Why are so many of the greatest rock groups predominantly British? (1 Viewer)

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Black Keys / White Stripes

 

[Bob Magaw]

Because it's mostly white British descendants that like rock music?

Another good point.

Though if an average person, even one descended from Britain, is many generations removed from their lineage/heritage, I think they would identify themselves more as American than Brits, so the question remains (for some).

 

[bushdocda]

Weezer's British?

 

[Aerial Assault]

Weezer's British?

Yup. From Los Angeleshire.

 

[sports_fan]

The Geographical Society of America is actually pretty great.

 

[Bob Magaw]

QUOTE - "You're ### ####ed right they do. Better records and stand the test of time, too. I realize I'm being pedantic, but I'm tired of "four white guys with guitars" being somehow above and everything else being "other".

Again, part of the issue here from my perspective seems to be genre blurring/confusion. Is Baby Love a rock song? I don't think of it that way, more R & B, soul or pop. There has been a lot of talk about subjectivity in the thread (a good thing, important to account for that), but I think it is an idiosyncratic and peculiar take to think others would think of The Supremes as a ROCK group. Whatever one thinks of their merits relative to The Supremes (and not comparing them in terms of importance, but GENRE), I don't think of ABBA or The Captain and Tennille as *ROCK* groups. And I don't think many others do. They were pop acts. The Beatles, Stones and Who could play pop, but they played rock, too.

Earlier when we were talking about the Wrecking Crew, you said I missed your point. That is why I brought up the Supremes, you also brought up the Funk Brothers. Even though I get what you are saying at times, I again think you are defining rock group in an idiosyncratic and peculiar way, not conventionally, in lumping the Funk Brothers with the Beatles, Stones, Who. One of the most problematic aspects of thinking the Funk Brothers would be viewed in this context in anything but a fringe, extremely oblique and remotely connected way, is how diffuse and spread out there work is. They have their collective body of work to hang their hat on, which is impressive (and you can see how diverse and eclectic their R & B, soul and pop capability is, in the many songs they did in the doc, interspersed with the history proper). But is their work with any single artist, like the Supremes, elevating them past the Beatles, Stones or Who, as ROCK artists. I don't think so. And if you sum all those I don't think so examples, than even in aggregate, I don't see that being a popular or consensus idea, or likely to be borne out in polls. It is almost like they are competing against themselves, and dividing votes. Some associate them with the Supremes, some with a different group, some with another still, and so on.

Probably the most problematic reason in expecting recognition for the Funk Brothers is that they weren't commonly cited or very well known, Motown rarely credited them, they didn't have any promotion within the label (maybe Barry Gordy liked it that way, so they wouldn't ask for raises and/or get stolen by other labels) or visibility and profile outside of it. That is exactly why they did the collective biopic, and made them such a fascinating choice of subject matter for the doc. They were important, but virtually unknown. Even after the doc brought them to the attention of some, that probably didn't put a huge dent in their continued existence laboring in relative obscurity, except for that small percentage amongst all music listeners that happened to see the doc, or discovered then independently.

Were they super important, sure. I just don't think, as we conventionally define *ROCK GROUP* they are a good fit, or that it is ridiculous to suggest you may be breaking this down in a contrarian fashion, not the other way around. Also, when you get right down to it, they were a BACKING band. If the Beatles had been a backing band for EMI back in the day, anonymous session players who came and went in random configurations, than they would never have become, or been known as the Beatles (at least, not in the sense we think of them now). Maybe they could have aspired to be a better Booker T and the MGs (Stax did position them as a standalone act in addition to their ubiquitous house band responsibilities, unlike The Funk Brothers for Motown)?

* Some of your answers are as if I stated categorically rock is more important that R & B, soul or pop. I'm not saying that. Just that they are different in important ways.

​

 

[HellToupee]

Wasn't a majority of Punk from the UK also? The Clash, etc?

not really

 

[Ilov80s]

I don't the the Supremes are rock so they don't fit, but it has nothing to do with playing instruments. Their voices were their instruments and maybe 1 or 2 rock bands ever could sing as a group as well as the Supremes.

 

[Ilov80s]

The British bands mostly came out of a certain era and were heavily influenced by black blues and soul artists. The question is then why did black blues and soul music become so popular amongst a select generation of British teens?

That is a good and interesting question. The (or a) question to me still remains, why were originals (and I will make the distinction and note talking about sources and inspirations here in a blues context - Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf) generally not as hugely popular as the versions that refracted those influences back to the origin country (Stones, Clapton, Page, etc.). Maybe part of delineating some of these factors comes from pointing out influences, and the way they are combined before being "refracted" back, is highly complex (not simplistically additive, a lot of British guitarists listened to and played the blues, but weren't as successful as The Stones, The Who, Zeppelin). So maybe it had to do with variances in talent, skill, ability in how they put those influences together.

I also remember seeing quotes from those black musicians about how shocked they were that all these skinny white kids from England were obsessed with their music and were emulating it. Many of them seemed to find it a cute joke. They didn't really think the Brits could play the music all that well. Those opinions may have changed over time, but I have read some pretty dismissive quotes from the blues guys about acts like the Yardbirds and John Mayall Bluesbreakers.

 

[timschochet]

But who were the influences for most of these great British rock bands? Black American blues singers, that's who. From the guy on my avatar to Skip James to Muddy Waters to Elmore James, etc, without them there's no Who or Zeppelin or Stones or Clapton. Without Chuck Berry and Little Richard there's no Beatles. Without rockabilly there's no Clash.

The British are great copiers when it comes to music. They've done rock better than anyone else, arguably, but very little is original.

 

[timschochet]

I will add that both Paul McCartney and Ray Davies were influenced as well by English music hall vaudeville type music as well.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

You're identifying a specific era. When you do that, you are typically isolating a regional influence. In this case, the U.K.

Take a look at 90s Rock bands and report back.

He said good bands.

 

[Righetti]

I think there is something to be said for the premise. What I believe it has to do with is that great art springs other great art. Guys playing in small clubs get better for hearing each other and about each other. Same reason that there was this huge Seattle scene for a decade

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Black Keys / White Stripes

Green Day

Blue Oyster Cult

Agent Orange

Red Elvises

Yellowcard

 

[Riversco]

Because when it rains all day you've got nothing else better to do than sit indoors and play guitar. Same reason there was a huge Seattle scene at one time.

 

[GreenNGold]

Really?

Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc.

I haven't even heard of half of those.

 

[JohnnyU]

Really?

Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc.

I haven't even heard of half of those.

which ones?

 

[Otis]

What really will blow your mind is think, when was the last time any of the British rock guys had a British accent while singing?

Answer: they don't. Ever.

In the end, they're ALL American.

 

[HellToupee]

Black Keys / White Stripes

Green Day

Blue Oyster Cult

Agent Orange

Red Elvises

Yellowcard

David Bowie

Roxy Music

The Kinks

 

[GreenNGold]

Really?

Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc.

I haven't even heard of half of those.

which ones?

ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc.

It's possible I know a song by them but just don't know it's them. Other than the Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, Floyd, I probably only know 1-3 songs by the other groups listed. Perhaps just before my time, but I do like rock.

 

[timschochet]

What really will blow your mind is think, when was the last time any of the British rock guys had a British accent while singing?

Answer: they don't. Ever.

In the end, they're ALL American.

Never listened to The Clash, have you?

 

[PIK95]

I see thatcyou have failed to mention these American rock bands:

The Allman Brothers Band

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Aerosmith

Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

Pearl Jam

Nirvana

ZZTop

Can't compare those. Not even close.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Stop reading Rolling Stone's idiotic history of pop music and quit remembering the aisles at Tower Records as gospel in genre. You alluded to it previously, but then dismissed it by falling into the genre pit yourself. I can name more exceptions than you can name a rule.

For instance, the Wrecking Crew was better (and truer) to how music is made than ####### Pink Floyd (who should give every royalty they ever got to Alan Parsons).

Love this shtick.

 

[timschochet]

I see thatcyou have failed to mention these American rock bands:

The Allman Brothers Band

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Aerosmith

Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

Pearl Jam

Nirvana

ZZTop

Can't compare those. Not even close.

Most of them no.

But Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen are as great and as important to rock music as any British band not named the Beatles (and Dylan might touch even them.) And Nirvana's impact was as certainly as huge as the Sex Pistols or the Clash.

 

[PIK95]

I see thatcyou have failed to mention these American rock bands:

The Allman Brothers Band

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Aerosmith

Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

Pearl Jam

Nirvana

ZZTop

As I said, probably forgetting some, thanks for the oversight corrections. I wasn't trying to be comprehensive and exhaustive as much as representative.

Would you take any of these over the Beatles, Who, Stones, Zeppelin?

Sure i would. But it would also have to be dependent on a specific criteria.In my personal opinion the at least 3 of the top 5 rock songs of all time are from american bands.

Like a rolling stone. Born to run and all along the watchtower. 2 written by bob dylan. Satisfaction would be there but no beatles or who or zeppelin. Truthfully the 5th would be Johnny b goode by chuck berry so a 4th American.

Body of work the who and zeppelin wouldnt be better than dylan or Springsteen. so that would make it elvis, the beatles, the stones, dylan and Springsteen. 3 to 2 usa vs the uk.

And i would also include the motown sound and the Stax/volt soul sound into the mix because then we are adding smokey, the temptations, the supremes wilson pickett, otis redding and Aretha. Plus ray charles. johnny cash if u want to include his hybrid of rock and country. And why not include james brown, sly stone and pfunk.

The usa had a more diverse musical sound than the uk.

I think some of the differences here are related to genre differences.

Love James Brown, Sly Stone and P-Funk, and if there was a Funk Hall of Fame, they would be very high on it (I didn't ask why most of the greatest funk bands are British for a reason).

I was thinking more body of work than song. Clearly there are many ways this could be looked at, many ways the question could be asked, entailing many different possible forms of answer, and many ways subjectivity could shape opinions. I could see Elvis. He was hugely influential on Lennon (so was Dylan, and on Harrison, too). I think of Dylan as much folk as rock. It is possible if you polled the board about top 10 rock bands ever, your view might seem idiosyncratic, in having Springsteen over the likes of The Who and Zeppelin? In posing the question, though I didn't make it explicit, I wasn't assuming historical importance, though intuitively, I could see that factoring in for some. No idea how many would include Elvis for historical/influential reasons in a casual, informal poll when that isn't specifically addressed, and how many wouldn't?

To have a discussion about rock, even preliminarily, and while acknowledging lines might not be drawn exactly the same, and boundaries can sometimes be fuzzy, it probably helps to note what rock isn't. Rock came from and incorporates the blues (as well as other idioms). But I don't think of Robert Johnson as a rock guitarist, and that doesn't stop him from being one of the greats, in a genre transcending sense. Certainly a precursor to and influence on Clapton (mammals are thought to have evolved from amphibians, but there are many ways in which the former evolutionary branch offshoot doesn't resemble very much the root ancestor). I don't think of jazz guitarist great Kenny Burrell as a rock musician.

Not to mention, we may have some confusion over a term used in the thread title, I could have done a better job of underscoring that theme earlier. The word/s rock *GROUP*. Perhaps The Who and Zeppelin (there should have been a US/Brit hybrid that might have cut through this question like a Gordian knot - Led ZAPPAlin) represent and exemplify the sense or meaning of group as it is conventionally defined in a different way than Elvis and Dylan? I associate Dylan with The Band if his peak was in the '60s (Springsteen with the E Street Band, not sure about Elvis in the beginning at the Sun label, later in the fat, bloated, pill-ridden Vegas years, I think he used highly regarded session guitarist James Burton as his band organizer, as James Brown did variously with Fred Wesley and Maceo), no idea how common that assumption would be in a poll. Elvis had a massive historical influence on rock in its embryonic, nascent state. Whether people typically associate him with being an example of a great rock group, dunno?

Not saying you are wrong, thanks for the interesting and thought provoking responses and thread contribution.

* If the poll was stipulated to include historical importance, Elvis is a no brainer (again, just don't know if pollsters would assume that in the absence of clarification). If I were asking about greatest song writers (as distinct from rock group), Dylan would presumably and deservedly, obviously even, be very high up the list for many. Probably not Springsteen, in either category, imo.

Springsteen was/is a GREAT song writer. All timer imo.

 

[PIK95]

I will add that both Paul McCartney and Ray Davies were influenced as well by English music hall vaudeville type music as well.

Say, Say, Say?

 

[PIK95]

What really will blow your mind is think, when was the last time any of the British rock guys had a British accent while singing?

Answer: they don't. Ever.

In the end, they're ALL American.

Never listened to The Clash, have you?

Or Oasis.

 

[PIK95]

I see thatcyou have failed to mention these American rock bands:

The Allman Brothers Band

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Aerosmith

Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

Pearl Jam

Nirvana

ZZTop

Can't compare those. Not even close.

Most of them no.But Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen are as great and as important to rock music as any British band not named the Beatles (and Dylan might touch even them.) And Nirvana's impact was as certainly as huge as the Sex Pistols or the Clash.

I am one of the biggest Springsteen fans around. To compare him and E Street to Beatles and Zep, just isn't fair. I think he is better then Bob D though. I had Wild Billy's Circus Story playing for my kids last night. Love me some Wild Innocent.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Really?

Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc.

I haven't even heard of half of those.

which ones?

ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc.

It's possible I know a song by them but just don't know it's them. Other than the Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, Floyd, I probably only know 1-3 songs by the other groups listed. Perhaps just before my time, but I do like rock.

This makes me want to cry.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I will add that both Paul McCartney and Ray Davies were influenced as well by English music hall vaudeville type music as well.

Herman's Hermits and Freddie & The Dreamers, too.

 

[Chapelboy]

Wow. I don't even know where to begin. you guys sound like a bunch of snobs. Reminds me of the guy in the Harvard bar in Good Will Hunting that Matt Damon tears apart.

Just listen to the music, man. Peace and love.

 

[Otis]

What really will blow your mind is think, when was the last time any of the British rock guys had a British accent while singing?

Answer: they don't. Ever.

In the end, they're ALL American.

Never listened to The Clash, have you?

Or Oasis.

I try really hard not to.

 

[AAABatteries]

And what's with those accents? Makes me want to go check out Otis's It's Raining Men thread.

 

[flapgreen]

Not sure why you're getting so much push back here. Some great individual artists (Dylan, Hendrix, James Brown, Springsteen, Petty), but American bands don't come close to the best from across the pond.

The Beatles

Stones

Zeppelin

The Who

The Kinks

Cream

Pink Floyd

Sabbath

Queen

The Clash

Not close.

Clean out your pms

 

[Godsbrother]

I see thatcyou have failed to mention these American rock bands:

The Allman Brothers Band

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Aerosmith

Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

Pearl Jam

Nirvana

ZZTop

As I said, probably forgetting some, thanks for the oversight corrections. I wasn't trying to be comprehensive and exhaustive as much as representative.

Would you take any of these over the Beatles, Who, Stones, Zeppelin?

I think before anyone could answer this we would need to know what is your non subjective criteria. Anything beyond non subjective criteria just becomes a matter of a opinion and there is no right or wrong answer.

What American bands would you say were better than the four he mentioned. And I better not see ZZ Top or Lynyrd Skynyrd mentioned again.

Booker T & the Mgs

The Funk Brothers

Funkadelic

The JBs

Do Diana Ross and the Supremes even belong in a genre poll with Led Zeppelin?

You're ### ####ed right they do. Better records and stand the test of time, too. I realize I'm being pedantic, but I'm tired of "four white guys with guitars" being somehow above and everything else being "other"

While I love the Supremes their greatness was due to the people behind them writing and arranging the songs, playing the music, etc. so if we're talking about them collectively then I would definitely agree.

If we're talking Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard/Cindy Birdsong then not so much. They were fine singers and performers but Barry Gordy could have taken a lot of girl groups and probably had the same level of success with the quality of that material.

I am not trying to minimize their talents because they were great but they weren't songwriters or musicians and so I wouldn't compare them to acts that were. Just my opinion...

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

My answer was the correct answer btw

 

[Godsbrother]

But who were the influences for most of these great British rock bands? Black American blues singers, that's who. From the guy on my avatar to Skip James to Muddy Waters to Elmore James, etc, without them there's no Who or Zeppelin or Stones or Clapton. Without Chuck Berry and Little Richard there's no Beatles. Without rockabilly there's no Clash.

The British are great copiers when it comes to music. They've done rock better than anyone else, arguably, but very little is original.

True although the Beatles were also heavily influenced by Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Elvis and many other American acts like Peggy Lee believe it or not.

 

[Godsbrother]

Wow. I don't even know where to begin. you guys sound like a bunch of snobs. Reminds me of the guy in the Harvard bar in Good Will Hunting that Matt Damon tears apart.

Just listen to the music, man. Peace and love.

Agreed. It all subjective anyway...

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Not sure why you're getting so much push back here. Some great individual artists (Dylan, Hendrix, James Brown, Springsteen, Petty), but American bands don't come close to the best from across the pond.

The Beatles

Stones

Zeppelin

The Who

The Kinks

Cream

Pink Floyd

Sabbath

Queen

The Clash

Not close.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Growing up I remember my sister's copy of Hit Parader had a poll asking who was better, The Monkees or The Beatles.

The Monkees won, so the USA always has that going for them.

 

[Godsbrother]

Growing up I remember my sister's copy of Hit Parader had a poll asking who was better, The Monkees or The Beatles.

The Monkees won, so the USA always has that going for them.

I still love the Monkees. They weren't a real group except for one album but they actually performed, wrote and produced a fair amount of their music.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Growing up I remember my sister's copy of Hit Parader had a poll asking who was better, The Monkees or The Beatles.

The Monkees won, so the USA always has that going for them.

I still love the Monkees. They weren't a real group except for one album but they actually performed, wrote and produced a fair amount of their music.

And they were 75% American.

 

[17seconds]

Why are so many of the greatest rock groups predominantly British?

The ones I've seen listed in this thread are actually 100% British.

 

[Brony]

Growing up I remember my sister's copy of Hit Parader had a poll asking who was better, The Monkees or The Beatles.

The Monkees won, so the USA always has that going for them.

I still love the Monkees. They weren't a real group except for one album but they actually performed, wrote and produced a fair amount of their music.

And they were 75% American monkee.

FYP

 

[Parrothead]

Just listen to the music, man. Peace and love.

Doobie Brothers!

 

[Eephus]

1. The dole

2. British art schools

3. UK music press

4. Geography

The decline of 1-3 corresponds to the loss of influence of the English music industry.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Probably because they grew up in England.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Why are so many of the greatest rock groups predominantly British?

The ones I've seen listed in this thread are actually 100% British.

Jimi Hendrix Experience was only 66.66% British.

 

[Godsbrother]

Why are so many of the greatest rock groups predominantly British?

The ones I've seen listed in this thread are actually 100% British.

Jimi Hendrix Experience was only 66.66% British.

And 33.33% American. What about the missing 0.01%?

 

[DocHolliday]

The Stones and Who bore me to tears. However, it does certainly seem as though the greatest rock bands are from GB. No US band can touch the Beatles, Sabbath or Floyd.