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When your season ends due to other owners not paying attention (1 Viewer)

JohnnyU

Footballguy
Everyone has a smartphone, so no excuses.  If you don’t want to play until the end of the season then don’t play.  I hate players that don’t pay attention to their team, whether in contention or not.  Yes, I said hate.

 

Gally

Footballguy
then don't complain when things like what happened in this thread happen....not saying you did....but if it happens in your league and you aren't actively advocating for the "all play" format....you kinda need to shut your pie hole....you would think the purpose is to see who is really the best owner in the league....all play does that.....the old school head to head, just doesn't.....if it's "casual" then there shouldn't be any complaining about things like this....you can't have your cake and eat it too....
You can advocate for every owner paying attention and doing their best to play a competitive team and not want all play.  They really have nothing to do with each other.  Even in an all play format you should want every owner to pay attention and play their best otherwise what's the point.

 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Everyone has a smartphone, so no excuses.  If you don’t want to play until the end of the season then don’t play.  I hate players that don’t pay attention to their team, whether in contention or not.  Yes, I said hate.
One of the most freeing experiences was the day I could log in from my phone to set my line ups on Sundays when I am running about or a Thursday night where I forgot about the game and won't even be home near a computer for a while, so easy to just go in thru the apps. I like RTSports one, fairly simple, few things on the computer are easier to navigate but it does exactly what I need it for. 

Some guys have a fear they will press a wrong button or just cannot get used to having to type and use the small keyboards/pads. 

 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Yes. It’s more about owners fielding deadbeat lineups. Starting Henderson when it’s known for day he’s out with COVID. Starting Ridley when it’s known he didn’t even make the trip and was declared out 
Can't you just get these guys back on the golf course next week? Shank a drive off the tee or mess up a putt and cost them $500 before they could blink?

Maybe they were just busy monitoring the new NFTs in their portfolios. 

 

phandango

Footballguy
I run an IDP league. A team in playoff contention set his lineup Sunday morning without subbing out bye-week and injured players. We have a weird tiebreaker system where, if this team won, he would beat out two other superior teams for the final playoff spot. I was rooting for him to lose. I checked the score late in Monday night's game, and he was still behind by about 3.5 points. He has Aaron Donald. On the last play of the game, Donald recorded a pointless sack of Murray. It was worth 5 points. The guy made the playoffs on the last play of the regular season. 

 

Desert_Power

Footballguy
Yep, this cost me a spot in one league (yet I won one years earlier because of it) and is causing a complete blowup in another.

 

TheWinz

Footballguy
I run an IDP league. A team in playoff contention set his lineup Sunday morning without subbing out bye-week and injured players. We have a weird tiebreaker system where, if this team won, he would beat out two other superior teams for the final playoff spot. I was rooting for him to lose. I checked the score late in Monday night's game, and he was still behind by about 3.5 points. He has Aaron Donald. On the last play of the game, Donald recorded a pointless sack of Murray. It was worth 5 points. The guy made the playoffs on the last play of the regular season. 
I have never played IDP, but I have won a game when my opponent's QB took a knee to end the game.

 

Army Eye

Footballguy
Deadbeat players are a problem for sure.   But all this stuff about people notifying owners to advise them on their lineup, or ideas on software that auto-adjusts their lineup?  To me, those are even worse.  Am I a crazy purist that I just think people should be running their own teams without outside help?  Throw the deadbeat players out of the league, don't bend over backwards to accommodate them, that's my take anyway

 

PantherThunder

Footballguy
One thing we implemented a few years ago is a contingent starter, so people don't have to be glued to the internet just before kickoff- send out an email saying if so and so doesn't play (has to officially be inactive), start so and so in their place. Of course, that still requires a little effort, but at least they can send that email out at any point during the week.
I have been trying to get something like this going in my leagues. Especially with Thursday games, Sunday morning/afternoon/night - Monday night.  If this guy doesn’t play Monday night - my Thursday night guy will be my starter. Not sure why no one likes that idea. Even if it was a 3 times a year thing 

 

JohnnyU

Footballguy
Deadbeat players are a problem for sure.   But all this stuff about people notifying owners to advise them on their lineup, or ideas on software that auto-adjusts their lineup?  To me, those are even worse.  Am I a crazy purist that I just think people should be running their own teams without outside help?  Throw the deadbeat players out of the league, don't bend over backwards to accommodate them, that's my take anyway
If a person is playing someone I need for them to beat and has two players on a bye in their lineup, you betcha Im going to email him / her.

 
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Gally

Footballguy
I have been trying to get something like this going in my leagues. Especially with Thursday games, Sunday morning/afternoon/night - Monday night.  If this guy doesn’t play Monday night - my Thursday night guy will be my starter. Not sure why no one likes that idea. Even if it was a 3 times a year thing 
This is a lot more work than taking the 2 minutes to peruse the inactive list and make sure non of your guys are on it.  

 

wildwombat

Footballguy
Dealing with a bit of this in my league and have been for years.  I think 15 years ago we introduced a system where the 1st, 2nd and 3rd highest scores for the week win $20, $10 and $5 and the 3 lowest scores for the week lose the equivalent.  Yeah, not high stakes, but still the idea was to keep people interested in putting up a fight.

It doesn't work as well as we had hoped.  Late in the year, the teams that are out of the running don't seem to care enough.

I think, and have thought for many, many years, that the only solution to this is to do with away with head-to-head matchups.  Truly let the best teams into the playoffs, which (imho) are the teams with the most points scored on the season.

I am pretty confident that we will move that way this year, despite the "romance" of head to head matchups.  It is unfair to have one team's fate depend on some other lazy and uninterested owner taking the time to pay attention.

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
If a person is playing someone I need for them to beat and has two players on a bye in their lineup, you betcha Im going to email him / her.
I go back and forth on this one....part of me says take care of your own business and don't count/depend on needing somebody else to help you....kind of like in real football....put yourself in position to where you don't need "help"...

I think once owners start becoming the roster/lineup police it ventures into a grey area....especially if it is not being done all year....

maybe a heads up to the commish and have the commish send out a blanket statement reminder to all owners or something...

picking and choosing when you want to be lineup police feels lame and kinda weak to me...feels yucky

 

Zow

Footballguy
Judge Smails said:
2 examples this week.  Five 7-6 teams fighting for last 3 playoff spots.  One owner, who has a bye with a win, doesn't pay attention to Cook being active and named as the starter.  Several people texted him with Shefter tweets etc but he didn't answer until 2 minutes after kickoff. Too late.  He plays Mattison (2) and Sutton (0) with Cook's 38 points on the bench.  He loses - would have won with Cook's points.  Cost him the bye and me the last playoff spot.  Pissed off.  Not only do we play for rings and pride but there is decent money here - first place is 5-6K. And my team is on fire right now - great chance I would have won it all.

The other guy has Henderson still in his lineup even though he was ruled out with COVID.  I mean, it's said in big red letters "IR" next to his name on our site the last 2 days.  He could have picked up any COVID replacement (no other healthy RBs on his bench) but still hasn't as of tonight.  So his only option is to choose from the MNF game vs the entire slate of games he had.

It's happened all year.  Another guy played Ridley even though he didn't make the trip for the game and was ruled out.  Just careless

Sort of done with owners not paying attention.  I'm commish next year and it will be a $100 fine every time this happens. I know it's only FF and everyone is busy but c'mon.  It doesn't affect just you - it affects the whole league.
The bold is distinguishing here for me. Be really, really hard to enforce some sort of rule and/or punishment when he was incentivized to win. While I sympathize with your plight, this isn't the situation that would get me riled up as, in theory, maybe he thought Cook wasn't 100% or whatever. Guys should be allowed to manage their teams. 

In other words, I see this as being way different than some last place guy starting three players on IR or whatever. 

 

Zow

Footballguy
I go back and forth on this one....part of me says take care of your own business and don't count/depend on needing somebody else to help you....kind of like in real football....put yourself in position to where you don't need "help"...

I think once owners start becoming the roster/lineup police it ventures into a grey area....especially if it is not being done all year....

maybe a heads up to the commish and have the commish send out a blanket statement reminder to all owners or something...

picking and choosing when you want to be lineup police feels lame and kinda weak to me...feels yucky
Yep. I had this debate two weekends ago. In a friendly league for not huge money, one of my buddy's was playing the other and I had hoped he would win. I saw before kickoff he was starting an injured player. Debated texting him, but something felt "yucky" about it. 

 

Gally

Footballguy
I think, and have thought for many, many years, that the only solution to this is to do with away with head-to-head matchups.  Truly let the best teams into the playoffs, which (imho) are the teams with the most points scored on the season.

I am pretty confident that we will move that way this year, despite the "romance" of head to head matchups.  It is unfair to have one team's fate depend on some other lazy and uninterested owner taking the time to pay attention.
There are many leagues that do the best of both worlds.  Have the top 3 records get into the playoffs and the the top 3 highest cumulative scorers that aren't those top 3 teams by record.  There is no reason to do away with H2H to accomplish this.  

Also, one game does not make a season.  It's not down to the "unfair to have one teams fate depend on some other lazy owner" at all.  It seems that way because it's in the forefront but that team had other chances to get wins or whatever as the season goes along.  Bottom line is that one game in and of itself was not make or break.  There were 12-14 other weeks that also mattered.  

 

TheWinz

Footballguy
Here's an idea - let's say it's a friendly league with $100 entry fee.  Make every owner put $1,000,000 into a pot, and if you ever start a player who was known to be inactive a minimum of 90 minutes prior to their kickoff, your money goes to the league champ.  If you never start an inactive player, you get your $1M back after the season.  I bet you $1M no one would ever start a dead guy.

 

wildwombat

Footballguy
There are many leagues that do the best of both worlds.  Have the top 3 records get into the playoffs and the the top 3 highest cumulative scorers that aren't those top 3 teams by record.  There is no reason to do away with H2H to accomplish this.  

Also, one game does not make a season.  It's not down to the "unfair to have one teams fate depend on some other lazy owner" at all.  It seems that way because it's in the forefront but that team had other chances to get wins or whatever as the season goes along.  Bottom line is that one game in and of itself was not make or break.  There were 12-14 other weeks that also mattered.  
Yeah.  Ten team league.  Many years ago I tried to get the league to go for playoff spots decided completely by points on the year.  We had some folks threatening to quit, so I proposed that we go with record for the top two seeds, points for the third and fourth.  It has worked really well, except for two times, including this year when the 5th place team outscored the number two team by 51 points on the year.  All due to random matchups.  Yeah, my compromise solution was pretty good, but still it sucks to be the guy on the short end of the stick.

 I simply disagree that week to week matchups should matter.  But there are people in my league (all friends) that think the "Action" of playing another team is what it is all about.

There is no easy answer.

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
Yeah.  Ten team league.  Many years ago I tried to get the league to go for playoff spots decided completely by points on the year.  We had some folks threatening to quit, so I proposed that we go with record for the top two seeds, points for the third and fourth.  It has worked really well, except for two times, including this year when the 5th place team outscored the number two team by 51 points on the year.  All due to random matchups.  Yeah, my compromise solution was pretty good, but still it sucks to be the guy on the short end of the stick.

 I simply disagree that week to week matchups should matter.  But there are people in my league (all friends) that think the "Action" of playing another team is what it is all about.

There is no easy answer.
12 team league....3 divisions....we do 3 divisions winners get in and then the next three best "all play" records....best of "both worlds"....damn near perfect if you ask me....keeps weekly HTH important but also allows the truly best owners a shot come playoff time...one year had a 5-9 team that just ran into some sucky HTH matchups each week, but would have beat almost everybody else those weeks.....he got in because of his "all play" record and ended up winning the whole thing....which he deserved...

we seeded the 1-6 playoff teams by their "all play" record as well....

seriously thinking about going straight "all play" next year with no divisions...."all play" is the holy grail when it comes to actually rewarding the best teams each week...(once you get over the old school want to beat my buddy/rival only each week)....in fact "all play" lets you try to beat your buddy/rival EVERY week......

 
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Gally

Footballguy
All play is too much like roto style baseball.  It's not as much fun to me because it's sensory overload.  You are playing against every player so there is no respite.  H2H matchups are easier to follow and more enjoyable to me.

To each there own and if you like it do it.  I just wouldn't want to be in a league that was only all play (and I have been in it before.  It wasn't fun week to week).

ETA:  one or two bad weeks early and you are basically out of it going 1-10 or 0-11.  Very hard to come back from.

 
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Steve Tasker

Footballguy
In one league, a team that never made a single lineup change all season (no bye week or injury changes) just lost a tie-breaker for the last playoff spot. So think about that when you consider how many hours you put into this game. 🙂
I did this once.  I had joined a league as a last-resort fill player, since a couple of the guys knew I played FF.  I didn't know most of the people in the league.  Low money league, we're talking like $20/team.  I participated in the draft and then proceeded to basically forget about the team for the entirety of the season.  Didn't make a single waiver move or any lineups.

Ended up sneaking into the playoffs as the last seed, and went up agains the top seed, the commissioner - one of my best friends.  I swore I was gonna actually set a lineup that week, promptly forgot, and beat him anyway.  Lost in the semis.  Felt pretty bad about it and quit the league after the season.  Dude was super pissed at me.  It was a sign that FF was no longer for me, and I quit shortly thereafter.

Years later, I was in his wedding and he's still one of my best friends.  At least once a year I'll remind him of that FF playoff matchup.  Still pisses him off but at least we now have a laugh about it, like 14 years after the fact.

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
Gally said:
All play is too much like roto style baseball.  It's not as much fun to me because it's sensory overload.  You are playing against every player so there is no respite.  H2H matchups are easier to follow and more enjoyable to me.

To each there own and if you like it do it.  I just wouldn't want to be in a league that was only all play (and I have been in it before.  It wasn't fun week to week).

ETA:  one or two bad weeks early and you are basically out of it going 1-10 or 0-11.  Very hard to come back from.
on the playing against every player part....thats one of the best parts about it....it shows you the fruits and also the spoils of the results of your biggest day of the year (your draft)....as well as instant acknowledgement of your moves throughout the season...

and on your last ETA comment.....that couldn't be any further from the truth.....a couple bad weeks doesn't sink you....probably not actually as much as in straight HTH...(straight HTH you could technically be the highest scoring team in the league by the end of the season but have zero wins)...

 
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BigJim®

Footballguy
wildwombat said:
I am pretty confident that we will move that way this year, despite the "romance" of head to head matchups.  It is unfair to have one team's fate depend on some other lazy and uninterested owner taking the time to pay attention.
I mean, to each his own but I don't consider H2H matchups a 'romance' thing. Arbitrariness, fortune and even, yes, misfortune are core to what makes FF appeal to me. You strip that out and turn it into a mechanical thing where you face no opponents, that wouldn't suit me at all.  

 

TheWinz

Footballguy
I mean, to each his own but I don't consider H2H matchups a 'romance' thing. Arbitrariness, fortune and even, yes, misfortune are core to what makes FF appeal to me. You strip that out and turn it into a mechanical thing where you face no opponents, that wouldn't suit me at all.  
How great is it to have the 2nd lowest score and win?  Tons
How brutal is it to have the 2nd highest score and lose?  Tons
In both cases, it's fun to talk about with your league mates.  It's part of the appeal of FF.
 

 

BigJim®

Footballguy
How great is it to have the 2nd lowest score and win?  Tons
How brutal is it to have the 2nd highest score and lose?  Tons
In both cases, it's fun to talk about with your league mates.  It's part of the appeal of FF.
 
^ This guy gets it.

 

Tom Hagen

Footballguy
I think it's very difficult to make hard and fast rules on some of this stuff. Earlier this year the team running away with my league played a kicker on his bye week because his roster was loaded and he didn't want to drop a good player (including his current kicker who was the leading scorer at the time).

No one in the league cared because it made sense.

 

Gally

Footballguy
on the playing against every player part....thats one of the best parts about it....it shows you the fruits and also the spoils of the results of your biggest day of the year (your draft)....as well as instant acknowledgement of your moves throughout the season...

and on your last ETA comment.....that couldn't be any further from the truth.....a couple bad weeks doesn't sink you....probably not actually as much as in straight HTH...(straight HTH you could technically be the highest scoring team in the league by the end of the season but have zero wins)...
I completely disagree on the bolded.  When you are playing against every team every week that means 90% of the scoring is against you.  It is daunting and demoralizing even if you are having a good week.  We can agree to disagree on this point because I just don't see it your way.  Neither of us are wrong.  Just personal preference.

As for the couple bad weeks sinking you in an all play league, that has been my experience in the few times I have played it.  A couple teams start out 1-21 or 2-20 and it was near impossible for them to climb back into it.  Where I have seen teams start out 0-2 or 1-4 plenty of times and easily get into the playoffs.  I am sure some of that is sample size because I have played a lot more H2H leagues than All play but nonetheless it has been my experience.  

 

zamboni

Footballguy
I mean, to each his own but I don't consider H2H matchups a 'romance' thing. Arbitrariness, fortune and even, yes, misfortune are core to what makes FF appeal to me. You strip that out and turn it into a mechanical thing where you face no opponents, that wouldn't suit me at all.  
We’re in a total points league, which we like because it rewards full season performance more so than randomness. And a hot team at the end won’t win if they weren’t strong early on. We still have HTH, but doesn’t factor a lot  in overall scoring.

 

Gally

Footballguy
In my highest dollar leagues we don't have playoffs.  We play the full season and best record (total points tie breaker) wins the title.  We pay down 5 places (14 teams).   We also have bonuses for highest scoring team eliminated from a money spot for the last four weeks of the season.   This has done a  decent job of giving incentive not to play crappy lineups.  

 

wlwiles

Footballguy
I'm in an IDP redraft league where several owners at various times will purposefully leave a lineup hole.  We play with QWWWRRTFKD and then 5 IDP slots, with only a 5 man bench and no IR spots.  Do you drop the top DB on his bye, or drop someone like Devonta Smith instead?  Do you take a 0 at kicker one week so you can fill out all 3 WR and 1 Flex spots?  It can lead to some beneficial trades, or FAAB savers can land someone like Montgomery. 

To us, in this format, it's part of the strategy.  If you're team is stacked and you dont want to drop anyone then you gamble on your guys being enough to overcome a zero at your DL slot for the week...so just because someone doesn't fill out a full lineup doesn't automatically mean tanking. 

 

Gally

Footballguy
I'm in an IDP redraft league where several owners at various times will purposefully leave a lineup hole.  We play with QWWWRRTFKD and then 5 IDP slots, with only a 5 man bench and no IR spots.  Do you drop the top DB on his bye, or drop someone like Devonta Smith instead?  Do you take a 0 at kicker one week so you can fill out all 3 WR and 1 Flex spots?  It can lead to some beneficial trades, or FAAB savers can land someone like Montgomery. 

To us, in this format, it's part of the strategy.  If you're team is stacked and you dont want to drop anyone then you gamble on your guys being enough to overcome a zero at your DL slot for the week...so just because someone doesn't fill out a full lineup doesn't automatically mean tanking. 
But this is an owner looking at all the scenarios and deciding that having a lineup hole is his best opportunity for his strongest team and best chance to win overall.  That is different than a guy not paying attention and leaving a bye player or injured player in because he doesn't care.  

 

wlwiles

Footballguy
But this is an owner looking at all the scenarios and deciding that having a lineup hole is his best opportunity for his strongest team and best chance to win overall.  That is different than a guy not paying attention and leaving a bye player or injured player in because he doesn't care.  
Absolutely.  The league is kind of designed this way - every week there's likely to be someone with a lineup hole.  It's part of the strategy, do you try and scrape a full lineup together for as many players starting as possible, or gamble with a hole or two to keep your bench intact.  

My main point was just saying that just because someone has a lineup hole or starts a bye week player doesn't automatically mean they're tanking, or should be penalized (as long as there's no specific league rule on it).  Sometimes it's a strategic move made in good faith...no one size fits all

 

Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
what it comes down to is that many people are scared of all play because it doesn't allow them to get the lucky win when they have a terrible week but get to play that one team or so that had a worse week.....(they got that dub baby!!)

all play doesn't let you hide behind that, it exposes you for how good your team really is every week against your competition.....good players probably love it, not so good players probably hate it cause it eliminates the lucky matchup factor....

 
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Stinkin Ref

IBL Representative
I completely disagree on the bolded.  When you are playing against every team every week that means 90% of the scoring is against you.  It is daunting and demoralizing even if you are having a good week.  We can agree to disagree on this point because I just don't see it your way.  Neither of us are wrong.  Just personal preference.

As for the couple bad weeks sinking you in an all play league, that has been my experience in the few times I have played it.  A couple teams start out 1-21 or 2-20 and it was near impossible for them to climb back into it.  Where I have seen teams start out 0-2 or 1-4 plenty of times and easily get into the playoffs.  I am sure some of that is sample size because I have played a lot more H2H leagues than All play but nonetheless it has been my experience.  
 that 90% is split up on 11 other teams....and its not really even that much when you factor in that bench players aren't counting towards a score.....(basically playing against 11 QB's TE, PK, DST and then a combination usually of 72 RB's WR's)....

I have never found it to be "daunting" or demoralizing"....if you are having a good week it shows in how many wins you get that week....good weeks and bad weeks are all rewarded the same....if you are looking to try and secure those somewhat "lucky wins" when you have a bad week but still get a dub.....then yeah all play is definitely not for you....(not you in particular, those in general)...

 
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Tom Hagen

Footballguy
We’re in a total points league, which we like because it rewards full season performance more so than randomness. And a hot team at the end won’t win if they weren’t strong early on. We still have HTH, but doesn’t factor a lot  in overall scoring.
This is pretty much what we do.  There is a total points winner and a head to head winner.  Often they are the same but not always.  Money is probably about 65/35 in favor of total points winner.

 

kyoun1e

Footballguy
In one league I have long proposed a scoring system where you'd get two scores each week:

1) A head to head score, and

2) A score for facing every other team in the league

So say you have the highest score in the league that week but you LOSE your head to head matchup, you'd get the following scores:

1) Zero for the head to head loss + 2) 0.80 since you would have beaten 8 of the other 10 teams.  Total score of 0.80 even though you lost your H2H matchup.

Best of both worlds.

I simulated it for all of last season and it totally wrung out a lot of the BS crying about "I am one of the best teams but everyone has their best game against me" crap.

Unfortunately, it never passes (because those that are inactive and asleep at the wheel don't give a damn). I don't even know how the above could be executed on a platform.

 

belljr

Footballguy
I made the playoffs and started 2 guys that ended up not playing, got the W and the 5 seed 

How about that!#!#!#

I was in the middle of driving a 22ft moving truck somewhere in Maryland on i-95......... How's that for an excuse

 
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JohnnyU

Footballguy
I made the playoffs and started 2 guys that ended up not playing, got the W and the 5 seed 

How about that!#!#!#
I'm sure you have a smartphone, so why weren't you on top of it?  It only takes a minute to correct it.  I don't know many situations where I don't have a minute.

 
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JohnnyU

Footballguy
See my edit...

I was in the middle of driving a 22ft moving truck somewhere in Maryland on i-95......... How's that for an excuse 
I lived in Columbia, MD and traveled to Atlantic City on I95 a lot, so I understand that.  It's controlled madness.

 
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belljr

Footballguy
on the playing against every player part....thats one of the best parts about it....it shows you the fruits and also the spoils of the results of your biggest day of the year (your draft)....as well as instant acknowledgement of your moves throughout the season...

and on your last ETA comment.....that couldn't be any further from the truth.....a couple bad weeks doesn't sink you....probably not actually as much as in straight HTH...(straight HTH you could technically be the highest scoring team in the league by the end of the season but have zero wins)...
I liked all-play in my auction league when we did it. 

 

JohnnyU

Footballguy
Drove from Tampa to NJ Saturday and Sunday... It was the suck
The cool thing about i-95 is that even though the flow is 80mph, most know how to drive.  It's when you see someone driving 55 that can cause an accident.  Like I said, controlled madness.  As long as everyone is flowing like they should there isn't a problem.  

 

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