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Who's better... Carson or Big Ben? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Funky_K
- Start date
couldn't agree more. Whos better? Give it time to develop. This season? Palmer, but Ben was hurt much of the year. In time, I think Ben will be, but I wouldn't put money on it.no bulletin board material from Ben.
Still, both of them are among the best young QBs in the game, this is just part of the beginning of a great rivalry.
Family Matters
Footballguy
This is a good post. I look forward to watching these two go at it for the next few years. They will keep the rivalry strong for years to come.Edit to add we should not compare these two on stats but rather how they lead their teams. Palmer is driving a Corvette. Ben is driving a Hummer. You won't be able to look at their personal stats and say one is better than the other. Doing that wouldn't be fair to Ben. OTH-look at the overall performance of the teams and how they run their offense and defense. How effective are they when asked to do what they do? That will be easier said then done but I can assure you it'll be fun to debate.couldn't agree more. Whos better? Give it time to develop. This season? Palmer, but Ben was hurt much of the year. In time, I think Ben will be, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Still, both of them are among the best young QBs in the game, this is just part of the beginning of a great rivalry.
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4 - Digit Shark
Footballguy
I'm not 100% sure, but I think that quote from Ben is wrong. I remember seeing an interview with Ben on the local news were he was taking blame for last year and explained how he was drained and what not, and they were asking him about Palmer's lack of playoff experience. I think he was saying in relation to how he did last year in his 1st playoff appearance, and that Palmer was a better QB then he was at the end of last year. So Palmer should handle it better then he did last year. I did not hear him say he is currently a better QB. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that's how the interview went.
GiantsRule
Footballguy
More prolific passer? PalmerMore clutch QB you want to win you the game if you needed a score in the last two minutes? Roethlisberger
4 - Digit Shark
Footballguy
Here's a LINK to an interview with Ben, where he says Palmers is a better QB then he WAS, not IS.
To get to the VIDEO, click the link, then go to the 3rd page of videos and click on the one with Ben's Pic in the upper right hand corner. I now that's long, but I don't know how to link it directly.
To get to the VIDEO, click the link, then go to the 3rd page of videos and click on the one with Ben's Pic in the upper right hand corner. I now that's long, but I don't know how to link it directly.
-OZ-
Footballguy
I'm a fan of the H2.This is a good post. I look forward to watching these two go at it for the next few years. They will keep the rivalry strong for years to come.Edit to add we should not compare these two on stats but rather how they lead their teams. Palmer is driving a Corvette. Ben is driving a Hummer. You won't be able to look at their personal stats and say one is better than the other. Doing that wouldn't be fair to Ben. OTH-look at the overall performance of the teams and how they run their offense and defense. How effective are they when asked to do what they do? That will be easier said then done but I can assure you it'll be fun to debate.couldn't agree more. Whos better? Give it time to develop. This season? Palmer, but Ben was hurt much of the year. In time, I think Ben will be, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Still, both of them are among the best young QBs in the game, this is just part of the beginning of a great rivalry.
You're right, the only stat that matters is wins, although if you did want to compare stats, Ben has a very slightly higher %, averages an additional 1.7 yards per attempt, and has the better career QB rating. He doesn't throw as many TDs or INTs.As you said, the difference is offensive scheme / philosophy. You could even argue that the rest of the offense is comparable. Ward/CJ, Rudi/Bus, Perry/Parker, even Housh/ARE - the Bengal WRs get the better stats, but you can't convince me they're overall better players (Ok, Perry > Parker - although that will be disagreed with).
This makes more sense.
Phlash
Footballguy
:X Talk about totally off base. Brady has ZERO running game, Peyton has a godly running game. Ben thrives because of his running game, and Carson is helped greatly by Rudi Johnson and Chris Perry.
Comparing the Palmer vs Ben argument with the Brady vs Peyton argument is comparing apples to oranges. BTW, Brady and Peyton are better than Palmer ever will be.
satch
Footballguy
Interesting, but innacurate. Brady has been asked to win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years and he's done it. We have to keep in mind where these players are in their respective careers. As years and opportunitites pass the measure of success changes.If Palmer continues to put up gaudy stats without winning a Super Bowl and Ben wins 2 Super Bowls in the meantime, I'd say Ben is better. As of this year, neither has won a SB and Palmer has become arguably the most prolific passer in the NFL whereas Ben just has to manage the game. How can Palmer not be considered better?
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Facenda's Voice
Footballguy
Carson - FantasyBig Ben - NFL for the Steeler SystemOverall - I like Palmer more. He's more like Peyton Manning
I agree that's the way to compare these QBs. I just wonder in 10 and 20 years from now, how they will rank when ESPN or a similar network has a "countdown the greatest QBs of this decade" type show? I think Big Ben will need a couple of Super Bowl wins to get the ranking in the future that Palmer might receive without them. I like Big Ben but I am agreeing the Pitt offensive scheme won't let him put up the numbers. Palmer might get acknowledged (like Marino) without winning a single Super Bowl. Big Ben could easily get those SB wins, too. Palmer could as well. It will be interesting.
Big Ben is to Palmer as Brady is to ManningPalmer willl almost certainly put up better stats, but Ben is a winner and very good NFL QB whose value to his team usually won't be fully appreciated by fantasy owners. Note: I'm not saying Ben will win 3 Super Bowls, but Aikman might be another good comparison in that the system he plays in won't ask him to put up huge numbers, but people around the league will still realize how critical he is to his team's success.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Jesus, can we let Roethlisberger win a championship before we start comparing him to Brady? Dude looked like a deer in headlights in the playoffs last year.Brady is still undefeated in the postseason (9-0 I believe). What's Roethlisberger's record, like 1-1? Besides, I think there's a lot of above-average to good quarterbacks that you could plug into the Steelers offensive system who would perform admirably. Charlie Batch and Tommy Maddox both totally suck.
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Family Matters
Footballguy
OZ-on this board if you use an analagy and put a name with it then you will be forever linked to saying they are 1 in the same. Happens all the time. Most any thread will provide examples of it.
ren hoek
Footballguy
You're making Ben out to have all those same intangibles and ability to win that Brady has. Roethlisberger has been atrocious in the playoffs, and his team seems to actually do better when they don't have to rely on him. I heard some statistic that said the Steelers are 12-0 with Roethlisberger when he doesn't have to throw more than 20 times, or something like that. Why give him so much credit for winning games with a great team that hardly even relies on him?That simply isn't the case with Manning, Brady, or Palmer- they all play in a balanced offense. I'll admit that I'm a Ben Hater, but the only thing he's convinced me of the last couple of years is that he's significantly better than Tommy Maddox and Charlie Batch.
edit: "but the arguments are similar now and will just get more so as they progress."
This is speculation at best, and right now, I'd say that the argument really isn't there at all.
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DropKick
Footballguy
In a fantasy draft, 99% of you take Palmer first. From an NFL perspective, it's too early to say. Palmer just had a Manning type season. Can he do it again? Will he recede?I think the body of work from Ben is still too small, based on his injury and the Steeler's offensive philosophy.Time will tell. Luckily, that time comes real soon as we see these guys play more in play-off situations. The fact that they're division rivals will make this a popular topic down the road.
ren hoek
Footballguy
This is all I've been trying to say. We can't really fairly evaluate either player, especially when so much of the win/loss argument is dependent on the teams they play on. The Steelers were fantastic across the board last year. I guess the only way to come to a consensus of who is a better QB would be to post up a poll asking which QB you would rather start your franchise with.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Brady wasn't asked to win a Super Bowl in '02? How about this year? Are they asking him to win one this year?
Family Matters
Footballguy
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Of course we'd take Palmer first in fantasy football. But what's done in fantasy football to be successful and what's done in the NFL have little in common to one another.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Regarding the quote, what's he supposed to say? That he's better than Carson? Not his style. Palmer is obviously the better fantasy choice, but I'd be hard pressed to decide which one I'd want if I were starting an NFL franchise tomorrow.After watching Ben for the past 2 years, there's little doubt in my mind that Ben could put up numbers like Palmer if he were playing in Cincinnati's style of offense. He threw the ball a LOT in college, and even though he hasn't been asked to do it much yet, he's got the talent to do it in the NFL, too. He's got the pocket presense, accuracy, arm strength, and ability to read defenses it takes to be a prolific passer. Just like Palmer has improved, Ben would be better at it today if he'd be asked to do it more, but unlike with Palmer on the Bengals, Ben hasn't had to on the Steelers. In the only game of his career so far that he's really thrown a LOT of passes, he went 29-41-386 with 3 TDs. He also threw 3 INTs, and part of that might be because he hasn't been asked to throw that many passes before. His performances in the playoffs last year were results of him being a worn out rookie QB. As an aside, if anyone thinks that Ward and Randle El are on the same level of talent as Chad Johnson and Houshmanzadeh, they're wrong. Chris Henry is a better NFL WR than Randle El is. Ward is a great NFL receiver not necessarily because of his stats, but because he is a tremendous blocker and leader on a team that values that contribution a lot. The talent at WR was a lot closer last year when Burress and Ward could be compared to CJ and Housh, but this year it's not even close.
Nihilist Pig
Footballguy
Roethlisberger is to the Steelers' O'Donnell as Palmer is to the Oilers' Moon. From the early 90's.Capable but not dazzling Qb shepherding a defense minded, run-first team into the playoffs, where he then collapses in his biggest chance to date. Versus a guy with a bunch of weapons putting up big numbers on a team he leads to the playoffs, but who hasn't actually won anything, or even had O'Donnell like success in the postseason yet.
Only difference is that this time around, the pedigrees coming out of college are much more blue chip.
DropKick
Footballguy
I didn't mean it as a bad thing. On message boards, often NFL value takes a back seat to fantasy value. And from a fantasy perspective, the Bengals offensive philosophy will probably yield better fantasy numbers than Pittsburgh's. This is not a slight. The Steelers appear to prefer to run the ball 40 times a game and win with a tough, physical style.My point was they're both good, young QBs with great potential. We just haven't seen enough to say one is superior to the other.
-OZ-
Footballguy
You've seen them more than I have, but I don't see how you can say Henry is a better NFL WR than ARE. Housh has better stats, but Randle El is every bit as talented from what I've seen as well. The offense makes it difficult to compare the WRs even, but on pure talent, they seem comparable.
encaitar
Footballguy
I have to say that Carson is a better QB right now. This is his second season as a starter and he leads a team to the playoffs that hasn't been there since Boomer and Icky played for them. That says alot about how good he is, especially considering how competitive the AFC has been in recent years. Carson Palmer would be my second choice of QB's to start a franchise with behind only Tom Brady. Yes, I put him ahead of Manning, only because he is many years younger than Manning and has a better arm. Sure he doesn't have the mind yet, but he's learning.Not to take anything away from Big Ben, who's one of the top ten QB's in the league himself, but Carson is just better at this point in their careers.
Blick
Footballguy
Randle El is a good slot receiver and special teamer. He is not a quality NFL No. 2 receiver.As much as Ward brings to the Steelers, he is still probably closer in talent to Housh than Johnson as far a receiver talent. IMO Chad Johnson is a much better pure receiver than Hines. Hines just makes up for that in other ways (hustle, blocking, leadership, etc.)
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I agree with this. I LOVE Hines Ward, and he's a very good WR. His blocking skills, toughness, and leadership make him a great one. But Randle El is nothing more than a quick slot receiver who is forced into a starting role because they don't have anyone else to step in, and I tried to tell that to people who expected him to adequately replace Burress. He's just not that good, but he adds a spark with his quickness from time to time, especially on special teams.The return game gives Randle El some extra value for the Steelers, but strictly as a WR I'd much, MUCH rather have Chris Henry than Antwaan Randle El as the #2 WR for the Steelers. I don't think they're comparable in talent at all.
My point in that was that not only does Palmer have a better system for passing stats to play in, he's also throwing to a much more talented group of WRs.
maybe Brady isn't the best comparison for Ben, but how about a guy like Phil Simms? a lot of it is the team he plays for and the system he's in, but the main point is that he can be a very good QB without putting up great stats.
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jetpack
Footballguy
Despite Funky_K's fishing for the answer he wants (a.k.a. Palmer), the right answer is basically neither of them are better. Palmer
- three years in the league, two years starting QB
- in an offense that throws the ball 30x/game
- already has thrown for 30 tds in a year
Roth
- two years in the league, basically two years as a starting QB
- in a ball-control offense that throws the ball 20x/game
- already has a legendary season under his belt as a rookie
Both
- are supported by strong running games and quality receivers/TEs
- at the top of the passer rating leaders
- clearly have bright futures ahead of them
- have ZERO Superbowl wins
So depending on what criteria you want to use you could pick one or the other and say they're the best. You want stats? Go with Palmer. You want last minute wins? Go with Roth. You want who is the more technically sound QB right now? Take Palmer. He better be considering he's been in the league a year longer.
I'm just glad both these league stars are in the AFC North to give it credibility. I think they're both going to have their share of successes.
By the way, I think the Roth/Aikman comparison is a pretty good one. If he trends that way for his career I'll be estatic as a Steeler fan.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Sure, when you average over 10 ypa, don't turn the ball over and throw 3 TDs (should have been 4, but Cowher decided not to challenge the incorrect incomplete call on Randle-El's TD due to the pass intereference call.)I have said this a million times already, but people need to STOP already with the "Roethlisberger only threw 16 times, so they obviously didn't rely on him...." argument. It's bunk. I know most fans don't get to see the Steelers play every week, but if you watched tonight's game, it was a PERFECT example of what I have been saying. Yes, he only threw 19 times, but he was easily, EASILY, the Steelers most valuable player today. The reason why he only threw 19 times is because he was able to give the Steelers the lead, which allows them to run the ball 96% of the time for much of the second half. That's how they win games. The key is, they can't get to that point without relying on Roethlisberger to make plays through the air. How many rushing yards did the Steelers have in the first half? In fact, how many did they have at the point at which they went up 28-17? It was Roethlisberger who absolutely carried the offense until the game was no longer in doubt (I consider an 11 point lead no longer in doubt given Cowher's 101-1-1 record in such situations.)It's really too bad Palmer was injured in this game.
Good thing he only had to throw 19 times today.
Also, let's put the "Roethlisberger stinks in the playoffs" argument to bed too. I'm sure if the Colts get up early next week and Ben is forced to throw repeatedly into coverage and gets picked off a few times next week, the boo birds will come back, but I think tonight's game effectively pisses on the argument that Roethlisberger can't get it done in the big game. He was phenomenal tonight - his throws were pinpoint accurate all night, both short and deep, he made plays with his feet, and he made great decisions with the ball. He was every bit as good, if not better, than Brady was last night. And no, I am not comparing the two, just saying that Roethlisberger played about as well as a QB can play tonight.
TIKI-BARBERS-BARBER
Footballguy
Did the same argument happen when both Elway and Marino came into the league?
-OZ-
Footballguy
Sure, when you average over 10 ypa, don't turn the ball over and throw 3 TDs (should have been 4, but Cowher decided not to challenge the incorrect incomplete call on Randle-El's TD due to the pass intereference call.)I have said this a million times already, but people need to STOP already with the "Roethlisberger only threw 16 times, so they obviously didn't rely on him...." argument. It's bunk. I know most fans don't get to see the Steelers play every week, but if you watched tonight's game, it was a PERFECT example of what I have been saying. Yes, he only threw 19 times, but he was easily, EASILY, the Steelers most valuable player today. The reason why he only threw 19 times is because he was able to give the Steelers the lead, which allows them to run the ball 96% of the time for much of the second half. That's how they win games. The key is, they can't get to that point without relying on Roethlisberger to make plays through the air. How many rushing yards did the Steelers have in the first half? In fact, how many did they have at the point at which they went up 28-17? It was Roethlisberger who absolutely carried the offense until the game was no longer in doubt (I consider an 11 point lead no longer in doubt given Cowher's 101-1-1 record in such situations.)It's really too bad Palmer was injured in this game.
Good thing he only had to throw 19 times today.
Also, let's put the "Roethlisberger stinks in the playoffs" argument to bed too. I'm sure if the Colts get up early next week and Ben is forced to throw repeatedly into coverage and gets picked off a few times next week, the boo birds will come back, but I think tonight's game effectively pisses on the argument that Roethlisberger can't get it done in the big game. He was phenomenal tonight - his throws were pinpoint accurate all night, both short and deep, he made plays with his feet, and he made great decisions with the ball. He was every bit as good, if not better, than Brady was last night. And no, I am not comparing the two, just saying that Roethlisberger played about as well as a QB can play tonight.
Maybe it's just that I've turned into a believer over the past year (enough to acquire Ben in my main league), but I agree entirely. While the Running game did well statistically in the end, it was Ben who led the charge. While I'm certainly not a Steeler fan, it just happens that my favorite player is a Steeler (dangit Cowher - throw the flag there!) , and I like Ben now, so I'm rooting for them against Indy. 
I don't see Ben as a guy who will take over a game just yet, but how many 2nd year guys ever did? Give him a little while here.
TIKI-BARBERS-BARBER
Footballguy
Let me guess your favorite player is Hines? He's alot of footbal fans favorite player even ones who hate Pitt.Sure, when you average over 10 ypa, don't turn the ball over and throw 3 TDs (should have been 4, but Cowher decided not to challenge the incorrect incomplete call on Randle-El's TD due to the pass intereference call.)I have said this a million times already, but people need to STOP already with the "Roethlisberger only threw 16 times, so they obviously didn't rely on him...." argument. It's bunk. I know most fans don't get to see the Steelers play every week, but if you watched tonight's game, it was a PERFECT example of what I have been saying. Yes, he only threw 19 times, but he was easily, EASILY, the Steelers most valuable player today. The reason why he only threw 19 times is because he was able to give the Steelers the lead, which allows them to run the ball 96% of the time for much of the second half. That's how they win games. The key is, they can't get to that point without relying on Roethlisberger to make plays through the air. How many rushing yards did the Steelers have in the first half? In fact, how many did they have at the point at which they went up 28-17? It was Roethlisberger who absolutely carried the offense until the game was no longer in doubt (I consider an 11 point lead no longer in doubt given Cowher's 101-1-1 record in such situations.)It's really too bad Palmer was injured in this game.
Good thing he only had to throw 19 times today.
Also, let's put the "Roethlisberger stinks in the playoffs" argument to bed too. I'm sure if the Colts get up early next week and Ben is forced to throw repeatedly into coverage and gets picked off a few times next week, the boo birds will come back, but I think tonight's game effectively pisses on the argument that Roethlisberger can't get it done in the big game. He was phenomenal tonight - his throws were pinpoint accurate all night, both short and deep, he made plays with his feet, and he made great decisions with the ball. He was every bit as good, if not better, than Brady was last night. And no, I am not comparing the two, just saying that Roethlisberger played about as well as a QB can play tonight.
I don't see Ben as a guy who will take over a game just yet, but how many 2nd year guys ever did? Give him a little while here.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Not to get too far from the point of the thread, but I thought my "throw the towel" comment was a clue. Randle El - I don't really know why, but I love what he brings to the game. Not an elite receiver, but perhaps one of the most versatile players in the NFL. I've been a fan since he was at IU.Let me guess your favorite player is Hines? He's alot of footbal fans favorite player even ones who hate Pitt.While I'm certainly not a Steeler fan, it just happens that my favorite player is a Steeler (dangit Cowher - throw the flag there!) , and I like Ben now, so I'm rooting for them against Indy.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Good post Evil. I don't know why people are so critical of Ben. He does exactly what's asked and expected of him and he does as well as anyone does. If he were the QB in Cinn he'd have bigger stats as well. But to suggest that he's not as important because they don't throw as much is clearly a comment made by a casual fan rather than someone with a vested interest such as yourself.Sure, when you average over 10 ypa, don't turn the ball over and throw 3 TDs (should have been 4, but Cowher decided not to challenge the incorrect incomplete call on Randle-El's TD due to the pass intereference call.)I have said this a million times already, but people need to STOP already with the "Roethlisberger only threw 16 times, so they obviously didn't rely on him...." argument. It's bunk. I know most fans don't get to see the Steelers play every week, but if you watched tonight's game, it was a PERFECT example of what I have been saying. Yes, he only threw 19 times, but he was easily, EASILY, the Steelers most valuable player today. The reason why he only threw 19 times is because he was able to give the Steelers the lead, which allows them to run the ball 96% of the time for much of the second half. That's how they win games. The key is, they can't get to that point without relying on Roethlisberger to make plays through the air. How many rushing yards did the Steelers have in the first half? In fact, how many did they have at the point at which they went up 28-17? It was Roethlisberger who absolutely carried the offense until the game was no longer in doubt (I consider an 11 point lead no longer in doubt given Cowher's 101-1-1 record in such situations.)It's really too bad Palmer was injured in this game.
Good thing he only had to throw 19 times today.
Also, let's put the "Roethlisberger stinks in the playoffs" argument to bed too. I'm sure if the Colts get up early next week and Ben is forced to throw repeatedly into coverage and gets picked off a few times next week, the boo birds will come back, but I think tonight's game effectively pisses on the argument that Roethlisberger can't get it done in the big game. He was phenomenal tonight - his throws were pinpoint accurate all night, both short and deep, he made plays with his feet, and he made great decisions with the ball. He was every bit as good, if not better, than Brady was last night. And no, I am not comparing the two, just saying that Roethlisberger played about as well as a QB can play tonight.
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