Why so down on Moreno? (1 Viewer)

[Richc111]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

 

[Concept Coop]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

He is an offseason buy for me. I liked him in college and he showed flashes and solid production. He is a very natural runner and I could see him being a Mendenhall type fantasy back by the end of next season. In non-ppr leagues, his PPG was very high, before Tebow started the final 3 games.

 

[Rylenol]

I think part of it is the uncertainty that comes with the Broncos bringing in a new head coach. Moreno is not Fox's guy. That's not to say they won't use him but look what Fox did in Carolina. He implemented a RBBC situation which would limit Moreno's ceiling if he does it in Denver.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I hate these threads that make me feel stupid. Are we talking about Zeke Moreno, or Moses Moreno?

 

[pghrob]

I hate these threads that make me feel stupid. Are we talking about Zeke Moreno, or Moses Moreno?

I thought it was Rita. Seriously, Knowshon is a hold now.

 

[Richc111]

I like him because of he is a receiving threat. Catch 3-4 balls and 15 carries and 8-10 td's year is fine by me. Last year has was rated in the top 20 in my league and he missed 3 games

 

[Richc111]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

He is an offseason buy for me. I liked him in college and he showed flashes and solid production. He is a very natural runner and I could see him being a Mendenhall type fantasy back by the end of next season. In non-ppr leagues, his PPG was very high, before Tebow started the final 3 games.

I'm in your camp, seems like a nice solid player but like I said Cecil is ready to draft another RB already

 

[RBM]

Tebow is the problem with Moreno. If Tebow is the guy, Moreno will never see a carry inside the 10.

I need to add that it seems like he is always nicked up

 

[matttyl]

Different teams, different situations, different running styles, different blockers and everything else aside....

Moreno - 429 career attempts, 5 20+ yard carries, 0 40+ yard carries

Ahmad Bradshaw - 529 career attempts, 24 20+ yard carries, 4 40+ yard carries

Mendenhall - 585 career attempts, 20 20+ yard carries, 2 40+ yard carries

Beanie Wells?! - 292 career attempts, 5 20+ yard carries, 0 40+ yard carries

Ryan Torain?! - 179 career attempts and a year out of the game, 7 20+ yard carries, 1 40+ yard carry

Pierre Thomas - 411 career attempts, 11 40+ yard carries, 1 40+ yard carry

Shonn Greene (so far thought to be a disappointment) - 293 career attempts, 6 20+ yard carries

Donald Brown (same as Greene) - 207 career attempts, 6 20+ yard carries, 3 40+ yard carries

LeGarrette Blount (in less than 2/3rds of a season) - 201 career attempts, 10 20+ yard carries, 3 40+ yard carries

He just hasn't shown he's got the skills to be a "dynamite" player in the NFL, and Fox will likely bring in another RB to share the load, or possibly even take the job. Last year durability became a question, and we saw what his impact would be in/when Tebow takes over. I can right now name 20ish RBs I'd rather have in a dynasty league (Peterson, CJ2K, Foster, MJD, Charles, Rice, Mendy, Forte, McCoy, McFadden, J Stew, Gore, Best, Ingram, Turner, D Will, Bradshaw, Mathews, Hillis - and depending on how the next 48 hours works out - LeShoure, Williams, and S Jax). And that's before they draft a 2nd round RB....

 

[SayWhat?]

The problem with Moreno, IMO, is that his game just seems awfully pedestrian. We knew that he wasn't a burner coming into the league, but his vision, lateral agility and effort were supposed to make up for that lack of speed. He's a decent option out of the backfield, but in the botttom third of the league's starting RB's when it comes to being an impact RB.

 

[Cato]

Sold Moreno for the 1.01 (Mathews) last year.

Concerned with Moreno's lack of flash, and seems to be injury prone. Also the Monday night game in Pittsburgh where he gained 3 yds. 3!

Granted Mathews hasn't been the model of durability, but has shown flashes of potential.

Wonder how things would have shaken out, if Peyton Hillis had been given another true legit shot in Denver?

 

[Matt Waldman]

The problem with Moreno, IMO, is that his game just seems awfully pedestrian. We knew that he wasn't a burner coming into the league, but his vision, lateral agility and effort were supposed to make up for that lack of speed. He's a decent option out of the backfield, but in the botttom third of the league's starting RB's when it comes to being an impact RB.

I can see that argument, but I'm in the camp opposite Cecil on Knowshon Moreno. The guy hasn't been fully healthy for two years, he's had a change in offensive systems, and both of these factors will slow a back down enough that he could very well appear more pedestrian than he really is at full health and more comfort with the system behind him. There is a lot more that goes into play with reading blocks and anticipating how running plays should go prior to the snap and will go after the snap than what is generally discussed. Cecil likes to rag on Moreno for celebrating after a 20-yard run. I understand his dislike of this, but I look at this as Moreno blowing off steam that he's been unable to show what he knows he can do because of injuries and such. When he's done something successful, he has to be feeling like, "FINALLY!" The quickness is still there, but every split second counts and when a team is still new to a blocking system that really does make a difference to a back who operates on quickness and reads more than pure speed. The more you have to think or adjust because a lineman doesn't execute the right double-team or makes the wrong read of a defender that throws off a blocking scheme, the slower you're going to appear. Throw in adjustments and mistakes I'm sure he's made as well and that compounds the problem. So when I look at a 4.2 ypc stat for 2010 with this kind of context, I'm not as pessimistic about Moreno as Cecil is. I think the jury is still out on Moreno. I haven't had a chance to openly disagree with Lammey on-air about it on Thursday nights because he throws it in as an aside to his points and then steers the conversation elsewhere to something that's more salient to what we're planning to cover on the show. However, I will make it known that I think if Moreno stays healthy in camp and can stay healthy this year - which he never had injury problems at Georgia - I think we'll see a more consistently productive runner in 2011.

 

[sbonomo]

Sold Moreno for the 1.01 (Mathews) last year. Concerned with Moreno's lack of flash, and seems to be injury prone. Also the Monday night game in Pittsburgh where he gained 3 yds. 3! Granted Mathews hasn't been the model of durability, but has shown flashes of potential. Wonder how things would have shaken out, if Peyton Hillis had been given another true legit shot in Denver?

you got the 1.01 or Mathews? Who in the world would trade the 1.01 for Moreno....I miss the guppy leagues some times.

 

[DansRams]

The positives for Moreno are

1. When healthy enough to play he has been a top 15 ff back (better in ppr).

2. He hasn't had major injuries, just nagging, so we likely haven't seen his best yet.

3. The McDaniel sysem isn't great for rb's, so most other systems would be a improvement.

4. Denver will be switching back to a zone blocking scheme that fits his style very well.

 

[Cato]

Sold Moreno for the 1.01 (Mathews) last year. Concerned with Moreno's lack of flash, and seems to be injury prone. Also the Monday night game in Pittsburgh where he gained 3 yds. 3! Granted Mathews hasn't been the model of durability, but has shown flashes of potential. Wonder how things would have shaken out, if Peyton Hillis had been given another true legit shot in Denver?

you got the 1.01 or Mathews? Who in the world would trade the 1.01 for Moreno....I miss the guppy leagues some times.

Sorry, the 2010 1.01, with which I took Mathews...

 

[Matt Waldman]

The positives for Moreno are1. When healthy enough to play he has been a top 15 ff back (better in ppr).2. He hasn't had major injuries, just nagging, so we likely haven't seen his best yet.3. The McDaniel sysem isn't great for rb's, so most other systems would be a improvement.4. Denver will be switching back to a zone blocking scheme that fits his style very well.

These are excellent, excellent points - especially No.4. MAC MVP Chad Spann told me that he studied a lot of Moreno while in college because he was a good zone runner. You often study guys that coaches recommend you look at and I bet Moreno was one of those recommendations.

 

[SayWhat?]

The problem with Moreno, IMO, is that his game just seems awfully pedestrian. We knew that he wasn't a burner coming into the league, but his vision, lateral agility and effort were supposed to make up for that lack of speed. He's a decent option out of the backfield, but in the botttom third of the league's starting RB's when it comes to being an impact RB.

I can see that argument, but I'm in the camp opposite Cecil on Knowshon Moreno. The guy hasn't been fully healthy for two years, he's had a change in offensive systems, and both of these factors will slow a back down enough that he could very well appear more pedestrian than he really is at full health and more comfort with the system behind him. There is a lot more that goes into play with reading blocks and anticipating how running plays should go prior to the snap and will go after the snap than what is generally discussed. Cecil likes to rag on Moreno for celebrating after a 20-yard run. I understand his dislike of this, but I look at this as Moreno blowing off steam that he's been unable to show what he knows he can do because of injuries and such. When he's done something successful, he has to be feeling like, "FINALLY!"

The quickness is still there, but every split second counts and when a team is still new to a blocking system that really does make a difference to a back who operates on quickness and reads more than pure speed. The more you have to think or adjust because a lineman doesn't execute the right double-team or makes the wrong read of a defender that throws off a blocking scheme, the slower you're going to appear. Throw in adjustments and mistakes I'm sure he's made as well and that compounds the problem. So when I look at a 4.2 ypc stat for 2010 with this kind of context, I'm not as pessimistic about Moreno as Cecil is.

I think the jury is still out on Moreno. I haven't had a chance to openly disagree with Lammey on-air about it on Thursday nights because he throws it in as an aside to his points and then steers the conversation elsewhere to something that's more salient to what we're planning to cover on the show. However, I will make it known that I think if Moreno stays healthy in camp and can stay healthy this year - which he never had injury problems at Georgia - I think we'll see a more consistently productive runner in 2011.

You make some valid points regarding his health, or lack thereof, and system adjustments which he's had to deal with. That said, he's only "celebrated" 5 times (20+ yard runs) in 2 years and nearly 500 carries. Regardless of health and system, that just stinks of mediocrity. I realize that 20+ yard runs is an arbitrary mark, but he just hasn't even come close to looking the part of game changing feature back like everyone thought he would be.

 

[todisco1]

After watching him for a couple of years I'm of the mind that he's just not a very good runningback. He's not horrible, and he may hold onto the job for a few years, or be the bigger part of a RBBC, but there is nothing I've seen from him that indicates he is "great" at anything.

Having said that, guys like Ray Rice and LeSean McCoy didn't look terrific in their first years; maybe Moreno will improve in his 3rd season.

 

[Concept Coop]

You make some valid points regarding his health, or lack thereof, and system adjustments which he's had to deal with. That said, he's only "celebrated" 5 times (20+ yard runs) in 2 years and nearly 500 carries. Regardless of health and system, that just stinks of mediocrity. I realize that 20+ yard runs is an arbitrary mark, but he just hasn't even come close to looking the part of game changing feature back like everyone thought he would be.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Moreno will live up to the hype(1.01). And I don't think anyone is arguing that he is a game changing back. But you don't need to be, to be a productive fantasy football running back. He is a powerful guy for his size wiht a solid frame, good agility, solid vision...a lot of the things that you look for. He is still young and could carry a full load. If Cedric Benson, Rashard Mendenhall, and other players with questionable talent can produce solid numbers, I think Moreno can too. I don't think Moreno is the talent that McFadden is, but he is talented. I think Moreno is in a better (perceived) position than McFadden was this time last year. I think there is something to learn from DMC's situation and career map.

 

[Matt Waldman]

Back 1

Rookie year: 13 games, 181 attempts, 697 yards, 2 scores, longest run? 32 yards, ypc? 3.9, 6 fumbles.

Year two: 8 games, 120 attempts, 488 yards, 5 scores, longest run? 56 yards, ypc 4.1, 6 fumbles.

Year three: 14 games, 183 attempts, 742 yards, 5 scores, longest run? 46 yards, ypc? 4.1, 5 fumbles.

That back? O.J. Simpson

Back 2

Rookie year: 12 games, 253 attempts, 884 yards, 2 scores, longest run? 25 yards, ypc 3.5, 6 fumbles.

Year two: 10 games, 248 attempts, 1000 yards, 8 scores, longest run? 26 yards, ypc 4.0, 6 fumbles.

That back? Ricky Williams

Back 3

Rookie year: 14 games, 112 attempts, 373 yards, 2 scores, longest run? 29 yards, ypc 3.3, 4 fumbles.

Year two: 16 games, 112 attempts, 380 yards, 5 scores, longest run? 21 yards, ypc 3.4, 2 fumbles.

Year three: 9 games, 138 attempts, 511 yards, 2 scores, longest run? 58 yards, ypc 3.7, 3 fumbles.

That back? Thomas Jones

I could probably add Garrison Hearst, Darren McFadden, Tiki Barber, Cedric Benson, and others to this list of guys with early careers where they didn't have a high ypc or a lot of long runs and turned into fine runners in this league.

I understand staying away from Moreno if you're risk averse, but I don't think the argument is settled at this stage of his career. I think Moreno is one of this pivotal players that could make or break teams.

 

[DansRams]

Sold Moreno for the 1.01 (Mathews) last year. Concerned with Moreno's lack of flash, and seems to be injury prone. Also the Monday night game in Pittsburgh where he gained 3 yds. 3! Granted Mathews hasn't been the model of durability, but has shown flashes of potential. Wonder how things would have shaken out, if Peyton Hillis had been given another true legit shot in Denver?

you got the 1.01 or Mathews? Who in the world would trade the 1.01 for Moreno....I miss the guppy leagues some times.

Sorry, the 2010 1.01, with which I took Mathews...

Last yr, I got Moreno and what turns out to be 1.04 this year for Mathews . No way would I have traded Moreno for Mathews straight up, but 1.04 is > than the difference between Mathews and Moreno.

 

[Richc111]

Lots of great discussion here. I think that was a really good point about Tebow and if he becomes that starter. Having 4-8 TD vultured would really hurt his value. At least what I am hearing is the end is not as near as Cecil made me think it was. When I heard him talk about the Broncos taking another RB already I was like WHAT! am I missing something. Granted, as I mentioned similar comments were made about Mendenhall 2 years ago. I'm cool with some homer stuff, passion is part of the game, and it is hard to like players when the team is down, just like it is easy to like them too much when the team is winning. As I started the string here. We are in a 100% keeper league, with salary cap and we actually draft rookies before the NFL draft. With all this discussion about Moreno, hey I still have my 2006 2nd round draft choice (L. Maroney) sitting on my taxi squad and he has never seen the line up. At least Morano is Maroney!

 

[Cato]

Sold Moreno for the 1.01 (Mathews) last year. Concerned with Moreno's lack of flash, and seems to be injury prone. Also the Monday night game in Pittsburgh where he gained 3 yds. 3! Granted Mathews hasn't been the model of durability, but has shown flashes of potential. Wonder how things would have shaken out, if Peyton Hillis had been given another true legit shot in Denver?

you got the 1.01 or Mathews? Who in the world would trade the 1.01 for Moreno....I miss the guppy leagues some times.

Sorry, the 2010 1.01, with which I took Mathews...

Last yr, I got Moreno and what turns out to be 1.04 this year for Mathews . No way would I have traded Moreno for Mathews straight up, but 1.04 is > than the difference between Mathews and Moreno.

Nice trade. Nicely done. 1. McFadden's career arc is a good point in this discussion. Patience with a prospect vs flipping for a new toy, or selling for pennies on the dollar.2. Do wonder how the RB picture would look had Peyton Hillis gotten a shot in Denver. 3. Some of these sell/buy decisions are gut/leap of faith type decisions right? I apply as much research as the next guy, but push comes to shove, some of this comes down to gut/leap of faith type calls. ... unless someone has a more sure fire scientific approach, on when is a bust , a bust? a replaceable asset. or future stud.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

just saw this thread, and no I'm not a homer. I cover the Broncos (and the league) but am a Steelers fan.

The Broncos are looking to add another RB via free agency, as John Fox said in his press conference last Saturday (I wasn't there, I was in NYC at Radio City for the draft). Fox went four deep in Carolina, and I expect him to build that type of ground game eventually in Denver.

Moreno is limited by several things. First is his propensity to get dinged up. He just hasn't stayed healthy, and at that position you have to stay healthy and produce or you will be replaced.

Second, he still slips too much when changing direction. he even changed cleats (brands) this last year and still had trouble keeping his feet. He can process a hole/cutback lane quickly but his body can't keep up with his brain.

Next, he is limited when he gets to the second level. It's rare when he does, but I can count the runs on one hand from 2010 where he actually showed a move to evade once past the line. Too often he will almost look surprised that he made it to that level, his brain will freeze and then he'll look for the nearest contact.

He lacks big play ability. Most of his long runs will be around 20 yards, and I would be surprised if he ever broke off a 60 yard run. Last year I believe his biggest play was on a screen pass that went about 40 yards.

Moreno is not a dominant runner who can take over a game. He has not shown the ability to create for himself at the pro level. Being a great runner in the NFL is about creating space. you can do that a number of different ways...you can blast over guys, creating space - you can give a shoulder dip to create space - you can give a defender the 'dead leg' then take it away, creating space - you need to create doubt/hesitation in a defender to freeze him - even momentarily - so you can get around him. Defenders who line up Moreno, tackle Moreno - end of story.

Fox RBBC, Tebow stealing GL carries, etc = Moreno never living up to his draft status. Depending on who they get in free agency or trades (Orton for Beanie Wells has been tossed around) will depend on how I project him this year.

I was on board with Moreno when he came out of college. So far in the pros he's been nothing but an incredible disappointment.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

Also wanted to add that he hasn't prepared like a pro so far in his career. too often after a couple of carries or a 'big' 7-yard carry he'll wave to the sidelines because he's winded.

I know people inside that locker room that practice alongside him who don't feel he has a good work ethic or workout regimen.

He could change his work ethic and improve his conditioning (how about staying at altitude all year round?) but so far that's another strike against him.

 

[Go deep]

Im somewhere in the middle when it comes to Moreno. I agree with most of the negatives his "haters" point out, except the Tebow thing. Do people really think Tebow is going to run for 6+ TD's a season? Are you basing this off of 3 games at the end of last season? Morenos numbers slipped because the Bronocs were getting blown out early in 2 of the 3 games, so they werent running at all. Other than Tebow taking off when he couldnt find someone open. Plus, thats a pretty small sample size to draw any conclusions from. Not to mention nobody knows the impact the new coaching staff will have.

Its seems to me that most RB's benefit from a running QB under center. Look at what Vick did for the Falcons running game before he murdered puppies. Look at Chris Johnsons numbers with and without Vince Young. Im sure there are some, but i cant think of any examples of a RB really suffereing from having a running QB.

One more thing, some have mentioned that Fox is a big RBBC guy, but im not sure that is true. I think injuries have somewhat made that the case in the past, that and having two RB's like Deangelo and Stewart, but whoever ends up being the #1 back in Denver, i would have no problem drafting him and expect 300 touches(assuming its either Deangelo or a healthy Moreno). Even Nick Goings and Deshaun Foster were getting 250 touches a season, and Foster did it while having Deangelo Williams on the bench.

 

[eraclansing]

. Do people really think Tebow is going to run for 6+ TD's a season?

Yes, I really do think Tebow will run for 6+ TD's a season. Ever since his college days and into last year I've never seen a bigger TD vulture than T.Tebow.

 

[otnemem]

Tebow is the problem with Moreno. If Tebow is the guy, Moreno will never see a carry inside the 10.I need to add that it seems like he is always nicked up

i was going to post this exactly, then i saw this. tebow ruins moreno TD potential.

 

[Go deep]

. Do people really think Tebow is going to run for 6+ TD's a season?

Yes, I really do think Tebow will run for 6+ TD's a season. Ever since his college days and into last year I've never seen a bigger TD vulture than T.Tebow.

Im sure he will get a couple/few TD's each season, but i feel confident in saying Tebow will not run for 6 or more TD's in each of the next 3 seasons. Has there ever been a QB in NFL who rushed for 6 or more TD's in 3 consecutive seasons? Michael Vick has only done it 3 times total and he is arguably the best running QB of all time. Culpepper did it twice in his career, and Cunningham only once. The only way i see this happening is if he doesnt work out at QB and is converted to some kind of Fullback/wild cat QB/goaline QB/backup QB. Which i guess is possible since i dont think he is a good enough passer to be a starting NFL QB. Either way, no way he rushes for 6+ TD's a season as the Broncos starting QB.

 

[ZWK]

Moreno's stats in the 3 Tebow games don't mean anything - he was injured. He injured his ribs in the first quarter of the week 15 Oakland game (Tebow's first start) and was out for the rest of the game. Week 16 against Houston he tried to play, but wasn't 100% and was taken out at halftime. Week 17 against San Diego he was listed as questionable and given limited touches in a RB rotation.

 

[Go deep]

Another thing, how many times do you think the actual play call will be a Tebow run from inside the 10? Most of his rushing TD's will likely come on busted passing plays. Which is one of the reason i think Tebow hurts the Denver WR's more than their RB's(like i said already, i dont think he is/will be a very good passer)

Considering opposing defenses will have to account for Tebows running, it might actually open up running lanes for Moreno, or whichever RB is in the backfield. So i dont really think Tebow will hurt the RB'sTD numbers much, if at all. Not to mention of Tebows running helps keep drives alive that would normally stall, there might be more TD opportunities in general.

 

[sihaokills]

People just don't think to like Mereno. He IMO is going to have an amazing year

 

[Jercules]

Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. isn't high on him either.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6486034

I would say Tebow isn't the problem so much as the exit of McDaniels. Moreno might be in line for a bigger piece of the pie, but the pie is going to shrink considerably.

I'd pay very close attention not just to whom the Broncos sign at RB, but particularly to whom they try to sign. If a single credible source says they're making a play for DeAngelo Williams or someone of that caliber, sell Moreno immediately.

 

[identikit]

Also wanted to add that he hasn't prepared like a pro so far in his career. too often after a couple of carries or a 'big' 7-yard carry he'll wave to the sidelines because he's winded. I know people inside that locker room that practice alongside him who don't feel he has a good work ethic or workout regimen. He could change his work ethic and improve his conditioning (how about staying at altitude all year round?) but so far that's another strike against him.

This is not a good sign at all.

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

All the points have been so far so I'll just add my thoughts. We play the odds in this game. Is it possible that Moreno proves everyone wrong and turns into a perenial top 10 back? Yes but it seems remote. It seems much more probable that another guy with some talent just doesn't capitalize through either his own failings in preperation, the situation he finds himself in or a combo of both.

You might stubbornly hold onto him so you can proclaim "I told you so" but the odds are stacked against you I fear.

 

[finito]

. Do people really think Tebow is going to run for 6+ TD's a season?

Yes, I really do think Tebow will run for 6+ TD's a season. Ever since his college days and into last year I've never seen a bigger TD vulture than T.Tebow.

Im sure he will get a couple/few TD's each season, but i feel confident in saying Tebow will not run for 6 or more TD's in each of the next 3 seasons. Has there ever been a QB in NFL who rushed for 6 or more TD's in 3 consecutive seasons? Michael Vick has only done it 3 times total and he is arguably the best running QB of all time. Culpepper did it twice in his career, and Cunningham only once. The only way i see this happening is if he doesnt work out at QB and is converted to some kind of Fullback/wild cat QB/goaline QB/backup QB. Which i guess is possible since i dont think he is a good enough passer to be a starting NFL QB. Either way, no way he rushes for 6+ TD's a season as the Broncos starting QB.

I think the point being made is that Tebow is a very good running QB and he will vulture several TDs a year from the runningbacks.

 

[remote controller]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

 

[Go deep]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

Sure does. Tebow plus Moreno plus Deangelo equals yuck

 

[Go deep]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

Sure does. Tebow plus Moreno plus Deangelo equals yuck

I agree that Tebow would hurt Williams, but not because he will vulture TD's. Like i said before, how many Tebow runs are going to be called inside the 10. Most of his 3 or 4 running Td's will be from broken passing plays. What will hurt Williams, or any other Denver RB, is Tebow not being a good NFL passer. RB's are not going to get many points when their team spends the first half going 3 and out and the 2nd half passing every down against prevent defenses.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

I agree that Tebow would hurt Williams, but not because he will vulture TD's. Like i said before, how many Tebow runs are going to be called inside the 10. Most of his 3 or 4 running Td's will be from broken passing plays. What will hurt Williams, or any other Denver RB, is Tebow not being a good NFL passer. RB's are not going to get many points when their team spends the first half going 3 and out and the 2nd half passing every down against prevent defenses.

Plus, with Tebow under center teams are going to stack the line to stop the run and dare the young quarterback to beat them. Forget Moreno's lack of elite talent, his situation is very poor until Tebow proves that he can make reads and move an offense with his arm.

 

[loose circuits]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I don't know, he seems to be very good in the passing game. If he stays healthy for a season, could those type of drives lead to 50-60 catches for him?

 

[Go deep]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I don't know, he seems to be very good in the passing game. If he stays healthy for a season, could those type of drives lead to 50-60 catches for him?

50-60, possible if he stays healthy. But that also depends on what other RB's are on the Broncos roster once the season starts. They could bring in another RB who is good in the passing game and would get alot of the garbage time numbers.

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

Sure does. Tebow plus Moreno plus Deangelo equals yuck

I agree that Tebow would hurt Williams, but not because he will vulture TD's. Like i said before, how many Tebow runs are going to be called inside the 10. Most of his 3 or 4 running Td's will be from broken passing plays. What will hurt Williams, or any other Denver RB, is Tebow not being a good NFL passer. RB's are not going to get many points when their team spends the first half going 3 and out and the 2nd half passing every down against prevent defenses.

I'm not sure that debating the use of "vulture" makes any sense. To me it doesn't matter if it is a designed concious decision to have Tebow score or if by the virtue of his play, his confidence in his legs or inability to make defenses honor his pass he just ends up scoring; In the end it still means the RB (Moreno or otherwise) will not be scoring. This is bad news and something we should be anticipating.

 

[Go deep]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

Sure does. Tebow plus Moreno plus Deangelo equals yuck

I agree that Tebow would hurt Williams, but not because he will vulture TD's. Like i said before, how many Tebow runs are going to be called inside the 10. Most of his 3 or 4 running Td's will be from broken passing plays. What will hurt Williams, or any other Denver RB, is Tebow not being a good NFL passer. RB's are not going to get many points when their team spends the first half going 3 and out and the 2nd half passing every down against prevent defenses.

I'm not sure that debating the use of "vulture" makes any sense. To me it doesn't matter if it is a designed concious decision to have Tebow score or if by the virtue of his play, his confidence in his legs or inability to make defenses honor his pass he just ends up scoring; In the end it still means the RB (Moreno or otherwise) will not be scoring. This is bad news and something we should be anticipating.

Of course Moreno(or any other RB) isnt going to run for a TD on a pass play.

Again though, i agree Tebow is bad news for any Denver RB, but because of his inablitly to drive his team down the field when the game is still close. Not because he will steal short yardage TD's. Actually, i thnk it might benefit a RB like Deangelo to have a Tebow as the QB when the team is inside the 5. Tebow is no Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, so the team is more likely to run inside the 5 as opposed to pass.

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

Sure does. Tebow plus Moreno plus Deangelo equals yuck

I agree that Tebow would hurt Williams, but not because he will vulture TD's. Like i said before, how many Tebow runs are going to be called inside the 10. Most of his 3 or 4 running Td's will be from broken passing plays. What will hurt Williams, or any other Denver RB, is Tebow not being a good NFL passer. RB's are not going to get many points when their team spends the first half going 3 and out and the 2nd half passing every down against prevent defenses.

I'm not sure that debating the use of "vulture" makes any sense. To me it doesn't matter if it is a designed concious decision to have Tebow score or if by the virtue of his play, his confidence in his legs or inability to make defenses honor his pass he just ends up scoring; In the end it still means the RB (Moreno or otherwise) will not be scoring. This is bad news and something we should be anticipating.

Of course Moreno(or any other RB) isnt going to run for a TD on a pass play.

Again though, i agree Tebow is bad news for any Denver RB, but because of his inablitly to drive his team down the field when the game is still close. Not because he will steal short yardage TD's. Actually, i thnk it might benefit a RB like Deangelo to have a Tebow as the QB when the team is inside the 5. Tebow is no Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, so the team is more likely to run inside the 5 as opposed to pass.

hmm GoDeep, I usually find myself on the same side of the debate as you but today is different I guess. I would like to understand better your premise about Tebow's impact. I owned Moreno and watched him tear it up in my ppr league pre Tebow. Even in week 14 which was a blowout loss he had 82 yds, TD and 5 catches. Suddenly when Tebow takes over his targets and catches dry up. Tebow on the other hand has 7-78 TD, then 10-32 TD and finally 13-94 TD (two of TEbow's TDs were for 6 yds). This all smells like vulturing to me both in the shear number of Tebow rushes and the two inside the 10yd line rushing scores.

 

[Go deep]

Cecil is really down on Moreno after a few years. Is this negativity warranted, or is it more of a homer type of thing? My problem is I am in a 100% keeper league. The things that worries me is I heard the same thing a few years back about Mendenhall and I think to paraphrase a few years ago said he was never going to last in Pitt and might never see the field. In this league I traded him after the comments and now I look back and it was by far the worst trade I made. Mendenhall was a top 10 fantasy RB now. So is this negativity real? Based on his comments I am in the same boat now with Moreno. Comments are welcome.

I love what moreno did last year when he was in the game. i want to see him stay healthy, but this draft was good news for Moreno in my opinion.

the draft was good news but the rumored free agent acquisitions (D Williams or Benson)are most definitely not. The Tebow factor completely sinks it.

Does the Tebow factor sink it for Denagelo if he ends up in Denver?

Sure does. Tebow plus Moreno plus Deangelo equals yuck

I agree that Tebow would hurt Williams, but not because he will vulture TD's. Like i said before, how many Tebow runs are going to be called inside the 10. Most of his 3 or 4 running Td's will be from broken passing plays. What will hurt Williams, or any other Denver RB, is Tebow not being a good NFL passer. RB's are not going to get many points when their team spends the first half going 3 and out and the 2nd half passing every down against prevent defenses.

I'm not sure that debating the use of "vulture" makes any sense. To me it doesn't matter if it is a designed concious decision to have Tebow score or if by the virtue of his play, his confidence in his legs or inability to make defenses honor his pass he just ends up scoring; In the end it still means the RB (Moreno or otherwise) will not be scoring. This is bad news and something we should be anticipating.

Of course Moreno(or any other RB) isnt going to run for a TD on a pass play.

Again though, i agree Tebow is bad news for any Denver RB, but because of his inablitly to drive his team down the field when the game is still close. Not because he will steal short yardage TD's. Actually, i thnk it might benefit a RB like Deangelo to have a Tebow as the QB when the team is inside the 5. Tebow is no Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, so the team is more likely to run inside the 5 as opposed to pass.

hmm GoDeep, I usually find myself on the same side of the debate as you but today is different I guess. I would like to understand better your premise about Tebow's impact. I owned Moreno and watched him tear it up in my ppr league pre Tebow. Even in week 14 which was a blowout loss he had 82 yds, TD and 5 catches. Suddenly when Tebow takes over his targets and catches dry up. Tebow on the other hand has 7-78 TD, then 10-32 TD and finally 13-94 TD (two of TEbow's TDs were for 6 yds). This all smells like vulturing to me both in the shear number of Tebow rushes and the two inside the 10yd line rushing scores.

I know at least one, and probaly the other one too was from a broken pass play. Which means Moreno wasnt going to run for a TD anyway. Had Tebow found someone open on those plays and threw the TD, would that be any different?I also think another poster pointed out Moreno was limited by an injury over the last few weeks.

Listen, im not a Moreno fan, and am as skeptical of his future as anyone else, but him losing TD's to a running QB isnt not something that concerns me at all.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

just saw this thread, and no I'm not a homer. I cover the Broncos (and the league) but am a Steelers fan. The Broncos are looking to add another RB via free agency, as John Fox said in his press conference last Saturday (I wasn't there, I was in NYC at Radio City for the draft). Fox went four deep in Carolina, and I expect him to build that type of ground game eventually in Denver. Moreno is limited by several things. First is his propensity to get dinged up. He just hasn't stayed healthy, and at that position you have to stay healthy and produce or you will be replaced. Second, he still slips too much when changing direction. he even changed cleats (brands) this last year and still had trouble keeping his feet. He can process a hole/cutback lane quickly but his body can't keep up with his brain. Next, he is limited when he gets to the second level. It's rare when he does, but I can count the runs on one hand from 2010 where he actually showed a move to evade once past the line. Too often he will almost look surprised that he made it to that level, his brain will freeze and then he'll look for the nearest contact. He lacks big play ability. Most of his long runs will be around 20 yards, and I would be surprised if he ever broke off a 60 yard run. Last year I believe his biggest play was on a screen pass that went about 40 yards. Moreno is not a dominant runner who can take over a game. He has not shown the ability to create for himself at the pro level. Being a great runner in the NFL is about creating space. you can do that a number of different ways...you can blast over guys, creating space - you can give a shoulder dip to create space - you can give a defender the 'dead leg' then take it away, creating space - you need to create doubt/hesitation in a defender to freeze him - even momentarily - so you can get around him. Defenders who line up Moreno, tackle Moreno - end of story. Fox RBBC, Tebow stealing GL carries, etc = Moreno never living up to his draft status. Depending on who they get in free agency or trades (Orton for Beanie Wells has been tossed around) will depend on how I project him this year. I was on board with Moreno when he came out of college. So far in the pros he's been nothing but an incredible disappointment.

Thanks to Cecil for this informative post. This is the kind of info that makes the SP great. Would recommend similar writeups for others who have stalled out of the gate like Beanie Wells and Donald Brown. I like the way you state the facts and don't play both sides. "Well, he could be a future stud or he could tank your team. He's a polarizing guy." These type of opinions null themselves out. I happen to agree about Moreno, but even if I didn't, it's great to get the analysis/breakdown and get the whole picture.

 

[Sweet Love]

Lots of great discussion here. I think that was a really good point about Tebow and if he becomes that starter. Having 4-8 TD vultured would really hurt his value. At least what I am hearing is the end is not as near as Cecil made me think it was. When I heard him talk about the Broncos taking another RB already I was like WHAT! am I missing something. Granted, as I mentioned similar comments were made about Mendenhall 2 years ago. I'm cool with some homer stuff, passion is part of the game, and it is hard to like players when the team is down, just like it is easy to like them too much when the team is winning. As I started the string here. We are in a 100% keeper league, with salary cap and we actually draft rookies before the NFL draft. With all this discussion about Moreno, hey I still have my 2006 2nd round draft choice (L. Maroney) sitting on my taxi squad and he has never seen the line up. At least Morano is Maroney!

While the thought that Tebow may (and frankly, will) vulture TDs is very valid, I also think you need to factor in how his ability to run opens up things for the the RB. The most recent examples we have are with Vick (and yes, Tebow is the closest we have to Vick on the field). In ATL, he made a career for TJ Duckett as he shared time with a guy who got his career extended (at a high level) in Dunn with Vick as the QB. If you look at 2004, Vick ran for 900+ yards, but Dunn hit over 1100 and only got 3 TDs, but Duckett got 500 yards and 8 TDs...In that case, Vick hurt the yardage, but not the TDs (in 2005, he took away Dunn's Tds (went to 3), but again, he got 1400 yards on the ground). My point is, a guy like Tebow will take away yards on the surface, but the question is, how do you quantify what he brings to the table. If he takes away 400 yards and 3 Tds, but creates, 500 extra yards (due to his opening up of the field) and 5 TDs, you are actually ahead of the game.