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WR Will Fuller, MIA (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter bostonfred
- Start date
Borden
Footballguy
If Fuller is the top receiver taken I will lose all faith in that team and especially their scouting department.
Jeremiah constantly says that one these kinds of things he's just going off of what he hears from people within teams. Zielein however, has lost almost all credibility to me. Not that he cares but I do. Fuller doesn't look good catching, he doesn't use hand fighting well and he loses contested catches way too much. I can go into more exact detail on these flaws but I think my point is clear. I think he's an average college receiver that can run really fast. This is what makes him an NFL draftee but not the best receiver in the class. I'm sorry if this seems like I'm just cutting him down but this Fuller hype is ridiculous.
Jeremiah constantly says that one these kinds of things he's just going off of what he hears from people within teams. Zielein however, has lost almost all credibility to me. Not that he cares but I do. Fuller doesn't look good catching, he doesn't use hand fighting well and he loses contested catches way too much. I can go into more exact detail on these flaws but I think my point is clear. I think he's an average college receiver that can run really fast. This is what makes him an NFL draftee but not the best receiver in the class. I'm sorry if this seems like I'm just cutting him down but this Fuller hype is ridiculous.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
But what is he was an average college receiver that can run really, really fast. What would you think then?
Kidding aside, I'd like to hear how you explain his elite college production with less than ideal quarterback situations. (without going into a Waldman-type analysis) Production is really what separates him from other prospects in the "super fast deep threat with questionable hands" bucket that you guys seemed to dump him in
Borden
Footballguy
In order Doctson, Treadwell, Coleman. Boring I know. Coleman I've slowly grown to like enough that he's locked into that spot. I was a bit down on him off the hop.
Borden
Footballguy
His QBs weren't as bad as they get made out to be. It's not like they had some nose tackle in there throwing passes that look like muffed punts. He didn't have Luck throwing him the ball, of course.
The scheme allowed him to get open vs zone coverage at times and his speed allowed him to run past the weaker DBs. There is a bunch of times when he's running a 9 and he doesn't even get separation. There's lots of times he does though, to be fair.
I'm not saying he is a bad receiver/prospect it's just that he has way too many holes in his game too be the best receiver in the class.
Faust
MVP
Pro Football Focus likens Notre Dame WR Will Fuller to Mike Wallace.
"Fuller’s speed shows up on the field and compares favorably to Mike Wallace’s, as both players are more than capable of scaring defensive coordinators with their ability to get behind the defense," the site noted. Fuller, who a 4.32 40-yard dash at the NFL Combine, ranked third in the country with 708 yards on deep passes last year. PFF believes Wallace's career has fallen off in part because of a lack of downfield ball skills in contested situations, a trait Fuller shares. "Both Fuller and Wallace have the speed to get behind the defense, they can create separation on the vertical route tree, and they are boom-or-bust players who need the right quarterback and system to fully maximize their skill sets," PFF concluded.
Source: Pro Football Focus
Apr 14 - 1:03 PM
Let's do a quick analysis on the players Fuller has been compared to. First, Fuller's career stats over three seasons:
144 receptions, 2512 yards (17.4 yds/catch), 30 TDs
Career college stats for (all over three seasons):
Darrius Heyward-Bey: 138 receptions, 2089 yards (15.1), 13 TDs
Ted Ginn Jr.: 135 receptions, 1943 yards (14.4), 15 TDs
Stephen Hill: 49 receptions, 1248 yards (25.5), 9 TDs
Corey Coleman: 173 receptions, 3009 yards, 33 TDs
Fuller had as many/more TDs in ONE SEASON than Heyward-Bey or Hill had in their entire careers. He damn near put up Coleman numbers in an offense that is nowhere near as prolific as Baylor.
Again, it needs to be emphasized: This was not a mediocre college WR who caught everyone's attention with a good 40 time. This was a guy who week-in and week-out was unquestionably one of the most feared wide-outs in the country. Yes, he drops some passes. But he still scored thirty touchdowns. THIRTY.
Here's his playmaker score compared to Doctson and Treadwell:
Will Fuller, Notre Dame
Playmaker Projection: 514 Yards
Playmaker Rating: 94.5%
Will Fuller may have made headlines for his blazing 4.32-second 40-yard dash, but Playmaker Score is more interested in his strong receiving numbers in the relatively low-volume Notre Dame passing offense. Fuller scored 29 receiving touchdowns in his last two seasons at Notre Dame and recorded an impressive 17.4 yards per catch. Scouts may be concerned that Fuller has a relatively slight build, but size is highly overrated at the wide receiver position. Great wide receivers have come in all shapes and sizes; what matters is production.
Josh Doctson, TCU
Playmaker Projection: 409 Yards
Playmaker Rating: 70.8%
Doctson's numbers are similar to Will Fuller's. However, there is one important difference between the two prospects: Fuller posted his numbers as a junior and enters the draft as an underclassman, while Doctson enters the draft as a senior. Senior wide receivers fail at a much greater rate than their junior counterparts. The four least productive wide receivers drafted in the first round from 1996-2013 were all seniors (A.J. Jenkins, Rashaun Woods, R. Jay Soward, and Marcus Nash), even though most of the first-round picks over this time period were underclassmen.
Laquon Treadwell, Ole Miss
Playmaker Projection: 479 Yards
Playmaker Rating: 69.5%
Laquon Treadwell is the consensus No. 1 wide receiver in this draft amongst draftniks. Playmaker Score, however, disagrees. Even factoring his status as sure first-round pick, Playmaker Score ranks him as only the fifth best receiver available. So why is Treadwell's Playmaker so low?
First, Treadwell's rate statistics are not particularly impressive. Treadwell's best season was his junior year, when he recorded 1,153 yards and 11 touchdowns. Those are certainly fine numbers for a college wide receiver, but fall short of the numbers most highly drafted NFL wide receivers produce. For example, Amari Cooper produced 1,727 yards and 16 touchdowns in his final season, even though his team passed less than Treadwell's team did. As another example, Nelson Agholor, who was considered only a fringe first-round prospect, put up 1,313 yards and 12 touchdowns in his final season on a team that also passed less than Treadwell's.
Treadwell's career yards per reception is also a below-average 11.8 yards per catch, although that number did improve as his college career progressed. Possession receivers in college rarely pan out in the NFL, and Treadwell did not have the rushing attempts that would mark him as the kind of "jack of all trades" wide receiver that sometimes succeeds in the NFL despite low yards per reception numbers.
Playmaker Score likes that Treadwell is coming out as a junior, but he is poised to have one of the worst projections ever for a first-round underclassman. Assuming that Treadwell is drafted in the first round, the list of first-round underclassmen wide receivers with the worst projections would be Jon Baldwin, Cordarrelle Patterson, Treadwell, Anthony Gonzalez, and Yatil Green.
144 receptions, 2512 yards (17.4 yds/catch), 30 TDs
Career college stats for (all over three seasons):
Darrius Heyward-Bey: 138 receptions, 2089 yards (15.1), 13 TDs
Ted Ginn Jr.: 135 receptions, 1943 yards (14.4), 15 TDs
Stephen Hill: 49 receptions, 1248 yards (25.5), 9 TDs
Corey Coleman: 173 receptions, 3009 yards, 33 TDs
Fuller had as many/more TDs in ONE SEASON than Heyward-Bey or Hill had in their entire careers. He damn near put up Coleman numbers in an offense that is nowhere near as prolific as Baylor.
Again, it needs to be emphasized: This was not a mediocre college WR who caught everyone's attention with a good 40 time. This was a guy who week-in and week-out was unquestionably one of the most feared wide-outs in the country. Yes, he drops some passes. But he still scored thirty touchdowns. THIRTY.
Here's his playmaker score compared to Doctson and Treadwell:
Will Fuller, Notre Dame
Playmaker Projection: 514 Yards
Playmaker Rating: 94.5%
Will Fuller may have made headlines for his blazing 4.32-second 40-yard dash, but Playmaker Score is more interested in his strong receiving numbers in the relatively low-volume Notre Dame passing offense. Fuller scored 29 receiving touchdowns in his last two seasons at Notre Dame and recorded an impressive 17.4 yards per catch. Scouts may be concerned that Fuller has a relatively slight build, but size is highly overrated at the wide receiver position. Great wide receivers have come in all shapes and sizes; what matters is production.
Josh Doctson, TCU
Playmaker Projection: 409 Yards
Playmaker Rating: 70.8%
Doctson's numbers are similar to Will Fuller's. However, there is one important difference between the two prospects: Fuller posted his numbers as a junior and enters the draft as an underclassman, while Doctson enters the draft as a senior. Senior wide receivers fail at a much greater rate than their junior counterparts. The four least productive wide receivers drafted in the first round from 1996-2013 were all seniors (A.J. Jenkins, Rashaun Woods, R. Jay Soward, and Marcus Nash), even though most of the first-round picks over this time period were underclassmen.
Laquon Treadwell, Ole Miss
Playmaker Projection: 479 Yards
Playmaker Rating: 69.5%
Laquon Treadwell is the consensus No. 1 wide receiver in this draft amongst draftniks. Playmaker Score, however, disagrees. Even factoring his status as sure first-round pick, Playmaker Score ranks him as only the fifth best receiver available. So why is Treadwell's Playmaker so low?
First, Treadwell's rate statistics are not particularly impressive. Treadwell's best season was his junior year, when he recorded 1,153 yards and 11 touchdowns. Those are certainly fine numbers for a college wide receiver, but fall short of the numbers most highly drafted NFL wide receivers produce. For example, Amari Cooper produced 1,727 yards and 16 touchdowns in his final season, even though his team passed less than Treadwell's team did. As another example, Nelson Agholor, who was considered only a fringe first-round prospect, put up 1,313 yards and 12 touchdowns in his final season on a team that also passed less than Treadwell's.
Treadwell's career yards per reception is also a below-average 11.8 yards per catch, although that number did improve as his college career progressed. Possession receivers in college rarely pan out in the NFL, and Treadwell did not have the rushing attempts that would mark him as the kind of "jack of all trades" wide receiver that sometimes succeeds in the NFL despite low yards per reception numbers.
Playmaker Score likes that Treadwell is coming out as a junior, but he is poised to have one of the worst projections ever for a first-round underclassman. Assuming that Treadwell is drafted in the first round, the list of first-round underclassmen wide receivers with the worst projections would be Jon Baldwin, Cordarrelle Patterson, Treadwell, Anthony Gonzalez, and Yatil Green.
I feel the "drops" with Fuller are extremely over emphasized. He had a really good catch rate at ND. Also, a drop on a 40 yard pass is not the same in my eyes as a drop on a 10 yard route. Fuller's a big time playmaker with crack speed. I also feel the fit in Houston is perfect. Good luck covering him and Hopkins. That poor Indy secondary.
Pwingles
Footballguy
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Pwingles
Footballguy
i understood that
I would agree, if the 'drop' stat didnt imply it could be caught
i get that a full speed 25+ yard route is maybe not as easy as an intermediate route where he squats in a soft spot for an easy catch, but if his hype and alleged skill set is burning downfield and making big plays, it should definitely be taken into account, since that is what he will be asked to do
Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
I love Fuller. I think he will be an outstanding pro. From what I've read he's been working very hard to correct how he catches the Ball and yielding good results. Catching the Ball properly can be taught, his speed cannot.
No disrespect to the wannabe scouts on this board but I think Fuller is in the mix for top WR. I won't get into specifics but I recently passed on the fantasy census and drafted Fuller much earlier than his ADP. This is of course after I failed to trade back.
Time will tell. Maybe my gamble pays off, maybe not. I'll be more upset if I am wrong because I let fantasy football guys sway my opinion than going with who I liked. By no means am I smarter than anyone here, just have to go with your guys sometimes.
No disrespect to the wannabe scouts on this board but I think Fuller is in the mix for top WR. I won't get into specifics but I recently passed on the fantasy census and drafted Fuller much earlier than his ADP. This is of course after I failed to trade back.
Time will tell. Maybe my gamble pays off, maybe not. I'll be more upset if I am wrong because I let fantasy football guys sway my opinion than going with who I liked. By no means am I smarter than anyone here, just have to go with your guys sometimes.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
There's a difference between sleeping on a player and putting one to bed.
Like someone above said, we have seen this movie a thousand time and when you're essentially a one trick pony and that trick is speed its a two-edged sword. You can't teach speed so you have something that can keep you around for a long time (and tease ff guys with inconsistent play) but at the same time, speed is one of the things you lose first as to where a big guy or super handed WR can carry for several years.
If fuller is a "unique" speed guy, I guess he can lose a step and still be faster than most but for the most part, guys like this come in the league all the time and put me in the mind of Ted Ginn: Stretches of great play and stretches of forgetfulness. It has its ups and downs but I hate putting guys like that on a dynasty roster and having to hold them through the good and bad and try to figure out which is which.
Who's Fuller's comp that has similar speed AND production AND an extremely high character/work ethic? Since we've seen this move a thousand times I'm sure you won't have trouble coming up with a long list
*edit* there's one great comp that I haven't heard Fuller compared to yet, likely because it doesn't fit the narrative of Fuller being exclusively a deep threat with drops
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Shutout
Footballguy
THe list was posted on page one. I'm not invested enough in this guy one way or the other to put any more into it than a casual conversation. Unlike a lot of people, I don't tend to over analyze rookie hype to the nth degree or try to build up or tear down players once I have them drafted or don't.Who's Fuller's comp that has similar speed AND production AND an extremely high character/work ethic? Since we've seen this move a thousand times I'm sure you won't have trouble coming up with a long list
I'm just making a comment as I stroll by: In general, for every small blazing fast guy with "average" hands guy that comes into the league that make it, there are 50 we forget about.
But just for grins and giggles, I'll give you a couple that came to mind that I haven't seen in the lists above:
Chris Givens and Joe Adams. Does that list excite you as much as it does me? Are those the type of guys you want hanging around on your dynasty roster for 3-4 years? Better question, do you know any leagues that still have these guys rostered? Do you even remember Joe Adams?
Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
No idea what your talking about but it appears you need to grow some shoulders and quit taking everything personal.
Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
And there are several players every year that break a mold. Guys come out of nowhere and produce highly. No two players are the same. Trying to lump guys is just silly. Each is their own individual so spare the Ted Ginn comparison because last time I check Fuller is not Ginn.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Nothing taken personally, just pointing out the hypocrisy of your post. Not sure how one can not know the pot and kettle reference though so maybe it shouldn't surprise me.
I agree with this 100%, his stats aren't that much different from colemans, I believe he is actually a little bigger then Coleman yet people write him off. Yes his big plays came from deep balls and that's what the average person sees but he is a good route runner, I would put him in the top 5 of this class (higher then Coleman).smoke monster said:
I do understand people saying Coleman has a higher ceiling because Coleman is a little more athletic so that makes sense, but to say one is in the discussion for top WR in the class and the other one nobody wants to even consider taking is crazy. All I have are later picks in rookie drafts so I will be happy to land him in a couple of leagues
That list is terrible and basically nobody on it fits the criteria what I suggested. Which "1st round pedigree" should be added to btw.
What does everyone think about TY Hilton as a comp? Fuller has a narrower body type but they do seem to be similar athletically, although I'd give the edge to Fuller in that category
Fuller is 6'0" and 186 pounds. Doctson is 6'2", 202. Possibly the same BMI, but very different bodies.smoke monster said:
And you're also not understanding the difference between "explosiveness" and "speed". They are not synonyms. But you are correct that they seem to have similar skillsets. The biggest knock against Fuller is that he doesn't know how to catch with his hands (today).
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Fuller doesn't have Andrew Luck.
Hilton has exceeded my expectations of him for the most part. The QB matters a lot.
Pwingles
Footballguy
agreed. I am low on fuller, but everything has an appropriate price for its risk.
I would gamble on him at the later half of round 1, and anywhere later than that. I do not believe however that he should be being taken before Shepard or Thomas
Dan Hindery
Moderator
Yeah, seems like people are taking the hate way too far. I get not taking him ahead of the other 1st round receivers. They all have realistic shots of being the top guys on their team. I can see taking some of the 2nd round receivers over him, especially Shepard (Thomas v. Fuller is a coin flip for me). But I've seen Fuller fall to mid-late 2nd round, which seems crazy. He's going to end up on a lot of my teams this year.
Pwingles
Footballguy
i would think a guy like him would carry a bit more value in non ppr vs ppr, thats odd. sorta makes sense if like 6 wr, and every rb went before him tho
Why does an article post that Fuller ran 4.28 when he ran 4.32 at the combine and he didn't run at his pro-day? So annoying that they can't google something so simple before publishing it. This is where the whole everyone runs a 4.4 comes from.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
So again, he ran a 4.32 and that was almost 4 months ago. Still amazes me that even sports writers propagate incorrect info.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Some people (including NFL teams though they use their own) prefer the handheld times. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that the "official" combine times are a lot of the time a total cluster####.
Evan Silva
✔@evansilva
At #Texans camp, Will Fuller "has put moves on CBs that have left them as if stuck in cement while he separates":http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/11295/will-fuller …
4:45 PM - 9 Aug 2016
Per the godfather of Texans reporters John McClain, Fuller "continues to impress with his route running and hands." 2015 third-rounder Jaelen Strong spent the offseason sucking up all the hype in the Texans' receiver corps, but it's not surprising first-rounder Fuller is the one kicking into another gear in camp. McClain reports Fuller has "put some moves on cornerbacks that have left them as if stuck in cement while he separates and makes the catch." Fuller is going to have trouble generating fantasy value in a run-first offense, but offers a little upside as a late-round flier. Aug 9 - 4:52 PM
✔@evansilva
At #Texans camp, Will Fuller "has put moves on CBs that have left them as if stuck in cement while he separates":http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/11295/will-fuller …
4:45 PM - 9 Aug 2016
Per the godfather of Texans reporters John McClain, Fuller "continues to impress with his route running and hands." 2015 third-rounder Jaelen Strong spent the offseason sucking up all the hype in the Texans' receiver corps, but it's not surprising first-rounder Fuller is the one kicking into another gear in camp. McClain reports Fuller has "put some moves on cornerbacks that have left them as if stuck in cement while he separates and makes the catch." Fuller is going to have trouble generating fantasy value in a run-first offense, but offers a little upside as a late-round flier. Aug 9 - 4:52 PM
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Nice.
Papa John's
Footballguy
I have numerous shares in dynasty. Love the talent and fact that he runs across from Hopkins.
I am, however, very concerned that his QB has no ability to throw the deep ball. I really hope this doesn't turn into a 3 year wait for him to see his actual potential.
I am, however, very concerned that his QB has no ability to throw the deep ball. I really hope this doesn't turn into a 3 year wait for him to see his actual potential.
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