World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Yeah, it didn't play itself out that much in the American draft save for a few spots, but I have feeling Tim and I are going to be on oppostite ends of the spectrum throughout this one because now he is off the wall with two picks in the top 6 who should have both been in the top 3. Guess that's what makes it interesting.

I have no problems at all with either Jesus or Hitler selected in the top 6. I may dispute some of the specifics.

 

[timschochet]

Hitler is the No.1 Villain EASILY for me

I'm curious who you could think is worse.

Hitler not only wanted to kill millions, he DID.

He was pure evil and his genocide will be very difficult to top.

There have been plenty of very bad people in the history of the world and many have killed lots, but Hitler had the advantage of technology to add zero's to the numbers.

I'm not sure I agree with the argument of technology playing a role in making someone a greater villain than others in history. While Hitler was certainly a very evil man, I can think of a few others that I would rank higher.

It's not the presence of technology, but the way it was used, in the case of the Holocaust which makes it so horrifying: the marching of men, women, and children into gas chambers to be exterminated, hour after hour, day after day. It's a crime which is still extremely difficult for the human mind to comprehend.

 

[Death Bytes]

What we do know is that a huge percentage of the entire world still believe in the teachings of Jesus 2,000 years after his death.

Good morning. Once again, I have to point out that this is not only inaccurate, the fact that it's inaccurate has great bearing on whether or not this pick really deserves the high praise it's getting.

Earlier, I posted the essence, as summarized by Wikipedia, of Jesus' Sermons on the Mount and Plains. Very little of it has ever been practiced by human beings. What is practiced instead is a series of beliefs about Jesus, rather than from Jesus. These practices, which comprise the religion of Christianity, was set up by other people years after the death of Jesus Christ. That does not mean these other people should have been selected in front of Jesus- Jesus is clearly the most important person with regard to Christianity. But these facts do subtract from his overall importance with regard to the top people on this list.

For instance, since Jesus' teachings have not been practiced, how do we measure him against some scientists and thinkers, the greatest ones, whose teachings HAVE been practiced and have led to tangible and measurable advancement of mankind?

Not that I really care much at all about this draft, or for LarryBoy's potential to compete in it.... but WOW!!!!!

This would be like saying that a president shouldn't get credit for what the country did under his leadership because they didn't implement his vision exactly as he wanted it executed.

But it's really not the same thing, Death Bytes. Jesus wasn't a president, or any kind of world leader. Certainly as a movement, Christianity is highly influential, perhaps the most influential religious movement ever, though even this is debatable. But how much is Jesus himself to be given credit for the actions of Christianity throughout the centuries? Given what Jesus said in the Gospels, I rather doubt he would WANT to take credit, since so much of what this religion has done is contrary to his teachings.

This is either shtick or it's the biggest reach for the sake of argument ever.

 

[Thorn]

What we do know is that a huge percentage of the entire world still believe in the teachings of Jesus 2,000 years after his death.

Good morning. Once again, I have to point out that this is not only inaccurate, the fact that it's inaccurate has great bearing on whether or not this pick really deserves the high praise it's getting.

Earlier, I posted the essence, as summarized by Wikipedia, of Jesus' Sermons on the Mount and Plains. Very little of it has ever been practiced by human beings. What is practiced instead is a series of beliefs about Jesus, rather than from Jesus. These practices, which comprise the religion of Christianity, was set up by other people years after the death of Jesus Christ. That does not mean these other people should have been selected in front of Jesus- Jesus is clearly the most important person with regard to Christianity. But these facts do subtract from his overall importance with regard to the top people on this list.

For instance, since Jesus' teachings have not been practiced, how do we measure him against some scientists and thinkers, the greatest ones, whose teachings HAVE been practiced and have led to tangible and measurable advancement of mankind?

Not that I really care much at all about this draft, or for LarryBoy's potential to compete in it.... but WOW!!!!!

This would be like saying that a president shouldn't get credit for what the country did under his leadership because they didn't implement his vision exactly as he wanted it executed.

But it's really not the same thing, Death Bytes. Jesus wasn't a president, or any kind of world leader. Certainly as a movement, Christianity is highly influential, perhaps the most influential religious movement ever, though even this is debatable. But how much is Jesus himself to be given credit for the actions of Christianity throughout the centuries? Given what Jesus said in the Gospels, I rather doubt he would WANT to take credit, since so much of what this religion has done is contrary to his teachings.

This is either shtick or it's the biggest reach for the sake of argument ever.

A lot of people have been killed in the name of Christ. A lot. Which is somewhat related to my being torn about my first pick.

 

[timschochet]

OK, I gotta go. I will update any more picks later on today. Great start!

Death Bytes, what I wrote was NOT shtick, nor was it a reach. Nor is it original; all of my thoughts expressed here on Jesus and His relationship to Christianity have been developed by a multitude of scholars over centuries. But in the interests of this draft I won't debate it any further.

 

[Death Bytes]

Good morning.

Once again, I have to point out that this is not only inaccurate, the fact that it's inaccurate has great bearing on whether or not this pick really deserves the high praise it's getting.

Earlier, I posted the essence, as summarized by Wikipedia, of Jesus' Sermons on the Mount and Plains. Very little of it has ever been practiced by human beings. What is practiced instead is a series of beliefs about Jesus, rather than from Jesus. These practices, which comprise the religion of Christianity, was set up by other people years after the death of Jesus Christ. That does not mean these other people should have been selected in front of Jesus- Jesus is clearly the most important person with regard to Christianity. But these facts do subtract from his overall importance with regard to the top people on this list.

For instance, since Jesus' teachings have not been practiced, how do we measure him against some scientists and thinkers, the greatest ones, whose teachings HAVE been practiced and have led to tangible and measurable advancement of mankind?

Not that I really care much at all about this draft, or for LarryBoy's potential to compete in it.... but WOW!!!!!

This would be like saying that a president shouldn't get credit for what the country did under his leadership because they didn't implement his vision exactly as he wanted it executed.

But it's really not the same thing, Death Bytes. Jesus wasn't a president, or any kind of world leader. Certainly as a movement, Christianity is highly influential, perhaps the most influential religious movement ever, though even this is debatable. But how much is Jesus himself to be given credit for the actions of Christianity throughout the centuries? Given what Jesus said in the Gospels, I rather doubt he would WANT to take credit, since so much of what this religion has done is contrary to his teachings.

This is either shtick or it's the biggest reach for the sake of argument ever.

A lot of people have been killed in the name of Christ. A lot. Which is somewhat related to my being torn about my first pick.

If they did it in his name, then he is being given the credit, whether he would want the credit or not. That's the point. The credit is his. And the credit he's been given for 2000 years makes any credit any other person in the world has been given pale in comparison.

 

[Usual21]

Cool to know that you were always the smartest guy in the room. Good pick.

Yeah, I dig it.

LOL, I meant Einstein...but you'll do.

 

[Doug B]

There are three others I would place in the same grouping, but can't really quarrel with Hitler.

Based strictly on body counts, yes. But Hitler has the intangibles in spades.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

There are three others I would place in the same grouping, but can't really quarrel with Hitler.

Based strictly on body counts, yes. But Hitler has the intangibles in spades.

I watched Night and Fog recently, and it is difficult to wrap your head around - even having seen those images hundreds of times over my life. What's even tougher to swallow is that it it really isn't that unprecedented in World history, or even in just the 20th century. A lot of those intangibles have to do with the fact that the Holocaust is just really well documented compared to past (and even some contemporary) mass extermination programs.

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

I'm out for about 4 hours in case it gets to pick 13.

I'll pick when I return should that be the case

 

[timschochet]

I'm out for about 4 hours in case it gets to pick 13.I'll pick when I return should that be the case

It won't get there today because Mad Sweeney with the 10th pick won't be around today.

 

[Orange Crush]

Tim, I think you made some outstanding and very well informed commentary on why Jesus might not be worthy of the #1 overall selection (and thus a steal at #2).

Except for this ...

the teams are going to be voted on in the end?

And the vast majority of the voters will be who?

 

[timschochet]

There are three others I would place in the same grouping, but can't really quarrel with Hitler.

Based strictly on body counts, yes. But Hitler has the intangibles in spades.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Certainly the technology aspect is a convincing argument for this.But there is another argument that I want to make here without spotlighting. Two points to make here:

1. Hitler's persecutions were all about outsiders. Everything was done, supposedly, for the security of Germany. If you were a German citizen, you were relatively safe under the Nazis prior to 1944. Of course, some dissidents were taken away and the Jews all disappeared, but most Germans felt secure and were secure as they had never been before, and this is part of the reason for the great enthusiasm for Hitler and his regime. Very, very few Germans did not absolutely love Adolf Hitler.

But suppose you lived in a similar totalitarian regime, where as a citizen you were NOT safe? Suppose, rather than outsiders (like Jews or radicals) being the target of the regime, in this case the target was ordinary citizens, and you had no idea when you might be next? Suppose nobody in your daily life could be trusted, and the great leader was not adored, but feared? Wouldn't this scenario be even worse than the Hitler scenario?

2. Hitler had a great and terrible effect on mankind, but it's important to remember that all of his goals ended up in total failure. He wanted Germany as the central power in Europe, with "living space" in the east. Instead, Germany was destroyed as a power, made prostrate, and divided up among the Americans and Russians. Hitler wanted to murder all the Jews in the world. He ended up murdering less than a third, and this action paved the way for a Jewish State, which Der Fuehrer would have loathed. Hitler wanted the Ayran race to dominate all things, especially culture. Just the opposite has happened..

But suppose there was a dictator or two who murdered people in similar numbers to Hitler, yet actually achieved most of their goals? Wouldn't that villain arguably be even more influential?

Again, I'm not sure either of these arguments is enough to remove Hitler from the #1 villain spot. But its something to consider.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, I think you made some outstanding and very well informed commentary on why Jesus might not be worthy of the #1 overall selection (and thus a steal at #2). Except for this ... the teams are going to be voted on in the end? And the vast majority of the voters will be who?

Oh absolutely. Larry might win this thing on this pick alone. Yankee might lose on his first pick. It depends how much people are paying attention.But that doesn't change whether an argument is good or bad. Thanks for the compliments, though. Some people here believe my comments were absurd.

 

[FUBAR]

I'll keep my comments short on the category I'm judging, but I'll give a score 1-10, 10 being highest possible.Leaders:

1. Leaders This would be the heads of state, whether king, prime minister, dictator, president, etc. The men (and women) who run countries.

Sun Tzu - see the above criteria. I'm really not sure why you list him as a leader. He'd be one of the top military threorists or possibly even philosophers, but as a leader? Incomplete. Muhammad - clearly a 10.

 

[FUBAR]

There are three others I would place in the same grouping, but can't really quarrel with Hitler.

Based strictly on body counts, yes. But Hitler has the intangibles in spades.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Certainly the technology aspect is a convincing argument for this.But there is another argument that I want to make here without spotlighting. Two points to make here:

1. Hitler's persecutions were all about outsiders. Everything was done, supposedly, for the security of Germany. If you were a German citizen, you were relatively safe under the Nazis prior to 1944. Of course, some dissidents were taken away and the Jews all disappeared, but most Germans felt secure and were secure as they had never been before, and this is part of the reason for the great enthusiasm for Hitler and his regime. Very, very few Germans did not absolutely love Adolf Hitler.

But suppose you lived in a similar totalitarian regime, where as a citizen you were NOT safe? Suppose, rather than outsiders (like Jews or radicals) being the target of the regime, in this case the target was ordinary citizens, and you had no idea when you might be next? Suppose nobody in your daily life could be trusted, and the great leader was not adored, but feared? Wouldn't this scenario be even worse than the Hitler scenario?

2. Hitler had a great and terrible effect on mankind, but it's important to remember that all of his goals ended up in total failure. He wanted Germany as the central power in Europe, with "living space" in the east. Instead, Germany was destroyed as a power, made prostrate, and divided up among the Americans and Russians. Hitler wanted to murder all the Jews in the world. He ended up murdering less than a third, and this action paved the way for a Jewish State, which Der Fuehrer would have loathed. Hitler wanted the Ayran race to dominate all things, especially culture. Just the opposite has happened..

But suppose there was a dictator or two who murdered people in similar numbers to Hitler, yet actually achieved most of their goals? Wouldn't that villain arguably be even more influential?

Again, I'm not sure either of these arguments is enough to remove Hitler from the #1 villain spot. But its something to consider.

Depends how you judge it. One could argue that he destroyed Germany and that makes him a more vile villain. Less successful of course, but perhaps worse for destroying his own country.

 

[timschochet]

I'll keep my comments short on the category I'm judging, but I'll give a score 1-10, 10 being highest possible.

Leaders:

1. Leaders This would be the heads of state, whether king, prime minister, dictator, president, etc. The men (and women) who run countries.

Sun Tzu - see the above criteria. I'm really not sure why you list him as a leader. He'd be one of the top military threorists or possibly even philosophers, but as a leader? Incomplete. Muhammad - clearly a 10.

Clearly? As a religious figure, Muhammad is definitely in the top 2, perhaps #1. Overall, he belongs in the first handful of people picked. But as a straight up leader, not sure he's clearly at the top of the list. I'm thinking of some of the other greatest leaders in world history, and The Prophet is probably a little beneath them I think. I would put him in the high 2nd tier as a leader, borderline first tier. Which to me means between 8-9.

 

[Thorn]

1.07 Christopher Columbus, Explorer

Yes I know he has warts. I know he wasn't first, and I know he died not knowing what he accomplished.

But when you think explorer, this is unquestionably who comes to mind. He was willing to take the biggest risk, and in doing so, earned the biggest reward. He made Europe aware of the Americas. There's not just water between Europe and Japan, there's two continents full of resources. He essentially doubled the size of the known world. Four journeys acroos the Atlantic in wooden ships, not to mention discovering and implementing the trade winds to his benefit.

 

[Mario Kart]

I'm going to be another to pile on Mario Kart here.I had Sun Tzu pegged for the 4th round.Jesus & Shakespeare were in my top 6.I don't think Jesus is the clear No.1. He's definite top 3My No.1 is still on the board

We have all ready had two people come forward saying they would have picked him with their first round pick (10 & 11) so having him slated as picks 61-80 is way out in left field more than picking him at #1.

 

[timschochet]

What would the Bard have to say about all of this?

On the possible divinity of Jesus of Nazareth:

And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

On the "greatness" of those selected:

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and

some have greatness thrust upon 'em.

And how would he respond to my overly long posts?

My liege, and madam, to expostulate

What majesty should be, what duty is,

What day is day, night night, and time is time,

Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time;

Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,

And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,

I will be brief. Your noble son is mad. . . .

 

[krista4]

1.07 Christopher Columbus, Explorer

Yes I know he has warts. I know he wasn't first, and I know he died not knowing what he accomplished.

But when you think explorer, this is unquestionably who comes to mind. He was willing to take the biggest risk, and in doing so, earned the biggest reward. He made Europe aware of the Americas. There's not just water between Europe and Japan, there's two continents full of resources. He essentially doubled the size of the known world. Four journeys acroos the Atlantic in wooden ships, not to mention discovering and implementing the trade winds to his benefit.

 

[Doug B]

1.07 Christopher Columbus, Explorer

Yes I know he has warts. I know he wasn't first, and I know he died not knowing what he accomplished.

But when you think explorer, this is unquestionably who comes to mind.

See ... I'm with you here. Iconography got short shrift in the Great Americans draft (e.g. Einstein being deemed the #2 Scientist). And judging by some of the comments against other immense icons like Jesus and Hitler, iconography is going to get downgraded here as well.

 

[timschochet]

Columbus is a great pick. One of two guys at the top of my explorer list. Hard to choose between them.

 

[Thorn]

1.07 Christopher Columbus, Explorer

Yes I know he has warts. I know he wasn't first, and I know he died not knowing what he accomplished.

But when you think explorer, this is unquestionably who comes to mind.

See ... I'm with you here. Iconography got short shrift in the Great Americans draft (e.g. Einstein being deemed the #2 Scientist). And judging by some of the comments against other immense icons like Jesus and Hitler, iconography is going to get downgraded here as well.

I think there's a natural tendency, when one becomes more expert in a subject, to reject the person held out as "best" within that subject. After all that study and hard work, it's not supposed the be the person you could have picked out from 1000 yards.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I'll keep my comments short on the category I'm judging, but I'll give a score 1-10, 10 being highest possible.

Leaders:

1. Leaders This would be the heads of state, whether king, prime minister, dictator, president, etc. The men (and women) who run countries.

Sun Tzu - see the above criteria. I'm really not sure why you list him as a leader. He'd be one of the top military threorists or possibly even philosophers, but as a leader? Incomplete. Muhammad - clearly a 10.

FUBAR - this is not intended directly at you, just using your post as an example.timschochet - we had some issues in the Greatest American Draft with the author judge (drafter in this one) posting their rankings with the category still open. This was discussed in the signup thread, the quotes below is from that:

One other point about judges before I have to leave again- I want judges to be involved the whole time and to comment on picks. Not to rank picks as they happen; that would influence the drafting too much. But I would like ongoing commentary.

Even just with commenting, though, the draft can be swayed. Saying someone is a bad choice for a category, for example, can affect the draft.

It's true. I'll comment but will need to be very careful not to Thorn anyone.*Have already been compiling and ordering my list of people in this category. It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out with the limitations on geography. I expect that some of the top folks won't be taken because people use their five from a country on other categories. I expect some creative picks.

*Just a joke, GBT!

Certainly we want to hear commentary from as many folks as possible, including judges, but will it unduly influence the draft to have judges posting scores or rankings? Just curious what is the consensus.Besides the aforementioned rankings issue, some judges had an enormous influence on how people drafted, i.e., rabidfireweasel in the Artist category. Does anyone think like there should be some general guidelines other than spotlighting for judges commentary? Again, just want to get a feel for the general consensus.

 

[Thorn]

FUBAR - this is not intended directly at you, just using your post as an example.

timschochet - we had some issues in the Greatest American Draft with the author judge (drafter in this one) posting their rankings with the category still open. This was discussed in the signup thread, the quotes below is from that:

One other point about judges before I have to leave again- I want judges to be involved the whole time and to comment on picks. Not to rank picks as they happen; that would influence the drafting too much. But I would like ongoing commentary.

Even just with commenting, though, the draft can be swayed. Saying someone is a bad choice for a category, for example, can affect the draft.

It's true. I'll comment but will need to be very careful not to Thorn anyone.*Have already been compiling and ordering my list of people in this category. It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out with the limitations on geography. I expect that some of the top folks won't be taken because people use their five from a country on other categories. I expect some creative picks.

*Just a joke, GBT!

Certainly we want to hear commentary from as many folks as possible, including judges, but will it unduly influence the draft to have judges posting scores or rankings? Just curious what is the consensus.Besides the aforementioned rankings issue, some judges had an enormous influence on how people drafted, i.e., rabidfireweasel in the Artist category. Does anyone think like there should be some general guidelines other than spotlighting for judges commentary? Again, just want to get a feel for the general consensus.

 

[krista4]

FUBAR - this is not intended directly at you, just using your post as an example.

timschochet - we had some issues in the Greatest American Draft with the author judge (drafter in this one) posting their rankings with the category still open. This was discussed in the signup thread, the quotes below is from that:

One other point about judges before I have to leave again- I want judges to be involved the whole time and to comment on picks. Not to rank picks as they happen; that would influence the drafting too much. But I would like ongoing commentary.

Even just with commenting, though, the draft can be swayed. Saying someone is a bad choice for a category, for example, can affect the draft.

It's true. I'll comment but will need to be very careful not to Thorn anyone.*Have already been compiling and ordering my list of people in this category. It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out with the limitations on geography. I expect that some of the top folks won't be taken because people use their five from a country on other categories. I expect some creative picks.

*Just a joke, GBT!

Certainly we want to hear commentary from as many folks as possible, including judges, but will it unduly influence the draft to have judges posting scores or rankings? Just curious what is the consensus.Besides the aforementioned rankings issue, some judges had an enormous influence on how people drafted, i.e., rabidfireweasel in the Artist category. Does anyone think like there should be some general guidelines other than spotlighting for judges commentary? Again, just want to get a feel for the general consensus.

It's a really good question. I've been struggling with the idea of how I can give any meaningful feedback without spotlighting or ranking such that people's choices could be affected. Haven't come to a good solution.

 

[timschochet]

Bobbylayne is right. From now on:

Category Judges: Please feel free to comment about each pick, whether you like the pick or not. You can compare the pick to others that have already been made, but not to those who have not been made. (For example, it's okay for someone who is NOT a category judge to write, "You picked the third best guy in this category, I've got 2 others above that guy who have not yet been drafted." It's NOT okay for a category judge to write this.

Do NOT rank picks at this time, or assign any kind of points to picks. But please don't refrain from, within these limits, giving your opinion and engaging in discussion and argument. TIA.

 

[Thorn]

Bobby>I think it depends on what the judge's evaluations are used for. When I gave running rankings in the American draft, I thought that Tim was going to use them as 'guidance,' but do final rankings himself. It turned out that he didn't do that (not sure if I misunderstood or he changed his mind). And now it looks like there might not even be a playoff but merely a point system from the judges rankings. Had I known that, I wouldn't have done what I did.

How will the judges' rankings eventually be used? I think that's the key question.

 

[Abrantes]

Keep commenting. To be honest, I'm so antsy over my top picks that every other post seems like inadvertent spotlighting. It's inevitable, but I don't want people to stop commenting on the picks. That's where most of the fun comes from.

 

[Mario Kart]

Sorry Mario, but when I look among the top 5 picks taken, your choice at #1 really does not belong. I mean shockingly does not belong. The more I think about it, based on where you took this pick, it may very well be the worst draft pick I have ever seen in one of these drafts. No hyperbole.

I think a lot of people are showing, and take no offense, how unworldly American's really are. I wonder how many people are going to take worldly people, such as Sun Tzu, and other past greats that are not known compared to the known people that we have learned about during our childhood. A person like Sun Tzu is learned about on a person's own time, or in college, or the military, but never in any school I have been in. We have to broaden our knowledge of the world and its figures... I did just that by picking Sun Tzu at #1.The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

 

[timschochet]

Bobby>I think it depends on what the judge's evaluations are used for. When I gave running rankings in the American draft, I thought that Tim was going to use them as 'guidance,' but do final rankings himself. It turned out that he didn't do that (not sure if I misunderstood or he changed his mind). And now it looks like there might not even be a playoff but merely a point system from the judges rankings. Had I known that, I wouldn't have done what I did.How will the judges' rankings eventually be used? I think that's the key question.

The plan is they will be used to form a seeding for a playoff, unless people don't want a playoff. In that case, the rankings will be used to determine a champion.

 

[krista4]

Bobbylayne is right. From now on:

Category Judges: Please feel free to comment about each pick, whether you like the pick or not. You can compare the pick to others that have already been made, but not to those who have not been made. (For example, it's okay for someone who is NOT a category judge to write, "You picked the third best guy in this category, I've got 2 others above that guy who have not yet been drafted." It's NOT okay for a category judge to write this.

Do NOT rank picks at this time, or assign any kind of points to picks. But please don't refrain from, within these limits, giving your opinion and engaging in discussion and argument. TIA.

OK, this is helpful.And FWIW, totally not Thorn's fault in the American draft. He was encouraged to give feedback and gave what I thought were really good evaluations. I also thought it was fun to see his long list get filled in. But I understand why we don't want to do it that way this time.

 

[Thorn]

Sorry Mario, but when I look among the top 5 picks taken, your choice at #1 really does not belong. I mean shockingly does not belong. The more I think about it, based on where you took this pick, it may very well be the worst draft pick I have ever seen in one of these drafts. No hyperbole.

I think a lot of people are showing, and take no offense, how unworldly American's really are. I wonder how many people are going to take worldly people, such as Sun Tzu, and other past greats that are not known compared to the known people that we have learned about during our childhood. A person like Sun Tzu is learned about on a person's own time, or in college, or the military, but never in any school I have been in. We have to broaden our knowledge of the world and its figures... I did just that by picking Sun Tzu at #1.The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

I appreciate what you are saying, but Christianity is the most populous religion in the world.

 

[timschochet]

The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

This is a great and interesting point, Mario, but I have to believe that, even under these qualifications, Sun Tzu was still an incredible reach. Without spotlighting, let's just say that if we were doing this draft in China, I have strong doubts that Sun Tzu would have been anywhere near the first pick.

 

[FUBAR]

I'll keep my comments short on the category I'm judging, but I'll give a score 1-10, 10 being highest possible.

Leaders:

1. Leaders This would be the heads of state, whether king, prime minister, dictator, president, etc. The men (and women) who run countries.

Sun Tzu - see the above criteria. I'm really not sure why you list him as a leader. He'd be one of the top military threorists or possibly even philosophers, but as a leader? Incomplete. Muhammad - clearly a 10.

Clearly? As a religious figure, Muhammad is definitely in the top 2, perhaps #1. Overall, he belongs in the first handful of people picked. But as a straight up leader, not sure he's clearly at the top of the list. I'm thinking of some of the other greatest leaders in world history, and The Prophet is probably a little beneath them I think. I would put him in the high 2nd tier as a leader, borderline first tier. Which to me means between 8-9.

That is a suggestion of what I'm using as a criteria. It's not only their time as a leader, what their country accomplished, but also their lasting influence. No leader has had a greater lasting influence worldwide than Muhammad. For example, Hitler accomplished a lot as fuhrer, he also had a lasting influence on the world but his influence is less than Muhammad's is, long term. I could very well end up changing him to religious figure, but I think he sets a standard as leader.

 

[Doug B]

I think there's a natural tendency, when one becomes more expert in a subject, to reject the person held out as "best" within that subject. After all that study and hard work, it's not supposed the be the person you could have picked out from 1000 yards.

Maybe so, but it shouldn't be a reflex action I recognize that you're very much correct, though.

 

[FUBAR]

Bobbylayne is right. From now on:

Category Judges: Please feel free to comment about each pick, whether you like the pick or not. You can compare the pick to others that have already been made, but not to those who have not been made. (For example, it's okay for someone who is NOT a category judge to write, "You picked the third best guy in this category, I've got 2 others above that guy who have not yet been drafted." It's NOT okay for a category judge to write this.

Do NOT rank picks at this time, or assign any kind of points to picks. But please don't refrain from, within these limits, giving your opinion and engaging in discussion and argument. TIA.

it seems anything we write about our category can be taken as influencing the draft. So I will not be discussing any of the leaders taken, period.

 

[DCThunder]

1.08--Leonardo di se Piero da Vinci--Artist/Polymath

From scientist to mathematician, engineer to inventor, anatomist, painter, and sculptor to architect, botanist, musician and writer, this guy could doi it all. Often described as the archetype of the renaissance man, his unquenchable curiosity was equaled only by his powers of invention. Widely considered to be one of the greatest painters of all time and perhaps the most diversely talented person ever to have lived, "The scope and depth of his interests were without precedent...His mind and personality seem to us superhuman, the man himself mysterious and remote".

Leonardo was and is renowned primarily as a painter. Two of his works, the Mona Lisa and The Last Supper, are the most famous, most reproduced and most parodied portrait and religious painting of all time, respectively, their fame approached only by Michelangelo's Creation of Adam.[1] Leonardo's drawing of the Vitruvian Man is also regarded as a cultural icon,[3] being reproduced on everything from the Euro to text books to t-shirts. Perhaps fifteen of his paintings survive, the small number due to his constant, and frequently disastrous, experimentation with new techniques, and his chronic procrastination.[nb 2] Nevertheless, these few works, together with his notebooks, which contain drawings, scientific diagrams, and his thoughts on the nature of painting, comprise a contribution to later generations of artists only rivalled by that of his contemporary,

Leonardo is revered[2] for his technological ingenuity. He conceptualised a helicopter, a tank, concentrated solar power, a calculator, the double hull and outlined a rudimentary theory of plate tectonics.[4] Relatively few of his designs were constructed or were even feasible during his lifetime,[nb 3] but some of his smaller inventions, such as an automated bobbin winder and a machine for testing the tensile strength of wire, entered the world of manufacturing unheralded.[nb 4] As a scientist, he greatly advanced the state of knowledge in the fields of anatomy, civil engineering, optics, and hydrodynamics.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

 

[Mario Kart]

Sorry Mario, but when I look among the top 5 picks taken, your choice at #1 really does not belong. I mean shockingly does not belong. The more I think about it, based on where you took this pick, it may very well be the worst draft pick I have ever seen in one of these drafts. No hyperbole.

I think a lot of people are showing, and take no offense, how unworldly American's really are. I wonder how many people are going to take worldly people, such as Sun Tzu, and other past greats that are not known compared to the known people that we have learned about during our childhood. A person like Sun Tzu is learned about on a person's own time, or in college, or the military, but never in any school I have been in. We have to broaden our knowledge of the world and its figures... I did just that by picking Sun Tzu at #1.The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

I appreciate what you are saying, but Christianity is the most populous religion in the world.

By pure numbers, maybe... today. In the last ~3,000 years would that claim hold true? Also, unlike other religions, Christianity has many sects that "believe" in the teachings of God/Jesus but use them in completely different ways. The Westboro's call themselves Christian but do other Christian's want to be labeled in a similar way as them? I doubt it. I do not like my religion to have dozens of meanings.I know what you mean, but I am just stating what I think and not using this as a debate starter.

 

[Orange Crush]

Bobbylayne is right. From now on:

Category Judges: Please feel free to comment about each pick, whether you like the pick or not. You can compare the pick to others that have already been made, but not to those who have not been made. (For example, it's okay for someone who is NOT a category judge to write, "You picked the third best guy in this category, I've got 2 others above that guy who have not yet been drafted." It's NOT okay for a category judge to write this.

Do NOT rank picks at this time, or assign any kind of points to picks. But please don't refrain from, within these limits, giving your opinion and engaging in discussion and argument. TIA.

it seems anything we write about our category can be taken as influencing the draft. So I will not be discussing any of the leaders taken, period.

I'm going to comment a bit on selections in other categories, but will remain silent until the draft is over on the categories I'm judging.

 

[Abrantes]

Sorry Mario, but when I look among the top 5 picks taken, your choice at #1 really does not belong. I mean shockingly does not belong. The more I think about it, based on where you took this pick, it may very well be the worst draft pick I have ever seen in one of these drafts. No hyperbole.

I think a lot of people are showing, and take no offense, how unworldly American's really are. I wonder how many people are going to take worldly people, such as Sun Tzu, and other past greats that are not known compared to the known people that we have learned about during our childhood. A person like Sun Tzu is learned about on a person's own time, or in college, or the military, but never in any school I have been in. We have to broaden our knowledge of the world and its figures... I did just that by picking Sun Tzu at #1.The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

I appreciate your drafting perspective, but I think you're seriously underestimating Shakespeare's worldwide renown. Although he may not be THE top poet/playwright when polling certain parts of the world (and I can think of at least a couple of clear examples), I'm pretty sure he'd still come out on top when taking the whole world into account.

 

[Thorn]

1.08--Leonardo di se Piero da Vinci--Artist/Polymath

From scientist to mathematician, engineer to inventor, anatomist, painter, and sculptor to architect, botanist, musician and writer, this guy could doi it all. Often described as the archetype of the renaissance man, his unquenchable curiosity was equaled only by his powers of invention. Widely considered to be one of the greatest painters of all time and perhaps the most diversely talented person ever to have lived, "The scope and depth of his interests were without precedent...His mind and personality seem to us superhuman, the man himself mysterious and remote".

Leonardo was and is renowned primarily as a painter. Two of his works, the Mona Lisa and The Last Supper, are the most famous, most reproduced and most parodied portrait and religious painting of all time, respectively, their fame approached only by (redacted).[1] Leonardo's drawing of the Vitruvian Man is also regarded as a cultural icon,[3] being reproduced on everything from the Euro to text books to t-shirts. Perhaps fifteen of his paintings survive, the small number due to his constant, and frequently disastrous, experimentation with new techniques, and his chronic procrastination.[nb 2] Nevertheless, these few works, together with his notebooks, which contain drawings, scientific diagrams, and his thoughts on the nature of painting, comprise a contribution to later generations of artists only rivalled by that of his contemporary, (redacted).

Leonardo is revered[2] for his technological ingenuity. He conceptualised a helicopter, a tank, concentrated solar power, a calculator, the double hull and outlined a rudimentary theory of plate tectonics.[4] Relatively few of his designs were constructed or were even feasible during his lifetime,[nb 3] but some of his smaller inventions, such as an automated bobbin winder and a machine for testing the tensile strength of wire, entered the world of manufacturing unheralded.[nb 4] As a scientist, he greatly advanced the state of knowledge in the fields of anatomy, civil engineering, optics, and hydrodynamics.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

Great pick. I had trouble figuring out where to slot him. Guess that problem is solved. PS you might want to redact where I did.

 

[Mario Kart]

The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

This is a great and interesting point, Mario, but I have to believe that, even under these qualifications, Sun Tzu was still an incredible reach. Without spotlighting, let's just say that if we were doing this draft in China, I have strong doubts that Sun Tzu would have been anywhere near the first pick.

I am not so sure, Sun Tzu, I could see being an easy top 10 in China and possibly other Asian countries. He was also a top 10 in this draft as three people have come forward, me included, as first round worthy. I could see other figures going first in Asian countries in other categories, but as far as Military goes... he is probably top 3 in those same countries given similar parameters.

 

[HERBERT THE HIPPO]

1.2 Leader (of His Heavenly Kingdom)/Military (of His Angelic Army)/Scientist (inventor of the world)/Martyr (for our sins)/Villian (to some)/Religious Figure/Celebrity/Rebel/Intellectual

Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Here are the :confirmed: facts of his life:

He was born somewhere in the area of modern Israel.

He died as a political/religious rebel of some sort.

He was crucified.

everything else is, yes, possibly fictional, but you can't deny that anyone else has had any more effect on the human race than the person that the "most powerful" religion on the planet since ~ 300 AD considers to be God manifest in the flesh.

PLUS he is believed to have literally been perfect from the moment he was born...

and, honestly, none of that really needed to be said. He needs no introduction and even the athiests in the crowd know exactly who this man is (and have for a thousand years in many/most parts of the world)...

Where am I gonna put him? probably religious figure (and yes, a few of those categories were lame attempts at jokes), but he might end up as a martyr or rebel as well...

Who????

 

[Abrantes]

1.08--Leonardo di se Piero da Vinci--Artist/Polymath

From scientist to mathematician, engineer to inventor, anatomist, painter, and sculptor to architect, botanist, musician and writer, this guy could doi it all. Often described as the archetype of the renaissance man, his unquenchable curiosity was equaled only by his powers of invention. Widely considered to be one of the greatest painters of all time and perhaps the most diversely talented person ever to have lived, "The scope and depth of his interests were without precedent...His mind and personality seem to us superhuman, the man himself mysterious and remote".

Leonardo was and is renowned primarily as a painter. Two of his works, the Mona Lisa and The Last Supper, are the most famous, most reproduced and most parodied portrait and religious painting of all time, respectively, their fame approached only by (redacted).[1] Leonardo's drawing of the Vitruvian Man is also regarded as a cultural icon,[3] being reproduced on everything from the Euro to text books to t-shirts. Perhaps fifteen of his paintings survive, the small number due to his constant, and frequently disastrous, experimentation with new techniques, and his chronic procrastination.[nb 2] Nevertheless, these few works, together with his notebooks, which contain drawings, scientific diagrams, and his thoughts on the nature of painting, comprise a contribution to later generations of artists only rivalled by that of his contemporary, (redacted).

Leonardo is revered[2] for his technological ingenuity. He conceptualised a helicopter, a tank, concentrated solar power, a calculator, the double hull and outlined a rudimentary theory of plate tectonics.[4] Relatively few of his designs were constructed or were even feasible during his lifetime,[nb 3] but some of his smaller inventions, such as an automated bobbin winder and a machine for testing the tensile strength of wire, entered the world of manufacturing unheralded.[nb 4] As a scientist, he greatly advanced the state of knowledge in the fields of anatomy, civil engineering, optics, and hydrodynamics.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

Great pick. I had trouble figuring out where to slot him. Guess that problem is solved. PS you might want to redact where I did.

Yeah, I ran into the same problem when I considered him. I guess he fits best as a wildcard, but he's certainly a great pick as an artist as well.

 

[Mister CIA]

1.07 Christopher Columbus, Explorer

Yes I know he has warts. I know he wasn't first, and I know he died not knowing what he accomplished.

But when you think explorer, this is unquestionably who comes to mind. He was willing to take the biggest risk, and in doing so, earned the biggest reward. He made Europe aware of the Americas. There's not just water between Europe and Japan, there's two continents full of resources. He essentially doubled the size of the known world. Four journeys acroos the Atlantic in wooden ships, not to mention discovering and implementing the trade winds to his benefit.

Columbus is definitely in my top 5, probably #3 if I had to narrow it down.

 

[FUBAR]

Sorry Mario, but when I look among the top 5 picks taken, your choice at #1 really does not belong. I mean shockingly does not belong. The more I think about it, based on where you took this pick, it may very well be the worst draft pick I have ever seen in one of these drafts. No hyperbole.

I think a lot of people are showing, and take no offense, how unworldly American's really are. I wonder how many people are going to take worldly people, such as Sun Tzu, and other past greats that are not known compared to the known people that we have learned about during our childhood. A person like Sun Tzu is learned about on a person's own time, or in college, or the military, but never in any school I have been in. We have to broaden our knowledge of the world and its figures... I did just that by picking Sun Tzu at #1.The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

I appreciate what you are saying, but Christianity is the most populous religion in the world.

True, but it's shrinking. Currently 32% (dropping) While Islam is 19% (growing). Further, if current trends continue, Islam will become the most popular world religion sometime in the mid-21st century.As a Christian who has spent some time among Muslims, it seems to me more Muslims follow the religion closer than most Christians. Many Christians call themselves that in name only. Some Muslims do to, but it's less so.

 

[Mario Kart]

I appreciate your drafting perspective, but I think you're seriously underestimating Shakespeare's worldwide renown. Although he may not be THE top poet/playwright when polling certain parts of the world (and I can think of at least a couple of clear examples), I'm pretty sure he'd still come out on top when taking the whole world into account.

I know Shakespere has world renown and from the Western perspective, he may be the clear cut #1 guy. From a world wide perspective he probably is top 3, maybe top 5, but not the clear #1 unlike some claims in this thread. Same goes for each pick so far. Western thinking may have Sun Tzu in the top 10 because us westerners prefer victory over theory, we prefer results over process. Different mind sets.And, I would appreciate for the betterment of the draft, that people do not refer to any picks as "reaches" as that notion is absurd. I am on a Mac and did not get to use the World Figure Draft Dominator but I did not find any cheat sheets or VBD app for this either. Also, Sun Tzu would not have made it to #20... so it was not a reach as he would never have come back to me. And, I am not going to pick the consensus pick, as it appeared Jesus was the consensus #1... in Western thought.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Sorry Mario, but when I look among the top 5 picks taken, your choice at #1 really does not belong. I mean shockingly does not belong. The more I think about it, based on where you took this pick, it may very well be the worst draft pick I have ever seen in one of these drafts. No hyperbole.

I think a lot of people are showing, and take no offense, how unworldly American's really are. I wonder how many people are going to take worldly people, such as Sun Tzu, and other past greats that are not known compared to the known people that we have learned about during our childhood. A person like Sun Tzu is learned about on a person's own time, or in college, or the military, but never in any school I have been in. We have to broaden our knowledge of the world and its figures... I did just that by picking Sun Tzu at #1.The few picks that have come after mine are readily known figures that everybody knows... in America. If we went to China, India, Japan many Russian areas... how many people would pick Jesus as the #1 overall person in the world? Maybe... maybe 1% of them and that is being very generous. How many people in those same areas would pick Shakesphere (nothing against the pick) as the #1 playwright/poet? Again, not many. I just see Columbus was picked... again, how many of those individuals would pick him as the #1 explorer?I am using this draft as a way to think worldly from an outer space perspective. Looking down on Earth, oddly almost in a God like manner, and looking at the human history of man and am going to pick people that reflect a worldly existence. There have been two people picked (Sun Tzu and Muhammad) who have a less than Western point of view. The other five, as I write this, are all well known to us, Americans, Westerners, because we have learned about them for years and years. Lets learn about the world without placating each other.

If we do this draft in China, Sun Tzu isn't the first pick, so that kinda destroys the rest of your point, which I don't agree with anyway. Look, I get that you are thinking outside the box, so to speak. Problem is that the box doesn't need too much outside thought here. The reason the top guys are known is because they really are the top guys. In India, Sun Tzu isn't in the first round. In Japan, same thing. In Russia, they don't even think of him. If you want to play that game with every pick we can. The criticism with the pick isn't the pick itself but the placement. In a conversation of the World's Greatest, he doesn't rank with some already drafted and many yet to be.