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Why isn't Myles Garrett being criminally charged? (1 Viewer)

TheIronSheik said:
Well, now I think you're just "lawyering it up" here.  That's a completely different scenario.  In real life, yes, I would agree.  In football, guys go after each other all of the time, jaw at each other, push each other, punch each other's helmets (for some stupid reason)... and that's all fine.  You do that in real life, different story.

There's no way Garrett was worried for his life so he decided to act in self defense.  That's ridiculous.
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Self-defense law requires the response to match the level of the threat in question. In other words, a person can only employ as much force as required to remove the threat. If the threat involves deadly force, the person defending themselves can use deadly force to counteract the threat.

I'm not saying that Garret didn't employ more force than required to remove the threat. What I am saying is that Garret didn't need to be worried for his life to be acting in self defense. The fact that Rudolph was chasing him while he was being held by two of Rudolph's teammates is a situation that justifies some force of self defense.  

 
I think Mitch Truibisky should be charged with a crime. The balls he throws over the middle are so bad he is going to cause serious injury. 

 
Politician Spock said:
Self-defense law requires the response to match the level of the threat in question. In other words, a person can only employ as much force as required to remove the threat. If the threat involves deadly force, the person defending themselves can use deadly force to counteract the threat.

I'm not saying that Garret didn't employ more force than required to remove the threat. What I am saying is that Garret didn't need to be worried for his life to be acting in self defense. The fact that Rudolph was chasing him while he was being held by two of Rudolph's teammates is a situation that justifies some force of self defense.  
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And again, I'm saying that's crap.  So anytime an NFL player comes at another player, it's acceptable for that player to take action up to and including hitting that player in the head with a helmet?  

If a bench clearing brawl breaks out in baseball, it's cool to bring a bat and swing on anyone coming at you?  C'mon.  Let's be serious, GB.

 
The Noid said:
What if this were two dudes in a sporting goods store on Black Friday, in a heated argument and pushing and shoving over who gets the last pair of Air Jordans, and one grabs a regulation football helmet off the shelf and smashes the other guy's head? You'd see a charge there 100% of the time, so it makes sense this would/could. 
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But wouldn't both parties be charged?  The guy who was hit would also be charged with disorderly conduct at least no?  Obviously the guy doing the hitting would be looking at more severe charges.

 
Pipes said:
But wouldn't both parties be charged?  The guy who was hit would also be charged with disorderly conduct at least no?  Obviously the guy doing the hitting would be looking at more severe charges.
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Sure. But what happened on the field prior to the helmet thing happens every game and doesn't really qualify as disorderly conduct. If two guys did everything else (without the helmet thing) in a church, yeah, but on a football field during a game, it's pretty normal. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
And again, I'm saying that's crap.  So anytime an NFL player comes at another player, it's acceptable for that player to take action up to and including hitting that player in the head with a helmet?  

If a bench clearing brawl breaks out in baseball, it's cool to bring a bat and swing on anyone coming at you?  C'mon.  Let's be serious, GB.
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Again, I'm not saying that Garret didn't employ more force than required to remove the threat. He is however allowed to employ force that matched the level of the threat in question.

He tackled Rudolph legally, but Rudolph was pissed about being tackled because he threw the ball away (in a way Garrett could not have known happened, which is why the ref did not flag Garret for tackling Rudolph). At that point Rudolph attacked Garrett by trying to rip off his helmet, to which Garrett responded with the same force (rip off Rudolph's helmet). Two of Rudolph's teammates then got involved by grabbing Garrett and Rudolph started chasing Garret. This escalated the force beyond helmet yanking. 

Again I'm not saying that Garrett was justified in swinging the helmet at Rudolph's head, but the situation was escalated TWICE by the Steelers. Garret's first response was legally justified by self defense law given Rudolph tried to rip off Garret's helmet first (though the ref threw the flag at Garrett for succeeding when Rudolph didn't). Garrets second response is probably NOT justified by self defense law, but that isn't clear cut. It's pretty questionable given again three Steelers were the ones escalating the use of force. 

 
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Sometimes things just go too far.  And everyone knows it.

When I was a doorman at a nice club in Houston, at the end of the night we were throwing out a rowdy bunch.  There were 4 of us from the bar (3 doormen and a barback).  And there were 4 rowdy customers.  We spilled out onto the sidewalk and both sides kept jawing at each other.  It was definitely going to end in a large brawl.  Then a rock came flying over our heads and landed between the other 4 guys.  All 7 of us stopped and turned around to see the barback looking at us with another rock in his hand.  We were all like, "Dude.  Not cool.  Why are you throwing a rock?"  He slowly dropped the rock and said sorry.  

If nothing else, it calmed everyone down for just long enough that the rowdy drunks decided just to leave.  We all know the line you don't cross.  Throwing rocks and hitting people in the head with a helmet are big no-nos. 

 
i find the problem that so many are happy, if not excited, for the chance to pass judgement on an entertainer who gets carried away during violent contest, when they never invest such fervor in any other aspect of human justice, to be far more troubling than last nite's events

 
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AAABatteries said:
Wow - indefinite suspension?  How many games do you think he eventually serves?
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1 less than the longest anyone has missed for domestic violence (not counting Ray Rice, who missed infinity games for his.)

Won't be a good look for the NFL if it can be said they find hitting a man more punishable than hitting a woman. So their weak responses to domestic violence against women in the past will wind up benefiting Garrett, unfortunately. 

 
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wikkidpissah said:
i find the problem that so many are happy, if not excited, for the chance to pass judgement on an entertainer who gets carried away during violent contest, when they never invest such fervor in any other aspect of human justice, to be far more troubling than last nite's events
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Can you unpack this a little more, GB.  I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying.

 
The Noid said:
1 less than the longest anyone has missed for domestic violence (not counting Ray Rice, who missed infinity games for his.)

Won't be a good look for the NFL if it can be said they find hitting a man more punishable than hitting a woman. So their weak responses to domestic violence against women in the past will wind up benefiting Garrett, unfortunately. 
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To be fair, Ray Rice was just defending himself with adequate force to defend himself.

 
AAABatteries said:
Wow - indefinite suspension?  How many games do you think he eventually serves?
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If he shows remorse after this season and agrees to participate in some kind of program, I think he'll be reinstated and only miss the remaining games this season.

 
dgreen said:
If he shows remorse after this season and agrees to participate in some kind of program, I think he'll be reinstated and only miss the remaining games this season.
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Agreed.  Much like everything in life, I don't think he'll be judged by his actions in the moment, but by his actions afterwards.  Does he seem remorseful?  Does he seem genuinely sorry?  Does he understand what he did?

If he says all the right things, I think he's back playing next year.  He just has to make sure he's an angel for at least a year after coming back.

 
TheIronSheik said:

And again, I'm saying that's crap. So anytime an NFL player comes at another player, it's acceptable for that player to take action up to and including hitting that player in the head with a helmet?
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Who said it was acceptable? Any player in that situation is going to be penalized and suspended.
 
Andy Dufresne said:
You're doing it again.
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I thought we were clear that that was, if not intentional, central to my manner of communication. To at least some extent, i express myself in a tertiary fashion - one which weeds out those whose responses aren't likely to interest me.

Back on subject, we have an old saying up here in Vermont "The more judgment folks use on others, the less they use on themselves"

 
wikkidpissah said:
i find the problem that so many are happy, if not excited, for the chance to pass judgement on an entertainer who gets carried away during violent contest, when they never invest such fervor in any other aspect of human justice, to be far more troubling than last nite's events
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I don't think you've even looked at the pet peeves thread.

 
dgreen said:
If he shows remorse after this season and agrees to participate in some kind of program, I think he'll be reinstated and only miss the remaining games this season.
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Assuming neither the Raiders nor the Browns make the playoffs, it seems likely then that Burfict will end up with a 12 game suspension (w/out pay) and Garrett will get 6.

 
wikkidpissah said:
i find the problem that so many are happy, if not excited, for the chance to pass judgement on an entertainer who gets carried away during violent contest, when they never invest such fervor in any other aspect of human justice, to be far more troubling than last nite's events
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Thank you.

 
Henry Ford said:
I'd feel more like it should happen if Rudolph hadn't been chasing him down, shouting, and grabbing at him while he was being held by a Steelers lineman and the refs were separating them and trying to stop the whole thing.  That's when Garrett swung.
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I agree.  While what Garrett did was disgusting, bush league and uncalled for-- it does seem like Rudolph is getting a bit of an undeserved pass here.   Looked to me like Rudolph initially tried to rip Garrett's helmet off----he certainly was an active participant if not the instigator of the entire event---he definitely was not an innocent bystander.   It still doesn't excuse Garrett's actions--but I have to say that I don't think that Rudolph should be completely absolved for his actions either.   

 
What was the point of tackling him with seconds left in the game where they've won anyway? That's probably what Rudolph was angry about in going after him. But Garrett took it to another level that could have caused brain injury, and perhaps may have.

 
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CurlyNight said:
What was the point of tackling him with seconds left in the game where they've won anyway? That's probably what Rudolph was angry about in going after him. But Garrett took it to another level that could have caused brain injury, and perhaps may have.
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What was the point of throwing a pass with seconds left in the game when they couldn’t win?

 
Henry Ford said:
I apologize. On review, the second time he punched him in the head. 
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With all the chaos, most news media are reporting Pouncey kicking repeatedly, not sure why they are.   I even thought he did until I watched the video a few times.  If Garrett’s helmet was off, I would want Pouncey to get a much stiffer suspension.  But since the only one who would get injured by Pouncey punching Garrett on his helmet (not his head) is Pouncey, a think a 3 game suspension is pretty fair.

 
Walking Boot said:
I think Rudolph was reacting to Garrett trying to wrap him up and throw him down a good four seconds after the ball was away. Garrett got there late, after the pass was thrown, and still made contact, wouldn't let go, and forced Rudolph to the ground. That was a late hit and roughing the passer already. Rudolph's hands on Garrett's helmet came from that. Garrett is still more the instigator because of the late hit that caused Rudolph's reaction that caused Garrett's even worse decision.
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The bolded is not true at all, and is why the ref didn't throw a flag for a late hit. There's no way Garrett could have known Rudolph threw the ball. For all Garrett knew, Rudolph still had the ball. 

 
Politician Spock said:
The bolded is not true at all, and is why the ref didn't throw a flag for a late hit. There's no way Garrett could have known Rudolph threw the ball. For all Garrett knew, Rudolph still had the ball. 
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Garrett tackling Rudolph didn’t look dirty at all to me,  it kinda of looks like Garrett makes an effort not to use his full body weight when taken Rudolph to the ground.  I was expecting Rudolph to get a 1 game suspension for his part.  Still feel Garrett needs at least a 10 to 16 game suspension for his actions.

 
Kevrunner said:
Garrett tackling Rudolph didn’t look dirty at all to me,  it kinda of looks like Garrett makes an effort not to use his full body weight when taken Rudolph to the ground.  I was expecting Rudolph to get a 1 game suspension for his part.  Still feel Garrett needs at least a 10 to 16 game suspension for his actions.
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Oh, Garrett absolutely deserves the bigger punishment. But Rudolph should also be getting at least a one game suspension. Hard to tell, but it looks like he tried to kick Garrett in the nuts while they were still on the ground, and there's also an argument that Rudolph punched Garrett in the nuts as well after they got up but before Garrett swung his helmet. 

There was no innocent party here.  

 
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Politician Spock said:
Oh, Garrett absolutely deserves the bigger punishment. But Rudolph should also be getting at least a one game suspension. Hard to tell, but it looks like he tried to kick Garrett in the nuts while they were still on the ground, and there's also an argument that Rudolph punched Garrett in the nuts as well after they got up but before Garrett swung his helmet. 

There was no innocent party here.  
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Photos

 
any attorney worth a $1500 retainer gets Garrett off on all charges (except maybe disorderly conduct) IMHO

2 men fighting - debatable who starts it ..... 1 men retreats, then another third man engages him physically, the original second man from the encounter engages him physically - now 2 vs 1 with the 2 being the aggressors and a fourth man who is an associate of the other 2  is approaching .....

so 2 vs 1 with the likely hood of soon being 3 vs 1 ...... if this was a bar fight, or black Friday in a sporting goods store -- and it was 3 vs 1  i think a lot of people would see it very differently 

NFL does NOT want this to go to court because there is a fair chance that by Ohio assault laws this would be deemed self-defense ....the weapon was used while he was engaged with 2 individuals with a third approaching as he attempted to retreat  - if Garrett felt afraid for his personal safety he is allowed to use the weapon to protect his well being from the aggressors (the kicking and punching by the third once close enough could be used to justify his claim of needing to protect himself from harm arguing that he was trying the free himself from the two so that he would not be victim of the third/ 3 vs 1 )

as an employee of the NFL Garrett is subject to the employers rules - but i think if this was outside a club in downtown CLE, you'd have 4 charges of disorderly conduct and nothing else after the dust settled.   :2cents:

Rudolph needs suspended as well. He just Eddie Haskell'ed the NFL into believing he was an innocent victim with zero accountability for his actions

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Assuming neither the Raiders nor the Browns make the playoffs, it seems likely then that Burfict will end up with a 12 game suspension (w/out pay) and Garrett will get 6.
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Burfict has a long established track record of being the dirtiest player in the game, with no regard for the safety or well being of his opponents. Garrett has a history of open hand slapping an opponent. He also has a history of getting sucker punched in the face by a “fan” and not retaliating. IMO, Garrett is not an inherently dirty player. Burfict should be permabanned. Garrett should serve 8 or so games, and have the opportunity to disprove the narrative that this incident makes him unworthy of playing in the league (and I think he will).

 
shadyridr said:
Rudolph isn't hurt and not pressing charges so he shouldn't be charged. Let the NFL handle it. 
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All states are different. In Ohio, the people don't choose whether or not to press charges. That right belongs to the prosecutor. Even if the victim does not want charges pressed, they can't do anything to stop a prosecutor from charging them. The prosecutor has a duty to charge anyone that can be proven committed a crime. If the video shows a crime has been committed, he has a duty to press charges. 

 
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CurlyNight said:
What was the point of tackling him with seconds left in the game where they've won anyway? That's probably what Rudolph was angry about in going after him. But Garrett took it to another level that could have caused brain injury, and perhaps may have.
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There was no need for him to run a play if the game was not winnable.  He could have taken a knee and let the clock run out. Rudolph is the one that decided to run a meaningless play--which forced the opposing team to play defense.  It very much looked to me that he was the first person to try to rip off somebodies helmet in the scuffle and the only reason he is not getting negative press is that he was unsuccessful in his attempt to rip Garrets helmet off.  Not only was he an active participant in starting the event---he certainly did nothing to de-escalate things once they did get started.   I'm not defending Garrett here as what he did was beyond disgusting--but Rudolph was absolutely guilty in playing a part in what transpired.   Rudolph should have absolutely gotten a shorter suspension in my opinion. 

 
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