Wk 11 this year Antonio Brown and Beckam were on bye, if you had both whatever team played you that week hit the jackpot as far as matchup luck. In H2H your opponent would get a huge benefit merely because they happened to play you the week your (more than likely) best 2 players were on bye. Total points is the way to go.
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Which tie breaker is better, H2H or total points? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter degenerate
- Start date
grateful zed
Footballguy
Jack White
Footballguy
This argument falls flat for me.
You're not taking a zero at WR because ODB or AB is on a bye week.
This is what depth is for.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Because in FF you have absolutely ZERO control over what your opponent does, unlike real football.
And in any single H2H matchup luck plays an enormous role.
If you want to reward good luck, stick with H2H as your tie-breaker. If you want to reward skill, go with points or all-play.
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Skoo
Footballguy
To me it comes down to this: Which is a better indicator of how a team did during the regular season?
So it's either how well that team played for one or two weeks against a particular team, or the entire season.
Total points is by far the best indicator of which teams are the best. The only reason most fantasy leagues do H2H isntead of total points is that it would be a lot less fun on a weekly basis.
So it's either how well that team played for one or two weeks against a particular team, or the entire season.
Total points is by far the best indicator of which teams are the best. The only reason most fantasy leagues do H2H isntead of total points is that it would be a lot less fun on a weekly basis.
bostonfred
Footballguy
There's skill in deciding whether to make a roster move because you've got an important match up. Having to choose between maximizing points for the rest of the season or having good line ups every week or prioritizing division match ups, especially during the bye weeks. More decisions, more skill.
The General
Footballguy
If the tiebreaker is head to head instead of points and you play that team early on and only once how would you know it's an important match up?
grateful zed
Footballguy
every matchup is sacred.
The General
Footballguy
I'm not taking a zero, but I'm also not putting out my best team so if I lose that week it wasn't necessarily because I played a better team, it could be because I wasn't playing my starting roster. Total points is a better indicator of how your team performed relative to everyone else instead of a random week somewhere in the season.
bostonfred
Footballguy
It's a fair question. In the league i have that uses head to head, we give the division winners a first round bye and the 2 team tiebreaker is head to head minimum two games. Otherwise we use victory points (all play rank plus total points rank.)What this means is that had to head usually only comes up for the final playoff spot or for the division title. So the most important games are the ones against your division rival, or your second game against someone behind you in points who has already beaten you once - or someone you're behind in total points who you've already beaten once.
I'm not saying sell the farm to win those games, but it definitely impacts late season trade decisions. I'm not rolling out a bad backup tight end in a big game unless I don't have the capital to get a better one, and even then I might swap my starter fit a similar player with a better bye.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Word of caution if you use head to head as a two team tiebreaker - set your rules in advance for what to do with multi way ties. Let's say the top six teams make v the playoffs and teams five six and seven are all tied at 7-6. First break the 3 way tie. Team five - the team with the best power rank or most points or whatever - obviously gets in.
But now what happens with the remaining two teams if team six scored more points, but team seven swept the heads up matchup? Both teams can argue that they made the playoffs if your rules aren't clear.
We use the same rule the nfl does - we break the 3 easy tie for fifth place, then deal with the two way tie for sixth place. So the heads up sweep wins, not the guy with the second best 3 way tiebreaker. But every time I bring it up it still turns into an argument because people forget. So write it down now before it comes up if you haven't already.
The more you know
But now what happens with the remaining two teams if team six scored more points, but team seven swept the heads up matchup? Both teams can argue that they made the playoffs if your rules aren't clear.
We use the same rule the nfl does - we break the 3 easy tie for fifth place, then deal with the two way tie for sixth place. So the heads up sweep wins, not the guy with the second best 3 way tiebreaker. But every time I bring it up it still turns into an argument because people forget. So write it down now before it comes up if you haven't already.
The more you know
FBGs does in its staff dynasty leagues. They use H2H as the second tiebreaker, too. I'm not a fan of either.
Can't believe this needs a poll, or that ANYONE would vote for H2H as a tiebreaker.
It's crazy that I should outscore a team by 150 on the year, but lose a spot because I happened to face a lucky squad that caught me with my RB1 and 2 of my top 3 WR's on a bye.
I can live with divisional record as a tiebreak where you play every divisional opponent twice..but a single game teibreak is, and always has been, ridiculous for fantasy.
It's crazy that I should outscore a team by 150 on the year, but lose a spot because I happened to face a lucky squad that caught me with my RB1 and 2 of my top 3 WR's on a bye.
I can live with divisional record as a tiebreak where you play every divisional opponent twice..but a single game teibreak is, and always has been, ridiculous for fantasy.
H2H is a joke and makes no sense in FF. However, I suggested that for our CBS league that if people wanted to use H2H instead of total points that we use the Breakdown records that they provide. In this case it shows your record against each team for the entire year. I would not be opposed to using it as a tie breaker as I feel it is a better reflection of two teams over the period of a year. To base a tie breaker on one game is just silly.
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
We have 10 Teams, 2 5 Team Divisions. Below is our Tie Break criteria and it seems to work well........ Though I do not think we have ever had it come down to head to head and rarely does it even come down to Total points scored.
Standings
Sort Criteria #1: Overall Winning Percentage Standings
Sort Criteria #2: Divisional Winning Percentage Standings
Sort Criteria #3: Total Points Scored Standings
Sort Criteria #4: Head-To-Head Record Standings
Sort Criteria #5: Power Rank
Standings
Sort Criteria #1: Overall Winning Percentage Standings
Sort Criteria #2: Divisional Winning Percentage Standings
Sort Criteria #3: Total Points Scored Standings
Sort Criteria #4: Head-To-Head Record Standings
Sort Criteria #5: Power Rank
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fbelange
Footballguy
It happens. This year I have most total points and 2nd in points against. I am 5-7 and mathematically eliminated. It happens.... has nothing to do with receiving a participation trophy but it is very frustrating when this #### happens believe me.
I have actually abdicated playing each team every week and then taking the overall records for standings. If you use CBS (which we do), this is provided in the Breakdown standings. I truly believe it would provide the most balanced and fair reflection of a team over the course of the year.
belljr
Footballguy
Jack White
Footballguy
Yeah, I can't believe anyone would dare to disagree with you. The unmitigated gall of some people!
Jack White
Footballguy
Progressive democrat?
Fantasy football -- like life itself -- isn't always fair.
You guys who feel this way should just scrap H2H completely.
fbelange
Footballguy
I'd vote for that. It seems every year I have this happen to me.. I got lucky and won last year but its the same story. I do my homework and have a high-scoring team and constantly getting shafted.
For example, opponent has Rodgers and Rogers this week. I mean, I just cant escape. 20+ points with 0:00 on the clock in the 4th quarter
fbelange
Footballguy
Furthest thing from a progressive democrat here.
Just frustrating when you are on the other end of it. I am sorry you are 2nd to last and points and leading your division. Must feel good bro
The General
Footballguy
The great thing about fantasy football is you can adjust rules. If you want to have a tiebreaker to make the playoffs be some game in week 4 that's great.
If you want to make rules to try and reward teams that have performed better - which is a way better way to do it IMO - over the course of an entire season than you can do that as well.
This doesn't have to be so difficult.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Of course people use head to head. It's more fun for more people when there are higher consequences for division rivalries and more strategy. Total points is better for people who are just gambling with anonymous strangers, but it's not really fun.
Ed McCutcheon
Footballguy
I once went 0-26 in a league that has/had this exact format. As I said at the time, "It's a record that can only be matched, never beaten. And I was the first to do it." That and my team sucked, so....
Ummm....6 or 8 games for the tiebreak >>>>1 or 2 games. Obviously it only works inside the division. Any tiebreak based on a single game should be more than one level down in the tiebreaking procedure.
Byes have too large an effect on a single game. They are fair over the course of a season because every player has a by, every fantasy team has every player on a bye at some point. But in a single random game it is rarely even, making it a grossly unfair tiebreak. Might as well use a darn coin flip as the first tiebreak...it would be more fair!
I think we're talking past each other.bostonfred said:
I fully understand utilizing division records, or even H2H with TWO games played inside a division (a sweep takes it regardless of points or overall divisional record). That makes divisional games very valuable. The problem comes with determining wildcards from teams in other divisions...teams you've played only once on some random week.
A single H2H game as a first tiebreaker against a team in another division during a heavy bye week is an inherent unfairness that is wholly un-necessary. Rules should work to level a playing field, not add un-neceesary randomness
Neal Cassady
Footballguy
Played H2H for many years (since 1991) with the same guys and made much more than I lost. Switched over to total point league about 6 years ago. Make about the same but I sure as hell sleep better. H2H sucks.
degenerate
Footballguy
For the total point voters, I believe you miss the point and I would venture to guess many of you haven't played competitive sports:
Why would you even play H2H if you believe in that? You're going against someone each week not just collecting points. The "better" team is the one who wins in that moment of time, whether it's 1-0 or 150-149. In what world do you think scoring X amount of points against someone else means you're better than me? I don't give a fk how you did against team X. You play me when you play me and what you do at that point in time dictates who is better. Don't run away from this. Adapt to your environment. Plannning for byes, injuries, matchups, etc. is where the skill, uncertainty, and randomness lies in a H2H league. Those who can weave around these obstacles and still beat their opponents is a much better gauge on who the better performer is. Total points is just lazy. "That's why they play the game." If we have the same record and I beat you then I'm better period.
The Future Champs
Footballguy
Poll is flawed. Should include: "Total points for & total points against." Points against is always overlooked.
Personally, I think it's fun when tiebreakers are undecided all the way to the end of the season. When there's a race and everyone is unsure how it's going to wind up. Which is total points. When it gets to week 11 and it turns out all the tiebreakers were already decided two months ago, that's less fun for me. Less excitement. Less uncertainty. Less suspense.bostonfred said:
And it's not like I got extra fun out of that week 2 matchup to help make up for that, because I'm rarely thinking "man, I bet this matchup between a 1-0 and 0-1 team is going to wind up being double important when we both wind up 7-6 and vying for the same wildcard spot." The odds that any individual game is the one that winds up deciding tiebreakers- especially early in the year- are remote. And each game *already* matters in Head to Head. I don't need to make it extra super matter, (maybe, but probably not).
Just my experience.
The idea that the team that wins is always the better team is dubious even in actual sports where teams compete directly. Were the 9-7 1984 Pittsburgh Steelers better than the 15-1 1984 San Francisco 49ers because they happened to win their only matchup 20-17? Were the 4-12 2004 Miami Dolphins as good as the 14-2 2004 New England Patriots because they managed a split?
The worse team wins *all the time* in sports, where undefeated teams are rare. Hell, in baseball, winning 62% of your games means you're phenomenal. You can say "they were better that day", but what does that mean? "They were better that day" is just another way of saying "they won the game", so it's a tautology with no predictive, (and little descriptive), value.
And again, this is in sports where teams directly compete against each other. The 2004 New England Patriots had a chance to stop the 2004 Miami Dolphins from scoring points. I don't have a chance to do anything to Jim in accounting.
There's a guy in one of my leagues who I've outscored in 11 out of 12 weeks so far. So you're saying that if he faced an easy schedule and we happened to play each other in his one good week, that he'd be a better team? Whereas if the schedulemaker had set our matchup on literally any other week, I'd be the better team?
Head-to-Head is my favorite fantasy format. It's fun, it's exciting, it creates the most dramatic tension, it furnishes the most compelling storylines. What it doesn't do a very good job of is showing which team is "better". Which is fine. I don't need fantasy to be fair, I need it to be fun. Which is why I like head-to-head as a means of determining record but hate it as a means of determining tiebreaker. It locks the outcome early in the year. It eliminates the chase. It makes the playoff race less fun.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
We use both in my league. We're a 3 division 12 team league, scheduled to play 2 against everyone in your division. And the division games are first 3 and last 3, so no bye weeks during division games. 3 Division winners and next 3 best records make the playoffs.
Division winner tiebreak is H2H, division record, then total points.
Wildcard tiebreak is total points.
Seeding is record then total points.
Works for us.
Division winner tiebreak is H2H, division record, then total points.
Wildcard tiebreak is total points.
Seeding is record then total points.
Works for us.
The General
Footballguy
The bolded part was funny.This isn't a H2H matchup like in REAL sports. It is FANTASY sports. It's a lot closer to chess or D and D than it is to competitive sports.
I am not really "playing you" in anything. I am not defending you, guarding you, trying to stop you like I would if we are actually playing the REAL sport. I have no outcome on their performance. The strategy in fantasy sports lies in collecting points, not it anything remotely related to real athletics.
Your point that you don't care what a team did against another team will become pretty important in a H2H tiebreaker when we have split our series and the next tiebreaker is division record.
H2H is great for getting your record. First tie breaker use head to head matchup, sure I suppose. After that not a fan.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
H2H is more fun.
Total points is more fair.
I'm in leagues that do it both ways and don't have a problem with either. I'm not sure I can get on board with people that go nuts over making sure it's total points because a h2h tiebreaker would be unfair. If fairness was your primary concern, why are you playing in leagues other than roto-style, total points anyway?
Total points is more fair.
I'm in leagues that do it both ways and don't have a problem with either. I'm not sure I can get on board with people that go nuts over making sure it's total points because a h2h tiebreaker would be unfair. If fairness was your primary concern, why are you playing in leagues other than roto-style, total points anyway?
The General
Footballguy
This whole thing is about determining a tiebreaker for making the playoffs, right? Why is there the jump from having a tiebreaker be points to you must have the whole season by rotostyle?
H2H for the season record, tiebreaker points scored or some variation of "power ranking" that reflects performance for whole season.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
If you're playing in a H2H league in the first place, you've already made the decision that ultimate fairness is not the primary concern. To the flipside of your argument, why does it suddenly have to be "OMG IT HAS TO BE THE ABSOLUTE MOST FAIR WAY POSSIBLE" for this one specific thing?
I play in three leagues. Two use total points as the tiebreaker, one uses division record followed by H2H record. I am OK with both, but I will say that in the latter league it does make people get more excited about division games and matchups with their rivals than in the other leagues that use total points as a tiebreaker. Even if your team can't "get up" for a game like they might in real life, as an owner/fan you have more of a rooting interest that week. Sacrificing a bit of fairness for a bit of fun, no different than deciding to play a H2H league instead of a roto one in the first place.
zoonation
Footballguy
Your argument continues to fall down when the very real situation of the H2H game that decides the playoff spot is played in week 5 is considered. How is it more "fun" to decide the playoff team two and a half months later based on who won that game? Your argument that you somehow manage your team differently tomaccount for division games is also weak. What exactly do you do differently in your week 2 division game than you otherwise would?bostonfred said:
The fact is that total points identifies the better team. Fantasy football has a very large element of luck to begin with. To the extent that elements of that can be eliminated to identify the best players, that should be done imo.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's not about doing things differently, it's about having more of a rooting interest. This is especially true in a dynasty league or even a redraft league where you have the same owners/divisions each year and know generally who you're going to be competing with come playoff time.
This exact...literally to the letter, argument can also be used to say that you should play roto leagues instead of H2H leagues. So why do you play H2H?
The General
Footballguy
Aren't you trying to win every week regardless? Getting up for a division game is weird to me but whatever.It doesn't really matter whatever people want to do in their leagues is what is the point.
I was just responding to some line that only people who played sports would understand the importance of head to head matchups which sounded pretty ridiculous on our little fake football chat site.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Actually you quoted my post specifically, which mentioned nothing about real sports. But yes, I agree with you that the post about people who've played real sports was silly.
As to your first point, as I mentioned in my response to zoonation it's not about trying harder, it's about caring more. I think most of us are in multiple leagues where our rooting loyalties are split and spread out and difficult to keep track of. But when I'm playing against a division rival in a game where I know that winning will not only be important for the win, but also the tiebreaker I do pay extra attention to that game on Sunday, and feel better about the win or worse about the loss than I would otherwise.
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Madden Curse
Footballguy
There's enough randomness and luck in fantasy football already, and adding having something as arbitrary as H2H only rewards luck even more. I am strongly in favor of using overall points as the first tie-breaker after record. Overall points over the course of a season is one of the best and most clear ways to actually measure team strength and (assuming you have large lineups and flex slots) good coaching.
Nope...you've missed the point I think. The argument isn't about getting rid of H2H at all. You still collect a record based on H2H matches....each one of them is still important. The argument is about using a SINGLE H2H game as a TIEBREAKER.
Byes don't effect fantasy playoffs, but they do affect multiple games in the middle of the regular season, and those byes are not evenly distributed among fantasy teams, making random individual games inherently unfair. This evens out over the course of the season as regards to total record (which is still based on a collection of H2H matches), but is completely random in regards to a single given game.
Using H2H as a tiebreaker between two teams that met only once during the regular season, during bye weeks, is inherently unfair as it is 100% outside of the control of the players....there is not a single ounce of "skill" involved in having your opponents top QB and RB on a bye.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
H2H rewards the luckier team, total points rewards the better team.
Either is fine. Neither is better.
You have the choice to join a league or not.
Either is fine. Neither is better.
You have the choice to join a league or not.
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