Yet another Pitt Bull attack (2 Viewers)

[SayWhat?]

Stats show pits make up 6.5% of the canine population. Below are what these 6.5%’ers do.

“Overall,  pit bulls accounted for 68% of the human dog attack deaths in 2017,  88% of the human disfigurements,  92% of the dogs killed by other dogs,  94% of the dogs seriously injured by other dogs,  96% of the cats killed by dogs,  and 74% of the farmed animals killed by dogs.”

If these stats are true...

/thread

 

[ConnSKINS26]

no way i am getting sucked into this again, no offense. i would think there is truth to both sides (e.g. yes, lot's of d-bags and irresponsible people get pitbulls because they look cool or something), and in no way would i try to speak for an entire breed. only speaking from my tiny experience

So you'd like to speculate on fake statistics that sound good to you, but couldn't possibly bring yourself to engage and speak for Pit Bulls as a whole once actual statisitics that don't support your position are brought up. Interesting. 

 

[modogg]

So you'd like to speculate on fake statistics that sound good to you, but couldn't possibly bring yourself to engage and speak for Pit Bulls as a whole once actual statisitics that don't support your position are brought up. Interesting. 

 there are 80 pages here. maybe go back, and go figure, learn a few things

 

[tjnc09]

I don't know why, I could speculate that it has to do with a defect in character or intellect, but clearly, from your many posts, that is what you are trying to accomplish, to dissuade them from one point of view and towards your own,

Is this like SWC's schtick with commas instead?

 

[tjnc09]

Pit-bull owners treat the pits the worst of all.

They are the cause of almost 3000 pit-bulls being euthanized every single day - because they are horribly over-bred.  The #1 bred dog in America despite being the hardest to find homes for.

Selfish pricks. 

Breeders are the cause of that problem.  Is this now where I ask if you are a flat earther?

 

[tjnc09]

California just passed a law where pet stores can't sell animals from breeders.  It's a start,  but all breeding for a profit should be illegal.  I will never in my life buy an animal from a breeder.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

 there are 80 pages here. maybe go back, and go figure, learn a few things

You asked for relevant statistics on this very page, and were immediately given them. At which point you suddenly could only speak to your own experience, despite having just hypothesized why and how stats might be flawed. 

Let me try this. 

You've got a Toyota Camry. It's treated you great and you consider yourself a good driver. 

A report comes out that the Toyota Camry makes up 6.5% of all cars owned in the U.S., while making up somewhere between 70-90% of all crashes. 

What do you do with that information? 

 

[ILUVBEER99]

You asked for relevant statistics on this very page, and were immediately given them. At which point you suddenly could only speak to your own experience, despite having just hypothesized why and how stats might be flawed. 

Let me try this. 

You've got a Toyota Camry. It's treated you great and you consider yourself a good driver. 

A report comes out that the Toyota Camry makes up 6.5% of all cars owned in the U.S., while making up somewhere between 70-90% of all crashes. 

What do you do with that information? 

He’d buy a couple more to save the company.

 

[NotSmart]

Stats show pits make up 6.5% of the canine population. Below are what these 6.5%’ers do.

“Overall,  pit bulls accounted for 68% of the human dog attack deaths in 2017,  88% of the human disfigurements,  92% of the dogs killed by other dogs,  94% of the dogs seriously injured by other dogs,  96% of the cats killed by dogs,  and 74% of the farmed animals killed by dogs.”

It probably has been posted earlier in the thread, but out of curiosity I went looking for the source of these statistics - looks like a legit site from what I can see:

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2017.php

Lots of reading and thinking material:

https://www.dogsbite.org/

 

[NotSmart]

how about.... people on a fantasy football forum who think killing off a non-specific dog breed is a good idea and will solve various issues, is akin to feeling people with red hair are witches and satanists? 

this one actually seems kind of accurate to me

I'd like to understand where you're coming from, what are the basic statements about Pit Bulls that you believe?

 

[modogg]

It probably has been posted earlier in the thread, but out of curiosity I went looking for the source of these statistics - looks like a legit site from what I can see:

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2017.php

Lots of reading and thinking material:

https://www.dogsbite.org/

ugh, feels like groundhog day in here. We have been over this so many times..........  @ChainsawU any chance you can chime in here bud, i'm raising white flag

that site is worse than any propoganda you can imagine. lady behind it is a bit of nut

 

[modogg]

You asked for relevant statistics on this very page, and were immediately given them. At which point you suddenly could only speak to your own experience, despite having just hypothesized why and how stats might be flawed. 

Let me try this. 

You've got a Toyota Camry. It's treated you great and you consider yourself a good driver. 

A report comes out that the Toyota Camry makes up 6.5% of all cars owned in the U.S., while making up somewhere between 70-90% of all crashes. 

What do you do with that information? 

true answer? i would certainly be concerned. i would probably start by looking into it more with valid data and research. presumably, there would be a reason behind this and i would then examine what to do

 

[modogg]

I'd like to understand where you're coming from, what are the basic statements about Pit Bulls that you believe?

really don't have the energy to go back, but at some points in this thread there was good discussions about this. on those pages is good research in the topic. i am sure i cited a few, that is what i believe

 

[NotSmart]

ugh, feels like groundhog day in here. We have been over this so many times..........  @ChainsawU any chance you can chime in here bud, i'm raising white flag

that site is worse than any propoganda you can imagine. lady behind it is a bit of nut

I haven't read the entire thread, was there any legit refutation of her site earlier?

I'd be interested in reading any criticism of her site - the misc. things I read there seemed/felt legit, but that doesn't mean they are.

 

[NotSmart]

really don't have the energy to go back, but at some points in this thread there was good discussions about this. on those pages is good research in the topic. i am sure i cited a few, that is what i believe

I understand, I wish there was a way to just see one person's posts in a thread.

 

[modogg]

I haven't read the entire thread, was there any legit refutation of her site earlier?

I'd be interested in reading any criticism of her site - the misc. things I read there seemed/felt legit, but that doesn't mean they are.

no idea what these are, but my wife (who is the one who advocates for pit bulls, i just own one) suggests:

https://www.pitbullinfo.org

https://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/the-truth-behind-dogsbiteorg.html

https://ethicsalarms.com/2015/10/20/unethical-website-of-the-month-dogsbite.org

https://adbadog.com/truth-behind-dogsbite-org/

this should cover it. apparently 2nd link is a real good one. i'll take last one being an ABA guy myself. always like the science side over opinions

eta: links were broke. did a google search for dogsbite.org bias. so fixed some

 

[modogg]

I haven't read the entire thread, was there any legit refutation of her site earlier?

I'd be interested in reading any criticism of her site - the misc. things I read there seemed/felt legit, but that doesn't mean they are.

it's a lot to read, too long. basically the lady behind that site used to be a psychic. she ran behind a dog one day and got bit and made the site

 

[parasaurolophus]

no idea what these are, but my wife (who is the one who advocates for pit bulls, i just own one) suggests:

https://www.pitbullinfo.org

https://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/the-truth-behind-dogsbiteorg.html

https://ethicsalarms.com/2015/10/20/unethical-website-of-the-month-dogsbite.org

https://adbadog.com/truth-behind-dogsbite-org/

this should cover it. apparently 2nd link is a real good one. i'll take last one being an ABA guy myself. always like the science side over opinions

eta: links were broke. did a google search for dogsbite.org bias. so fixed some

Notice how none of those links contradict the actual fatality stats. Nope. They only go after the woman that started the site. 

The "science" they use to counter it always focuses on bsl. They ignore the data in every "takedown". They always talk about how pits are no more aggressive than other dogs and ignore what happens after attacks occur. 

 

[modogg]

Notice how none of those links contradict the actual fatality stats. Nope. They only go after the woman that started the site. 

The "science" they use to counter it always focuses on bsl. They ignore the data in every "takedown". They always talk about how pits are no more aggressive than other dogs and ignore what happens after attacks occur. 

ugh i so don't care.  after 89 pages it is more than obvious in this thread that people are going to think what they want to think, and few have changed their thoughts in this thread. All i would suggest is look at actual reputable sources, and read the actual CDC study or what the AVMA has to say. Not some former psychic who was dumb enough to run behind a dog while jogging and has spent the rest of her life devoted to this "cause"

 

[Ignoramus]

"Breeders are the problem..."

"Owners are the problem..."

"The Media is the problem..."

"The statistics are the problem..."

 

[BigSteelThrill]

You asked for relevant statistics on this very page, and were immediately given them. At which point you suddenly could only speak to your own experience, despite having just hypothesized why and how stats might be flawed.

####ing sad.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Breeders are the cause of that problem.  Is this now where I ask if you are a flat earther?

The amount of neutered male Pit Bulls I see is almost negligible.  Owners suck.

 

[Otis]

Pit-bull owners treat the pits the worst of all.

They are the cause of almost 3000 pit-bulls being euthanized every single day - because they are horribly over-bred.  The #1 bred dog in America despite being the hardest to find homes for.

Selfish pricks. 

I’m gonna go out on a limb and speculate that pit bull owners and breeders may not be the best decision makers. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Pit-bull owners treat the pits the worst of all.

They are the cause of almost 3000 pit-bulls being euthanized every single day - because they are horribly over-bred.  The #1 bred dog in America despite being the hardest to find homes for.

Selfish pricks. 

Wait, so over 1 million pit bulls are euthanized every year?  That seems like a hard stat to imagine being accurate.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Wait, so over 1 million pit bulls are euthanized every year?  That seems like a hard stat to imagine being accurate.

Its not. 500k is the number. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

ugh i so don't care.  after 89 pages it is more than obvious in this thread that people are going to think what they want to think, and few have changed their thoughts in this thread. All i would suggest is look at actual reputable sources, and read the actual CDC study or what the AVMA has to say. Not some former psychic who was dumb enough to run behind a dog while jogging and has spent the rest of her life devoted to this "cause"

Again more criticism of the person rather than the actual data. 

Which CDC study are you ok with us reading? The one that showed pit bulls were responsible for twice as many deaths as the next closest breed, or should we ignore that one or do we have to look at it from a certain way? 

 

[AAABatteries]

Its not. 500k is the number. 

That seems to be about 13% roughly of the total population - anybody know if that's in line with other breeds?

 

[ConnSKINS26]

"Dumb enough to run behind a dog while jogging"

Is this supposed to be some huge indictment of someone's decision making? Is running behind a dog supposed to be like running behind a jet engine or something? I live in a city, where the #### else are you supposed to run if not on the sidewalks where the dogs also are? 

Acting like it is normal, justified behavior for a dog to attack a human being for having the temerity to run behind it shows just how far down the rabbit hole you've gone. 

 

[ChainsawU]

It probably has been posted earlier in the thread, but out of curiosity I went looking for the source of these statistics - looks like a legit site from what I can see: https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2017.php Lots of reading and thinking material: https://www.dogsbite.org/

DogsBite.org was created by a Web designer named Colleen Lynn who was bitten on the arm twice “for approximately five seconds” by an unaltered male “pit bull mix” while jogging through a Seattle neighborhood in 2007. During the incident, Lynn’s arm was fractured, either by the dog or from her subsequent fall to the ground. Lynn sustained seven puncture wounds (equivalent to two total bites), but her broken arm required a stabilizer bar and screws to repair, making her injury serious enough to warrant a dangerous dog investigation. The dog that bit Lynn was subsequently euthanized, and Lynn received a sizable payout from the owners’ insurance company. She then dedicated herself to the promotion of breed-ban laws.

Lynn has no professional credentials in statistics, epidemiology, or animal behavior; neither do the sources she relies on most frequently. Before her bite injury, Lynn maintained the fortune-telling Web site DivineLady.com, on which she referred to herself as “Divine Lady, Beholder of the Soul.” In 2011, she self-published the third edition of Divine Lady’s Guide to the Runes. (The original Divine Lady Web site now redirects to RuneCast.com, owned and operated by Lynn Media Group.) Lynn did not respond to my requests for an interview.

Like many other journalists, I initially believed that DogsBite.org was well sourced and evidence based because of its very polished and professional layout. To her credit, Lynn is an excellent Web designer. When I read the fine print, however, I noticed a number of warning signs. For one, DogsBite.org contradicts everything put forth by the groups most qualified to speak about animal science, animal behavior, and dog bite epidemiology: the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, the Animal Behavior Society, the National Animal Care and Control Association, the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and almost every other animal welfare organization in the country other than PETA. According to DogsBite.org, these groups have been co-opted by the “pit bull lobby,” a shady cabal that supporters of the site imply is financed by dogfighters. The site is also littered with childish ad hominems like “pit nutter” (an epithet for pit bull owners) and “science whore,” a term used to describe the veterinarians and behaviorists who insist that there is no scientific basis for breed bans. Worse, commenters are allowed to express violent fantasies about killing dogs (“ Pit Bulls should be used for target practice,” one wrote in 2008). In its sidebar, DogsBite.org links to blogs filled with gratuitous photographs of pit bulls that have been shot or stabbed under headings such as “#### Pit Bulls and the ######s Who Own Pit Bulls.” While there is nothing at all wrong with dog bite victims providing support for one another, or with venting their outrage on the Internet in whatever manner they choose, what appears on this Web site should not be confused with credible scientific information.

Yet, in the quest for journalistic balance, many reporters have given DogsBite.org and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention equal airtime, framing the issue as though two scientifically rigorous institutions just happen to disagree. In most cases, reporters don’t even bother to consult the CDC (or the AVMA, or any other groups of professional scientists), preferring to pit DogsBite.org against animal rescuers or shelter workers, none of whom are qualified to speak on scientific matters of behavior, genetics, or public health.

Most of the information on DogsBite.org comes from one self-published paper on “dog attack deaths and maimings” by a man named Merritt Clifton, the former editor of the Animal People newsletter who runs an animal rights news blog called Animals 24-7 and claims to have been bitten by a pit bull in 1982. Because Clifton’s paper has been cited both in the mainstream press and in several court cases as evidence of the rational basis for breed-specific legislation, a thorough examination of it is necessary. Like Lynn, Clifton possesses no relevant credentials. His supporters call him an “award-winning journalist,” but he readily admits that his research methods are limited to scanning media reports and classified ads rather than personally speaking with investigators or reviewing primary source documents. The award he received in 2010 was presented to him by the administrators of an infectious-disease-tracking Listserv, not a journalistic organization.

Dickey, Bronwen. Pit Bull: The Battle over an American Icon (pages 186-187). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

California just passed a law where pet stores can't sell animals from breeders.  It's a start,  but all breeding for a profit should be illegal.  I will never in my life buy an animal from a breeder.

So, animals captured from the wild in the case of birds, fish and reptiles, animals from uncontrolled breeding in the case of cats and dogs, and presumably you will never be in the farming or ranching business.  A well thought out policy.

 

[Ignoramus]

"Dumb enough to run behind a dog while jogging"

Is this supposed to be some huge indictment of someone's decision making? Is running behind a dog supposed to be like running behind a jet engine or something? I live in a city, where the #### else are you supposed to run if not on the sidewalks where the dogs also are? 

Acting like it is normal, justified behavior for a dog to attack a human being for having the temerity to run behind it shows just how far down the rabbit hole you've gone. 

Good call. List updated.

"Breeders are the problem..."

"Owners are the problem..."

"The Media is the problem..."

"The statistics are the problem..."

"The victims are the problem..."

 

[ChainsawU]

Again more criticism of the person rather than the actual data. Which CDC study are you ok with us reading? The one that showed pit bulls were responsible for twice as many deaths as the next closest breed, or should we ignore that one or do we have to look at it from a certain way?

https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.243.12.1726

Dog Bite-Related Fatalities: Research Challenges Conventional Wisdom

Although very rare, fatal dog bites consistently capture media and public attention. Often the breed of the dog pre-dominates the conversation. As a result, much of public policy discussion related to the prevention of dog bites in general has focused on breed-specific legislation.

The Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA), however, recently published the most comprehensive study of dog bite-related fatalities (DBRFs) ever done which directly challenges the conventional wisdom to focus on breed. The results of the study come as welcome news to organizations including the AVMA, ASPCA, Humane Society of the United States, and the ARL who have opposed breed-specific legislation.

Dr. Amy Marder, director at the ARL’s Center for Shelter Dogs (CSD), and Dr. Gary Patronek, a consultant to CSD, joined co-authors Jeffrey Sacks, lead author on earlier studies of DBRFs, and Karen Delise and Donald Cleary, both of the National Canine Research Council, in an in-depth analysis of all DBRFs known to have occurred during a ten-year period between 2000–2009.

The authors employed investigative techniques different than those used in previous dog bite or DBRF studies.

Instead of relying primarily on information contained in news accounts, researchers compiled detailed case histories from homicide detectives, animal control agencies, and case investigators. Using these sources, researchers collected information over a longer period of time, revealing more facts pertaining to each case.

Analysis revealed four or more controllable factors were present in over 80% of fatal dog bites. Very importantly, breed was not one of those factors.

The authors found:

• In 87% of cases, no able-bodied person was present to intervene
  
• In 85% of cases, the victim had no familiar relationship with the dog
  
• In 84% of cases, the owner failed to spay/neuter the dog
  
• In 77% of cases, whether because of age or physical condition, a victim had compromised ability to manage their interactions with the dog
  
• In 76% of cases, the owner kept a dog as a resident dog on a property, rather than as a family pet
  
• In 38% of cases, the owner had previously mismanaged the dog
  
• In 21% of cases, the owner had abused or neglected the dog
  

In only 45 (18%) of DBRF cases could researchers make a valid determination that the animal was a member of a distinct, recognized breed. Twenty different breeds, along with two known mixes, were identified in connection with those 45 incidents.

So what can we learn from all of this? Based on the data, the most logical conclusion is repealing breed-specific legislation. Additionally, there need to be more efforts directed at improving our collective understanding of dog behavior, as well as how dogs are cared for and managed in our communities. This will have a much greater impact on bite prevention and control.

 

[ChainsawU]

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance - Most DBRFs were characterized by coincident, preventable factors; breed was not one of these. Study results supported previous recommendations for multifactorial approaches, instead of single-factor solutions such as breed-specific legislation, for dog bite prevention.

Gary J. Patronek, VMD, PhD; Jeffrey J. Sacks, MD, MPH; Karen M. Delise; Donald V. Cleary, BA; Amy R. Marder, VMD

 

[ChainsawU]

I'm all for a big, collective effort to teach humans to understand dog behavior. Anyone can watch Lady and the Tramp and then go out and buy a dog. It's dangerous. Too much Disney, not enough reality. The couple across the hall from me bought a little puppy from a puppy farm recently. You can tell they are already in way over their heads. I think it's their "trial run" before deciding whether or not to have kids. It seems like 4 out of every 10 families is trying to raise a dog in their condominium and it's really disgusting.

 

[ChainsawU]

ugh, feels like groundhog day in here. We have been over this so many times..........  @ChainsawU any chance you can chime in here bud, i'm raising white flag that site is worse than any propoganda you can imagine. lady behind it is a bit of nut

You sucked me back in!!!

 

[modogg]

You sucked me back in!!!

 sorry bud. I don’t know how I stumbled back in here either. I feel like I’m arguing with parents that they should get vaccines and that their kids won’t auto get autism because of a vaccine. Certainly is a tough exercise, so hard to have a dialogue when people ignore credentialed sources. 

 

[tjnc09]

I always make donations each year to various dog rescues and shelters.  I've decided that every time someone complains in her about pit bulls I'm going to make an additional donation in their name to a pit bull specific rescue.  They can rest assured at night knowing they are directly increasing the chance one finds a forever home

 

[Ted Stickles]

I always make donations each year to various dog rescues and shelters.  I've decided that every time someone complains in her about pit bulls I'm going to make an additional donation in their name to a pit bull specific rescue.  They can rest assured at night knowing they are directly increasing the chance one finds a forever home

Here's my pitbull complaint...

 Pitbulls 

Fire up that donation for me!

 

[DallasDMac]

 sorry bud. I don’t know how I stumbled back in here either. I feel like I’m arguing with parents that they should get vaccines and that their kids won’t auto get autism because of a vaccine. Certainly is a tough exercise, so hard to have a dialogue when people ignore credentialed sources. 

Both sides seem to believe whatever supports their argument and discard whatever doesn't. You are certainly no better about it than those that you are accusing.

 

[parasaurolophus]

In only 45 (18%) of DBRF cases could researchers make a valid determination that the animal was a member of a distinct, recognized breed. Twenty different breeds, along with two known mixes, were identified in connection with those 45 incidents.

In order to determine this they eliminated any of the attacks that had any differing reports and were trying to narrow it down to distinct recognized breeds. The results of the study were already known in advance regarding breed. "Pit bull" is not a recognized breed. I believe even the american pit bull terrier isn't recognized by the AKC. So of course most attacks will not meet this criteria. 

So when a death was reported by a pit bull mix, by far the most common report, they automatically removed it from consideration. 

 

[Otis]

I always make donations each year to various dog rescues and shelters.  I've decided that every time someone complains in her about pit bulls I'm going to make an additional donation in their name to a pit bull specific rescue.  They can rest assured at night knowing they are directly increasing the chance one finds a forever home

Still never got an explanation for why this particular breed. I get it, it’s difficult to defend. There’s no good answer. 

Good luck to your neighbors and family. 

 

[Chaka]

If children from abused homes are more likely to commit crimes, you have no problem with that?

Weren't you recently very critical of posters in here for making extreme comparisons?

 

[modogg]

Both sides seem to believe whatever supports their argument and discard whatever doesn't. You are certainly no better about it than those that you are accusing.

won't necessarily argue, but often one side presents research and the other presents News stories. it's the issue with half things these days, everyone is an expert in everything. from national debt, to climate control, to how to reduce dog bites. 

i have stated this at least 10 times, but i really don't give an F. i only really speak from my experience with my 1 pitbull. my wife cares way more then me and i'll pass some info along.

ETA: in other news my pitbull is old. she needs ear drops now cause her ear gets infeted. we go to put them in, and she runs and hides in the kitchen. 

 

[tjnc09]

Still never got an explanation for why this particular breed. I get it, it’s difficult to defend. There’s no good answer. 

Good luck to your neighbors and family. 

Thanks Otis.  I'm going to donate twice as much in your name.  You have now personally helped save the life of at least one pit bull.

 

[Otis]

Thanks Otis.  I'm going to donate twice as much in your name.  You have now personally helped save the life of at least one pit bull.

You could just say “Otis is right.”  Less words imo 

 

[eoMMan]

Lashing out at one of the most reasonable and respected members of this board is no way to get converts to your position.  It only serves to further impugn your emotional and intellectual stability.  Perhaps you can adopt another pit with a past you cannot fully know and so a future you cannot ever really predict and train it as an emotional support animal who can sense when you are becoming this kind of overwrought and that animal can intervene.

Stop. He's not lashing out. Let him speak his mind.

 

[eoMMan]

Still never got an explanation for why this particular breed. I get it, it’s difficult to defend. There’s no good answer. 

Good luck to your neighbors and family. 

More posts like this please and less schticky ridiculous ones. That's beyond tired.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Stop. He's not lashing out. Let him speak his mind.

I did not try to stop him from speaking.  he has spoken his mind, repeatedly, and will, undoubtedly, continue to do so.  What ia did was offer some free advice, advice you determined to be worth less than the charge for it. 

Oh, I stand by my post.

 

[eoMMan]

I did not try to stop him from speaking.  he has spoken his mind, repeatedly, and will, undoubtedly, continue to do so.  What ia did was offer some free advice, advice you determined to be worth less than the charge for it. 

Oh, I stand by my post.

You said he lashed out (he was not....he was simply defending his position) against one of the more respected posters in the FFA. I agree wholeheartedly that BB is a good dude and indeed one of the better posters in the FFA, but people should still be willing to disagree with him on things and not back down if they believe in their side....while posting respectfully, of course.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You said he lashed out (he was not....he was simply defending his position) against one of the more respected posters in the FFA. I agree wholeheartedly that BB is a good dude and indeed one of the better posters in the FFA, but people should still be willing to disagree with him on things and not back down if they believe in their side....while posting respectfully, of course.

And calling the man a liar, was that respectful?  

I am going to leave this discussion while I still think well of you.