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Why no minority hirings? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Csonka4life
- Start date
They won, but that was one risky call.
Warsteinner
Footballguy
I'm sick of people always bashing the NFL over this. How many black NHL coaches are there?
dgreen
Footballguy
Both sides tend to not listen to other side in race discussions. As someone who doesn't assume racism in most situations, I see the unwillingness to entertain the idea that it isn't racism as extremely annoying. The main thing I hear is that there were x white coaches and only y black coaches, therefore there's racism. Then, when someone suggests that maybe something else is going on, people jump down their throat.Could it be racism? Yes. Could it be something else? Yes. Could it be a mixture of racism and something else? Yes.
I would agree with this. I have never understood the thing about trying to match percentages in a sport to some sort of arbitrary percentages somewhere else. Why would it matter what percentage of the players are black? Coaches who have not played in the NFL are not qualified to coach? Why would it matter what the general population percentage is? Coaches somehow have to match the general population?
I agree with Maurile in that what matters is that the minority coaches are getting a fair shake and opportunity.
Fortunately, because there is such a gigantic emphasis on winning at virtually any cost that supercedes everything else, the best candidates are likely to be hired regardless of what color they are.
J
bagger.
The One Play Quiz
Do you think that minority coaches are getting a fair shake? If so are they just not as smart as the white coaches to progress up the coaching ranks?Again I really don't have an issue with the # of head coaches who are a minority, but there is a huge discrepency in the pool of qualified minority candidates at the assistant level compared to white assistants.
If the minorities are getting a fair shake why are they not becoming assistants? This is the question I have not heard an answer to.
Your last paragraph is pretty naive. Do you really think Al Davis hires the best coach that gives his team the best chance to win? No. He hires the coach that he can control that ultimately hurts his team but allows him to feed his ego.
There is a lot more than winning % that goes into the hiring process of a coach, and it is extremely naive to think that some owners out there don't factor in race.
CalBear
Footballguy
I don't think there are many owners (or colleges) who consciously factor race into their hiring decisions. However, I do think the perception of whites as smarter and blacks as more athletic is a real, measurable phenomenon that affects decisions at all levels. Whites are more likely to be perceived as "having what it takes" to be a coach. (Or, for that matter, to be a QB). This seems to be true even after there is clear evidence of them not having what it takes; look at who is filling coaching positions this year.
One thing I didn't see inthis whole discussion is that the makeup of the current NFL/college player pool is irrelevant. No current player is a coach.What is relevant is the ex-player pool. And that is based on the historical data, and moves as players retire. So, over time, you will get a more balanced pool over time as the athletes retire.
Like who? Let's name names instead of keeping everything in the abstract. Is there a particular minority who you think should become an assistant?(Not that it's relevant at all, but four of the eight position coaches with the Chargers are black. Are other teams much different? Is half too many? Not enough? I think the last two questions make sense only if you're explicitly taking race into account . . . which people shouldn't be. Nobody seriously complains that there are too few white cornerbacks in the NFL because race doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter for coaches, either. It seems to me that the people who are bringing race into the discussion have the burden of showing why it's relevant. The burden would be met by showing evidence of racism -- but is there any?)
I'm as big an Al Davis hater as there is, but I think that's at least slightly unfair to him. He's an old kook, possibly senile at this point, but I do think he cares about winning.Nonetheless, you are quite right that certain individual owners may have certain prejudices, including those relating to race. I don't think Al Davis is one of them, however.
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This is likely true in general. I haven't read the links you posted earlier in this thread, but if I get the chance I will. There was also an interesting study linked to in the FFA about a year ago in which businesses were sent resumes that were very similar in qualifications, but some had obviously black names and others had obviously white names. The white names got more interviews.So the perceptions you mention do seem to exist. I suspect they exist less in professional sports than in most other industries, though (since nearly everybody in the league -- coaches, personnel guys, etc. -- have been around minorities all their professional lives).
This is a good point, especially when you consider that current coaches are disproportionately made up of former QBs and offensive linemen.Twenty years ago, most QBs and offensive linemen were white. That's much less true now; so to the extent that today's QBs will be tomorrow's coaches, coaching demographics should change in the next ten years the same way that QB demographics have changed in the last ten.
bagger.
The One Play Quiz
This shift in racial makeup could be it. I thought it was assumed that the coaches of today were based on the players of 5-10+ years ago, which was the player pool we are discussing.However, I don't think that the racial make up of the NFL was drastically different than today, and definitely not representative of the racial make up of coaches today.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
I'll just toss this in the mix:Wonderlic scores by postion (average)Offensive tackles: 26Centers: 25Quarterbacks: 24Guards: 23Tight Ends: 22Safeties: 19Middle linebackers: 19Cornerbacks: 18Wide receivers: 17Fullbacks: 17Halfbacks: 16
We could look at what positions players played that became coaches. Soemthing tells me there aren't many guys who are currently coaching at the NFL level who played P or K. I'm having trouble thinking of more than a few RB's that are now coaching - although I'm sure you'll find ex RB's coaching RB's a bit.
Peep It Yo!
Footballguy
Maurile, I understand your point, but the argument and complaint that I continue to hear is the one that there are only 5 head coaches in the NFL and there are 32 teams. Many black leaders state that they are not getting fair representation and that there should be a more equal makeup of whites and blacks at the top of the ranks. From a straight statistical standpoint, their argument is flawed as they are fairly represented in terms of percentages. Now, if they wish to change their argument and change their tune, I am willing to support the cause. However, just to say that the number of whites and blacks aren't equal in terms of NFL head coaching positions, I say that with respect to the make-up of society...they are represented fairly.
dgreen
Footballguy
Let me get this straight. You're saying tall, big, agile guys (tackles) are smarter than short, muscular, fast guys (halfbacks)? Way to generalize. Open your eyes. Halfbacks aren't stupid because they're halfbacks and the fact that you think otherwise is pure ignorance on your part.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
I'm not saying anything. I quoted actual statistics. Draw from it your own conclusions.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Gotcha. Missed that one. :whoosh:Sorry, should've addedPoor attempt at humor.
Hi bagger,I disagree. I don't think it's naive at all. I think it's hard core reality. Al Davis of all people is the Just Win Baby guy.
I totally think the Black coaches thing is just like the black QB thing. The head coach / GM / Owner is so focused on winning that they're putting the guy on the field that will help them win. If Donovan McNabb is black or Ben Roethlisberger is white makes no difference when it comes picking the starting QB.
They are 100% prejudiced toward the guy that that gives them the best chance of winning. I think that's true throughout the team from running backs to quarterbacks to offensive cooridinators to head coaches.
J
Nihilist Pig
Footballguy
DING DING DING!Had to scroll through most of a page before somebody hit on the problem. The "problem" is with the media and the sense of entitlement minority leaders seem intent on drumming up.
Blacks are OVER-represented in NFL head coaching positions. Blacks make up a little better than 10% of the population, and have nearly 20% of the HC positions locked up. Claiming a racial inequity here implies that blacks are MORE entitled and MORE qualified for head coaching positions than white candidates.
I don't scream injustice when my favorite white cornerback can't even get drafted. But that's because I understand and appreciate that the talent pool of black athletes provides a group of candidates who, let's face it, are physically better at performing the tasks required than the white talent pool. As a white man, I have no trouble admitting that, and I respect the right of more physically talented group to earn what its members can in a free market.
But HC is not a physical job. It's a mental job. Now, the last thing I'm going to do is say that whites are better qualified for mental work. We're not. But these minority activist groups, by saying that HC positions should be going to a higher percentage of minority candidates relative to the general population, are saying that white men are less capable than black men of doing this mental work. This is racism, through and through.
Whites have accepted that the NFL is not going to be a racially-equal employment environment. Once the players are all accounted for, the NFL jobs and paychecks are going to be going disproportionately to minority employees. But when white strategists expect to receive proportional opportunity in a field for which they are perfectly well suited, they are told their policy of expected fair and proportional treatment is racist and unfair.
It's bull ####, and any person who can do simple math, no matter what race he his, should come out against this racist policy meant to force white candidates to play on an uneven playing field.
CalBear
Footballguy
Horse pucky. What percentage of the current coaches are former pro/college football players? A very high percentage; certainly over 80%. Given that coaches are being pulled from the ranks of former players, absent bias of one sort or another the coaching ranks would reflect about the same racial makeup as the player base.In addition, even though there are now six black head coaches in the NFL (for the first time ever, and only because of the Rooney Rule), the total number of black coaches in pro and college football is well below even the black representation in the general population. Last year in Division II, there wasn't a single black head coach outside of traditionally black universities (like Grambling).
Csonka4life
Footballguy
At the university level it's a joke really. I think there are 3 black head coaches and I'm not sure about hispanic.........
pinequick
Footballguy
Mmmm-hmmmm. So I guess there were practically no black quarterbacks that could help teams win in the 1960's, 70's, (or for the most part) 80's? Or do we look back at that timeframe now and think that something else was at work, rather than just the raw abilities of the players on the field?I think you have hit the nail on the had with that analogy.
Correct me if I'm wrong. Of the current NFL head coaches, only 7 played at the NFL level.**** Jauron, Tony Dungy, Jack Del Rio, Herm Edwards, Bill Cowher, Marty Schottenheimer, and Jeff Fisher. (I believe Sean Payton was a replacement player in '87 but that hardly counts.Just because you played the game and are familar with it does not mean you also posses the elite and unique abilities and talents it takes to coach at the Pro and NFL level. I don't think you are seeing my point. Simply knowing the game does not give you these specific talents. Yes, I see great coaches as possessing talent unique to what other, normal people posses. Also talent seperate of what it takes to simply play the game.Sure...but a massive component of being a good coach is knowing and understanding the game. If 95% of all coaches are former players, unless you can show reasonable evidence otherwise, it would seem logical that a relative percentage of those ex-players who WANT to be coaches are minorities [i.e,. far higher than 12-15%]...are we so myopic as to think that no minority coaches have been overlooked so the likes of Marty Morhinweg, John Shoop and **** Jauron are still employed?
Are you simply ignoring the fact that what you are saying is patently wrong and that it is obvious playing at the NFL level is important to coaching (due to the fact that the overwhelming majority are former players).
You keep on saying coaches don't need to be former players, and yet almost all of them are.
Who do you think is wrong here?
If you look at the bios of current head coaches, the most common thing I saw was that they went right into coaching upon graduation from college. Also less than half of them went to Div I colleges.
I'm not sure what the percentage is of minority college football players at all levels, but if the NFL reaches that level, there is really nothing to complain about.
Hi Pine,I can't speak for those times. I think much of that had to do with what the colleges were developing for the pros. Doug Williams and Warren Moon were more the exception than the rule as it is today.
I absolutely believe there was a time long ago when coaches and owners DID choose the white guy over the minority even if they thought the minority was better. But we got over that a long time ago. One could make the case that sports has led the way on putting ability over skin color.
But we're having this discussion based on the present.
Do you agree that teams will put color aside and pick the QB (or coach) they feel gives them the best chance to win? Or do you think they'll take the non minority when they really feel the minority guy would give them a better shot?
J
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CalBear
Footballguy
I believe that teams probably do what they believe to be in their best interests. However, I don't believe they always do what is in their best interests. (Just look at the Detroit Lions). I think that the ineffable "he's got what it takes to be a coach" that several people have invoked in this thread is, for some, partly predicated on a candidate looking like the archetype of a coach, which invokes almost entirely images of white guys. People are actually very bad at evaluating candidates in hiring processes; all sorts of biases and trivial things wind up influencing the decision. Studies have been done which show that most job interviews are over in the first 30 seconds; if you don't wow them on first impression, it's really hard to recover. I think it's foolish to believe that football owners and GMs are 100% rational in their decision-making with regard to coaching hires; there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Csonka4life
Footballguy
The world isn't a vacuum. Baseball had alot of black talent in the 70's and early 80's now it's drying up. I scarsely recally a cacausian outfielder(white or latino) who wasn't a journeyman in that period. Now many of the star outfielders are caucasian. Many great black players from that period could have been great NFLers but for various reasons played baseball. I suspect if baseball had less black talent in that era, the whole black qb issue would have ended 10 15 years earlier....... 
Yenrub
Footballguy
If this is true then the rule is a good thing.The rule is there to expose owners to a talent pool that clearly some of them were not willing (or at least not likely) to explore.
Here is a list of minority coaches interviewed this offseason
Art Shell, Jim Caldwell, Tim Lewis, Ted Cottrell, Donnie Henderson, Ron Rivera, Maurice Carthon, Jerry Gray and Greg Blache per the link below
Yahoo article
pinequick
Footballguy
I guess I'm not as optimistic as you--while times have changed, I certainly don't think that discrimination is a thing of the past.Winning in the NFL is king, to be sure. The team picks the person that they think is best. But I think that your hypothetical is best modified this way--if two guys come in for a job and are about equal, and the owner has to "go with his gut", go with whom he feels most comfortable--will race play a factor? I'm not willing to say that, as a society or the NFL as a sport, that we are past those considerations.
By the way, I'm not saying that this process makes NFL owners bad people. I'm a white guy. Guess what all of my friends look like? 99% white guys. It's not that I don't like people of other races--I certainly don't avoid or fear anyone who doesn't "look like me". I've been friendly with lots of folks of color. But when it comes to my close friends, the people with whom I have the most in common, who have shared my experiences, have similar backgrounds--it just happens that they are mostly white. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so--it just makes me human, and a product of my environment.
So I guess it isn't hard for me to imagine an NFL owner faced with a similar decision, when two candidates are close to the same level--certainly he will pick the one with whom he is most comfortable. And, based on my own experience, I could see how race might play a factor in that. Ultimately, it's his business and his choice--but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is fair to the minority candidate.
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John Maddens Lunchbox
Footballguy
I made a post a month ago, here.
Out of the 8 Black head coaches appointed so far, 7 had got their team into the playoffs within 3 years at their first coaching stint. The only one that hasn't is Romeo Crennel.
Both Denny Green and Ray Rhodes have been retreads and yet to make the playoffs at a 2nd club. Tony Dungy has.
For the topic at hand it looks like that the available pool of qualified minority coaches was quite shallow this year, but hey if Sean Payton can get a head coaching gig then anyone can.
From my own point of view with the odd exception it appears as those a minority coach has to jump through slightly more hoops before becoming a head coach, although there are any number of white head coaches this could be equally applied to eg Monte Kiffin, Gary Kubiak etc.
Marvin Lewis & Romeo Crennel definitely should have been head coaches before they were hired, but the same criteria could be applied to Charlie Weis.
No easy answers here, but first time Black head coaches have a terrific record so far.
Out of the 8 Black head coaches appointed so far, 7 had got their team into the playoffs within 3 years at their first coaching stint. The only one that hasn't is Romeo Crennel.
Both Denny Green and Ray Rhodes have been retreads and yet to make the playoffs at a 2nd club. Tony Dungy has.
For the topic at hand it looks like that the available pool of qualified minority coaches was quite shallow this year, but hey if Sean Payton can get a head coaching gig then anyone can.
From my own point of view with the odd exception it appears as those a minority coach has to jump through slightly more hoops before becoming a head coach, although there are any number of white head coaches this could be equally applied to eg Monte Kiffin, Gary Kubiak etc.
Marvin Lewis & Romeo Crennel definitely should have been head coaches before they were hired, but the same criteria could be applied to Charlie Weis.
No easy answers here, but first time Black head coaches have a terrific record so far.
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
I made the request earlier in the thread with no response, but I really like to see the record of the minority coaches hired post Rooney versus the record of white coaches hired post Rooney. I'm not sure that that alone would prove anything, but it would be interesting. I know there are some stat maniacs that could do it a lot easier than I could.
NattyDread
Footballguy
SYMPHONY X
Footballguy
Why no white RB's?
Gopher State
Footballguy
This is what you get with George Bush in the whitehouse 
Thanks pine.I am that optimistic that Wins are King. I think it boils down to that in this business. It's why there are a bunch of guys out of work this season and it'll be the same way next season. And with that much on the line, I think the guys making the calls will pick the guys for the jobs that give them the best chance of winning regardless of skin color.
J
Not Really Mel Kiper
Footballguy
Why should you have to hire a race? This country is going down hill fast, we worry to much....just give the best person the job regardless of race.
CalBear
Footballguy
If you think owners/GMs always make the choices which give them the best chance of winning, and are so focused on wins, answer two things:1) Why do some franchises continually lose? Presumably if Detroit is continually making the choices which give them the best chance of winning, they will eventually win.
2) Why do retread white coaches with losing records get new jobs?
I think there is quite a bit of evidence that the coaching market is not "efficient" in the economic sense.
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