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Why no minority hirings? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Csonka4life
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
After decades of race not being an issues, of people just hiring the best coach, of people not looking at the color of the coach, just looking at the skill of the coach... there were zero minority head coaches. You can dress up Barbie any way you like, but she's still just a little plastic doll. There has been an issue regarding coaching and related to race in the NFL for many years. And for many years teams used the exact same arguments as many posters in this thread. Then by some crazy twist of fate, several minority head coaches have had a great deal of success post Rooney rule. Was it just chance that these qualified and quality coaches happen to come along right after the Rooney rule? Or perhaps maybe the BS that the NFL teams were spouting for years about "hiring the best coach" and "not looking at skin color" was finally exposed? The truth likely lies somewhere in the the middle. But the success of minority coaches since the Rooney rule proves that things were not on the up and up previous to the rule. And that in fact teams were not just hiring the most qualified without regard to race. Comments like that sound great, but ignore the central issue.
NattyDread
Footballguy
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
I'm in favor of the Rooney rule, its a good check to the ol' boys network, however I don't know why we should expect the %age of black coaches in the NFL to exceed by any significant margin the %age of blacks in society at large.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
[Devil's Advocate]...because the majority of coaches are former players, where the percentage of minority [especially black] players is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the 12%-15%
Don Quixote
Footballguy
And **** Jauron (with his .400 career win percentage) gets his name added to the list of retread coaches who got a second chance, while Art Shell (with a .600 career win percentage) still sits at home.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
I know someone on this board knows the answer to the Art Shell question. I've always wondered why he never got another shot. When he was fired, I assumed that it was just a matter of time before he got another head coaching position and it's been a matter of a LONG time now. Anyone know the real on this?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Sure...but a massive component of being a good coach is knowing and understanding the game. If 95% of all coaches are former players, unless you can show reasonable evidence otherwise, it would seem logical that a relative percentage of those ex-players who WANT to be coaches are minorities [i.e,. far higher than 12-15%]...are we so myopic as to think that no minority coaches have been overlooked so the likes of Marty Morhinweg, John Shoop and **** Jauron are still employed?
jurb26
Footballguy
Just because you played the game and are familar with it does not mean you also posses the elite and unique abilities and talents it takes to coach at the Pro and NFL level. I don't think you are seeing my point. Simply knowing the game does not give you these specific talents. Yes, I see great coaches as possessing talent unique to what other, normal people posses. Also talent seperate of what it takes to simply play the game.Sure...but a massive component of being a good coach is knowing and understanding the game. If 95% of all coaches are former players, unless you can show reasonable evidence otherwise, it would seem logical that a relative percentage of those ex-players who WANT to be coaches are minorities [i.e,. far higher than 12-15%]...are we so myopic as to think that no minority coaches have been overlooked so the likes of Marty Morhinweg, John Shoop and **** Jauron are still employed?
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Csonka4life
Footballguy
Art Shell is a coach (or was), a line coach. I just don't think he has been given a legitimate shot since the Raiders...
Kai's Hero
Footballguy
I saw Don Blackmon took over as LBer coach for the zillionth time. IIRC He's coached the secondary, DL, and LBers since playing for the Pats. He was hired by BB and worked under Saban when he was the DC years ago.I'd like to see him get some HC interviews certainly has the experience and worked under some gems as seems to be required. Only prob is I don't have any glowing praise to say about his work as a positional coach. If a coaching candidate wasn't an OC or DC then he's gotta be an especially good positional coach IMO.I noticed that alot of young hungry guys have been hired to be head coaches but not one black or latino coach has been hired? Are the GM's up to their old tricks.......
Anyhow, I figured he was a good one to throw out there for discussion
Pnishthm
Footballguy
I think a big part of the problem is ...what have any of the black coaches won? No black head football coach has won a championship in the pro or college level. There are some very solid black coaches, but until one of them reaches that next step and wins a championship, we will continue to see more of the same. I don't think it will be long before someone like Dungy or Lewis wins a Super Bowl and THAT is what will open the doors for more black head coaches in both the college and pro levels. Getting over that last hump will go a long way into the process of more minority hirings. Just my opinion.
CalBear
Footballguy
Certainly, not all former athletes have what it takes to be a coach, but unless you're suggesting that white athletes are more likely to have what it takes than black athletes (and I don't think there's any evidence for that), it really doesn't matter; the percentage of black former athletes who are now coaches (at all levels) should still logically be in the same neighberhood as the percentage of black former athletes, if there is not some bias working against them.
Futeki
Footballguy
Look at it in another perspective... In the past minorities had to outperform their white counterparts to be considered "equal". Now, in the NFL, white players are the "minority". For a white player to make it through the prejudice in sports at all levels and into the pros, they had to be better than their black counterpart to be considered "equal". Perhaps then, the white players that make it in the NFL truly are better equipped to become coaches? It goes both ways...However, the make-up of NFL head coaches should more likely (naturally) resemble that of industry leaders with a slant towards the make-up of the league. NFL franchises are big business. Therefore, the previous statement about 18% of head coaches being black while 12-15% of the US being black sounds about right. Head coaching and playing are simply too divergent. Great head coaches are a rare talent. As to why 95% are former players, you may be able to find this rare talent without the person ever being a former pro player, but why bother when you can have both? [i certainly wanted my wife to be pretty, smart, and to have a great personality. If she isn't pretty, I can write her off right away. It doesn't mean the other things don't matter. I simply want to have it all!] That said, I do feel the makeup of positional coaches should resemble the make-up of the league. The best players would know the details of playing a particular position. It is not too unlike playing. Offensive Cooridinators and Defensive Coordinators would fall somewhere between the positional coaches and Head Coaches.
To the racists out there, I am certain my objectiveness makes me a racist. No need to point it out, it is already noted.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Nobody wanted to touch this one, eh?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
It was not a joke. Am I supposed to believe that of all the athletes in all of the world at all levels, not ONE white athlete is good enough to be a starting RB in the NFL?
I'm very interested in the answer.
If the answer is "No. There's not ONE talented enough.", then why can't that same argument be brought to other areas of our society?
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
Okay.. There are certainly white athletes that could play RB in the NFL with the proper experience in the position. But it's not like there are tons of white RBs at the Senior Bowl every year and the NFL just doesn't give them a shot. The NFL draws players almost exclusively from the NCAA. And there aren't many white RB options available to them. If you want to argue that white athletes aren't given as much of a chance at becoming RBs at the high school level I will agree with you. I'd liken that argument to the statement Michael Jordan made years ago about white basketball players getting over looked when colleges come recruiting. I'd give that argument some merit.
But when it comes to coaches the NFL is in control of hiring position coaches, OCs/DCs, and head coaches. They draw almost all of their head coaches from their own ranks of coaches. So it is more fair to hold the NFL accountable for minority hiring of coaches than to hold them accountable for hiring white RBs.
boubucarow
Footballguy
It does not go both ways. Minorities in the past had to outperform their white counterparts because almost nobody wanted them to succeed within the society at large. They had to overcome racism that was both hidden and out in the open whether it surfaced in the community, the school, or their own team. The prejudice that Wally Sczerbiak or Drew Bennett had to overcome does not even come close to the challenges that minorities in the past had to overcome. I am so sure the Reddick's jump shot had to be proven more because he was white and that he has had to deal with more than Salim Stoudamire to prove himself a quality player.I am sorry, if a white guy and run really fast like Tim Dwight, he will get a job just as easy or difficult as Michael Lewis. My guess is that he will probably get it easier.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I think we're both on the same page here. FWIW, I'm fine with there being no white RBs, etc. starting at those positions. I think the most talented athletes end up at those positions. If they happen to have a higher melanin content in their skin, so be it.
As far as coaches go, there are only 32 spots available in the WHOLE OF THE UNIVERSE. The fact that there is such intense competition for those spots means that those most qualified (theoretically, depends on the GM) get those positions. And while African-Americans comprise approximately 13% of the population as a whole, but 18% (6 of 32) of all NFL head coaches are African-Americans, I'd say the NFL is actually out front in terms of race hiring.
jurb26
Footballguy
I totally agree. I don't really see why so many believe that having simply played in the NFL is a near birthright to coaching in it. The talent and skill set is far different for the 2 jobs. Sure, there is a link between the 2 in that we know those who played the game most likely love it and share a passion for it. That does not however guarantee them the specific skills necessary to succeed as a NFL coach though. I would love for all of these peole clammoring about how there are so many minority players and so few minority coaches to create a list of the transferable skills between the 2 jobs and where you think they should rank in the overall effectivness of coaching. Maybe then I'll buy the arguement.
boubucarow
Footballguy
The numbers really don't matter in and of themselves. The main question is whether the NFL's racist past is truly behind them. It is not a big problem that all vacant coaching positions were filled by white men (not including the Herm shift). But of course, it is possible that some owners/gms still might hire a less qualified white candidate for whatever reasoning they have, they had done so for years in coaching (Marvin Lewis not getting a job) and even more so in players (pre-african american MLB). As a league, the NFL needs to continue to monitor the situation and ensure as much as possible the equality of the hiring procedures.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I can agree with that. But consider this...If an organization truly was racist (demonstrated by not hiring a qualified candidate based on race alone) and people were really concerned about it, wouldn't it be something to see the players of said team refuse to play?
I liken it to the Cincinnati Reds situation with Marge Schott. Seems she had a race problem too. But that didn't stop the players from showing up at the door for the paycheck.
My point is that, while race certainly is still a source of concern, people only pay lip service to their concerns and then only when it's their particular ox being gored.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Because it makes you sound morally superior when you say so and it's hard to refute otherwise, which reinforces your feelings of correctness.
bagger.
The One Play Quiz
I'm not blaming anything. It is a fact that there are not nearly the amount of minority staff throughout the NFL. This issue is changing, and quite frankly will result in more QUALIFIED minority head coaches in a few years, they just need to work their way up the ranks.
Maybe if the NFL would require atheletes to get a degree while they are in school more people would be qualified to coach. Coaches are leaders and I do not believe leaders are people who drop out of school to go after money. I know I wouldn't vote for a president who dropped out of college. Speaking of colleges, I believe this is where the problem lies. To many colleges let these kids go with a free pass not to learn anything in school just so they can pad their bank accounts using the kids football abliliy. Colleges should help the atheletes learn something that will benefit them after they are done playing sports like leadership classes or even some kind of class that will help them become coaches after they are done playing. These class could be taught by former pro or college coaches.As far as the coaching changes this year. It is a syptom, not the problem, you need to fix the problem before the syptom will go away. And I believe the problem lies with making our youth atheletes (white or black) better educated so they can have a better future.just my 2 cents
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Problems such as the ones we are discussing both in and out of football are not changed overnight. What's important is that the NFL recognized that there was a problem, took steps to help improve the situation, and continues to monitor the progress they are making. I don't think that if there are no new minority head coaches hired this off season it means that the current system isn't working. But it does give reason to continue to keep a close watch on hiring practices.
bagger.
The One Play Quiz
Just because you played the game and are familar with it does not mean you also posses the elite and unique abilities and talents it takes to coach at the Pro and NFL level. I don't think you are seeing my point. Simply knowing the game does not give you these specific talents. Yes, I see great coaches as possessing talent unique to what other, normal people posses. Also talent seperate of what it takes to simply play the game.Sure...but a massive component of being a good coach is knowing and understanding the game. If 95% of all coaches are former players, unless you can show reasonable evidence otherwise, it would seem logical that a relative percentage of those ex-players who WANT to be coaches are minorities [i.e,. far higher than 12-15%]...are we so myopic as to think that no minority coaches have been overlooked so the likes of Marty Morhinweg, John Shoop and **** Jauron are still employed?
Are you simply ignoring the fact that what you are saying is patently wrong and that it is obvious playing at the NFL level is important to coaching (due to the fact that the overwhelming majority are former players).You keep on saying coaches don't need to be former players, and yet almost all of them are.
Who do you think is wrong here?
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Coaching in the NFL doesn't equal playing in the NFL and you can't use that as a barometer either.My basic point is if you begin from the premise that all men are created equal (which we know is false, everyone is different, but for the sake of argument, lets assume that all races will approximately have equal percentages of morons and geniuses and every intelligence level in between), then given that assumption, prior to the inclusion of any other factors, you would expect, in a true meritocracy, that the number of black head coaches in the NFL would closely approximate society at large.
Now, from that starting point, you have to factor in a number of other variables, such as desire and experience. This will bump up the number SOME towards a greater minority presence, due to a greater minority presence among the playing rank...however the calculus works in THIS direction. (General expectation to track society at large and then add other variables) It does not follow that you should begin with or expect anything close to the percentage of minority players.
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