are sluts and the men are idiots."

-Jim McMahon

I see you know your history.

 

[matttyl]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

Yes, this is going on in several places. Memphis is one, New Orleans is another. At least a couple other places.

It's black and white calling for removal. It's largely white objecting but there is also a black contingent that objects to all confederacy or slavery-era related place names and memorials, which might number over a hundred, as well as the fleur de lis and memorials (statues, place and street names) to our French and Spanish past. The city will probably split over this, but we shall see. I am told local social media is blowing up. The local rag the Picayune is driving some of this with their click-driven content, and that of course is driven by emotion.

Out of curiosity I went to look at the plaque on the Lee memorial earlier today, because I know some of the other plaques in the nation say things like "heroes...' or other honoraria. The one here just notes he was a general for the CSA 1861-64, that's it.

 

[timschochet]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

 

[Clifford]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

"New Orleans women are sluts and the men are idiots."

-Jim McMahon

I see you know your history.

A prior version:

"As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subject to repeated insult from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous non-interference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation."

In other words, a lady who failed to extend every courtesy and pleasantry to a Federal soldier or officer was to be regarded and treated as a street prostitute - something of which Butler's peer, General Joseph Hooker, would know much.

http://www.oocities.org/heartland/woods/3501//federal6.htm

The infamous "Order 28".

Let's just say that didn't go over well.

 

[timschochet]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

 

[timschochet]

"New Orleans women are sluts and the men are idiots."

-Jim McMahon

I see you know your history.

A prior version:

"As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subject to repeated insult from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous non-interference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation."

In other words, a lady who failed to extend every courtesy and pleasantry to a Federal soldier or officer was to be regarded and treated as a street prostitute - something of which Butler's peer, General Joseph Hooker, would know much.

http://www.oocities.org/heartland/woods/3501//federal6.htm

The infamous "Order 28".

Let's just say that didn't go over well.

Butler was a cad and a lout.

But- New Orleans could have been a hot bed of insurgency, like Missouri was (or Saigon in the 1960s). Butler's rules were draconic, but he did keep New Orleans quiet which probably contributed to the fall of Vicksburg sooner rather than later.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

"New Orleans women are sluts and the men are idiots."

-Jim McMahon

I see you know your history.

A prior version:

"As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subject to repeated insult from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous non-interference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation."

In other words, a lady who failed to extend every courtesy and pleasantry to a Federal soldier or officer was to be regarded and treated as a street prostitute - something of which Butler's peer, General Joseph Hooker, would know much.

http://www.oocities.org/heartland/woods/3501//federal6.htm

The infamous "Order 28".

Let's just say that didn't go over well.

Butler was a cad and a lout.

But- New Orleans could have been a hot bed of insurgency, like Missouri was (or Saigon in the 1960s). Butler's rules were draconic, but he did keep New Orleans quiet which probably contributed to the fall of Vicksburg sooner rather than later.

Considering the fact that our economy has for the last 100 years basically revolved around getting people drunk in the French Quarter which would have been blown to smithereens first thing, I'd say they made the wise choice to play it cool.

However by about 1874 there was a pitched battle with cannons etc. That happens to be another of the memorials. That one, in my opinion, at least, needs to go. It's currently jammed between a railway trestle and a power station.

 

[matttyl]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

They're just looking into it a this point.

 

[moleculo]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I think it's worth discussing. I can't find the article now, but someone posted something a while back on the sheer number of Confederate memorials throughout the south - there are far more memorials (including streets named after generals) to the confederacy than there are of the American Revolution, or any other war. Would it kill us to pare back a bit?

IMO, a lot of these memorials were established as a veiled ode to white supremacy...Nathan Bedford Forrest, in particular. Edmund Pettus is another. The movement to rename the Pettus bridge, by the way, predates Charleston.

ETA: changing the names of parks/bridges/streets is not the same as trying to forget or erase history...this is simply choosing to no longer honor a past we, collectively, don't want to honor any more.

 

[timschochet]

Yeah, certain occupied cities in war get lucky. New Orleans in 1862, Paris in 1940. I'm sure the people of those cities would prefer not to be conquered, but in each case most of the citizens survived and the historic buildings stayed intact. Whereas cities like Atlanta and Warsaw fight to the death and that's exactly what they got: total death and destruction.

The real mystery for me in the Civil War is Charleston. You would think, that having started the whole affair (secession AND Fort Sumter), that Sherman would have razed the entire city, burning everything in site. Yet he left it untouched for some reason, going after Columbia and the rest of South Carolina instead. That's good for us- we have a beautiful city to look at (and one I plan to visit someday.) But why did the Yankees leave Charleston alone?

 

[timschochet]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I think it's worth discussing. I can't find the article now, but someone posted something a while back on the sheer number of Confederate memorials throughout the south - there are far more memorials (including streets named after generals) to the confederacy than there are of the American Revolution, or any other war. Would it kill us to pare back a bit?

IMO, a lot of these memorials were established as a veiled ode to white supremacy...Nathan Bedford Forrest, in particular. Edmund Pettus is another. The movement to rename the Pettus bridge, by the way, predates Charleston.

I don't mind renaming streets, though I think it should be given some thought.

If one can provide evidence that they truly are veiled odes to white supremacy, then I would be willing to reconsider. But I fear the evidence for this is going to be tepid at best. As I pointed out earlier, Nathan Bedford Forrest was a complex figure, a great general, (though probably a war criminal), and the organization he started was not representative of the modern KKK.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I think it's worth discussing. I can't find the article now, but someone posted something a while back on the sheer number of Confederate memorials throughout the south - there are far more memorials (including streets named after generals) to the confederacy than there are of the American Revolution, or any other war. Would it kill us to pare back a bit?

IMO, a lot of these memorials were established as a veiled ode to white supremacy...Nathan Bedford Forrest, in particular. Edmund Pettus is another. The movement to rename the Pettus bridge, by the way, predates Charleston.

I don't mind renaming streets, though I think it should be given some thought.

If one can provide evidence that they truly are veiled odes to white supremacy, then I would be willing to reconsider. But I fear the evidence for this is going to be tepid at best. As I pointed out earlier, Nathan Bedford Forrest was a complex figure, a great general, (though probably a war criminal), and the organization he started was not representative of the modern KKK.

Honestly, these are backyard issues. Most of the people commenting here are not dealing with this in their area. It's not fun.

 

[Poncho]

How long before we start removing white southern men? they might have to go too.....

 

[Jayrok]

How long before we start removing white southern men? they might have to go too.....

Hey, slow down there, Poncho.

 

[jon_mx]

So Hillary's confederate flag problem will doom her?

 

[The Commish]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

I linked one of the memorials here in Charlotte as well. It's been here since the early 1900s and to my knowledge it's never been up for removal prior to the last couple weeks.

 

[The Commish]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I think it's worth discussing. I can't find the article now, but someone posted something a while back on the sheer number of Confederate memorials throughout the south - there are far more memorials (including streets named after generals) to the confederacy than there are of the American Revolution, or any other war. Would it kill us to pare back a bit?

IMO, a lot of these memorials were established as a veiled ode to white supremacy...Nathan Bedford Forrest, in particular. Edmund Pettus is another. The movement to rename the Pettus bridge, by the way, predates Charleston.

ETA: changing the names of parks/bridges/streets is not the same as trying to forget or erase history...this is simply choosing to no longer honor a past we, collectively, don't want to honor any more.

I'd probably agree with this if these streets/memorials/monuments etc were constantly in discussion to be removed, but the reality is, they haven't been. The faux outrage is on the move and a force to be reckoned with

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I hear they're digging up Nathan Bedford Forrest now.

Maybe they're going to bury him on some slippery slope?

At least discussing it. He and his wife.

Deborah Helms, who is 65, black and was born within “spitting distance” of Health Sciences Park, formerly Forrest Park, said the council was moving Forrest and his statue for the wrong reason, because of his affiliation with racism. But Forrest was an example of someone changing their ways, she said, and quoted a biography of Forrest written by Jack Hurst that said he repudiated the KKK and worked to dismantle it after having served as its first grand wizard.

“He was trying to build a bridge across a chasm of blood,” she said.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I'm putting everything up for removal, including this thread.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

People that Believe that the Confederate flag isnt a racial issue are O.K.K.K in my book

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

People that Believe that the Confederate flag isnt a racial issue are O.K.K.K in my book

Strange where these things show up.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-hung-from-regiment-memorial/bLFrtGsKCLAEpFFDBsX0DK/story.html

 

[BustedKnuckles]

People that Believe that the Confederate flag isnt a racial issue are O.K.K.K in my book

Strange where these things show up.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-hung-from-regiment-memorial/bLFrtGsKCLAEpFFDBsX0DK/story.html

it wasnt me .........

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I'm fine with it. If we're talking about memorials that just serve as a historical marker that something big went down in this spot 150 years ago, then that's fine. If it's a celebration of the confederacy and honors the people who led a traitorous, racist separatist movement, the tearing it down is fine with me.

It's like the idea that we keep Auchwitz open as a reminder and museum, not as something that testifies to to the valor and honorable nature of Nazi soldiers.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I'm fine with it. If we're talking about memorials that just serve as a historical marker that something big went down in this spot 150 years ago, then that's fine. If it's a celebration of the confederacy and honors the people who led a traitorous, racist separatist movement, the tearing it down is fine with me.

It's like the idea that we keep Auchwitz open as a reminder and museum, not as something that testifies to to the valor and honorable nature of Nazi soldiers.

:gutposting:

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Future showings of The Dukes of Hazzard should only be allowed if they blur out the flag on the General Lee and replace it with a happy face.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

I'm fine with it. If we're talking about memorials that just serve as a historical marker that something big went down in this spot 150 years ago, then that's fine. If it's a celebration of the confederacy and honors the people who led a traitorous, racist separatist movement, the tearing it down is fine with me.

It's like the idea that we keep Auchwitz open as a reminder and museum, not as something that testifies to to the valor and honorable nature of Nazi soldiers.

Just to be clear.... the nazi party was eradicated, right? I don't want to get into a historical comparison of the parties or their philosophies, for a lot of reasons, but here the party was allowed to reassimilate. No? Are we taking down the party responsible for the hateful ideology as well now? Just checking.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Who are these people calling for the removal of Confederate memorials? Are any African-American leaders asking for this? I've never heard this demand.

I was all for removing the flag from government buildings. But Confederate memorials are a part of our history. As someone who is fascinated by the Civil War, even the idea of removing them really offends me.

How about the idea of digging up their remains (and the remains of their spouse) and moving those? Oh, and moving a statue.

It's despicable to me. Somewhat like the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in Afghanistan.

They have already removed a Confederate memorial from a park in downtown Birmingham,or at least have already decided it too has to go. Don't know if they have started yet.

Is there anybody here that approves of this?

Me. Why do we pay tribute to traitors on American soil?