shining path
:prettyplease:
Looks like Yankee is on the intellectuals. Should I still do a ranking, or would that just confuse things.
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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Sorry - had to deal with a client - coming in 10.
shining path
:prettyplease:
Is there another category in need of a good, vigorous judging? Is OC slacking on the scientists?
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
shiny cehck your pm
Doug B
Footballguy
Be sure to itemize the bill. Tell us what your client's face looks like when they see the line item for "FFA DRAFT RANKING - 4 HRS".
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I've pm'ed shiny my rankings. I was just about to post when I saw his post above. If he has a terrible problem with them I will hold off and wait for tim to say who is the judge here.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Actually, it will be:Review file/CTC/misc................................ 3 blocks. (each block, 15 minutes)
thatguy
Footballguy
Fourth is a nice place to be. Just ask AoD.
Abrantes
Footballguy
Maybe we should call upon Larry's judge-judging powers to settle this.Either that or a cage match.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
shiny has PMed me back to say that he is fine with me being judge, I approached the rankings the way he would have and has promised me some insight on his ideas. I will read that, then post my rankings (and yes it is possible he changes my mind - god knows ranking the top 10 is impossible).
shining path
:prettyplease:
This is true. The top 5 is especially brutal.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
20. Garry Kasparaov - He just might be one of the smartest people to ever be born, and is the greatest chess player to ever live. Problem is, just being smart isn't a criteria for the category. And playing chess has little if any influence on the world and the interactions of men with each other. No matter how many times I look in this grouping of players, I can't find anything that bumps him up.
19. Umberto Eco - He isn't a pioneer in any field, nor does he have an influence that spans the world in terms of political, economic or societal theory. His focus is on literature itself and in those writings he creates, he touches on dozens of intellectual topics. But, overall, he isn't a king or author who has challenged or even changed the world. Which is the reason some of the next guys bump over him.
18. Frederick Douglass - Unlike Eco I can touch something tangible here. He was a great man in our history, which necessarily begs the question of how important he was to the world. As I've said, this wasn't the only country with a slavery problem, nor was he the only activist against it, nor the only black leader at the time. To be sure, he was one of the greatest but there is not a ton of translation to the world as a whole. "I would unite with anybody to do right, and with nobody to do wrong," just might be one of the most powerful statesments ever made by an American. I also wonder if he isn't better suited to a rebel category, in that he was, by all acounts, more a revolutionary then an intellectual. He might also fit better in the humanitarian category as well given his struggle for equality.
17. Hammurabi - He was selected here for the Hammurabi Code. It was one of the first written set of laws in recorded history, but it wasn't the first. What made it important was the language used - that of the common people so that anyone literate could read them - and the fact that they were written and posted in the kingdom. Hammurabi claimed to have been given the law by the gods, which in terms of the actual act of being an intellectual, is problematic. Also, while the ideal of a written set of laws has now become a bedrock principal in nations, it isn't his law. And much of the laws in the code would be considered barbaric these days - very much an eye for an eye type of guy he was. The biggest problem that he and the next guy have is not their weaknesses here in this grouping, but the strengths of the higher ranked players.
16. Justinian - His Justinian law was created by his order to codify and rework some of the already existing law of the kingdom he wanted to rebuild. He was a leader conqueror and very astute administrator who helped to build the Byzantine empire in the hopes of rebuilding the Roman Empire. The plague would kill that idea and many many of his people. But the reason he was selected here was the roman law that is still to this day found in the common law throughout the western world. Again, we are stuck with the realization, though, that he didn't write these laws. They remain influential, and codifying over 300 years of law from such a large empire is an astounding task, but in the end, that is what it was.
15. Leon Trotsky - I'm guessing this is the first real attack on my rankings here. I admit my personal bias shows here, but to me Trotsky is a revolutionary, and perhaps one of the greatest. As an intellectual, his school of Marxism is just that - a school of Marxism. It's almost identical, but there are exceptions. Again though, one of the major exceptions, and backbone of the thought, is the perpetual revolution, something that wasn't very difficult to comprehend in theory. And it could be argued that what his perpetual revolution wanted to fight was a world given over to the theories of men higher up on this list. His influence is still felt today, but not in a major way in my opinion. Again, in looking through the guys from here at 15 up through 10, they can pretty much go in any order based on the argument of the day. This feels right though. To me.
14. Thomas Jefferson - we all know my particular bias against this man, though I pained to rank him over the guys above. A quick review of his intellectual contributions to this world starts with the Declaration of Independence - a document he wrote but not solely as his work, and the ideas therein are not his sole philosophy. He wrote it because he was the best writer, and from Virginia. The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was a good work, but you can't help but hear some of the men coming in this ranking in the words Jefferson wrote and it doesn't exactly sweep the world in influence. The rest of his "best" work wasn't intellectual but political for the most part. The leader of a political party, the author of numerous writings designed as political statements and attacks and even being President of the United States do not all translate into a solid intellectual. If there was a statesman category, which there should have been, he'd be up there in that, and he was the first pick in the Great America Draft. But in terms of world wide influence from men categorized as intellectuals, most of his greatest work was standing on the shoulders of other men and writing their words more poetically.
13. Pythagorus of Samos - We all know the theorum. His philosophical movement fits here a little better then in the philosophy category because it was based on numbers and mathematics, and the interactions that they could define and dictate. No written works survive, unfortunately, and I found this funny - Aristotle was quoted as saying that some believed Pythagorus could travel through space and time. In the end, though, the intellectual exercise of turing music notes into numbers and being worshipped by a small small sect of a particular religion doesn't change what the guys above him were able to do. And not for nothing, but I know I'm not the only one that went through physical pain in geometry class, so this is payback!
12. William Blackstone - This is going to get me yelled at as well. He was a great jurist, and his work Commentaries on the Laws of England is an influential work in America, even today, although less so. It is also cleraly an influential work in England, however as wiki mentions - correctly - his work most mostly "synthetic" instead of original. His current influence in human interactions is as a reference point for pre-Revolution American jurisprudence. That doesn't translate as well worldwide as his name and reputation seem to demand.
11. Sigmund Freud - Best known for his theories of the unconscious mind, he is the father of sex psychoanalysis. Some of his ideas still influence sex other aspects like social science and the humanities. He was an early proponent and user of sex cocaine, which if not for him sex, we might not have Eric Clapton's great song. But in the end his work with the mind was sex revolutionary and opened up worlds of science sex that weren't possible prior. And even when his conclusions have been disagreed with sex, many practitioners sex still use his methods. It appears, and I didn't know this, that there is a group of practitioners who think he set the practice back, and didn't move it forward. Either way, his impact throughout our world, right down to the cultural iconography of his work sex cannot be diminished. A similar practitioner was drafted as well.
The top 10........
10. Carl von Clausewitz - His, On War is still studied today making it one of the more influential works in our times of the people on this list. It's singular focus on war, while hitting somewhat on political theory, boxes it in though in ways that the men above either aren't or are not affected by. There is a movement that questions whether his work is influential in the nuclear age, but all you need to do is grab a copy of Crimson Tide and watch the dinner scene with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington to know that his work, and it's influence, is still very much a player in military theory. War is a continuation of politics by other means. It sounds simple. And in the nuclear age might sound obsolete; but it isn't. It's very complicated. Something he seemed to know in his writing. How great would it be to sit at a table with von Clausewitz and Machiavelli for a night?
9. Thomas Malthus - Before I get to the reasoning, can I just say that his epithat is without question one of the greatest ever - Sacred to the memory of the Rev Thomas Robert Malthus, long known to the lettered world by his admirable writings on the social branches of political economy, particularly by his essay on population. One of the best men and truest philosophers of any age or country, raised by native dignity of mind above the misrepresentation of the ignorant and the neglect of the great, he lived a serene and happy life devoted to the pursuit and communication of truth. Supported by a calm but firm conviction of the usefulness of his labors. Content with the approbation of the wise and good. His writings will be a lasting monument of the extent and correctness of his understanding. The spotless integrity of his principles, the equity and candour of his nature, his sweetness of temper, urbanity of manners and tenderness of heart, his benevolence and his piety are still dearer recollections of his family and friends. Born February 14, 1766 Died December 29, 1834. To be remember by men like that is simply remarkable.
I would describe Malthus' theories as such - they are pretty accurate in a general sense, but no one will admit that, nor militantly demand their prosecution, except maybe Smoo. But influential they are. His work on population theory and its effects on economy and now politics is still being flushed out this century. His work influenced Darwin, and in a way has done work that seems to suggest that Phythagorus was close to right in some respects. As the world continues to strink in this century, the effects of population will be at the forefront of all domestic government policy. It might not be fair to give him credit, all of my own opinion, for something that hasn't happened yet, but I do think that his ultimate influence has yet to be truly felt.
8. Francis Bacon - He was the real Shakespeare. Ok, I won't go there. But he was the leader of the foundation of the American colonies in Virginia, the Carolina and Newfoundland. His work pioneered the scientific method. And his work is still the backbone of what is considered proper methodology. His work in philosophical circles wasn't the norm, instead he is credited with coming up with a way to develop philosophy. He heralded the use of reason in all aspects of life, which calls into question his apparant corruption as a politician. And his famous maxim, 'knowledge is power,' is still an influential tool in today's world. There was a part of me that kept thinking he was too high here. But there is also a part of me that is surprised he isn't higher. I guess then, in my mind, this ranking works.
7. Carl Jung - I'm confident that if there were students of psychology reading this, my ranking of Jung over Freud would start a war not seen since, well, Bruce Lee over, anyone else. He was the founder of analytical pyschology, and the man who first truly studied the human mind in depth and beyond even from what Freud did. His theories are actually the underpining of Alcoholics Anonymous (I didn't know that until I read it). He was a user of reason but didn't allow that to stop the complicated nature of the mind. His work allowed for spirituality, art, music and many others as a way into the mind to extract healing from trauma and the repressed emotions that Freud stopped at. His work, as he saw it, expanded on Freud's regarding the unconscious.
6. Thucydides - What can you say about the man that is seen as a major influence on Machiavelli, Newton, Nietzsche, and much of the ancient writers that outlived him? His efforts in the fields changed the way histories - and the way peoples think of and learn from their histories - were completed. His text is still studied in military schools to this day. And his approach altered the method gathering evidence not just for history, but arguably for science as well. Like Hippocrates in medicine, no longer were the gods the ones that came down and did something or intervened. Something happened, he wrote it down without mythilogical intervention, and in doing so really changed the way it was all done. It's amazing to think that something so simple as actually recording what was seen and what there is actual evidence of could have been so groundbreaking. Yet it was. And continues to be the major underlying foundation of everything done in history and science. Cause. Effect. Simple. Revolutionary.
The top 5 here are impossible. I know the rules, but I'm going to rank Smith anyway and if Tim wants to move him, so be it. I don't think I'm coming close to bias in having Smith in the top 5 here, and if I am then I'm sure tim will move him - although I obviously disagree with it.
5. John Locke - I've tried not to quote wiki or other websites in these writeups, but I think his is perfect, so forgive me for a moment of plagurism: Locke is considered the first of the British empiricists, but is equally important to social contract theory. His ideas had enormous influence on the development of epistemology and political philosophy, and he is widely regarded as one of the most influential Enlightenment thinkers, classical republicans, and contributors to liberal theory. His writings influenced Voltaire and Rousseau, many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. This influence is reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.
Locke's theory of mind is often cited as the origin for modern conceptions of identity and "the self", figuring prominently in the later works of philosophers such as David Hume, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Immanuel Kant. Locke was the first philosopher to define the self through a continuity of "consciousness". That is some heavy heavy influence in our times, and when measured again world history is pretty amazing. His work on liberty influenced Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton and the rest of our founders and his social contract work basically makes him the father of today's libertarian. Basically, his influence on western political thought is remarkable. That he also shows influence in other arena's is amazing. I could see an argument for him - or anyone above him -being #1.
4. Thomas Hobbes - If Locke is 5, then Hobbes follows almost by default and as I was going through my rankings I had the two of them together each and every time. The work of Locke was sprung by Hobbes, and his masterpiece, Leviathan. This is the work that established the thought woven into all of western political philosophy. His work in other fields continues to be influential as well. I have a hard time writing much more becuase by doing so I'm going to undervalue everything he did - I simply am not capable of expressing how important his work was. Even if you don't agree with him, his influence is amazing.
3. Niccolo Machiavelli - Calling him the father of modern political science might not be broad enough to categorize his influence. Anyone who has ever read The Prince cannot help but be blown away with the simplicity and power of his description of true reasoned political science. What Plato and Aristotle are to the theoretical perfect society, Machiavelli is to the true reasoned and human controlled bloody and messy reality of society.
2. John Maynard Keynes - It pains me to put him here, but if you view economics the way I do then you have no choice. His macroeconomic theories are the basis now of the western world. And in allowing it to become such the very face of the western world will change. He took free markets and inserted government intervention into them, and then stood back and allowed that intervention to be viewed as the savior of the free market itself. If that isn't an amazing dog and pony show, then there is no such thing. While his theories fell out of favor for a period starting in the '70's, they never really went away and the western economies were never pure free markets. Now he is back with a force that might once and for all destroy any vestige of the "purity" of Smith's world - if it was there to begin with.
1. Adam Smith - As I said, tim can move him if he wants, but I don't know where you move him except up. The Wealth of Nations is probably the most important work in the history of not just economics, but politics as well - for it describes the economic theories upon which all societies must function. There is no government for the rest of the guys to build without economy. Economy is everything, even if you believe in the evil of money, the fact remains that it is the one true constant in all forms of government. And Smith's work is the most important in the field. The whole study of economics rests on his work and flows from it. I understand that I might get hit for ranking my own guy #1, but truth be told - in all honesty - I really don't know where else to put him, and shiny agrees with me which just might be the first time that has ever happened. But I leave it to tim to make that final call.
Attack away!
19. Umberto Eco - He isn't a pioneer in any field, nor does he have an influence that spans the world in terms of political, economic or societal theory. His focus is on literature itself and in those writings he creates, he touches on dozens of intellectual topics. But, overall, he isn't a king or author who has challenged or even changed the world. Which is the reason some of the next guys bump over him.
18. Frederick Douglass - Unlike Eco I can touch something tangible here. He was a great man in our history, which necessarily begs the question of how important he was to the world. As I've said, this wasn't the only country with a slavery problem, nor was he the only activist against it, nor the only black leader at the time. To be sure, he was one of the greatest but there is not a ton of translation to the world as a whole. "I would unite with anybody to do right, and with nobody to do wrong," just might be one of the most powerful statesments ever made by an American. I also wonder if he isn't better suited to a rebel category, in that he was, by all acounts, more a revolutionary then an intellectual. He might also fit better in the humanitarian category as well given his struggle for equality.
17. Hammurabi - He was selected here for the Hammurabi Code. It was one of the first written set of laws in recorded history, but it wasn't the first. What made it important was the language used - that of the common people so that anyone literate could read them - and the fact that they were written and posted in the kingdom. Hammurabi claimed to have been given the law by the gods, which in terms of the actual act of being an intellectual, is problematic. Also, while the ideal of a written set of laws has now become a bedrock principal in nations, it isn't his law. And much of the laws in the code would be considered barbaric these days - very much an eye for an eye type of guy he was. The biggest problem that he and the next guy have is not their weaknesses here in this grouping, but the strengths of the higher ranked players.
16. Justinian - His Justinian law was created by his order to codify and rework some of the already existing law of the kingdom he wanted to rebuild. He was a leader conqueror and very astute administrator who helped to build the Byzantine empire in the hopes of rebuilding the Roman Empire. The plague would kill that idea and many many of his people. But the reason he was selected here was the roman law that is still to this day found in the common law throughout the western world. Again, we are stuck with the realization, though, that he didn't write these laws. They remain influential, and codifying over 300 years of law from such a large empire is an astounding task, but in the end, that is what it was.
15. Leon Trotsky - I'm guessing this is the first real attack on my rankings here. I admit my personal bias shows here, but to me Trotsky is a revolutionary, and perhaps one of the greatest. As an intellectual, his school of Marxism is just that - a school of Marxism. It's almost identical, but there are exceptions. Again though, one of the major exceptions, and backbone of the thought, is the perpetual revolution, something that wasn't very difficult to comprehend in theory. And it could be argued that what his perpetual revolution wanted to fight was a world given over to the theories of men higher up on this list. His influence is still felt today, but not in a major way in my opinion. Again, in looking through the guys from here at 15 up through 10, they can pretty much go in any order based on the argument of the day. This feels right though. To me.
14. Thomas Jefferson - we all know my particular bias against this man, though I pained to rank him over the guys above. A quick review of his intellectual contributions to this world starts with the Declaration of Independence - a document he wrote but not solely as his work, and the ideas therein are not his sole philosophy. He wrote it because he was the best writer, and from Virginia. The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was a good work, but you can't help but hear some of the men coming in this ranking in the words Jefferson wrote and it doesn't exactly sweep the world in influence. The rest of his "best" work wasn't intellectual but political for the most part. The leader of a political party, the author of numerous writings designed as political statements and attacks and even being President of the United States do not all translate into a solid intellectual. If there was a statesman category, which there should have been, he'd be up there in that, and he was the first pick in the Great America Draft. But in terms of world wide influence from men categorized as intellectuals, most of his greatest work was standing on the shoulders of other men and writing their words more poetically.
13. Pythagorus of Samos - We all know the theorum. His philosophical movement fits here a little better then in the philosophy category because it was based on numbers and mathematics, and the interactions that they could define and dictate. No written works survive, unfortunately, and I found this funny - Aristotle was quoted as saying that some believed Pythagorus could travel through space and time. In the end, though, the intellectual exercise of turing music notes into numbers and being worshipped by a small small sect of a particular religion doesn't change what the guys above him were able to do. And not for nothing, but I know I'm not the only one that went through physical pain in geometry class, so this is payback!
12. William Blackstone - This is going to get me yelled at as well. He was a great jurist, and his work Commentaries on the Laws of England is an influential work in America, even today, although less so. It is also cleraly an influential work in England, however as wiki mentions - correctly - his work most mostly "synthetic" instead of original. His current influence in human interactions is as a reference point for pre-Revolution American jurisprudence. That doesn't translate as well worldwide as his name and reputation seem to demand.
11. Sigmund Freud - Best known for his theories of the unconscious mind, he is the father of sex psychoanalysis. Some of his ideas still influence sex other aspects like social science and the humanities. He was an early proponent and user of sex cocaine, which if not for him sex, we might not have Eric Clapton's great song. But in the end his work with the mind was sex revolutionary and opened up worlds of science sex that weren't possible prior. And even when his conclusions have been disagreed with sex, many practitioners sex still use his methods. It appears, and I didn't know this, that there is a group of practitioners who think he set the practice back, and didn't move it forward. Either way, his impact throughout our world, right down to the cultural iconography of his work sex cannot be diminished. A similar practitioner was drafted as well.
The top 10........
10. Carl von Clausewitz - His, On War is still studied today making it one of the more influential works in our times of the people on this list. It's singular focus on war, while hitting somewhat on political theory, boxes it in though in ways that the men above either aren't or are not affected by. There is a movement that questions whether his work is influential in the nuclear age, but all you need to do is grab a copy of Crimson Tide and watch the dinner scene with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington to know that his work, and it's influence, is still very much a player in military theory. War is a continuation of politics by other means. It sounds simple. And in the nuclear age might sound obsolete; but it isn't. It's very complicated. Something he seemed to know in his writing. How great would it be to sit at a table with von Clausewitz and Machiavelli for a night?
9. Thomas Malthus - Before I get to the reasoning, can I just say that his epithat is without question one of the greatest ever - Sacred to the memory of the Rev Thomas Robert Malthus, long known to the lettered world by his admirable writings on the social branches of political economy, particularly by his essay on population. One of the best men and truest philosophers of any age or country, raised by native dignity of mind above the misrepresentation of the ignorant and the neglect of the great, he lived a serene and happy life devoted to the pursuit and communication of truth. Supported by a calm but firm conviction of the usefulness of his labors. Content with the approbation of the wise and good. His writings will be a lasting monument of the extent and correctness of his understanding. The spotless integrity of his principles, the equity and candour of his nature, his sweetness of temper, urbanity of manners and tenderness of heart, his benevolence and his piety are still dearer recollections of his family and friends. Born February 14, 1766 Died December 29, 1834. To be remember by men like that is simply remarkable.
I would describe Malthus' theories as such - they are pretty accurate in a general sense, but no one will admit that, nor militantly demand their prosecution, except maybe Smoo. But influential they are. His work on population theory and its effects on economy and now politics is still being flushed out this century. His work influenced Darwin, and in a way has done work that seems to suggest that Phythagorus was close to right in some respects. As the world continues to strink in this century, the effects of population will be at the forefront of all domestic government policy. It might not be fair to give him credit, all of my own opinion, for something that hasn't happened yet, but I do think that his ultimate influence has yet to be truly felt.
8. Francis Bacon - He was the real Shakespeare. Ok, I won't go there. But he was the leader of the foundation of the American colonies in Virginia, the Carolina and Newfoundland. His work pioneered the scientific method. And his work is still the backbone of what is considered proper methodology. His work in philosophical circles wasn't the norm, instead he is credited with coming up with a way to develop philosophy. He heralded the use of reason in all aspects of life, which calls into question his apparant corruption as a politician. And his famous maxim, 'knowledge is power,' is still an influential tool in today's world. There was a part of me that kept thinking he was too high here. But there is also a part of me that is surprised he isn't higher. I guess then, in my mind, this ranking works.
7. Carl Jung - I'm confident that if there were students of psychology reading this, my ranking of Jung over Freud would start a war not seen since, well, Bruce Lee over, anyone else. He was the founder of analytical pyschology, and the man who first truly studied the human mind in depth and beyond even from what Freud did. His theories are actually the underpining of Alcoholics Anonymous (I didn't know that until I read it). He was a user of reason but didn't allow that to stop the complicated nature of the mind. His work allowed for spirituality, art, music and many others as a way into the mind to extract healing from trauma and the repressed emotions that Freud stopped at. His work, as he saw it, expanded on Freud's regarding the unconscious.
6. Thucydides - What can you say about the man that is seen as a major influence on Machiavelli, Newton, Nietzsche, and much of the ancient writers that outlived him? His efforts in the fields changed the way histories - and the way peoples think of and learn from their histories - were completed. His text is still studied in military schools to this day. And his approach altered the method gathering evidence not just for history, but arguably for science as well. Like Hippocrates in medicine, no longer were the gods the ones that came down and did something or intervened. Something happened, he wrote it down without mythilogical intervention, and in doing so really changed the way it was all done. It's amazing to think that something so simple as actually recording what was seen and what there is actual evidence of could have been so groundbreaking. Yet it was. And continues to be the major underlying foundation of everything done in history and science. Cause. Effect. Simple. Revolutionary.
The top 5 here are impossible. I know the rules, but I'm going to rank Smith anyway and if Tim wants to move him, so be it. I don't think I'm coming close to bias in having Smith in the top 5 here, and if I am then I'm sure tim will move him - although I obviously disagree with it.
5. John Locke - I've tried not to quote wiki or other websites in these writeups, but I think his is perfect, so forgive me for a moment of plagurism: Locke is considered the first of the British empiricists, but is equally important to social contract theory. His ideas had enormous influence on the development of epistemology and political philosophy, and he is widely regarded as one of the most influential Enlightenment thinkers, classical republicans, and contributors to liberal theory. His writings influenced Voltaire and Rousseau, many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. This influence is reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.
Locke's theory of mind is often cited as the origin for modern conceptions of identity and "the self", figuring prominently in the later works of philosophers such as David Hume, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Immanuel Kant. Locke was the first philosopher to define the self through a continuity of "consciousness". That is some heavy heavy influence in our times, and when measured again world history is pretty amazing. His work on liberty influenced Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton and the rest of our founders and his social contract work basically makes him the father of today's libertarian. Basically, his influence on western political thought is remarkable. That he also shows influence in other arena's is amazing. I could see an argument for him - or anyone above him -being #1.
4. Thomas Hobbes - If Locke is 5, then Hobbes follows almost by default and as I was going through my rankings I had the two of them together each and every time. The work of Locke was sprung by Hobbes, and his masterpiece, Leviathan. This is the work that established the thought woven into all of western political philosophy. His work in other fields continues to be influential as well. I have a hard time writing much more becuase by doing so I'm going to undervalue everything he did - I simply am not capable of expressing how important his work was. Even if you don't agree with him, his influence is amazing.
3. Niccolo Machiavelli - Calling him the father of modern political science might not be broad enough to categorize his influence. Anyone who has ever read The Prince cannot help but be blown away with the simplicity and power of his description of true reasoned political science. What Plato and Aristotle are to the theoretical perfect society, Machiavelli is to the true reasoned and human controlled bloody and messy reality of society.
2. John Maynard Keynes - It pains me to put him here, but if you view economics the way I do then you have no choice. His macroeconomic theories are the basis now of the western world. And in allowing it to become such the very face of the western world will change. He took free markets and inserted government intervention into them, and then stood back and allowed that intervention to be viewed as the savior of the free market itself. If that isn't an amazing dog and pony show, then there is no such thing. While his theories fell out of favor for a period starting in the '70's, they never really went away and the western economies were never pure free markets. Now he is back with a force that might once and for all destroy any vestige of the "purity" of Smith's world - if it was there to begin with.
1. Adam Smith - As I said, tim can move him if he wants, but I don't know where you move him except up. The Wealth of Nations is probably the most important work in the history of not just economics, but politics as well - for it describes the economic theories upon which all societies must function. There is no government for the rest of the guys to build without economy. Economy is everything, even if you believe in the evil of money, the fact remains that it is the one true constant in all forms of government. And Smith's work is the most important in the field. The whole study of economics rests on his work and flows from it. I understand that I might get hit for ranking my own guy #1, but truth be told - in all honesty - I really don't know where else to put him, and shiny agrees with me which just might be the first time that has ever happened. But I leave it to tim to make that final call.
Attack away!
Last edited by a moderator:
shining path
:prettyplease:
I think it would be very, very difficult to move anyone in front of Smith. He's got the total package. Novel ideas, correct ideas, and by far the most important ideas.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
In the interest of telling both sides of the story...I don't have the book you are referring to, but in reading through the 9 customer reviews or the editorial reviews at Amazon, I don't fnd anything close to your impressions:
Amazaon customer reviews for Nazi Hunter
Editorial Reviews
Couldn't find a NYT review. I wish I had access to the book you are referring to so I answer this directly.
Anyway, I do know there has been a long running feud between Wiesenthal and Mossad:
I'll let the reader decide.
Orange Crush
Footballguy
Abrantes
Footballguy
Yuck. I do agree that he deserves to be ranked highly (although I might have switched him and Machiavelli), but I'm not a fan at all.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I know you've gotten your share of bad rankings and won't care but Freud outside of the top 5 or 6 is absurd.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
shining path
:prettyplease:
Yankee had Freud at 7. I talked him out of it because so many of Freuds ideas turned out to be incorrect. I wanted Clausewitz in the top 10.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I had Freud anywhere from 6 to 12 each and every time I looked. In the end I was thinking of keeping him near 6 but it just didn't look right to me. My biggest problem is that 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, and 16-20 can be in any order with the group and I can even see arguments to move them around between groups. And it came down to really really trying to figure out if I put him in the top 10, who do I move?
Mario Kart
Footballguy
I have no problem with this. Based on what normal people know, both are influential. When I was doing my undergrad work, I had a class that introduced Alfred Adler into the realm. In part, most intro classes revolve around Freud with others sprinkled in. Anyway, Adler's thought blew me away more so than any other Psychologist. I am not a fan of Freud.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Stay classy, Yankee.
If tim moves him, that's ok. But, assuming for a second that the rest of the rankings are good - where does he go?
Abrantes
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Before I address Yankee, a quick response to BL and Weisenthal: my main objection to Weisenthal is not the feud between him and the Mossad, it's simply that I'm not sure he even qualifies as a humanitarian. He did not save lives. He searched for criminals. He is, in fact, more of a policeman and crime fighter.
Doug B
Footballguy
As long as Adam Smith stays ahead of Thomas Malthus, here's the breakdown of my squad's rankings. 13 out of 22 picks fell in the 6-10 ranking range. 7 others were top-4-ranked. 19 out of 22 picks ranked higher than their selection order (David was 13/13, Wilberforce was 4/7, and Louis Armstrong was 2/6):
Entry - Judges' Rank
Artist (Non-painter): Michelangelo (1.9) - 1
Wild Card: Julius Caesar (2.12) - 1
Painter: Rembrandt van Rijn (5.9) - 2
Wild Card: John Dalton (22.12) - 2
World Leader: George Washington (3.9) - 3
Villain: Vlad Ţepeş (8.12) - 3
Discover/Explorer: Leif Ericson (18.12) - 4
Military: Duke Arthur Wellesley of Wellington (19.9) - 6
Inventor: Charles Babbage (13.9) - 6
Musician/Performer: Louis Armstrong (6.12) - 6
Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr: William Wilberforce (4.12) - 7
Philosopher: St. Thomas Aquinas (9.9) - 7
Scientist/Mathematician: Michael Faraday (7.9) - 8
Novelists: George Orwell (20.12) - 8
Playwright/Poet: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (11.9) - 8
Composer: Joseph Haydn (10.12) - 8
Intellectual: Thomas Malthus (16.12) - 9
Rebel: Lech Wałęsa (15.9) - 9
Celebrity: Charlie Chaplin (14.12) - 10
Wild Card: Prince Henry the Navigator (17.9) - 10
Religious Figure: King David (12.12) - 13
Athlete: Nadia Comăneci (21.9) - 19
Entry - Judges' Rank
Artist (Non-painter): Michelangelo (1.9) - 1
Wild Card: Julius Caesar (2.12) - 1
Painter: Rembrandt van Rijn (5.9) - 2
Wild Card: John Dalton (22.12) - 2
World Leader: George Washington (3.9) - 3
Villain: Vlad Ţepeş (8.12) - 3
Discover/Explorer: Leif Ericson (18.12) - 4
Military: Duke Arthur Wellesley of Wellington (19.9) - 6
Inventor: Charles Babbage (13.9) - 6
Musician/Performer: Louis Armstrong (6.12) - 6
Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr: William Wilberforce (4.12) - 7
Philosopher: St. Thomas Aquinas (9.9) - 7
Scientist/Mathematician: Michael Faraday (7.9) - 8
Novelists: George Orwell (20.12) - 8
Playwright/Poet: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (11.9) - 8
Composer: Joseph Haydn (10.12) - 8
Intellectual: Thomas Malthus (16.12) - 9
Rebel: Lech Wałęsa (15.9) - 9
Celebrity: Charlie Chaplin (14.12) - 10
Wild Card: Prince Henry the Navigator (17.9) - 10
Religious Figure: King David (12.12) - 13
Athlete: Nadia Comăneci (21.9) - 19
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
If it were me, I would have put him in the athlete category if the criteria was "competition". Those marathon chess tournaments would leave Bruce Lee crying.
I was hoping for higher, but I can deal with this. Where would you have put Sun Tzu?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I thought 7 was pretty dead on. You had him anywhere in tier 2 but then stuck him in tier 3 at the last minute. I can't argue about it much at work right now though but even the theories no longer accepted blew the hinges off the understanding of minds and behavior.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, on to Yankee. First, I really wish you hadn't ranked Smith, because it creates a quandary for me. And here it is:
I BELIEVE THE #1 INTELLECTUAL SHOULD HAVE BEEN SIGMUND FREUD.
Why Freud over Jung? Because Freud is the first man who decided that the human mind was a field of study. He created a whole new science. Others have contributed to the science since, and some, like Jung (arguably) may have provided as much or more knowledge that is relevant to us today. But Freud is the one who started it all.
Why Freud over everyone else on the list? Because first, his particular field of study has greater reaching implications upon the future of human civilization, and second, because he is more important to his field of study than any of the others are to theirs. Now I realize that both statements on my part are going to raise quite a bit of argument and Yankee does not agree. I happen to agree with you, Yankee, that Adam Smith is the most important economic thinker who ever lived, with the possible exception of Karl Marx, who is not in this category. But I cannot place Adam Smith above Sigmund Freud, who I regard as the #1 intellectual of all time. I won't do it.
So obviously we disagree, and rather than belabor our disagreement, Yankee, I offer you the following compromise: move Freud up in the rankings as far as you are comfortable with. Where ever you move him to, I'll slot Adam Smith in the same spot, and they'll be tied at that ranking. If you leave things the way they are, then I will put Smith at #11, tied with Freud.
I do think Smith deserves top 2 or 3 ranking, but not above Freud. If you want to move Freud up to #1, then I'll have Smith tied with him for #1, and you'll get your 20 points. It's up to you.
I BELIEVE THE #1 INTELLECTUAL SHOULD HAVE BEEN SIGMUND FREUD.
Why Freud over Jung? Because Freud is the first man who decided that the human mind was a field of study. He created a whole new science. Others have contributed to the science since, and some, like Jung (arguably) may have provided as much or more knowledge that is relevant to us today. But Freud is the one who started it all.
Why Freud over everyone else on the list? Because first, his particular field of study has greater reaching implications upon the future of human civilization, and second, because he is more important to his field of study than any of the others are to theirs. Now I realize that both statements on my part are going to raise quite a bit of argument and Yankee does not agree. I happen to agree with you, Yankee, that Adam Smith is the most important economic thinker who ever lived, with the possible exception of Karl Marx, who is not in this category. But I cannot place Adam Smith above Sigmund Freud, who I regard as the #1 intellectual of all time. I won't do it.
So obviously we disagree, and rather than belabor our disagreement, Yankee, I offer you the following compromise: move Freud up in the rankings as far as you are comfortable with. Where ever you move him to, I'll slot Adam Smith in the same spot, and they'll be tied at that ranking. If you leave things the way they are, then I will put Smith at #11, tied with Freud.
I do think Smith deserves top 2 or 3 ranking, but not above Freud. If you want to move Freud up to #1, then I'll have Smith tied with him for #1, and you'll get your 20 points. It's up to you.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
mmm...science sex...mmmexcellent work, sir. you've overweighted economics & underweighted antiquity, but i have no substantial quarrel with your rankings. since im prolly the person on these boards who agrees with you least, that should likely then suffice as praise. and no one with any sense at all would weigh Freud ahead of Jung intellectually or as a scientist. the elder of the two being the one to break the seal on popular psychology actually set our psychic evolution back as much as Paul of Tarses did Christ's ethic. and, though i expected thoughtful evaluations, i was surprised by how well-rounded they were. well done -
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I
ianfitzy
Guest
You're a little out in left field on this one.
timschochet
Footballguy
Could be. That's my perogative. We're at the end of the draft. This is the last decision to make, and Yankee needs to make it.
FUBAR
Footballguy
YOU ARE F'IN KIDDING ME. That is the absolute worst thing I've read on this board in a long time. Do you not see the inherent conflict in your statement? If you disagree with how a judge ranks someone you do not take things into your own hands to force him to change the rankins, especially by BRIBING him to do your bidding.
FUBAR
Footballguy
No, it absolutely is not.
Abrantes
Footballguy
This seems a little petty. Your purpose shouldn't be to change the judge's mind or his rankings. Just put him where you think he should go if you didn't have to account for Freud.
Abrantes
Footballguy
I agree wholeheartedly. Although these rankings don't really matter as much as the popular vote, let's not make a mockery out of their legitimacy.
timschochet
Footballguy
It's not a bribe at all. Yankee is correct that Adam Smith deserves a high ranking- 1,2, or 3. If I didn't agree with that, I would never have made him this offer. But I also think that Freud deserves the #1 ranking. So this is an attempt at a compromise.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
In defense of Smith, he is clearly more influential than Freud. I am not going to do a long defense of it because it is just a fact. I am not sure where Smith should rank but he is in the top. It easy to make a case for anyone in the top 5 to be #1.
FUBAR
Footballguy
My complaint isn't with the rankings, even if Freud goes to #1 based on a legitimate argument, but Tim's post here is... I'll just assume it's a joke for now.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Not even in the same ball park. Yankee ruled the way he did because he is the judge (and Shiny) and you are going to "overrule" him because you deem it so? That is not very judgely of you.
timschochet
Footballguy
All right. Never let it be said that I go against the will of the majority here. Fubar and Abrantes both think I am way out of line, that I should simply rank Smith without worrying about Freud. If one more drafter shares that opinion, I will back down. Does anyone else agree with Fubar and Abrantes?
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
that is sooooooooooooooooo tim!! puts the limp in lame and the c in corrupt....
FUBAR
Footballguy
If by compromise you mean "something given or serving to persuade or induce" or "Something, such as money or a favor, offered or given to a person in a position of trust to influence that person's views or conduct". then sure.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
I am not sure of your background in psychology and I make no claims to be anywhere near an expert but I do believe that most of Freud's theories have been proven wrong.He is also did not create a new field of science. Others studied psychology before him. What he did too was found a new school of psychology.
timschochet
Footballguy
OK, guys. Mario is the third to object. I disagree with all of you; I think what I offered was totally fair, and much more fair than Yankee attempting to place Adam Smith at #1, but I will concede to your wishes. Give me one moment to figure out where Adam Smith should be.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Quoted from Wiki:
Many people came before Freud.
FUBAR
Footballguy
I took his placement as a joke, as I would have jokingly done the same with Sulieman if I had remained the leaders judge - fully expecting you to judge differently.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
I took it as Yankee's case for Adam Smith as #1 and his belief that he should be ranked #1 and then left it up to timschochet to move him down if he pleases.
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