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Why no minority hirings? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Csonka4life
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I know this discussion is about race but...lighten up.Because it makes you sound morally superior when you say so and it's hard to refute otherwise, which reinforces your feelings of correctness.
You really pegged me there.
jurb26
Footballguy
You have still failed to see my point. Care to make that list I suggested?Just because you played the game and are familar with it does not mean you also posses the elite and unique abilities and talents it takes to coach at the Pro and NFL level. I don't think you are seeing my point. Simply knowing the game does not give you these specific talents. Yes, I see great coaches as possessing talent unique to what other, normal people posses. Also talent seperate of what it takes to simply play the game.Sure...but a massive component of being a good coach is knowing and understanding the game. If 95% of all coaches are former players, unless you can show reasonable evidence otherwise, it would seem logical that a relative percentage of those ex-players who WANT to be coaches are minorities [i.e,. far higher than 12-15%]...are we so myopic as to think that no minority coaches have been overlooked so the likes of Marty Morhinweg, John Shoop and **** Jauron are still employed?Are you simply ignoring the fact that what you are saying is patently wrong and that it is obvious playing at the NFL level is important to coaching (due to the fact that the overwhelming majority are former players).
You keep on saying coaches don't need to be former players, and yet almost all of them are.
Who do you think is wrong here?
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
While you may be right that the overwhelming majority of coaches are former players, you are still wrong.
Just a note: a lot of HC have not played in the NFL. I looked this up once a couple years ago, so it may have changed a lot. Most coaches have playing experience in college. Some have NFL experience. Only a few were real stand outs in the NFL. I think Charlie Weis was the only coach I found who did not have an NFL or college playing experience.Also, if you look at the potential pool of coaches as being all college players, the racial mix is probably closer to 50-50 there.
Warsteinner
Footballguy
A common view shared by many: Black athletes > white athletes, for the most part. Another common view: Role player or lesser athlete makes a better coach than superstar superior athlete.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I don't think there's any question of this. Nor do I think it's racist to say so.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
As you vehemently stated that there are not enough minority coaches in the league, I say that what you believe are the qualifications are precisely the point.
dgreen
Footballguy
That was my thinking. Here are all the coaches at the beginning of this season:Bill Cowher Pittsburgh
Jeff Fisher Tennessee
Mike Shanahan Denver
Brian Billick Baltimore
Mike Holmgren Seattle
Mike Sherman Green Bay
Bill Bellichick New England
Jim Haslett New Orleans
Andy Reid Philadelphia
Mike Martz St. Louis
**** Vermeil Kansas City
Herman Edwards NY Jets
John Fox Carolina
Dom Capers Houston
Tony Dungy Indianapolis
Mike Tice Minnesota
Marty Schottenheimer San Diego
Jon Gruden Tampa Bay
Marvin Lewis Cincinnati
Bill Parcells Dallas
Steve Mariucci Detroit
Jack Del Rio Jacksonville
Dennis Green Arizona
Jim Mora Jr. Atlanta
Mike Mularkey Buffalo
Lovie Smith Chicago
Tom Coughlin NY Giants
Norv Turner Oakland
Joe Gibbs Washington
Romeo Crennel Cleveland
Nick Saban Miami
Mike Nolan San Francisco
Anyone care to take a stab at where they played in the NFL? Most of them, at best, had a cup of coffee. And, that experience had nothing to do with why they are coaches. They entered the NFL as a player because of their talent in one special area of football, whether that be LB, OL, TE, whatever. One player's ability and knowledge of being a TE in no way translates to them being a good leader and knowledgeable about the entire game. Once their playing career was over, whether that be after 2 NFL seasons or a college senior, they jumped into a low-level college coaching position and worked their way up.
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bagger.
The One Play Quiz
Having that cup of coffee is EXACTLY why they are coaches. Life is all about networking. By having a cup of coffee in the NFL they established relationships with people in positions to hire coaching staff.With the exception of a very small minority, all coaches have played significant college ball and a little NFL ball.
Nobody has argued the point that coaches were good NFL players. Just that they were in fact players.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I will say this, over time this problem WILL fix itself, by virtue of a generational changeover in the ownership base. Racial viewpoints are inherently shaped by one's life experiences and, whether you think I'm generalizing or not, you're far more likely to harbor racist viewpoints if you're an 80-year old white man than you are a 40-year old white man. That's just a byproduct of which era you grew up in. I'm far less racially biased than my father and his generational counterparts, and they were MUCH less racially biased than his father [my grandfather] and his contemporaries.As NFL owners become the 30, 40 and 50 year olds, there won't be a systemic proclivity toward discounting the merits of a candidate because of their skin color.
Unfortunately, I think we as a society can do better than to let that happen over a 15-20 year time period by making the world conscious of the problem, and forcing those in power to look themselves in the mirror.
jurb26
Footballguy
So, you're telling us that you are admittedly out of the loop so to say. How then are you so qualified to cry wolf in regards to minority hiring? As you said, you're perception does not matter. You are flat out telling us now that it is the GM's qualifications that matter. You don't know what they are. So how do you now that anyone is being unfairly evaluated or passed up seeing that you don't even know what the hiring criteria is to begin with?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Dude, you're not even following your own conversation.You answered this question:
with this reply:
We're asking you what qualifications the current minority head coaching prospects have that are being overlooked.You're avoiding the answer.
Ksquared
Footballguy
I don't have the time ( maybe someone else does 
), but I checked three teams coaching staffs and almost half have no pro experience. It would be interesting for someone to check the coaching staffs of all the teams and see how many have no pro experience. Two things are at play here -#1 - The percentage of athletes in college is probably 60% white to 40% minority when you look at Div II and Div I. (I included Div II since two NFL coaches from the staffs I just looked at came from Div II. Most of these players never have a chance at a pro career and they know it. They jump into the coaching circuit from the time they graduate and will have several years coaching experience before the NFL player even starts to look at coaching. This is the where the big advantage in the coaching tree - do you want to hire someone with alot of pro experience and little or no coaching experience, or do you hire the guy that has been coaching in college for 5+ years.
#2 Asst coaching is teaching and analyzing situations. To be a good coach you must do both. Many players can analyze situations well, but can they teach that to their players? As a high school coach and ex teacher there are some people that can teach something they have very little background in the subject because they can break it down into understandable parts. And then get the audience to understand how those parts fit together. This definitely not an automatic skill just because you are an explayer.
Editted to add - Dgreen already beat me to it
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bagger.
The One Play Quiz
What I am saying has been echoed by many insiders at to what the problem is.What we are discussing here is not what I think it takes to be a head coach, but why so few minority coaches are getting a shot at being a head coach.
You aren't able to argue the issue on its own merits and are trying to change the subject to argue the qualifications that I think make a good head coach. That has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.
I can easily turn the table on you and ask you since you are out of the loop how do you know there isn't a problem. If I follow your line of reasoning we will have gone nowhere.
So continue to parrot other posters who are actually taking the time to discuss the issue.
Get ready to hit that good posting smilie again...
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
You are terribly confused and confusing.
bagger.
The One Play Quiz
I'm not avoiding the answer.Idiot Boxer asked me what the exact % should be. I said I didn't know but that it should be higher, evidenced by the fact that the huge talent pool of minority players who want to be a head coach are being filtered out on a disproportionate basis as they make their way up the coaching ranks compared to white people.
What I think the qualifications are/should be have absolutely no bearing on this discussion.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
You're saying that qualified minority coaches aren't getting a shot at being a head coach but then you're not saying what qualifies them.That's confusing.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Out.
jurb26
Footballguy
How can you even begin to discuss why anyone is not being considered for a coaching job when you are not even willing to consider first what the qualifications might be? What are your "insiders" saying the qualifications are since you seem content to only aviod the question yourself. I'm sorry, but it is the qualifications that matter to me, not the skin color. If there are qualified people being passed up due to race, then yes we have a probelm (and I have never stated that there was or was not a problem). You don't even seem to care what the qualifications or reasoning may be. If you cannot even define what it takes to be a good coach, then how can you define a problem in hiring? Call me an idealist, but it is my belief that GMs today look to hire what they see as the most qualified person for the job. They have too much to loose to not do so. I trust that they are a better judge of that than me or you, outsiders.
nygiants56
Footballguy
psst..the NHL has far less minorty players AND coaches, you're barking up the wrong tree..start with the NHL, then come back!seriously, i agree with you that boneheads like Haslett and Chris Palmer , etc, don't deserve jobs at all..the system seems to be more suited for people who know you..Palmer worked with Parcells at one point i think, and worked with bellichick too, i think... so thats why he's getting a look in Big D this week..Haslett has (bad) head coaching experience, Mangini worked under bellichick, a system that is producing coaching stars everywhere ( weiss at ND, Crennel At Cleveland) so maybe thats what the Jets needed was a solid proven coach..lets be honest, herm edwards was lousy..39-41 record? pathetic. maybe thats why they went in another direction and got a young guy, who knows the winning formula?I noticed that alot of young hungry guys have been hired to be head coaches but not one black or latino coach has been hired? Are the GM's up to their old tricks.......
guys like mornhinweg get jobs from other head coaches because they obviously
a. know the system(WCO)
b. have coached together at some point in their careers ( Reid and Mornhinweg)
Carthon worked for Parcells as a player and as a coach..Crennel worked rfor parcells I believe, as a coach too..now Carthon works for Crennell..again, its familiarity..Mike McCarthy worked with Favre before as a QB coach, now McCarthy is the HC of the Packers. Nolan was an assistant under Norv Turner
in Washington..Turner gave Nolan a coaching opportunity, so he is returning the favor to Turner now in SF..
look at all of the Bill Walsh cronies like Gruden, Holmgren, Reid, Shanahan, et al..they all have hired, at some point, OTHER Bill Walsh cronies: ray rhodes works with Holgren in Seattle, Morhinweg with Reid, Denny Green and Billick, Biillick and Fassell, etc..
so that more than anything is the reason these guys , these lousy coaches like haslett,like morhinweg, keep getting re-hired elsewhere.
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bagger.
The One Play Quiz
Having that cup of coffee is what puts them into the initial talent pool to be a coach.How is it that the amount of minorities that have a cup of coffee are not moving up the ranks on a comparable level to white coaches?
Is:
1. it because there is a disproportionate amount of white players who have a cup of coffee?
2. it because black coaches lack the faculties to become a good coach at the same rate as white coaches?
3. there a bias?
For everyone saying that there isn't a problem, it has to be 1 or 2. But nobody will say which. This is what I find so puzzling.
Sticking your head in the sand and saying everything is fine because you refust to look at it doesn't do anyone any good.
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dgreen
Footballguy
I'll admit I'm not qualitfied to decide on a HC. Give me a choice between Joe Gibbs and Marty Morningwheg and I'll be confident in my choice, but that's about it.But, if I was a GM, and was fully familiar with football and organizations and whatnot, I'd look for leadership, character, and intelligence.
I don't think it is disproportionate. Or, maybe better put, I don't care if it is disproportionate. I wouldn't care if there were 32 white coaches or 32 black coaches or 32 Asian coaches. I really don't care. My guess is that, in the vast majority of situations, a team hires the person they think is most likely to lead their team to a SB regardless of color.
I'm not sure why blacks haven't been as qualified as whites. Nor am I sure why whites haven't been as qualified as blacks at RB. I'm not sure why men are more qualified than women to be math teachers (at least that's my perception) or why women are more qualified than men to nurture a child. Maybe qualified is the wrong word. Maybe it is just that whites have more desire to be a coach and blacks have more desire to be a player and men have more desire to be a math teacher and women have more desire to nurture children. I'm not sure why any of this is considered to be wrong or bad. What's the big deal if one race is inherently better at something than another race?I think this would be fabulous research for Steve Levitt, author of Freakonomics.
CalBear
Footballguy
Let's be clear on this; you are suggesting that the reason there are more white coaches is that white ex-players are more likely to have "actual coaching and leadership skills" than black ex-players. Could you provide some evidence for that assertion? (And no, the fact that there are more white coaches is not evidence for that assertion.)
pinequick
Footballguy
I've read this board for a long time, and this comment makes my list. This is, I'm sure, no reflection on you--but this is one of the most unintelligent posts I have read here. I'm not sure that you could paint with a broader brush, really. Anytime you assign individual-level characteristics to a group, you are making a lot of assumptions. Bad assumptions. Really bad assumptions.An example: A higher proportion of the black population currently resides in prison. This is obviously because black people are more prone to crime.
Now, you'll find a lot of people who agree with that statement. A lot of ignorant people.
CalBear
Footballguy
That is the clear implication of your logic. You suggest that the reason people get coaching jobs is because they networked and had the chance, and had "actual coaching and leadership skills." You state that "overlooked minorities" had the networking and the chance. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of coaching jobs in the NCAA and NFL go to whites. So what is your explanation for that, other than that the minorities didn't have "actual coaching and leadership skills"?
dgreen
Footballguy
I didn't say that.
Yes, I said that because it was being claimed that networking was EXACTLY the reason coaches are coaches. Since that applies to both blacks and whites, it is not a reason why whites have more jobs than blacks.
Again, I don't know why. I don't necessarily care either. The reason people throw out the "I don't see many white RBs" argument is because that is clearly a case that people don't care whether there is racial equality. But, for some reason those same people that don't care about RB care about coaches. Or, they're willing to argue that, for whatever reason, blacks are better RBs than whites, but they aren't willing to accept that whites may be better than blacks at something, like coaching. I'm not saying whites are better because they are white. I'm saying I don't know why and I don't care why.And, I didn't say minorities don't have coaching and leadership skills. I said that the people who are coaches have coaching and leadership skills. Black coaches have coaching and leadership skills. Hispanic coaches have coaching and leadership skills. White coaches have coaching and leadership skills.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I've been waiting for this smilie for a long time. Now I finally get to use it. 
pinequick
Footballguy
You correct me if I'm wrong. Based on your logic, do you think it would be fair to say that:1) blacks, as a group, are better athletes. They have tangible skills that we can witness as being superior to other groups (like the RB example).
2) whites, as a group, are better coaches. They have tangible skills that we can witness as being superior to other groups (the ratio of white coaches in the NFL).
Is this a fair characterization of your argument?
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
The problem arises because of the dispute about which pool of candidates we are to pull from.Are we pulling from society at large?
This makes sense on one level. At birth, everyone has the same capacity for strong leadership and comprehension of the game. People who excel at it would approximate the genetic makeup of society at large.
This approach discounts valuable experience that is/can be learned during the performance of the game.
Are we pulling from the nfl players?
This makes sense at one level as well. Players certainly know the system. They've seen good and bad coaches. They've watched years of film. They understand the game, at least on some level.
However, this approach overvalues playing experience. The skillset required to be a player in the NFL than the skillset required to be a successful coach. In addition, it begs the question "why are there more blacks than whites playing in the NFL?" It isn't because they've got superior ability to comprehend the game, lead others, etc or other skills vital to successful coaching. I would argue that that ability is going to be the same. The reason there are more blacks in the NFL than whites is due to physical superiority. The physical ability is not a prerequisite to successful coaching. Many of the gifted athletes in the NFL may not make it as head coaches NOT because they are inferior intellectually to their white counterparts, but because they were superior physically to their white counterparts.
Neither is going to be a clean indicator. I would say a blended average is probably right. What the exact percentage should be, who knows? I don't know that we're far from it with regard to Head Coaches in the NFL. I know that we are far from it with regard to coordinators in the NFL and head coaches in the NCAAs.
CalBear
Footballguy
People throw out the "I don't see many white RBs" argument because there is no evidence that white RBs are discriminated against. The fact that blacks dominate many of the athletic positions in some sports is due to culture, not aptitude; blacks in America are more likely to participate in more athletic activities as kids, and their families and friends place a higher value on athletic success. Whites dominate some sports, like hockey, again because of cultural issues. The idea of the oppressed white RB is a straw man, completely irrelevant to the discussion.(Aside; if 90% of the hockey coaches in America and Canada were black, wouldn't you think that was a bit odd?)
Unlike you, I do care why blacks in America are not given leadership positions, and I also have a good idea as to why that is so. Among the reasons are long-standing, ingrained, and fundamentally flawed ideas about aptitude.
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