Yet another Pitt Bull attack (1 Viewer)

[Otis]

Guess I don't feel they are unpredictable, which I'm sure every owner has said.

There you have it.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I guess I would ask the following of pit bull owners.  Knowing that pit bulls frighten your neighbors, knowing that their fright has anecdotal backing and basis, why are you insistent on owning that particular breed when there are so many options?  What drives you to set yourself against others in this way?  Why not restrain yourselves?  It seems a small sacrifice.  That's right, I recognize that you would be sacrificing some freedom of choice, but why so unwilling, apparently to do so?  What is the philosophy?  Oh, and are you consistent in that way of thinking in your other interactions, and in the interactions you hope for from others? 

I am curious as to your thinking as to your own families as well, particularly if you have children.  I suspect you believe, sincerely, that your child is gaining something from the experience of the companionship of a remarkable dog, but there are many breeds offering much or all of the same experience, and most objectively pose less risk than an animal so athletic and well equipped to cause damage or death quite so readily.  I remember when my child was born.  I vowed to the heavens that there was no sacrifice I would not make for her safety and happiness.  That has animated my decisions since.  It has caused me to sublimate my desires at times, to make sacrifices, but to do so willingly, even lovingly.  If you can share your thinking perhaps I can come to understand it.

 

[Chaka]

I have no problem with people being anti-pit bull, in fact I get it (I really do), I just wish they would take most of that zealousness and apply it to things that actually cause significant harm to society.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I have no problem with people being anti-pit bull, in fact I get it (I really do), I just wish they would take most of that zealousness and apply it to things that actually cause significant harm to society.

I agree. I think we should focus more on the idiots that own them. Good chance they are causing all sorts of other issues too. Their dogs are the least of our concerns. 

 

[Chaka]

I agree. I think we should focus more on the idiots that own them. Good chance they are causing all sorts of other issues too. Their dogs are the least of our concerns. 

Meh.  Weak effort, weaker execution.

The pit bull/pit bull owner impact on society is far closer to the bottom of the list of legitimate concerns facing society that the top.  Hell it's far closer to the bottom of the list than it is to the middle even.  It's horrific when it happens and I agree that owners should be punished and the dogs put down in that scenario but this is not a legitimate concern for society.

 

[The Captain]

Pro tip: our kids won't try to kill you and your stupid animals. 

Jeffrey Dahmers parents thought the same thing. 

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Jeffrey Dahmers parents thought the same thing. 

 awesome 

 

[ILUVBEER99]

I guess I would ask the following of pit bull owners.  Knowing that pit bulls frighten your neighbors, knowing that their fright has anecdotal backing and basis, why are you insistent on owning that particular breed when there are so many options?  What drives you to set yourself against others in this way?  Why not restrain yourselves?  It seems a small sacrifice.  That's right, I recognize that you would be sacrificing some freedom of choice, but why so unwilling, apparently to do so?  What is the philosophy?  Oh, and are you consistent in that way of thinking in your other interactions, and in the interactions you hope for from others? 

I am curious as to your thinking as to your own families as well, particularly if you have children.  I suspect you believe, sincerely, that your child is gaining something from the experience of the companionship of a remarkable dog, but there are many breeds offering much or all of the same experience, and most objectively pose less risk than an animal so athletic and well equipped to cause damage or death quite so readily.  I remember when my child was born.  I vowed to the heavens that there was no sacrifice I would not make for her safety and happiness.  That has animated my decisions since.  It has caused me to sublimate my desires at times, to make sacrifices, but to do so willingly, even lovingly.  If you can share your thinking perhaps I can come to understand it.

That's a great question and one that i still haven't heard any of the pit bull owners answer.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I guess I would ask the following of pit bull owners.  Knowing that pit bulls frighten your neighbors, knowing that their fright has anecdotal backing and basis, why are you insistent on owning that particular breed when there are so many options?  What drives you to set yourself against others in this way?  Why not restrain yourselves?  It seems a small sacrifice.  That's right, I recognize that you would be sacrificing some freedom of choice, but why so unwilling, apparently to do so?  What is the philosophy?  Oh, and are you consistent in that way of thinking in your other interactions, and in the interactions you hope for from others? 

I am curious as to your thinking as to your own families as well, particularly if you have children.  I suspect you believe, sincerely, that your child is gaining something from the experience of the companionship of a remarkable dog, but there are many breeds offering much or all of the same experience, and most objectively pose less risk than an animal so athletic and well equipped to cause damage or death quite so readily.  I remember when my child was born.  I vowed to the heavens that there was no sacrifice I would not make for her safety and happiness.  That has animated my decisions since.  It has caused me to sublimate my desires at times, to make sacrifices, but to do so willingly, even lovingly.  If you can share your thinking perhaps I can come to understand it.

Bump for DW

 

[IC FBGCav]

If Pit Bulls have been bred for generations not to bite people, why is it that we seem to hear so many gruesome accounts of Pit Bull attacks? One reason is that stories about aggressive Pit Bulls are more sensational than stories about equally aggressive dogs from a breed with a more benign reputation. The media is far more likely to report on a problem Pit Bull than a problem Golden Retriever. Also, greater public awareness of Pit Bulls has increased the likelihood that any muscular, short-coated dog with a large head will be identified as a Pit Bull, particularly if it has been involved in an attack.

But claims of media bias cannot be used to explain away the times when Pit Bulls have truly bitten, sometimes with tragic consequences. The fact that dogs described as Pit Bulls are responsible for more than their fair share of human bites (particularly those that result in the worst injuries) can’t be ignored.1,2,3 What has gone wrong in these instances?

In some cases, breeders need to take responsibility for producing vicious dogs. Conscientious breeders carefully select only the best individuals for use in their programs and routinely produce wonderful animals. But, if someone instead seeks out Pit Bulls that act aggressively towards people and mates them to each other or to any other aggressive dog, years of proper breeding can be undone in just a generation or two.

Many times, owners are to blame. Pit Bulls are extremely trainable and want nothing more than to please their owners. Unfortunately, if an immoral person wants their Pit Bull to be aggressive towards people and he or she rewards this behavior, the dog is likely to act in the way that his owner has intended. Also, dogs that have been neglected, abused or poorly socialized are more likely to be aggressive. If a Pit Bull has had only unpleasant dealings with people or has no experience with strangers, it should not come as too great of a surprise when he lashes out.

Studies published in 2009 and 2012 confirm that owners of dog breeds known for being “vicious” (including Pit Bulls) have higher incidences of criminal thinking and behavior, primary psychopathy, and antisocial tendencies in comparison to other dog owners.4,5 It seems obvious that certain breeds of dogs attract certain types of people, and if those owners act in aggressive ways it shouldn’t be too surprising that they train their dogs to behave in a similar manner.

Finally, sometimes the process of reproduction, development, and aging goes astray. In a particular dog, genes may combine in just the wrong way producing an individual that is very different from what is normal. Although the majority of Pit Bulls are born gentle and trustworthy, a specific individual may not be. Diseases or injuries that cause pain or adversely affect brain function may also be responsible for turning a good dog, regardless of its breed, into a potential threat.

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2013/june/truth-about-pit-bulls-part-three-30423

Bump

 

[AAABatteries]

I guess I would ask the following of pit bull owners.  Knowing that pit bulls frighten your neighbors, knowing that their fright has anecdotal backing and basis, why are you insistent on owning that particular breed when there are so many options?  What drives you to set yourself against others in this way?  Why not restrain yourselves?  It seems a small sacrifice.  That's right, I recognize that you would be sacrificing some freedom of choice, but why so unwilling, apparently to do so?  What is the philosophy?  Oh, and are you consistent in that way of thinking in your other interactions, and in the interactions you hope for from others?

Many of them are too invested in the "there's nothing wrong with them" line of thinking.  They'll come up with any number of excuses for why they own them.  At the end of the day, they're selfish.

 

[steelerfan1]

There you have it.

Yes, because we can't play this game with anything else in life...pretty sure if you ask most people if they are not going to die in a wreck on their way to work, or not have a home invasion, etc we know what their answer would be. There will be some who are wrong. I'm willing to bet that those 2 examples have a higher probability of happening to you than my dog harming you.

 

[steelerfan1]

I guess I would ask the following of pit bull owners.  Knowing that pit bulls frighten your neighbors, knowing that their fright has anecdotal backing and basis, why are you insistent on owning that particular breed when there are so many options?  What drives you to set yourself against others in this way?  Why not restrain yourselves?  It seems a small sacrifice.  That's right, I recognize that you would be sacrificing some freedom of choice, but why so unwilling, apparently to do so?  What is the philosophy?  Oh, and are you consistent in that way of thinking in your other interactions, and in the interactions you hope for from others? 

I am curious as to your thinking as to your own families as well, particularly if you have children.  I suspect you believe, sincerely, that your child is gaining something from the experience of the companionship of a remarkable dog, but there are many breeds offering much or all of the same experience, and most objectively pose less risk than an animal so athletic and well equipped to cause damage or death quite so readily.  I remember when my child was born.  I vowed to the heavens that there was no sacrifice I would not make for her safety and happiness.  That has animated my decisions since.  It has caused me to sublimate my desires at times, to make sacrifices, but to do so willingly, even lovingly.  If you can share your thinking perhaps I can come to understand it.

Hi DW,

I,ll try to answer this as truthfully as possible. In my almost 25 years of owning these dogs I'd say I've had 1 neighbor not like my dog. Then again she was an elderly woman who really wasn't the happiest person on earth, so she may not have liked any dog at all. I'd say mkost of my past neighbor's were indifferent to my dog. They would stop and Pat it if they were out when I was walking it but not super glad or scared to see it.

Our current neighbors love our dogs. Come over to let them out if we need them too and enjoy seeing them. Maybe I have been lucky with my neighbors and their response to my dogs but this has really been a none issue for me for the 25 years I've had the breed.

As for the next part of your question. I bought my first dog when I was younger and living alone. After that dog passed on I ended up getting an offspring of him because I really wanted to keep part of him around which I know sounds stupid, but that was my boy and I missed him. Having had him and never seeing anything negative about him I really didn't hesitate or have reservations from getting another dog or pup from the breeder. Since then I've married, had given my mom my first dogs sibling who she kept until she passed at 12 years of age. I by then had a grandson from my first dog as well as a playmate for him. They are now almost 15 and 11. They share the home with 3 cocker spaniels,my wife and I. 

we don't have children, so i cant answer that part of your question. 

i probably didn't answer your post well as I really have not had the issues that you mentioned, but you had a very good post and i atleast wanted to address it.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Yes, because we can't play this game with anything else in life...pretty sure if you ask most people if they are not going to die in a wreck on their way to work, or not have a home invasion, etc there answer would be no. There will be some who are wrong. I'm willing to bet that those 2 examples have a higher probability of happening to you than my dog harming you.

These are stupid comparisons. You have to go to work to be a productive member of our society and support your family. You have to pick your kids up from school or daycare. You have to go to the doctor. You have to have a roof over your head. 

You don't have to own any dog and you certainly don't have to own a pit bull. You are making a choice that you think you have control over. You think you have it all handled. While you probably have a great deal of control if you know what you are doing, you never truly can control it. Animals react in different ways when new situations occur. Things out of your control. I was thrown from a horse when a fawn jumped out of the brush and startled my horse. Was a very gentle and calm horse. He went nuts. Possibly had never encountered a deer before or at least a baby. It was new smells, sights, and of course it was right in front of us jumping around. No amount of training could have ever prepared him for that. 

You can argue that horseback riding is more dangerous than a pit bull. I might even agree with you. I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives, but that isn't even really relevant. The difference is with horseback riding the alternatives to it for a similar experience are more dangerous, not less dangerous. Donkey riding? Muleback? Elephant tours?

Owning a pit bull is more dangerous than owning a golden or a coonhound. There are so many breeds of dog out there with so many loving and amazing traits that choosing a dog that provides no extra benefit and much more extra danger is just a bad choice in life. That is the part I can never get past. You are making a decision that is statistically worse just because you want to be the dude that owns a pit bull. 

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Bump for DW

im gonna say one reason people buy pets because of the way they look ...Pits are powerful looking dogs ...they are a strong breed ...its not unlike why we may buy a car or truck...based on our personalities in most cases...then you always have the practical crowd who buy based on  whats best for there personal situation

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

kHi DW,

I,ll try to answer this as truthfully as possible. In my almost 25 years of owning these dogs I'd say I've had 1 neighbor not like my dog. Then again she was an elderly woman who really wasn't the happiest person on earth, so she may not have liked any dog at all. I'd say mkost of my past neighbor's were indifferent to my dog. They would stop and Pat it if they were out when I was walking it but not super glad or scared to see it.

Our current neighbors love our dogs. Come over to let them out if we need them too and enjoy seeing them. Maybe I have been lucky with my neighbors and their response to my dogs but this has really been a none issue for me for the 25 years I've had the breed.

As for the next part of your question. I bought my first dog when I was younger and living alone. After that dog passed on I ended up getting an offspring of him because I really wanted to keep part of him around which I know sounds stupid, but that was my boy and I missed him. Having had him and never seeing anything negative about him I really didn't hesitate or have reservations from getting another dog or pup from the breeder. Since then I've married, had given my mom my first dogs sibling who she kept until she passed at 12 years of age. I by then had a grandson from my first dog as well as a playmate for him. They are now almost 15 and 11. They share the home with 3 cocker spaniels,my wife and I. 

we don't have children, so i cant answer that part of your question. 

i probably didn't answer your post well as I really have not had the issues that you mentioned, but you had a very good post and i atleast wanted to address it.

I appreciate you sharing your experience, thank you.  I understand completely about wanting the offspring of a well loved pet, particularly one's first pet which always seems to burrow a little deeper into our hearts than any other.

I'm glad you have had good experiences with your dogs, and with your neighbors.

My early experience with dogs was with spaniels, golden retrievers, black labs, and shepherds, mostly, though I knew many dogs fairly well, pets of friends and extended family.  My family got a springer spaniel/water spaniel mix on my first birthday.  She lived to be 23, extraordinary.  We went everywhere together for the first years of my life.  Also the best hunting dog I have ever had, or seen.  My family also fostered shepherds for the Deaf/Blind  School's Guide dog program.  Those dogs needed socialization with families, pets, animals, vehicles and what not.  They would spend time with us at and between various times in their training.  We kept two of the wash outs that did not successfully complete their training.  Wonderful animals.  I should note that I grew up with brothers in a rural area with lakes, stream, fields, woods, and farms, just outside of the far reaches of suburbia.

As an adult and a father when my little girl wanted a dog I naturally considered the breeds with which I was familiar.  I wanted to recapture the feelings and experiences which to me were so positive.  In the end, though, I judged that the dog should be one for my girl to experience.  Her experience did not have to match mine, though I suspected any breed she picked would do so.  I believe the person/pet relationship is special nearly regardless of the pet.  We ended up getting a dog (barely qualified in my mind) appropriate for a little girl in suburbia.  I tried to consider her, and to a lesser extent my neighbors, and as to shepherds in particular I know they can make some apprehensive so they came off the list of considered breeds early. (When I retire and move back to a rural area I will get a dog or dogs for me, not my family so much.  Very likely I will go wit a shepherd, a spaniel, and maybe a newfie.)

In closing, I would say from the tenor of your posting I would have little concern if you were my neighbor.  You seem a measured and responsible fellow.  I suspect you would be a great neighbor and would keep your dogs well behaved and well controlled.  Still, I might tend to keep an eye on them as I know their capabilities.  That eye would be slightly more concerned than if say you had a toy schnauzer due to the difference in the capabilities of the animals.  I should also say that if I ever did perceive any danger from your pets I believe that I would act in a manner that would be subject to criticism by many, potentially even the law.  When it comes to the safety of my wife and child I am not necessarily reasonable.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I hope others will make an effort as well.  Discussion beats argumentation.  I am glad you agreed to discuss the matter.

 

[steelerfan1]

These are stupid comparisons. You have to go to work to be a productive member of our society and support your family. You have to pick your kids up from school or daycare. You have to go to the doctor. You have to have a roof over your head. 

You don't have to own any dog and you certainly don't have to own a pit bull. You are making a choice that you think you have control over. You think you have it all handled. While you probably have a great deal of control if you know what you are doing, you never truly can control it. Animals react in different ways when new situations occur. Things out of your control. I was thrown from a horse when a fawn jumped out of the brush and startled my horse. Was a very gentle and calm horse. He went nuts. Possibly had never encountered a deer before or at least a baby. It was new smells, sights, and of course it was right in front of us jumping around. No amount of training could have ever prepared him for that. 

You can argue that horseback riding is more dangerous than a pit bull. I might even agree with you. I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives, but that isn't even really relevant. The difference is with horseback riding the alternatives to it for a similar experience are more dangerous, not less dangerous. Donkey riding? Muleback? Elephant tours?

Owning a pit bull is more dangerous than owning a golden or a coonhound. There are so many breeds of dog out there with so many loving and amazing traits that choosing a dog that provides no extra benefit and much more extra danger is just a bad choice in life. That is the part I can never get past. You are making a decision that is statistically worse just because you want to be the dude that owns a pit bull. 

hi para,

yes, you are correct. They are not identical. I was attempting at making the point, that almost no one expects anything bad to ever happen to them. Unfortunately, some are wrong.

again, correct, I don't have to own a dog or a pit bull, and you make a very good point about telling how your horse reacted when put in a different environment and displayed things totally not in its character. if I'm being honest i haven't really put 100% focus on this type of situation.

what we have done however is socialize our dogs at a young age and throughout their lives with numerous adults, children, puppies, dogs ranging from  5 pounds papillions(sp), springer spaniels, up to a 110 pound german-shepherd/malinois cross, as well as a couple of cats.

we have approximately a 100 feet x 200 feet 6 foot high privacy fenced in back yard with a 3 latched gate which the dogs are only out in when we are home.

when the dogs do go for their walk they are on a secured leash as well. the dogs are never allowed to run free.

now, I guess there would be the chance that a tree could fall on a section of fence or the 3 latches could come free allowing the dogs out. I guess they could burst through our front door and take off when we opened it to go out as well. I'm not sure the % of that happening. then we would need to factor in an event that would cause them to panic like your horse did. I don't know if a group of kids with fireworks or something loud like that would trigger them, as I've never saw them in that situation. 

now we did have an incident once where our brother in law was building our back deck and my wife came home and my BIL was on the front porch having a beer and my male dog was sitting in the yard with him. My BIL didn't think anything was wrong with it and assumed that he went outside, since he'd saw my dogs around his 2 young daughters and our family, he didn't think anything of it. My wife tore him a new 1 and it is now understood by him the dogs don't go out front. I guess that's an instance where something bad could have happened. 

and here is where we have our difference of opinion and I realize I won't change your mind, but will  throw it out there anyway. I agree owning a poorly bred, mistreated, un-socialized pit bull is FAR more dangerous than owning another breed of dog.  a well bred socialized pit bull raised in a good environment with responsible owners is not a liability to me. again, I go back to your horse story and admit, there is that small % of unknown, but I can only go on my almost 25 years of hands on experience with this breed. if you also go back before the real boom of the mid 80's when the unfavorable people started getting a hold of these dogs, the stats back that up as well.

this may be a twisted view to some, but imagine if all these traits that people are afraid of could be used for good and not evil. I live in the boonies. granted, not as far in the boonies as I'd personally like, but pretty far out and still acceptable to the wife. I work some strange hours including some nights. the police are not going to be arriving in a timely manner, just lets say. I know this sounds crazy, but I feel SAFE knowing while I am away some nights that my wife has our dogs in the house with her. she is always picking on my male never getting the memo that he was a pit bull. one night while i was at work she called and said I owe your boy an apology. apparently it was windy and she had some pumpkins stacked on the porch for Halloween. the wind knocked the pumpkins into the front door making a loud crashing sound. I'm guessing by the fact that my dog sensed my wife needed to change her underwear and he was on that door defending the home. granted I'm guessing most dogs would have done the same, but would they have been able to defend as good as my dog would have?

as far as being the guy who wants to look cool by owning a pit bull goes....I am an old bald guy who drives around in a 12 year old Honda element pushing 180,000 miles. being considered cool and having some type of status is not high on my priority list. I did not set out looking to buy this breed at first. i had a k-9 officer friend who used to do schutzhund competitions and me being young and single and wanting a dog thought that would be a good hobby to pursue. it ended up that the breeder had a pit bull on the property that was his personal pet and not his other dogs and i became interested in them then. after my first 1 passed on i was interested in keeping his offspring and now am in the 3rd generation of his. i didn't set out to be cool by any standards.

now, my old man, 3rd generation is 14+ years old and i will probably have to end his life before he reaches 15 as he is in kidney failure and has a large mass in his lung. i know a lot of people here will celebrate that day. when he is gone will i 100% get another pitbull? no. we will probably adopt as there are tons of dogs that need homes. but having nothing but positive experiences i would not rule out a pit bull either. 

going back to your horse riding story. having that you know what is possible, do you allow your children to horseback ride?

I appreciate you sharing your experience, thank you.  I understand completely about wanting the offspring of a well loved pet, particularly one's first pet which always seems to burrow a little deeper into our hearts than any other.

I'm glad you have had good experiences with your dogs, and with your neighbors.

My early experience with dogs was with spaniels, golden retrievers, black labs, and shepherds, mostly, though I new many dogs fairly well, pets of friends and extended family.  My family got a springer spaniel/water spaniel mix on my first birthday.  She lived to be 23, extraordinary.  We went everywhere together for the first years of my life.  Also the best hunting dog I have ever had, or seen.  My family also fostered shepherds for the Deaf/Blind  School's Guide dog program.  Those dogs needed socialization with families, pets, animals, vehicles and what not.  They would spend time with us at and between various times in their training.  We kept two of the wash outs that did not successfully complete their training.  Wonderful animals.  I should note that I grew up with brothers in a rural area with lakes, stream, fields, woods, and farms, just outside of the far reaches of suburbia.

As an adult and a father when my little girl wanted a dog I naturally considered the breeds with which I was familiar.  I wanted to recapture the feelings and experiences which to me were so positive.  In the end, though, I judged that the dog should be one for my girl to experience.  Her experience did not have to match mine, though I suspected any breed she picked would do so.  I believe the person/pet relationship is special nearly regardless of the pet.  We ended up getting a dog (barely qualified in my mind) appropriate for a little girl in suburbia.  I tried to consider her, and to a lesser extent my neighbors, and as to shepherds in particular I know they can make some apprehensive so they came off the list of considered breeds early. (When I retire and move back to a rural area I will get a dog or dogs for me, not my family so much.  Very likely I will go wit a shepherd, a spaniel, and maybe a newfie.)

In closing, I would say from the tenor of your posting I would have little concern if you were my neighbor.  You seem a measured and responsible fellow.  I suspect you would be a great neighbor and would keep your dogs well behaved and well controlled.  Still, I might tend to keep an eye on them as I know their capabilities.  That eye would be slightly more concerned than if say you had a toy schnauzer due to the difference in the capabilities of the animals.  I should also say that if I ever did perceive any danger from your pets I believe that I would act in a manner that would be subject to criticism by many, potentially even the law.  When it comes to the safety of my wife and child I am not necessarily reasonable.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I hope others will make an effort as well.  Discussion beats argumentation.  I am glad you agreed to discuss the matter.

hi DW, a dog living to 23 in incredible. from reading some of your humor, even though directed at me and reading the last couple of posts, it sounds like we'd have a lot in common and we may even be great neighbors together. i respect the fact that your family is top priority. who knows, if you were my neighbor, maybe i would even be able to get you to get within 10 feet of touching 1 of my menaces to society and find out you may not want to plant them all.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

thanks for the well thought out post steelerfan.

My son has never gone horseback riding. Not because of me though. It has just never come up. He has never shown any interest in it and the place I used to go is closed now. If he wanted to, I am sure I would allow it. 

I kind of figured you might go here, which is why I stressed that there wasn't a safer alternative to horseback riding. If it was proven that llamas were far safer than horses, that's the way I would go.

I just think people choose pit bulls because they are pit bulls. There are smarter, safer, more loyal breeds. I am not saying they are big dumb beasts, dont read into that. I just think there are other breeds that historically test better in most categories compared to a pit. So really the debate isn't how safe is a pit? It is how safe is a pit compared to so many alternatives available. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

hi para,

yes, you are correct. They are not identical. I was attempting at making the point, that almost no one expects anything bad to ever happen to them. Unfortunately, some are wrong.

again, correct, I don't have to own a dog or a pit bull, and you make a very good point about telling how your horse reacted when put in a different environment and displayed things totally not in its character. if I'm being honest i haven't really put 100% focus on this type of situation.

what we have done however is socialize our dogs at a young age and throughout their lives with numerous adults, children, puppies, dogs ranging from  5 pounds papillions(sp), springer spaniels, up to a 110 pound german-shepherd/malinois cross, as well as a couple of cats.

we have approximately a 100 feet x 200 feet 6 foot high privacy fenced in back yard with a 3 latched gate which the dogs are only out in when we are home.

when the dogs do go for their walk they are on a secured leash as well. the dogs are never allowed to run free.

now, I guess there would be the chance that a tree could fall on a section of fence or the 3 latches could come free allowing the dogs out. I guess they could burst through our front door and take off when we opened it to go out as well. I'm not sure the % of that happening. then we would need to factor in an event that would cause them to panic like your horse did. I don't know if a group of kids with fireworks or something loud like that would trigger them, as I've never saw them in that situation. 

now we did have an incident once where our brother in law was building our back deck and my wife came home and my BIL was on the front porch having a beer and my male dog was sitting in the yard with him. My BIL didn't think anything was wrong with it and assumed that he went outside, since he'd saw my dogs around his 2 young daughters and our family, he didn't think anything of it. My wife tore him a new 1 and it is now understood by him the dogs don't go out front. I guess that's an instance where something bad could have happened. 

and here is where we have our difference of opinion and I realize I won't change your mind, but will  throw it out there anyway. I agree owning a poorly bred, mistreated, un-socialized pit bull is FAR more dangerous than owning another breed of dog.  a well bred socialized pit bull raised in a good environment with responsible owners is not a liability to me. again, I go back to your horse story and admit, there is that small % of unknown, but I can only go on my almost 25 years of hands on experience with this breed. if you also go back before the real boom of the mid 80's when the unfavorable people started getting a hold of these dogs, the stats back that up as well.

this may be a twisted view to some, but imagine if all these traits that people are afraid of could be used for good and not evil. I live in the boonies. granted, not as far in the boonies as I'd personally like, but pretty far out and still acceptable to the wife. I work some strange hours including some nights. the police are not going to be arriving in a timely manner, just lets say. I know this sounds crazy, but I feel SAFE knowing while I am away some nights that my wife has our dogs in the house with her. she is always picking on my male never getting the memo that he was a pit bull. one night while i was at work she called and said I owe your boy an apology. apparently it was windy and she had some pumpkins stacked on the porch for Halloween. the wind knocked the pumpkins into the front door making a loud crashing sound. I'm guessing by the fact that my dog sensed my wife needed to change her underwear and he was on that door defending the home. granted I'm guessing most dogs would have done the same, but would they have been able to defend as good as my dog would have?

as far as being the guy who wants to look cool by owning a pit bull goes....I am an old bald guy who drives around in a 12 year old Honda element pushing 180,000 miles. being considered cool and having some type of status is not high on my priority list. I did not set out looking to buy this breed at first. i had a k-9 officer friend who used to do schutzhund competitions and me being young and single and wanting a dog thought that would be a good hobby to pursue. it ended up that the breeder had a pit bull on the property that was his personal pet and not his other dogs and i became interested in them then. after my first 1 passed on i was interested in keeping his offspring and now am in the 3rd generation of his. i didn't set out to be cool by any standards.

now, my old man, 3rd generation is 14+ years old and i will probably have to end his life before he reaches 15 as he is in kidney failure and has a large mass in his lung. i know a lot of people here will celebrate that day. when he is gone will i 100% get another pitbull? no. we will probably adopt as there are tons of dogs that need homes. but having nothing but positive experiences i would not rule out a pit bull either. 

going back to your horse riding story. having that you know what is possible, do you allow your children to horseback ride?

hi DW, a dog living to 23 in incredible. from reading some of your humor, even though directed at me and reading the last couple of posts, it sounds like we'd have a lot in common and we may even be great neighbors together. i respect the fact that your family is top priority. who knows, if you were my neighbor, maybe i would even be able to get you to get within 10 feet of touching 1 of my menaces to society and find out you may not want to plant them all.  

I have known several pit bulls, pets of friends.  I interact with them without apprehension.  Probably good since apprehension is the first step in an interaction that can lead to aggression.

Me, I am large and particularly good with dogs.  I suspect your "menaces" would sense my nature, slobber all over me, and then con me into a good belly rub or playing.

I would still keep on eye on them since that is my job as a husband and a father. 

BTW, if I directed anything too biting or inappropriate your way I sincerely apologize.  I think of you as one of the many good guys around here.

 

[eoMMan]

Just like many other powerful breeds such as Rottweilers, Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, etc. etc., pit bulls make great protection/guard dogs. This is one big reason many people own them.

If your question or argument is simply "why do you HAVE to own a pit bull?", then many other breeds should be included in there as well. 

 

[Warsteinner]

Just like many other powerful breeds such as Rottweilers, Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, etc. etc., pit bulls make great protection/guard dogs. This is one big reason many people own them.

If your question or argument is simply "why do you HAVE to own a pit bull?", then many other breeds should be included in there as well. 

http://www.pmarinc.org/about-pitbulls/

Pits actually don't make good guard dogs. 

 

[AAABatteries]

This thread was the equivalent of the RNC debates and now Steeler and DW have turned it in to the DNC version with debating issues.  Can we please go back to measuring penis sizes?  Much more entertaining.  TIA.

 

[IC FBGCav]

This thread was the equivalent of the RNC debates and now Steeler and DW have turned it in to the DNC version with debating issues.  Can we please go back to measuring penis sizes?  Much more entertaining.  TIA.

Otis to the white courtesy phone, Otis please pick up the white courtesy phone.

 

[Buttonhook]

These are stupid comparisons. You have to go to work to be a productive member of our society and support your family. You have to pick your kids up from school or daycare. You have to go to the doctor. You have to have a roof over your head. 

You don't have to own any dog and you certainly don't have to own a pit bull. You are making a choice that you think you have control over. You think you have it all handled. While you probably have a great deal of control if you know what you are doing, you never truly can control it. Animals react in different ways when new situations occur. Things out of your control. I was thrown from a horse when a fawn jumped out of the brush and startled my horse. Was a very gentle and calm horse. He went nuts. Possibly had never encountered a deer before or at least a baby. It was new smells, sights, and of course it was right in front of us jumping around. No amount of training could have ever prepared him for that. 

You can argue that horseback riding is more dangerous than a pit bull. I might even agree with you. I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives, but that isn't even really relevant. The difference is with horseback riding the alternatives to it for a similar experience are more dangerous, not less dangerous. Donkey riding? Muleback? Elephant tours?

Owning a pit bull is more dangerous than owning a golden or a coonhound. There are so many breeds of dog out there with so many loving and amazing traits that choosing a dog that provides no extra benefit and much more extra danger is just a bad choice in life. That is the part I can never get past. You are making a decision that is statistically worse just because you want to be the dude that owns a pit bull. 

Where do you draw the line?  If for some reason we had no pitbulls, would you then tell the owners of Rottys and German Shepards what horrible people they are?

If you insist that people only do the safest thing possible, I'm assuming jumping out of planes and rock-climbing is out-of-the-question?  No more fast cars, and god-forbid anyone hop on a motorcycle?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

This thread was the equivalent of the RNC debates and now Steeler and DW have turned it in to the DNC version with debating issues.  Can we please go back to measuring penis sizes?  Much more entertaining.  TIA.

Came in here expecting to see Otis trotting out his tired old shtick and was quite surprised (other than Card Trader of course).

 

[parasaurolophus]

Where do you draw the line?  If for some reason we had no pitbulls, would you then tell the owners of Rottys and German Shepards what horrible people they are?

If you insist that people only do the safest thing possible, I'm assuming jumping out of planes and rock-climbing is out-of-the-question?  No more fast cars, and god-forbid anyone hop on a motorcycle?

Cars and motorcycles don't have their own minds. Rock Climbing and jumping out of planes is already illegal in many circumstances. But I guess if we look at those a bit closer... 

If we look at rock climbing, though as an example, there is a comparison to be drawn. Why free climb when you can top rope? 

On a motorcycle there is riding with a helmet and without. So it isn't about doing the safest thing possible, it is about the safest thing for a given avenue. Now combine that with the fact that we are talking about a beast with its own mind that was bred to grab onto a bull's snout and hang on for dear life and it becomes a pretty easy call. If you buy a pit bull, you have made a bad decision. Not as bad as tons of other decisions, but still a bad decision given all the other options out there.  

 

[Pwingles]

That's a great question and one that i still haven't heard any of the pit bull owners answer.

my answer would be, its none of your business why i like what i like because this is America

 

[Warrior]

my answer would be, its none of your business why i like what i like because this is America

It's none of his business until your dog chews his face off, amiright?

 

[Chaka]

It's none of his business until your dog chews his face off, amiright?

30,000 people in America die from guns/bullets every year but there is still a very vocal part of the population who say it's no one's business including the victims or their families.

Please carry on about the horrible societal doggy menace that kills maybe 20 people every year.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

This thread was the equivalent of the RNC debates and now Steeler and DW have turned it in to the DNC version with debating issues.  Can we please go back to measuring penis sizes?  Much more entertaining.  TIA.

Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[Pwingles]

It's none of his business until your dog chews his face off, amiright?

Who would you cry to if it was a standard poodle? or a Dalmation? or a Great Dane? All are big enough and or aggressive enough to hurt a reasonably sized person....

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Where do you draw the line?  If for some reason we had no pitbulls, would you then tell the owners of Rottys and German Shepards what horrible people they are?

If you insist that people only do the safest thing possible, I'm assuming jumping out of planes and rock-climbing is out-of-the-question?  No more fast cars, and god-forbid anyone hop on a motorcycle?

If you want to jump out of a plane, that is fine with me so long as you don't do it over my house. If you want a rocket bike that's fine too, so long as you don't ride it beyond the speed limit on the streets of my neighborhood.  When you need my active vigilance and forbearance to accommodate your lifestyle we are moving into an area where you have solicited my involvement and judgment.

 

[Otis]

These are stupid comparisons. You have to go to work to be a productive member of our society and support your family. You have to pick your kids up from school or daycare. You have to go to the doctor. You have to have a roof over your head. 

You don't have to own any dog and you certainly don't have to own a pit bull. You are making a choice that you think you have control over. You think you have it all handled. While you probably have a great deal of control if you know what you are doing, you never truly can control it. Animals react in different ways when new situations occur. Things out of your control. I was thrown from a horse when a fawn jumped out of the brush and startled my horse. Was a very gentle and calm horse. He went nuts. Possibly had never encountered a deer before or at least a baby. It was new smells, sights, and of course it was right in front of us jumping around. No amount of training could have ever prepared him for that. 

You can argue that horseback riding is more dangerous than a pit bull. I might even agree with you. I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives, but that isn't even really relevant. The difference is with horseback riding the alternatives to it for a similar experience are more dangerous, not less dangerous. Donkey riding? Muleback? Elephant tours?

Owning a pit bull is more dangerous than owning a golden or a coonhound. There are so many breeds of dog out there with so many loving and amazing traits that choosing a dog that provides no extra benefit and much more extra danger is just a bad choice in life. That is the part I can never get past. You are making a decision that is statistically worse just because you want to be the dude that owns a pit bull. 

I'll go a step further. Your horseback riding is only likely to hurt you. If pit bulls only turned on and killed their owners, I would happily support the marriage between pit bulls and the owners who choose them.  Unfortunately it's not the person who chose to own them that they so often choose to harm or kill. 

TLDR: Your horse isn't going to eat my children. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

When Horses Attack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXeM1VC5bFo

 

[eoMMan]

Do you guys get this outraged over child molesters in your neighborhood? 

What about habitual DUI offenders? 

So many bigger things to get worked up about than 1/millionth chance a dog...pit bull or not....eats your kid.

 

[Chaka]

Do you guys get this outraged over child molesters in your neighborhood? 

What about habitual DUI offenders? 

So many bigger things to get worked up about than 1/millionth chance a dog...pit bull or not....eats your kid.

6.27155848e-8

 

[Otis]

Do you guys get this outraged over child molesters in your neighborhood? 

What about habitual DUI offenders? 

So many bigger things to get worked up about than 1/millionth chance a dog...pit bull or not....eats your kid.

I don't choose for child molestors or drunk drivers to do their evil deeds in my neighborhood. We can't control that. 

But some dude out there, maybe one who lives around the block from me, wakes up one morning and thinks to himself "hmm, little Johnny wants first pet dog, and I've got JUST the breed!" and then makes the conscious decision to put that lethal animal in his home. That's one that someone is actually making an affirmative decision about, and although he's putting all the rest of us in danger as well, it funny but these usually really considerate people with the really sweet dogs never thought to ask for our views.  Weird right?

 

[steelerfan1]

thanks for the well thought out post steelerfan.

My son has never gone horseback riding. Not because of me though. It has just never come up. He has never shown any interest in it and the place I used to go is closed now. If he wanted to, I am sure I would allow it. 

I kind of figured you might go here, which is why I stressed that there wasn't a safer alternative to horseback riding. If it was proven that llamas were far safer than horses, that's the way I would go.

I just think people choose pit bulls because they are pit bulls. There are smarter, safer, more loyal breeds. I am not saying they are big dumb beasts, dont read into that. I just think there are other breeds that historically test better in most categories compared to a pit. So really the debate isn't how safe is a pit? It is how safe is a pit compared to so many alternatives available. 

thanks to you as well para.

regarding your son, yes i saw you stressed there was no safer alternative available so to compare it wasn't eligible. the only true approach are to weigh the options and calculate the risks and make your judgment call as you stated. the only effective way would be no horse riding to be sure your son was 100% safe. 

there are some, maybe even in this small community who would fault you for letting your son take that risk to be on an animal that is so big and powerful. i would try to politely tell those people to mind their own business. it is your family, you have the experience with the field, have assessed the situation and determined the % is small enough that it is worth the risk of letting your son on said animal.   

i agree with you 100% on a lot of people choose pit bulls because they are pit bulls. i wish the late 80's, 90's  never happened for this breed. if you look at the gross overbreeding and bad breeding practices, as well as the mistreatment, to me it's really amazing the still small % of issues. there are tens of tens of thousands of these dogs. i think its a rule that every walmart have people peddling them outside for $50.

my wife will agree with you all day there are smarter breeds. my male has gotten the dreaded ear pull by her at least 100x for being a special creature. as far as loyal goes...i think it's hard to put a % on it. i think all breeds of dogs are capable of giving their all to their owners. I'd rank mine up there pretty high. and as far as people stating the unpredicted ability, I'd throw out that my female has let me pull a foot long piece of splintered board from our deck out of her, as well as treat her for a tore off toenail. this was all done without even a whimper. again, this could be determined as a negative as the animal can take a great deal of pain, but you also need to see the positive.

this is obviously considered by many here a poor choice, but i believe the % of the pit bull i got from a family of dogs i had first hand experience with and raised from a puppy is just as safe to be around as the alternative.

again, when my dogs pass on, would i just pull into the walmart and buy a pit bull because it has a big head and is a pretty blue. absolutely not. and being honest, I'm on the fence about rescuing 1. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a great dog, but i am kind of OCD and want to raise something from the start.

am i right owning a pit bull? most will say anything from no to an irresponsible jack wagon. to me I've done my homework, assessed the % and feel comfortable. i contain my dogs and have done everything i think that shows i am responsible. i know this wont do anything to convince you, but i do appreciate you being respectful even if we do disagree.  

 

[Chaka]

I don't choose for child molestors or drunk drivers to do their evil deeds in my neighborhood. We can't control that. 

But some dude out there, maybe one who lives around the block from me, wakes up one morning and thinks to himself "hmm, little Johnny wants first pet dog, and I've got JUST the breed!" and then makes the conscious decision to put that lethal animal in his home. That's one that someone is actually making an affirmative decision about, and although he's putting all the rest of us in danger as well, it funny but these usually really considerate people with the really sweet dogs never thought to ask for our views.  Weird right?

You expect your neighbors to consult you about their purchasing decisions?

 

[Chaka]

Think about it before you start typing your moral high ground response.

 

[steelerfan1]

This thread was the equivalent of the RNC debates and now Steeler and DW have turned it in to the DNC version with debating issues.  Can we please go back to measuring penis sizes?  Much more entertaining.  TIA.

there's another battle i wouldn't fair well in....  

 

[steelerfan1]

I have know several pit bulls, pets of friends.  I interact with them without apprehension.  Probably good since apprehension is the first step in an interaction that can lead to aggression.

Me, I am large and particularly good with dogs.  I suspect your "menaces" would sense my nature, slobber all over me, and then con me into a good belly rub or playing.

I would still keep on eye on them since that is my job as a husband and a father. 

BTW, if I directed anything too biting or inappropriate your way I sincerely apologize.  I think of you as one of the many good guys around here.

and again i can respect that. i could see you knocking on my door and dealing direct as well with your concern rather than the anon call to animal control, etc.

nothing inappropriate at all. i enjoy the humor and i consider you the same

 

[Warsteinner]

I don't choose for child molestors or drunk drivers to do their evil deeds in my neighborhood. We can't control that. 

But some dude out there, maybe one who lives around the block from me, wakes up one morning and thinks to himself "hmm, little Johnny wants first pet dog, and I've got JUST the breed!" and then makes the conscious decision to put that lethal animal in his home. That's one that someone is actually making an affirmative decision about, and although he's putting all the rest of us in danger as well, it funny but these usually really considerate people with the really sweet dogs never thought to ask for our views.  Weird right?

You against Muslims moving next door?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

You against Muslims moving next door?

he better be ...they could be extremists...if some Muslims are than all of them might be ...so lets be safe and take them all out

 

[Chaka]

Easy guys, easy.

 

[comfortably numb]

I'm not gonna go Otis or cardshark but will just say I don't know how you guys with pits/rots can feel relaxed. Maybe I am just too paranoid but I have 2 dogs (vizslas) 40-50lbs and they take up a good amount of stress on my mind.

They are harmless and if an intruder came into my house they would probably bark as the retreat into the next room. 

I mean I'm not tossing turning every night and popping zoloft but things like I don't feel comfortable having small kids over as they may try to lick a kid and scratch a face. Or having my 80 year old mom over adds a new stress with the dogs. If they are running around playing and bump into her...there goes a hip.

I couldn't imagine having to worry about the thought if my dog snapped at someone the amount of damage that could occur.

Or let's say a 10 year threw his waffle ball in my yard and jumps over the fence to retrieve it. My dogs would just bark and howl like nut jobs and even if they did bite the kid any passers-by could see the dilemma and just start kicking the crap out my dog to help the kid out...if the kid jumped into my yard and there was a pit or rot the consequences could be devastating and any passers-by is gonna having to seriously proceed with extreme caution.

I don't know how you guys do it man. Maybe if I lived with em and knew them to a tee I suppose I'd feel comfortable on "some" level but I don't think I would ever be able to leave a neighbor's kid at my house without me watching my dog like a hawk....just in case.

 

[Buttonhook]

Cars and motorcycles don't have their own minds. Rock Climbing and jumping out of planes is already illegal in many circumstances. But I guess if we look at those a bit closer... 

If we look at rock climbing, though as an example, there is a comparison to be drawn. Why free climb when you can top rope? 

On a motorcycle there is riding with a helmet and without. So it isn't about doing the safest thing possible, it is about the safest thing for a given avenue. Now combine that with the fact that we are talking about a beast with its own mind that was bred to grab onto a bull's snout and hang on for dear life and it becomes a pretty easy call. If you buy a pit bull, you have made a bad decision. Not as bad as tons of other decisions, but still a bad decision given all the other options out there.  

I caused this to go off-track with the other crap - I'm really just interested in a response to my first comment.  You guys that are against Pit Bulls, do you also frown at people that own Rottys, or Mastifs, etc.?  How long is your list of forbidden dogs?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Easy guys, easy.

why ? its the same thing...lets wipe out an entire breed of dog because a small % of them have killed or maimed

well a small % of muslims have done the same ...so why take a chance ...kill`em all

sounds pretty dumb right?

 

[Otis]

You expect your neighbors to consult you about their purchasing decisions?

I can see you're missing the point. 

 

[Chaka]

why ? its the same thing...lets wipe out an entire breed of dog because a small % of them have killed or maimed

well a small % of muslims have done the same ...so why take a chance ...kill`em all

sounds pretty dumb right?

I'm going to open up with humans >>>>>>>>>>> dogs and see where that takes us.