Man In The Box
Footballguy
Matt Ryan?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Who's MVP? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter stuckinthemuck
- Start date
bostonfred
Footballguy
Boo hoo, Manning and Rivers lost some receivers. The Patriots are 6-2 with a young defense that just got destroyed by the Browns, and who do the Patriots have on offense besides Brady? Moss is gone. Mankins held out. Welker came off an ACL injury and hasn't had a Welker like season at all. BenJarvus Green Ellis? Woodhead, who couldn't even make the Jets' roster? A rookie fourth rounder at tight end? The Patriots are allowing 23.5 points per game, which is 23rd in the NFL. It's not like this defense is driving their record. Tom Brady might not be having a monster fantasy season, but he's absolutely carried this team to the best record in the AFC. I understand people talking about Rivers and Manning because of their numbers, but it's absurd that Brady's not even in the conversation.
Masked Vigilante
Footballguy
I'm jumping on the bandwagon
sho nuff
Footballguy
You can align me with those who think its not just some runaway for Rivers.I think both he and Manning are playing quite well and I think Clay Matthews deserves to be mentioned but it will most likely go to a QB barring a huge breakout by someone.Just Win Baby said:I watched plenty of both of them last year. There were multiple threads that went through this, and we don't need to get into that in this thread. IMO Revis was better by a considerable margin.I responded to Jayrod who was basically trying to discredit one of my posts by suggesting that I was saying the MVP voters got it wrong, which doesn't happen. I responded with an example that I feel illustrates that they do get it wrong sometimes. It's fine if you disagree and want to align yourself with Jayrod.sho nuff said:
Jayrod
Footballguy
In case you were wondering, this is a point where I was using hyperbole to make a point about the irrelevance of Vincent Jackson being gone all season.But I shouldn't really expect you Rivers backers to understand such complex communication techniques. I need to remember you can't see past passing yards. My bad.Just Win Baby said:Polar Dude said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Jayrod
Footballguy
I should probably clarify my position a bit. I am just messing with guys in here a bit, but I do believe that Peyton Manning deserves MVP more than Rivers for several reasons.
Can someone please explain to me the real reasons why Rivers is more deserving than Manning this season? I am curious to see an objective analysis that promotes Rivers over Manning by comparing the two. Because when I've looked at everything (and I've dropped a handful of numbers in this thread), I just see it as Manning's award right now...especially if you even bother to look at the way Manning runs his offense compared to Rivers.
Can someone please explain to me the real reasons why Rivers is more deserving than Manning this season? I am curious to see an objective analysis that promotes Rivers over Manning by comparing the two. Because when I've looked at everything (and I've dropped a handful of numbers in this thread), I just see it as Manning's award right now...especially if you even bother to look at the way Manning runs his offense compared to Rivers.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The Patriots defense has given up its fair share of points, but they (and the special teams) have also scored their fair share as well.A good example is the San Diego game. The New England offense did absolutely nothing in all but 1 drive the entire game but the Pats jumped out to a huge lead thanks to big plays out of the defense and special teams. But I guess you think Tom Brady "carried" them through that game with his 159 yards passing and 1 touchdown?The Miami game was pretty much the same story. Three touchdowns scored by the special teams/defense, and another two set up with great field position by them. Again though, it must have been Brady that "carried" them through that game with his 153 yards passing and 1 touchdown, right?bostonfred said:
Last edited by a moderator:
DesmondBishop
Footballguy
sho nuff said:
Agreed the arguement can be made for either player, but Revis only did 1 thing, granted he did it very well. But Woodson, did everything, he covered the teams best guy, he also blitzed often, he also played safety when guys got hurt, MVP is what they did for that team, as proven this year, Revis was just another good player on a great defense as the Jets continued to win without him and while he has played hurt.
Last edited by a moderator:
Area51Inhabitant
Footballguy
LOL at any Patriots fan trying to include Brady in the MVP discussion.
Tau837
Footballguy
I can see past passing yards. How about yards per attempt? How about QB rating?In case you were wondering, this is a point where I was using hyperbole to make a point about the irrelevance of Vincent Jackson being gone all season.But I shouldn't really expect you Rivers backers to understand such complex communication techniques. I need to remember you can't see past passing yards. My bad.Just Win Baby said:Polar Dude said:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
There is no such stat at QB rating; it is passer rating (even though even ESPN incorrectly lists it as otherwise).
Last edited by a moderator:
Native
Footballguy
My vote goes to Roddy White. This guy makes so many big plays - whether stripping the ball vs San Fran in the final minute of the game to catching the go ahead score last night vs Baltimore. Hes made as many big plays as anyone this year and his team is in first place because of him.
Tau837
Footballguy
The general case for Rivers over Manning is as follows:1. Rivers has better total numbers, and notably is on pace to surpass the all time single season passing yardage record. While he has played one more game than Manning, that is offset by the fact that Manning has actually attempted more passes.2. More importantly, Rivers has better rate/efficiency numbers (ypa, passer rating) than Manning. He is attempting fewer passes but getting more out of them.3. As a result of his outstanding performance, the Chargers have the #1 offense and the #1 passing offense in the league.4. The Colts have a better record, though not substantially better, but the primary reason for the gap in record is the dismal performance of San Diego's special teams, which should not be held against Rivers.5. While both of them have had to deal with a lot of missed games from offensive teammates, it has been worse for Rivers, which makes his performance more impressive.Yes, Manning is like an offensive coordinator, etc., but Rivers is the clear leader of the Chargers.It's close, so this amounts to accumulation of small differences. But that's how it is for deciding amongst top MVP candidates.
Last edited by a moderator:
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
How about this? Rivers is averaging almost a full adjusted net yard per attempt more than Manning: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/YaH7RHe's averaging almost TWO full yards per attempt more than Manning.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Isn't this offset a bit by the Chargers having a better defense than the Colts though?
Chase - would that stat be enough for you to overlook the records of their respective teams? To me, it's very difficult to give an MVP award to anyone on a team that has collectively underperformed as much as the Chargers have this season.
Green and Gold
Footballguy
Big a fan as I am, Brady doesn't deserve to be in the MVP conversation. He hasn't been in that category this year, period. If you watch all of his games and are honest with yourself, you'd agree. How many times has his receivers needed circus catches to get a completion? How many passes have been at their feet or over their heads?
Granted, his receivers drop quite a number of passes as well. Brady isn't awful by any stretch, and I'd still rather have him than almost anyone else in the league, but we're talking about MVP here. Most valuable guy in the league. I just don't see that in him.
Granted, his receivers drop quite a number of passes as well. Brady isn't awful by any stretch, and I'd still rather have him than almost anyone else in the league, but we're talking about MVP here. Most valuable guy in the league. I just don't see that in him.
Tau837
Footballguy
Offset how? It is indisputable that the Chargers special teams have cost them 2-3 games. I'm not sure how that could be offset by the defense. Suppose the special teams play was average and the offense and defense performed at the same level as they have... then the Chargers would likely be 6-3 or 7-2, and everyone would be saying Rivers is the runaway choice for MVP.I also suspect that the defense is not as good as its ranking. All the special teams problems have led the defense to face fewer drives and plays. I think it's more likely they will maintain their top ranking on offense the rest of the way than on defense the rest of the way.
sho nuff
Footballguy
You are saying the Colts only have a better record because of bad special teams.Im saying, the Colts defense is also worse, so that could offset poor special teams when Peyton has been having to do just as much as Rivers to try and win because of deficiencies in other areas of the team.Both have done very close to the same things.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Keep in mind, though, that Rivers numbers might not be as good if their ST were average, as he wouldn't be playing from behind as much. They'd still be great, but maybe not as great. His yardage would likely be a bit lower. Just saying...
Tau837
Footballguy
No it doesn't offset. The Chargers special teams is the worst in the league by a huge margin; I don't know how to compare, but they may be on a historically bad run so far this season. The Colts defense is not historically bad or even close to the worst in the league; it is roughly average, possibly slightly below.Recent post on the Chargers special teams:
Tau837
Footballguy
This is true, however I see no reason to believe that his rate stats would be negatively affected. In fact, they could be better, since he might be throwing less often when the defense knows it's coming.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yes, they are bad...are the putting SD's offense right back on the field though?
Thus giving Rivers even more opportunity?
I just think its funny how some want to believe that any one person is far and away the best right now.
Just as its funny to consider it criminal that a guy with Woodson's numbers last year won the DPOY.
Thus giving Rivers even more opportunity?
I just think its funny how some want to believe that any one person is far and away the best right now.
Just as its funny to consider it criminal that a guy with Woodson's numbers last year won the DPOY.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Perhaps that does give Rivers more opportunity, but note that the post you originally responded to that led to this tangent of discussion related to comparing Rivers to Peyton Manning. Manning has attempted more passes in 8 games than Rivers has in 9 games.
I'm not sure who you are referring to as saying that one person is far and away the best right now. I haven't said that. I think Rivers is the best candidate and Peyton Manning is next. I don't think Rivers is running away with it.
It isn't criminal that a guy with Woodson's numbers won DPOY. It is criminal that he won with his performance when Revis outperformed him. In other years, Woodson's performance might have been deserving, just not last year.
bostonfred
Footballguy
He had just gotten done beating Rivers and SAN DIEGO, who had just gotten done losing to teams like ST LOUIS and OAKLAND. And laughing about how Manning had lost to a terrible looking JACKSONVILLE team early in the season. This happens every year - Miami did it to them with the wildcat offense, Cleveland did some new things with their amoeba defense, and so on - because a lot of those teams look at New England as their Superbowl. Indy and San Diego used to be the same way for teams but not this year.
T with T
Footballguy
I know he wont win but I think RODDY WHITE is an electic player and the best offensive player in the game but the NFL is a quarterback league they suck up to qbs... wrs dont get diddey.. Roddy is on pace for a hall of fame year and drives the ATL offense, without him in the game Ryan went into a shell... Ryan is a diff qb without white in the game.... Who else in the game can potentially grab 120 balls 1700 yards and 11-14 tds
sho nuff
Footballguy
And yes, that has been debated. I dsiagree. I think even with what Revis did...Woodson was just as deserving given what he did all around for that defense last year.
bostonfred
Footballguy
update: brady leads patriots to signature win whie putting up huge numbers against arguably the best d and best team in the rest of the nfl as ge leads the pats to the leagues best record... hard to argue against him leading the pack for mvp.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Pittsburgh is neither the best nor the second best team in the NFL right now. Heck, they aren't even in first place in their own division.
Having said that, Brady shot up the list tonight, but still isn't at the top.
Having said that, Brady shot up the list tonight, but still isn't at the top.
Tau837
Footballguy
It's very easy to argue against him leading the pack for MVP. See the rest of the thread. Rivers and Manning are still stronger candidates.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I am not sure Peyton is a stronger candidate as this point than Brady. Brady's numbers are now better (slightly better TD-INT ratio and a higher YPA), and despite missing a bunch of weapons, Manning still has Reggie Wayne, who is far better than anyone the Patriots have to throw to. Take Peyton off the Colts and they would stink, but I think it is safe to say that the same could be said for Brady and the Patriots right now. Going back over the thread isn't a big help, since Peyton's numbers today were pedestrian and Brady's were phenomenal, so you have to add today to the overall equation.
Last edited by a moderator:
RhymesMcJuice
Footballguy
If Rivers doesn't make the playoffs he won't win it.
Masked Vigilante
Footballguy
Cue the batsignal for switz.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Tom Brady 2176 yards, 17 TDs, 4 INTs, 15 rush yards, 1 TD, 98.8 rating
Manning 2663, 16 TDs, 4 INTs, -6 rush yards, 0 TD, 93.9 rating,
Rivers 2944, 19 TDs, 8 INTs, 26 rush yards, 0 TD, 102.9 rating
Brady has a better TD/INT ratio than either of them, has more TDs than Manning and just one fewer than Rivers in the same number of games played, and while he trails in yards, he has a better QB rating than Manning and has led the Patriots to a much better team record than Rivers. And yes, Brady has led the team.
Brady has the Patriots at 7-2 so far despite huge issues with the running backs, offensive line and receivers and one of the worst defenses in the league, allowing 23.8 PPG (25th in the league), allowing 390.8 YPG (29th in the league), including 277.8 pass YPG (30th in the league).
Make no mistake, the reason the Patriots are 7-2 is that the lead the league in scoring. Yes, the defense and special teams have scored six touchdowns, but the Colts's D/ST has scored 3 TDs themselves, and the Pats lead them by 18 points scored. So let's not play the "if the defense hadn't scored that D/ST TD the Pats would only be second in scoring" game that was going on earlier in the thread.
So why does the offense lead the league in scoring? I think we can all agree that it's the passing game that's carrying the offense. It's certainly not because Fred Taylor, Kevin Faulk, Lawrence Maroney, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Danny Woodhead and Sammy Morris have played so well.
Is it the high quality of receivers? Moss was bad enough that they let him go, and the next team did, too. He didn't even try in his last game here. Welker is coming off ACL surgery and has been way off his previous numbers. Branch was mediocre at best in Seattle and was immediately productive when he got to New England. Has anyone even mentioned Tate or Edelman's name in your fantasy leagues recently? Hernandez has been decent, but he's a rookie tight end who got shut out yesterday. Their other rookie tight end Gronkowski blew a couple plays last week and Brady didn't hesitate to dial him up for not one, not two, but three TDs yesterday.
Is it the offensive line? Remember that Brady didn't have their best offensive lineman Logan Mankins to start the season, and had to deal with working him in during the Cleveland game, which was one of several reasons Cleveland was able to get to the quarterback as often as they did.
Oh, and they just lost their kicker for the season and had to replace their long snapper.
There's nobody outperforming their situation as much as Tom Brady is doing for the Patriots. They just beat the Steelers by double digits on the road in a game that was hugely imporant to BOTH teams where the prognosicators literally said things like, "I can't imagine a scenario where the Patriots win", and "The Steelers are just better in every unit".
Bottom line, after his performance last night, Tom Brady is our leading MVP candidate right now.
Manning 2663, 16 TDs, 4 INTs, -6 rush yards, 0 TD, 93.9 rating,
Rivers 2944, 19 TDs, 8 INTs, 26 rush yards, 0 TD, 102.9 rating
Brady has a better TD/INT ratio than either of them, has more TDs than Manning and just one fewer than Rivers in the same number of games played, and while he trails in yards, he has a better QB rating than Manning and has led the Patriots to a much better team record than Rivers. And yes, Brady has led the team.
Brady has the Patriots at 7-2 so far despite huge issues with the running backs, offensive line and receivers and one of the worst defenses in the league, allowing 23.8 PPG (25th in the league), allowing 390.8 YPG (29th in the league), including 277.8 pass YPG (30th in the league).
Make no mistake, the reason the Patriots are 7-2 is that the lead the league in scoring. Yes, the defense and special teams have scored six touchdowns, but the Colts's D/ST has scored 3 TDs themselves, and the Pats lead them by 18 points scored. So let's not play the "if the defense hadn't scored that D/ST TD the Pats would only be second in scoring" game that was going on earlier in the thread.
So why does the offense lead the league in scoring? I think we can all agree that it's the passing game that's carrying the offense. It's certainly not because Fred Taylor, Kevin Faulk, Lawrence Maroney, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Danny Woodhead and Sammy Morris have played so well.
Is it the high quality of receivers? Moss was bad enough that they let him go, and the next team did, too. He didn't even try in his last game here. Welker is coming off ACL surgery and has been way off his previous numbers. Branch was mediocre at best in Seattle and was immediately productive when he got to New England. Has anyone even mentioned Tate or Edelman's name in your fantasy leagues recently? Hernandez has been decent, but he's a rookie tight end who got shut out yesterday. Their other rookie tight end Gronkowski blew a couple plays last week and Brady didn't hesitate to dial him up for not one, not two, but three TDs yesterday.
Is it the offensive line? Remember that Brady didn't have their best offensive lineman Logan Mankins to start the season, and had to deal with working him in during the Cleveland game, which was one of several reasons Cleveland was able to get to the quarterback as often as they did.
Oh, and they just lost their kicker for the season and had to replace their long snapper.
There's nobody outperforming their situation as much as Tom Brady is doing for the Patriots. They just beat the Steelers by double digits on the road in a game that was hugely imporant to BOTH teams where the prognosicators literally said things like, "I can't imagine a scenario where the Patriots win", and "The Steelers are just better in every unit".
Bottom line, after his performance last night, Tom Brady is our leading MVP candidate right now.
Area51Inhabitant
Footballguy
Congrats to Brady for now officially joining the conversation. To say any one of them is head and shoulders above the others at this point is still very homerish imo.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
I'll be accepting apologies the rest of the week.
bostonfred
Footballguy
11/21/10: Brady solidifies MVP candidacy, leading Patriots to 8-2 record in victory over Colts as Manning throws his third interception of the day to end the game.
karmarooster
Footballguy
Vick only has 0 INTs all season, legit or otherwise. 16 total TDs and 0 Interceptions.6 games he's finished, 1 game ended early due to injury. 2.667 TDs per game...Keep in mind that's a 40+ TDs over 16 games.... and ZERO interceptions. Also on a 4,000 yard rate for passing yards over 16 games. ONLY passing. Also on a 1,000 yard rate for rushing yards over 16 games. IMO if Vick plays the rest of the season at the same pace, it's a two horse race between him and Rivers. If the Chargers fail to make the playoffs and the Eagles do, basically you have a debate: Is it more important to have superior numbers over 16 games played on a losing team? Or is it more important to have superior per game numbers over less than 16 games dues to injury on a winning team? Advantage: Vick.
Art Vandalay
Footballguy
Why is Matt Ryan getting no love?
Hellfire Snail
Footballguy
Meh.
