What is Obama's signature achievement as president? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

That is pretty revisionistic.  No one thought we had a 35-0 lead during the 69's, 70's or 80's except for maybe Reagan.  All those same historian experts were mocking Reagan for wanting to drive a nail into the coffin if the Soviet Empire.   The experts wanted to negotiate a tie and thought Reagan was a loon for even thinking the Soviet Empire would collapse if pushed.  Then when it did collapse, the experts then said it was inevitable.     We will never know for sure any alternative outcome had Reagan not been Presudent, but Reagan was one of the few people who predicted the Soviet crash and put a lot of effort in assisting it. 

You're confusing the fall of the Soviet Union with winning the Cold War. You're not the only one; lots of people do. Ronald Reagan predicted the fall of the Soviet Union and played a part in assisting that fall, as did Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, Lech Walesa, and, interestingly enough, George Soros. All of them deserve credit for this, Reagan no less than the others. 

But the Cold War was won long before the Soviet Union fell. 

 

[The General]

You're right about everything but the patriotism.  That is genuine.

I'd say the majority of politicians and Americans are patriotic I don't believe one party owns that.

 

[The General]

I give both of them credit for what they did.  Reagan implemented policies which enables businesses to grow and helped pave the way for decades of future growth.  Obama put some money in the pockets of the average American and created many temporary jobs thru his infrastructure spending. But to suggest he somehow did something which saved the country from some Great Depression is wrong.  Obama eased the pain but did nothing that fundamentally changed the economy.  Has he worked with the GOP more and focused even a bit on private sector job growth, it could have been a more effective stimulus.    

I'll agree that one of Obama's shortcomings was his ability to maneuver with the republicans. They had no interest in working with him but he had all the leverage early on and I do think he could have been more effective.

 

[jon_mx]

You're confusing the fall of the Soviet Union with winning the Cold War. You're not the only one; lots of people do. Ronald Reagan predicted the fall of the Soviet Union and played a part in assisting that fall, as did Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, Lech Walesa, and, interestingly enough, George Soros. All of them deserve credit for this, Reagan no less than the others. 

But the Cold War was won long before the Soviet Union fell. 

Without the collapse and the improved relations which developed between Reagan and Gorby, we are still in the Cold War.    George Soros predicts everything to fall and he makes huge profit if it does, but he misses a lot too.  The Pope and Thatcher were close allies to Reagan and shared a lot of his views.    I am not sure about what they predicted.  But they were clearly supportive of Reagan and fighting what the Soviet Union was. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Which of those items would you deem significant?

I'd say his greatest achievement was helping pull us back from the brink of depression while simultaneously promulgating significant environmental and financial market protections. That's a remarkable balancing act.

Seems like looking for single action with a catch my name, like a New Deal or something. I'd point to Obamacare on that I guess, but I think eventually Obamacares legacy will be paving the way to a single payer system. Massive overhaul in one swoop is just not how governing works any more, not in the era of hyper-partisanship.  It's a long slog on every front that requires hard work and attention to detail while also paying attention to the big picture. Obama was mostly a success doing that.

He was also mostly a success in foreign affairs and national security IMO, when you look at where we are now compared to where we were in 2008. But that's a different conversation.

 

[AAABatteries]

Both sides want to crush free speech (on the other side) and use the power of the government to force people (on the other side) to do what they want.

This is a pretty decent description right now with the caveat that one side is lead by an incompetent lunatic.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'd go with:  

Killing Bin Laden

Obamacare

First Black President

 

[The Dude]

Public health care is always Obamas achievement even if repealed and replaced.  The truth is the GOP would rather not have a health care program at all - and Obama has forced their hand.

 

[NREC34]

I give both of them credit for what they did.  Reagan implemented policies which enables businesses to grow and helped pave the way for decades of future growth.  Obama put some money in the pockets of the average American and created many temporary jobs thru his infrastructure spending. But to suggest he somehow did something which saved the country from some Great Depression is wrong.  Obama eased the pain but did nothing that fundamentally changed the economy.  Has he worked with the GOP more and focused even a bit on private sector job growth, it could have been a more effective stimulus.    

Exactly. The GOP wanted to work with him for 8 years but he wouldn't budge. 

 

[MarvinTScamper]

In simplistic terms, my view, which is not revisionist but based on a majority of respected historians, is that Harry Truman essentially won the Cold War.

You seem to be well read, if anything.  Your view on their views is really unimportant.   Thanks for telling me which actual author you believe had it right.  But  I actually appreciate the posters in those threads pointing me towards actual authors. 

 

[MarvinTScamper]

This is a pretty decent description right now with the caveat that one side is lead by an incompetent lunatic.

And the others best candidate couldn't beat him, despite a massive lead.  She was the Falcons, mid 3rd q

 

[rockaction]

And the others best candidate couldn't beat him, despite a massive lead.  She was the Falcons, mid 3rd q

She never even had that kind of lead. Ever.

 

[MarvinTScamper]

She never even had that kind of lead. Ever.

I disagree.  It's not worth arguing over.  She was terrible, he is terrible.  He won. 

 

[jon_mx]

Exactly. The GOP wanted to work with him for 8 years but he wouldn't budge. 

No, but Obama did burn those bridges the first two years.  Not that the GOP weren't arses also, but when Obama knew he did not need them he crapped all over them and never tried to make amends until late in his last term of office.  I know the libs like to make it a one-way street, but the lockouts, the offhanded comments about riding in the back seat, wadding up their stimulus suggestions and throwing them in the trash and telling them elections have consequences did not set the right tone.  Any honest assessment would acknowledge major faults on both sides instead of being stuck in the blame game where only the other side is at fault.  That was not even close to the case.  But continue with your one-sided world view.  

 

[squistion]

I give both of them credit for what they did.  Reagan implemented policies which enables businesses to grow and helped pave the way for decades of future growth.  Obama put some money in the pockets of the average American and created many temporary jobs thru his infrastructure spending. But to suggest he somehow did something which saved the country from some Great Depression is wrong.  Obama eased the pain but did nothing that fundamentally changed the economy.  Has he worked with the GOP more and focused even a bit on private sector job growth, it could have been a more effective stimulus.    

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-blocks-60-billion-infrastructure-plan/2011/11/03/gIQACXjajM_story.html?utm_term=.670c117bfd6b

Senate blocks $60 billion infrastructure plan, another part of Obama jobs bill

By Rosalind S. Helderman  November 3, 2011

The Senate shot down another piece of President Obama’s $447 billion jobs bill Thursday, as a stalemated Congress goes through the motions of attempting legislation to spur economic growth largely as a mechanism to allow each party to blame the other for the failure to act.

The chamber failed to advance a measure to spend $50 billion on highway, rail, transit and airport improvements and another $10 billion as seed money for an infrastructure bank designed to spark private investment in construction. The vote was 51 to 49 in favor, but the measure needed 60 votes to proceed to a full debate.

 

[timschochet]

Without the collapse and the improved relations which developed between Reagan and Gorby, we are still in the Cold War.    George Soros predicts everything to fall and he makes huge profit if it does, but he misses a lot too.  The Pope and Thatcher were close allies to Reagan and shared a lot of his views.    I am not sure about what they predicted.  But they were clearly supportive of Reagan and fighting what the Soviet Union was. 

Sorry, guess what I wrote was confusing, I meant that Thatcher, the Pope, Walesa and Soros aided in the fall of the Soviet Union, not that they predicted it. 

 

[jon_mx]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-blocks-60-billion-infrastructure-plan/2011/11/03/gIQACXjajM_story.html?utm_term=.670c117bfd6b

Senate blocks $60 billion infrastructure plan, another part of Obama jobs bill

By Rosalind S. Helderman  November 3, 2011

The Senate shot down another piece of President Obama’s $447 billion jobs bill Thursday, as a stalemated Congress goes through the motions of attempting legislation to spur economic growth largely as a mechanism to allow each party to blame the other for the failure to act.

The chamber failed to advance a measure to spend $50 billion on highway, rail, transit and airport improvements and another $10 billion as seed money for an infrastructure bank designed to spark private investment in construction. The vote was 51 to 49 in favor, but the measure needed 60 votes to proceed to a full debate.

While I appreciate your ability to cut and paste, it really had little to do with what my point was.  In fact it supports what I said.  Obama kept focusing on infrastructure and green energy as the main means of stimulus while ignoring any suggesting from the GOP.  

 

[The General]

While I appreciate your ability to cut and paste, it really had little to do with what my point was.  In fact it supports what I said.  Obama kept focusing on infrastructure and green energy as the main means of stimulus while ignoring any suggesting from the GOP.  

Obama could have promised congressional handjobs and a personal unicorn to McConnell and he would have said no. 

It was on Obama to force it down their throats and he couldn't figure out how to get it done.

 

[timschochet]

You seem to be well read, if anything.  Your view on their views is really unimportant.   Thanks for telling me which actual author you believe had it right.  But  I actually appreciate the posters in those threads pointing me towards actual authors. 

This is an odd response. But I cite every author I quote. 

For the record, though, my views on Truman are heavily shaped by William Manchester, David McCullough, James T. Patterson, and a professor I had in college named Danziger. 

 

[jon_mx]

Sorry, guess what I wrote was confusing, I meant that Thatcher, the Pope, Walesa and Soros aided in the fall of the Soviet Union, not that they predicted it. 

There is no denying the Pope's role in solidarity and what happened in Poland.  That was a huge first step and helped bring Gorby to power.  The Soviet Union probably remains a iron-fisted regime without the Pope.  I see the fall of the Soviet Union as initiated by the Pope, most of the heavy work done by Gorby with a push from Reagan.  There were others who deserve honorable mention, but those were the big three.  

 

[timschochet]

There is no denying the Pope's role in solidarity and what happened in Poland.  That was a huge first step and helped bring Gorby to power.  The Soviet Union probably remains a iron-fisted regime without the Pope.  I see the fall of the Soviet Union as initiated by the Pope, most of the heavy work done by Gorby with a push from Reagan.  There were others who deserve honorable mention, but those were the big three.  

Gorbachev had no intent to bring down the USSR; quite the opposite, he wanted to save it. That's why I didn't mention him. 

 

[jon_mx]

Obama could have promised congressional handjobs and a personal unicorn to McConnell and he would have said no. 

It was on Obama to force it down their throats and he couldn't figure out how to get it done.

You down play what an arrogant #### Obama was the first two years.  McConnell and the GOP were crapped upon several times early on which helped setup the stonewall the GOP put on once they did regain control of the House.  Obama never tried to send an Olive branch to undo the harm, and both sides dug in.  

 

[jon_mx]

Gorbachev had no intent to bring down the USSR; quite the opposite, he wanted to save it. That's why I didn't mention him. 

No, but the only way to keep the Soviet Union together was by strong military intervention which Gorby opposed.  That helped enable the rebellion against the Soviets.   It was not his intent, but it allowed it to happen.  

 

[lardonastick]

You down play what an arrogant #### Obama was the first two years.  McConnell and the GOP were crapped upon several times early on which helped setup the stonewall the GOP put on once they did regain control of the House.  Obama never tried to send an Olive branch to undo the harm, and both sides dug in.  

So they got their feelings hurt and decided not to do their job?

 

[timschochet]

Anyhow, I think Obama's signature achievement is Obamacare, and specifically, the ability of people with pre-existing conditions to be charged the same as everyone else. I don't believe that, in the end, the Republicans are going to be able to get rid of this. And it's completely changed the entire conversation about healthcare in this country and will likely force us into single payer eventually. 

 

[badmojo1006]

You down play what an arrogant #### Obama was the first two years.  McConnell and the GOP were crapped upon several times early on which helped setup the stonewall the GOP put on once they did regain control of the House.  Obama never tried to send an Olive branch to undo the harm, and both sides dug in.  

I do not remember Obama being this way. Show me something

 

[timschochet]

So they got their feelings hurt and decided not to do their job?

This is the problem with jon's analysis. He's right; Obama did behave with some hubris ala Woodrow Wilson. But senators are supposed to do what's right for the country. 

This is why I have argued in the Trump thread that Schumer, Pelosi and co. should try to work with Trump when they can and not pursue a scorched earth policy; they should not follow McConnell's example. Unfortunately it looks like they're going to. 

 

[jon_mx]

This is the problem with jon's analysis. He's right; Obama did behave with some hubris ala Woodrow Wilson. But senators are supposed to do what's right for the country. 

This is why I have argued in the Trump thread that Schumer, Pelosi and co. should try to work with Trump when they can and not pursue a scorched earth policy; they should not follow McConnell's example. Unfortunately it looks like they're going to. 

My analysis correctly assigns appropriate blame to each side.  The GOP and Obama clashed and no one ever tried to make up.  

 

[The General]

You down play what an arrogant #### Obama was the first two years.  McConnell and the GOP were crapped upon several times early on which helped setup the stonewall the GOP put on once they did regain control of the House.  Obama never tried to send an Olive branch to undo the harm, and both sides dug in.  

Awww. He was arrogant so they didn't work with him  

They had guys on their side yelling at him during the State of the Union. The current dickbag you guys picked (a very mild mannered, modest, and grounded individual) spent years investigating to prove he wasn't American.

I put it on Obama to not figure out a way how to get more through but don't act like the inbreed McConnell etc were ever at any moment going to give an inch on anything. No olive branch other than letting Mitch write the laws himself was going to get him on board with anything Obama wanted.

 

[Heavy]

But the Cold War was won long before the Soviet Union fell. 

Heavy (and Higgs), the issue of what Presidents played a role in winning the Cold War, and how they won it, is a long and complicated one, and I hope you guys will join my discussion in the Soviet Union thread when the time comes and offer your POV (but not Bill O'Reilly's POV, OK Higgs?  ) 

In simplistic terms, my view, which is not revisionist but based on a majority of respected historians, is that Harry Truman essentially won the Cold War. If it were a football game, Truman was the quarterback in the 1st quarter and led the USA to a 35-0 lead. After that all of the Presidents from Eisenhower to Reagan essentially held the lead. Sometimes the Sovietd cut it to 3 touchdowns, sometimes to 2 touchdowns, but that's as close as they got and after Truman's performance the outcome was never truly in doubt. 

Tim,

Thanks for the invite.  Looking forward to it. 

As I previously stated, the collapse of Soviet Communism was inevitable in hindsight.  However, our foreign policy of Containment led to two wars (Korea and  Viet Nam) and multiple covert support operations (most notably 80's Afghanistan).  I don't think anyone thought the Cold War was won after Truman left office in '53.  Our foreign policy certainly didn't reflect that.  Truman laid the groundwork, but the main characters of the 80's (Pope, Thatcher, Gorbachev, and Reagan) made it happen.

I guess it is a point of debate to say exactly when the Cold War ended since it wasn't really a war and no formal peace process was enacted.  I'd argue the fall of the Berlin Wall in '89 or the dissolution of the Soviet Union in '91 are the two most prominent dates to choose. I choose the latter, since it really was the final nail in the coffin.

I agree with you that a lot of players helped cause the fall.  A lion's share of the credit should go to Gorby for letting the Soviet Bloc dissolve peacefully.  That was the first big crack in the dam.  

Also, I will try to let this thread stay on its original path and will no longer comment on the Cold War...

 

[squistion]

This is the problem with jon's analysis. He's right; Obama did behave with some hubris ala Woodrow Wilson. But senators are supposed to do what's right for the country. 

This is why I have argued in the Trump thread that Schumer, Pelosi and co. should try to work with Trump when they can and not pursue a scorched earth policy; they should not follow McConnell's example. Unfortunately it looks like they're going to. 

Tim, there is no upside for Democrats to play nice and work with Trump/GOP. If they do, Trump will take credit and will brag that he was able to accomplish what Obama couldn't, completely ignoring 8 years of GOP obstruction. In addition, if Democrats retake White House in 2020, unless they pick up some senate seats, they will be facing the same obstruction from McConnell (he won't turn over a new leaf).

 

[timschochet]

Tim, there is no upside for Democrats to play nice and work with Trump/GOP. If they do, Trump will take credit and will brag that he was able to accomplish what Obama couldn't, completely ignoring 8 years of GOP obstruction. In addition, if Democrats retake White House in 2020, unless they pick up some senate seats, they will be facing the same obstruction from McConnell (he won't turn over a new leaf).

See, you're looking at this the same way McConnell did in 2009. I don't care who takes credit. I don't care if Trump "wins". The question should be is it good for the country and that should be the ONLY question. That's why they're there. 

 

[rockaction]

Checking back in today. 

It's still the PPACA. 

 

[ren hoek]

Being the ultimate corporate tool murderer sellout to end all corporate tool murderer sellouts 

Here's an interesting rundown from a sub for black women:

alwaysdrinkwater 11 points 5 months ago
Hey ladies, there are a ton of links in this, (really sorry in advance if it's too cumbersome. I've never posted before so I'm not exactly sure about the etiquette :/ )

How do y'all feel?

My (very) personal opinion: I generally had largely positive feelings about Obama but the main turning points for me were:

• At an African Union meeting, he essentially told African leaders/people to grow up and stop "blaming" colonialism and Western oppression for its problems. - (being Kenyan, I found this particularly egregious).
  
• Some of his comments on BLM activists, "they can't just keep yelling"
  
• What I perceive to be a generally scolding tone when he talks to Black America
  
• His lack of actually using the words "White supremacy" (since his election as president).
  
• His record-breaking mass deportation numbers
  
• Bombing/currently bombed 7 countries (that are predominantly Muslim)
  
• Record breaking arms deals to foreign governments (including dictatorships and governments that systematically abuse human rights, e.g. Israel and Saudi Arabia) (I find this particularly salient given BLM's platform highlighting the liberation of Palestinians.)
  
• His silence (indifference?) to #NODAPL
  
• Prosecution of more whistleblowers than any other president in American history
  

There was a really interesting twitter thread on this if any of you would want to check it out - https://twitter.com/alwaystheself/status/799618478856687616

 

[DocHolliday]

Nobel Peace Prize

That has to count for something. 

 

[Higgs]

Nobel Peace Prize

That has to count for something. 

It counts for highlighting what a joke the award has become.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960

 

[Higgs]

Checking back in today. 

It's still the PPACA. 

I heard a rumor my boy was stirring up trouble in here las night.  

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Nobel Peace Prize

That has to count for something. 

What a joke that was.  

Norwegians picking peace prizes is a joke anyway.  The only reason they can act as pacifists and come across somewhat neutral is because they control land that no other country wants.

 

[rockaction]

It counts for highlighting what a joke the award has become.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960

I think Bob Dylan highlighted it better.

In all seriousness, that award -- and I stress I think President Obama was a good President, executive orders and ISIS aside -- was a joke, and was simply the awarding committee's rebuke of Operation: Enduring Freedom and President Bush, who I also think inherited a terrible situation. 

Hegemonies often inherent terrible situations. It's what they do.  

 

[Higgs]

I think Bob Dylan highlighted it better.

In all seriousness, that award -- and I stress I think President Obama was a good President, executive orders and ISIS aside -- was a joke, and was simply the awarding committee's rebuke of Operation: Enduring Freedom and President Bush, who I also think inherited a terrible situation. 

Hegemonies often inherent terrible situations. It's what they do.  

Thoughts on W as Pres?  Tough to have 9/11 happen in your first year, but you have to say he really screwed the pooch, right?

 

[The General]

Being the ultimate corporate tool murderer sellout to end all corporate tool murderer sellouts 

Here's an interesting rundown from a sub for black women:

alwaysdrinkwater 11 points 5 months ago
Hey ladies, there are a ton of links in this, (really sorry in advance if it's too cumbersome. I've never posted before so I'm not exactly sure about the etiquette :/ )

How do y'all feel?

My (very) personal opinion: I generally had largely positive feelings about Obama but the main turning points for me were:

• At an African Union meeting, he essentially told African leaders/people to grow up and stop "blaming" colonialism and Western oppression for its problems. - (being Kenyan, I found this particularly egregious).
  
• Some of his comments on BLM activists, "they can't just keep yelling"
  
• What I perceive to be a generally scolding tone when he talks to Black America
  
• His lack of actually using the words "White supremacy" (since his election as president).
  
• His record-breaking mass deportation numbers
  
• Bombing/currently bombed 7 countries (that are predominantly Muslim)
  
• Record breaking arms deals to foreign governments (including dictatorships and governments that systematically abuse human rights, e.g. Israel and Saudi Arabia) (I find this particularly salient given BLM's platform highlighting the liberation of Palestinians.)
  
• His silence (indifference?) to #NODAPL
  
• Prosecution of more whistleblowers than any other president in American history
  

There was a really interesting twitter thread on this if any of you would want to check it out - https://twitter.com/alwaystheself/status/799618478856687616

This doesn't jibe with the line of thought he was  a racebaiting weanie that I read in here all that time.

 

[MarvinTScamper]

This is an odd response. But I cite every author I quote. 

For the record, though, my views on Truman are heavily shaped by William Manchester, David McCullough, James T. Patterson, and a professor I had in college named Danziger. 

I wasn't accusing you of not quoting them.    Acting like you came up with something new 50-60 years later because you read some books is peculiar to me. That's all. 

 

[rockaction]

I thought President George W. Bush was below average, but okay given what he inherited and the advisors he chose. I'm a bit of a sucker for Wilsonian freedom internationally, I'll admit it, so I sympathize with him. But he picked the wrong country to invade and the financial collapse of '06-'07 happened on his watch, so he'll never go down in history as a great President. But I waver on him. I think the largest attack on American soil in about fifty years during your first year of your Presidency hurts and determines your legacy. 

But here's where I get out of my league. I don't know if you've ever read tim's thread, but Yankee23Fan puts me to shame when it comes to knowledge of the executive and the criteria for determining a good President, or VP.  There's a love for history in those countdowns he did that are palpable.  

 

[rockaction]

Synthesis is an art all unto itself. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yankee23Fan

Some of the best stuff in the FFA.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Screw it, I don't care.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My (very) personal opinion: I generally had largely positive feelings about Obama but the main turning points for me were:

Lol is this a trick post to make conservatives reconsider Obama?

 

[jon_mx]

First thing Obama did was reach out to the Republicans, educate yourself son.

Exactly.  He reach out by #### canning their list of suggestions for the stimulus and told them elections have consequences.  He locked them out of discussions on health care reform.  He told the GOP they could come along for the ride, but they would have to ride in the back.   Theses were the first interaction.   Exactly which one of those ####### moves did you consider reaching out?  

 

[rockaction]

I remember both jon_mx's points and the NYT's points about obstructionism. 

He really did say things like "elections have consequences," "I won," etc. Normally, presidents speak with more diplomacy and at least present the illusion of bipartisanship so he can pick off five-ten vulnerable senators and a bunch in the House. He totally locked them out of health care and then pointed at Romney for installing the same plan at a state level. 

Then, the Republicans obstructed. 

Who's right? Depends on your political belief. 

What happened to your post, FUJB? Just had it with the whole thing? Don't blame you.  

 

[IC FBGCav]

I remember both jon_mx's points and the NYT's points about obstructionism. 

He really did say things like "elections have consequences," "I won," etc. Normally, presidents speak with more diplomacy and at least present the illusion of bipartisanship so he can pick off five-ten vulnerable senators and a bunch in the House. He totally locked them out of health care and then pointed at Romney for installing the same plan at a state level. 

Then, the Republicans obstructed. 

Who's right? Depends on your political belief. 

What happened to your post, FUJB? Just had it with the whole thing? Don't blame you.  

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/world/americas/24iht-obama.4.18116853.html

Just for you.