mambomambo
Footballguy
Have not had a chance to watch the game yet, but for those of you who have, was he double teamed? TJ had a good game...Was Palmer looking his way a lot??
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What is up with Ocho Cinco? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mambomambo
- Start date
Everclear333
Footballguy
It looked to me that they had safety help on CJ all day.
EBF
Footballguy
Yea, I'm sure those six straight 1150+ yard seasons were just dumb luck.
Johnny Ice
Footballguy
No one was good on that team until today. Housh finally broke out, Palmer still didn't have big numbers. The jury is still out on CJ.
Zow
Footballguy
I watched today's game and the glaring difference to me seemed to be the routes - CJ usually extends the field whereas Housh runs the shorter, simpler routes. Pretty much every look to CJ requires a deep, tough throw as required by the play's design. Palmer has no time and therefore cannot make these throws.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
i never saw him double teamed. i never saw him get more than a step on any CB at any point. i don't recall him ever being open, so he was blanketed on the few times that palmer threw it his way.obviously, i can't speak for the rest of the season, but for today, ocho was the 3rd best bengal WR on the field and it wasn't that close. housh was housh and chatman was electric at times.ocho was just a guy for today.
EBF
Footballguy
:myth:He was extremely consistent during his first few seasons.
Zaxxon
Footballguy
I'm 3-0 in my 1999 league. Got Faulk and Warner in the first 2 rounds.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
The Cinny offense is beginning to get it together... Palmer is finding Housh & the slot guy. Ocho will get his soon, I'm playing him next week... so I bet he goes off.valhallan said:
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
CJ does have a bad shoulder which may hurt him some, but if you look at the games, the guy always is double teamed. Housh gets to run freely and Chad has coverage help all day long.
The guy is clearly one of the best WR's in football and it is without debate among NFL members. if you are in a dynasty league get him while his value is low; in fact he is worthy in a redraft league as well if the price is right.
The guy is clearly one of the best WR's in football and it is without debate among NFL members. if you are in a dynasty league get him while his value is low; in fact he is worthy in a redraft league as well if the price is right.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
So far, two posters have claimed that CJ was consistently double-teamed and one poster claims there were no double-teams.Can you guys get the story straight, or do I have to watch NFL replay to find out?
blackjack23
Footballguy
As a former owner, I know how you feel but I wouldnt say he sucks. I just wont ever own him again.tomarken said:
BuckeyeArt
Footballguy
I watched the game Sunday and one of the announcers made a comment that made some sense. Early in the game, on one of Palmer's sacks, they commented Johnson was wide open but Palmer was too busy trying to avoid the sack to be able to throw to him. They said since Johnson's routes tend to be a little longer, Palmer just isn't getting the time to target him. They never showed Johnson on that play so I don't know if he really was that wide open. The comment seemed to make some sense though.
As far as if he is getting doubled, I don't remember them ever showing that or making that comment. But you sure saw a lot of replays of Palmer getting sacked.
As far as if he is getting doubled, I don't remember them ever showing that or making that comment. But you sure saw a lot of replays of Palmer getting sacked.
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
sholditch
Footballguy
Seriously, for once can we substitute reliable info for acrimony?
Phurfur
Footballguy
OK I will disagree with this, he is not even the best WR on his team. I do not associate CJ with clutch catches for clutch wins but massive stats in blow out games. If I were an NFL owner I would not even want him on my team.
EBF
Footballguy
Let's look at the "inconsistent" Chad Johnson:2005
- Played in 16 games
- Had 50 or more receiving yards in 15 games
- Had 100+ yards and/or a TD catch in 8 games
- Had 5 or more catches in 12 games
2004
- Played in 16 games
- Had 50 or more receiving yards in 12 games
- Had 100+ yards and/or a TD catch in 7 games
- Had 5 or more catches in 12 games
2003
- Played in 16 games
- Had 50 or more receiving yards in 14 games
- Had 100+ yards and/or a TD catch in 9 games
- Had 5 or more catches in 10 games
So over a three year span:
- 85% chance of 50 yards or more
- 50% chance of 100+ yards and/or a TD
- 71% chance of 5 or more catches
His production has become more sporadic in recent years (probably due to Housh and Henry) and he's having a horrible 2008 season, but he's perfectly capable of being very consistent. He's going to be a huge value play this offseason if he continues to struggle and animosity towards him continues to grow. His shoulder will heal, he'll be traded to a new team, and he'll have a renaissance in 2009.
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gman8343
What would Lemmy do?
All true, and CJ could be a great buy low in dynasty leagues, but the fact is he hasn't been consistant. In years. Three years ago yes, but not since then has he been reliable as a weekly starter. Now if he's playing for a new team next year everything could change, but at this moment, would you feel comfortable with him as your #1 WR? He's been billed as a #1 for the last three years and while his overall numbers are very good, he disappears in many games.
Ocho is getting pressed pretty hard at the line with safety help over the top. So yes he is getting double teamed, but they aren't really moving him around...so he's a little easier to defend.
Due to the amount of pressure the Giants wanted to bring, they did not double TJ.
Most teams will double them both, but that will end in week 5.
You don't want to leave a 3rd corner/safety on Chris Henry.
Due to the amount of pressure the Giants wanted to bring, they did not double TJ.
Most teams will double them both, but that will end in week 5.
You don't want to leave a 3rd corner/safety on Chris Henry.
EBF
Footballguy
I think the entire Bengals offense is a mystery at this point. Would I feel comfortable with Chad as my WR1? Absolutely not. I have him in one PPR redraft league and I benched him this past week for Eddie Royal and Chris Johnson. At this point he's very low on the todem pole behind guys like Lee Evans and Derrick Mason. Hell, I might even play Vincent Jackson over him. He's garbage this year and I don't know if we can expect that to change. Sometimes the most reliable players in the league have a bad season. The important thing is to recognize that (despite what clueless internet pundits say), he's one of the most talented receivers in the league and talent doesn't disappear over night. I went out and bought Santana Moss in a bunch of my leagues this year because it became clear to me that the public had forgotten about his talent after a couple down years. They did the same thing with Randy Moss, Terry Glenn, and Joey Galloway. Right now they're doing it with Chad Johnson. He has a down year, it becomes fashionable to rip him, and suddenly everyone thinks he's garbage.
In 2009 Chad Johnson will be 31 years old and healthy with a chip on his shoulder. He's actually a strong "buy" candidate in dynasty leagues now that the bottom has fallen out of his value. Barring complete psychological breakdown, he'll be back.
MAC_32
Footballguy
-Cincy's oline play has been embarrassing
-Housh tends to run the short, intermediate routes
-Ocho tends to run deeper routes
-When the oline has protected Carson he's still gotten rid of the ball too quickly (read, throws to the short, intermediate routes - not necessarily always Housh either) too frequently because he expects the oline to not protect him...when he does hold onto the ball to let the play develop he looks very uncomfortable and often bails and begins scramble mode long before the pocket has collapsed
-I think the shoulder's giving Ocho problems, saw a lot of bump n run on him each of the last two weeks and he hasn't broken into his routes as quickly/smoothly as before
-I did not see constant double teams throughout but there were times that he was
Normally I'm quick to laugh at Ocho owners frustrated with his week to week inconsistency, but I'm beginning to think he may be in for a long year. I'd stay patient for one more week, he's had three tough defenses three consecutive weeks - lets see how he does against a weak pass D before we write him off.
-Housh tends to run the short, intermediate routes
-Ocho tends to run deeper routes
-When the oline has protected Carson he's still gotten rid of the ball too quickly (read, throws to the short, intermediate routes - not necessarily always Housh either) too frequently because he expects the oline to not protect him...when he does hold onto the ball to let the play develop he looks very uncomfortable and often bails and begins scramble mode long before the pocket has collapsed
-I think the shoulder's giving Ocho problems, saw a lot of bump n run on him each of the last two weeks and he hasn't broken into his routes as quickly/smoothly as before
-I did not see constant double teams throughout but there were times that he was
Normally I'm quick to laugh at Ocho owners frustrated with his week to week inconsistency, but I'm beginning to think he may be in for a long year. I'd stay patient for one more week, he's had three tough defenses three consecutive weeks - lets see how he does against a weak pass D before we write him off.
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
Good stuff here pulling these stats together, but is 50 yards really the low-end benchmark you want to be using for what was a mid/low end #1 fantasy WR to determine "consistency"? If my #1 gets 50 yds on the day I'm pretty pi**ed if it doesn't come with a TD. I'm just ballparking, but I would think % of 75+yds would be better. I'd like to see those numbers. (And I don't know, maybe CJ was extremely consistent at 75+ yds too).
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Scoring ranges for Johnson since becoming a starter in 2002:
Grouped by 0-5 points, more than 5 but less than 10 points, more than 10 but less than 20 points, and 20+ points.
2002: 2,3,8,0
2003: 2,5,8,1
2004: 3,6,5,2
2005: 1,6,8,1
2006: 4,6,4,2
2007: 1,9,3,3
2008: 3,0,0,0
I think it would be a riot if the Bengals management issued Johnson a new number, making his name totally pointless.
Grouped by 0-5 points, more than 5 but less than 10 points, more than 10 but less than 20 points, and 20+ points.
2002: 2,3,8,0
2003: 2,5,8,1
2004: 3,6,5,2
2005: 1,6,8,1
2006: 4,6,4,2
2007: 1,9,3,3
2008: 3,0,0,0
I think it would be a riot if the Bengals management issued Johnson a new number, making his name totally pointless.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
You should watch the game. When the Giants blitzed Chad is not double teamed (although sometimes he still was). I am not sure if people understand what a double team is? When you are at the goal line you will see two guys very close, but in most situations a double team is when coverage is shifted in the guys direction to stop him from going to a certain area. It is designed to take away certain plays (usually most plays). Even so there are different types of double team coverages.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
You can deny it all you want, but the it is true. Not only can you tell this by the coverage defenses use on players (think about Housh running free with nobody on him while Chad is taking two guys deep all day long to open it up), but... This sounds bogus, but I will say it anyway...I am friends with a writer and he asked Bill Belichik who the best receiver in the league is and he (and another DC) said that "CJ is the best receiver in the league, if you leave him in single coverage he will absolutely destroy you." They didn't name anyone else... I will ask the writer if I can use his name just so you don't think I am making it up. If BB says it I believe he is at least a top 5.
WiDDoW_MaKeR
Footballguy
CJ being double teamed is no excuse. I saw plenty of plays were Chad wasn't double teamed, and simply couldn't get serperation... and I saw plenty of plays, including the touchdown catch were Housh was double teamed and made the tough play. That's the difference between the two. Chad is all about the big play, and the big plays don't have time to develope with this offensive line. Housh is willing to do all of the dirty work, and work across the middle for the tough catches, and yards.
I find it difficult to tell who is able to get separation and who isn't on TV. This is because the camera follows the ball. During the routes, the screen is on the OL/QB. Once in the air, the TV follows the ball to the intended receiver. If the guy I'm following isn't the intended receiver or in the area, then I have no idea what kind of separation the guy is getting.
How are you all able to take such strong stances when the coverage and/or receiver in question isn't in view of the camera?
How are you all able to take such strong stances when the coverage and/or receiver in question isn't in view of the camera?
Jeremy
Footballguy
While Bill Belichick is the very personification of honesty and integrity, I'm going to need a little more...
WiDDoW_MaKeR
Footballguy
Uhmmm.... because I was there?
Why is this a question? Are you asking me if you were there or not? How the hell would I know? I don't even know you.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Since becoming a starter, in 0 PPR leagues Jonhson has scored 10 or more points 45 times in 99 games played.Random sampling of other WRs:Larry Fitzgerald 32 times in 63 games played.T.O. 55 times in 84 games since 2002.Burress 42 times in 93 games since 2002.
Touche`But I still think 50+ yards is meaningless.
WiDDoW_MaKeR
Footballguy
Exactly... which is why you shouldn't assume that I am talking about watching the game on TV. It is called "sarcasm". Hell... even the times that Chad was thrown to... you could see that he had someone right with him. His route running has gone SOUTH in a hurry. He used to be a great route runner... but he just doesn't put in the effort in it anymore. Either that, or the defenders simply know what he has, and are too prepared for everything that he does. In that case... his only chace is his deep routes, and Palmer doesn't have enough time to wait for a deep route to develope so far.
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for everyone who thinks CJ is so inconsistent, go check the game logs of other prominent WRs over the same span of his career. johnson has a very similar set as a guy like holt or fitz or wayne. who exactly do you people think is SO consistent? TO fits the bill, i will give you that, but if you look at 10+ pt games, non-PPR, i could not find anyone who blew CJ away. its the nature of the position, its just when johnson goes off, he goes OFF!
i will happily eat crow if anyone can find a stable of WRs that do in fact put ocho to shame, but i think this is largely a myth.
i will happily eat crow if anyone can find a stable of WRs that do in fact put ocho to shame, but i think this is largely a myth.
LordHusker
Hot sauce addict
I'm going to start him this week. He's due. Sometimes fantasy football is all about the gut.
I'm starting him. I don't believe players are "due". He just has a great matchup.
"He's due" is the only FF logic that gives "Take away the one long play..." a run for his money in ineptitude. I bet "all about the gut" is up there somewhere too.
