Yet another Pitt Bull attack (1 Viewer)

[Cold Dead Hands]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

 

[eoMMan]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

No one is debating the power of pitbulls.

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

No one is debating the power of pitbulls.

In your opinion, or feel free to research it, are there any other breeds of dog that have the locking instinct? Are there any other breeds with the bite-force of a pit bull? Are there any other breeds that have the genetic tendency toward killing (hint, I gave you their ancestor already)? Are there any other breeds with a recent poor history of breeding? Are there any other breeds that are used and prized in dog fighting?

Do any of the breeds you thought of or researched meet all of those criteria, or even more than two?

I will go ahead and feed you the answer, no.

 

[Max Power]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

Pitbulls do not have any special "locking jaw".

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

Pitbulls do not have any special "locking jaw".

They have an instinct to bite and hold, often requiring police officers, first responders, or citizens to pry the jaw open using a tool such as a crowbar or some other sturdy implement. No one ever said they have a locking jaw.

 

[eoMMan]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

No one is debating the power of pitbulls.

In your opinion, or feel free to research it, are there any other breeds of dog that have the locking instinct? Are there any other breeds with the bite-force of a pit bull? Are there any other breeds that have the genetic tendency toward killing (hint, I gave you their ancestor already)? Are there any other breeds with a recent poor history of breeding? Are there any other breeds that are used and prized in dog fighting?Do any of the breeds you thought of or researched meet all of those criteria, or even more than two?

I will go ahead and feed you the answer, no.

What breed has suffered the most abuse over the past 20 years?

What breed will you most likely find in dog shelters all over America?

What breed has been popularized over the past 20 years as the dog of choice for someone wanting to look like a tough person? (DMX wouldn't have looked as tough with Yorkshire Terriers).

I will go ahead and feed you the answer, pitbulls.

 

[Max Power]

Let us try a new tack. Do you think the bite force to latch on and lock jaws to a bull or a bear is also the force that would be required to crush a child's throat or bite through soft tissue into blood vessels on a human being? Remember Bulls are 1000lb at the smallest, and quite powerful. Bears are roughly 500lbs plus for the smaller species. Now, take into account the bull or bear isn't standing still and is using all of their power to dislodge the dog.

Also of note, women and children are much smaller and less powerful.

Do you think this locking instinct is ok, and perfectly safe? You know, because the dog seems cool.

Pitbulls do not have any special "locking jaw".

They have an instinct to bite and hold, often requiring police officers, first responders, or citizens to pry the jaw open using a tool such as a crowbar or some other sturdy implement. No one ever said they have a locking jaw.

 

[eoMMan]

CDH, why can't we just hold the owners responsible instead of the eliminating the breed? Why are you opposed to this?

If the penalties are harsh enough for the owners and these dogs are as vicious as you say, then surely their ownership rates will drop naturally as owners will realize it's not worth the risk to own the breed.

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

You cant punish owners of historically dangerous breeds without punishing owners of breeds with no history of being dangerous. Should a person go to jail because their dog gets hit by a car and the person who stops to help gets bitten and seriously inured by an injured animal Perhaps the bite requires surgery or significant recovery. Sued? Perhaps. Jail? No. My question is, why are you loyal to a breed of dog when breeds of dog have faded out almost as fast as they were introduced in the last 400 years. Why hitch your wagon to this breed?

 

[cockroach]

Can't remember the last time I read a thread where people talked past each other more than this one.

Well, I don't think anyone is trying to convince each other... both sides participating seem to be dug in so far it doesn't matter.

As a bystander though, I've had my opinion swayed. I used to be a "don't blame the breed" type of person... but after reading in this thread the last couple weeks and following the links... I'm ready for the pitbull holocaust.

When PETA of all groups, comes out and says, yea, these dogs are fk'd up... you know you've got a problem.

I think the gun analogy is apt to a point, in that we're talking about potential killing machines... but it's too weak beyond that... these are living beings, with the capacity to learn and love... and tear your dearest loved ones to shreds.

 

[eoMMan]

You cant punish owners of historically dangerous breeds without punishing owners of breeds with no history of being dangerous. Should a person go to jail because their dog gets hit by a car and the person who stops to help gets bitten and seriously inured by an injured animal Perhaps the bite requires surgery or significant recovery. Sued? Perhaps. Jail? No. My question is, why are you loyal to a breed of dog when breeds of dog have faded out almost as fast as they were introduced in the last 400 years. Why hitch your wagon to this breed?

I want all irresponsible owners held responsible for their dogs actions, regardless of breed type.

That's an interesting situation and I don't know the answer. Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard of a dog being hit by a car and then biting the person administering aid.

You are correct. Breeds fade, get more popular, etc. and if we had this thread 30 years ago, guys like you would be calling for the elimination of all ROTTWEILERS, which is currently one of the worlds best working/service breeds.

My wagon isn't hitched to this breed. I love all dogs. I currently own two dogs and neither are pitbulls. I just think it's unfair for a breed to be punished because it's currently popular with some very poor owners.

 

[AAABatteries]

CDH, why can't we just hold the owners responsible instead of the eliminating the breed? Why are you opposed to this?

If the penalties are harsh enough for the owners and these dogs are as vicious as you say, then surely their ownership rates will drop naturally as owners will realize it's not worth the risk to own the breed.

You overrate the intelligence of the average person and you vastly overrate the intelligent of people who own pitbulls.

 

[Sand]

I need to check our HOA rules and see if these are allowed. Hoping not but if they are I may contact them to see what we can do to get them eliminated. Hopefully more and more HOAs take this step.

I was recently looking around for a rental home and I can say the majority of HOAs do not allow pit bulls. Its a shame really. I rescued a half pit half boxer a while back. Best dog I've ever had. Still had several places refuse to rent to me because of the dog.

Sounds like a good policy to have. I am sure your dog was the perfect gentle creature, but what is a property owner supposed to do? Meet every pet and give a thorough evaluation of it 6-7 times just so you can rent there? Think of it from their perspective and you can see how easy of a decision it is to simply outlaw these dogs from your property. Pretty easy decision to make, unless you are a moron.

Having a policy against Pitt or Pitt mixes also has the desired effect of legally allowing a landlord to weed out undesirables.

Undesirable in what way exactly?

if you have to ask...

What are you guys implying here? Race? Using the pitbull breed to fuel racism?

Why is it the first bastion of the uninformed is to immediately reach over to the "outraged" box and pull out the racism card? Effing ridiculous.

BTW, here in Alabama the majority of these owners are back woods white folk.

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

You cant punish owners of historically dangerous breeds without punishing owners of breeds with no history of being dangerous. Should a person go to jail because their dog gets hit by a car and the person who stops to help gets bitten and seriously inured by an injured animal Perhaps the bite requires surgery or significant recovery. Sued? Perhaps. Jail? No. My question is, why are you loyal to a breed of dog when breeds of dog have faded out almost as fast as they were introduced in the last 400 years. Why hitch your wagon to this breed?

I want all irresponsible owners held responsible for their dogs actions, regardless of breed type.

That's an interesting situation and I don't know the answer. Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard of a dog being hit by a car and then biting the person administering aid.

You are correct. Breeds fade, get more popular, etc. and if we had this thread 30 years ago, guys like you would be calling for the elimination of all ROTTWEILERS, which is currently one of the worlds best working/service breeds.

My wagon isn't hitched to this breed. I love all dogs. I currently own two dogs and neither are pitbulls. I just think it's unfair for a breed to be punished because it's currently popular with some very poor owners.

Actually the problem with the Rottweiler was similar until a small group of breeders selected the aggressiveness out of the breed after the breed fell into disfavor and the breed population was severely reduced due to lack of demand. Rotts are big dogs and hard to keep in small houses, trailers, apartments, etc. The breed fell out of favor due to size and difficulty/cost of keeping them as well as their public persona. The problem with pit mixes and pit bulls is that they are compact dogs, on the small side of the medium dog spectrum in size, so they are easier for the socio-economically disenfranchised to own and maintain.

Rottweilers were bred to be hunting dogs but their temperament proved better for herding so they were used for cattle herding until the early 1900's when they were used by butchers to pull carts (Weird but true). In 1905 the number of female Rotts had dwindled to 1. All modern Rotts are her descendants. The Germans then started breeding to turn them into police dogs. The breed we know today still has some herding instincts but mainly have the instincts of a service dog. Rotts are dangerous due to size but breeding standards have helped mellow the breed. There is also some confusion as to whether the attacks in the 60s and 70s were actually Rotts and not pit bulls or other "large head" breeds like boxers. I still get animal control officers who mislabel breeds.

Also, right now pit bulls make up nearly 30% of the dog population. Rottweiler never hit that level of popularity. There were fewer numbers so a selective breeding program (which I also advocated in the longer post that you admitted to not reading) was easier to engineer by a few select breeders to help pacify the breed. That same selective breeding will be difficult on a breed that makes up nearly a third of the dog population in the US. I would be willing to back a selective breeding program but the numbers and demographics just don't make it feasible right now.

I love dogs too, and have always had a dog. I see too many of the victims of these attacks first hand. I have seen too many of these dogs, seemingly sweet and good natured, viciously attack someone. I have seen dogs that bit, after being released to the shelter and they are the friendliest dog, but you know what that dog is capable of now. It doesn't take long to wear the shine off of the dog. I don't deal in second hand observations. This is a big part of my career. I see this everyday.

 

[Otis]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

Did you read my other post about how I would classify a "good" owner?

Or are you here just to make snarky comments that add nothing to this discussion?

I believe by default there can be no "good" pit bull owners, because to own one is irresponsible, period. Nobody is saying you can't have a dog. In fact, you can choose from among thousands of breeds of dog. Just not this one particular breed.

 

[El Floppo]

Can't remember the last time I read a thread where people talked past each other more than this one.

Well, I don't think anyone is trying to convince each other... both sides participating seem to be dug in so far it doesn't matter.

As a bystander though, I've had my opinion swayed. I used to be a "don't blame the breed" type of person... but after reading in this thread the last couple weeks and following the links... I'm ready for the pitbull holocaust.

When PETA of all groups, comes out and says, yea, these dogs are fk'd up... you know you've got a problem.

I think the gun analogy is apt to a point, in that we're talking about potential killing machines... but it's too weak beyond that... these are living beings, with the capacity to learn and love... and tear your dearest loved ones to shreds.

I've been back and forth twice on this already...

the last post I made linked the wiki page that lists deaths by dog attack. pit bulls only really appear on the list for the last 10 years or so (and have featured heavily in those years).

prior to that, and concurrently, Rottweilers were the leading COD in these, followed by German Shepherds. Those two seem to be more on the decline for deaths, while Pits are rising fast and furious. IIRC, somebody made a comment that Rotts and G Sheps have been conditioned out of the fighting and into the herding/nurturing side. Given the rapid rise of the Pits on the COD list, and the decline of the others- seems like it's more than just the breed. and yes- dead horse chewed by dogs- those breeds naturally possess the most ability to inflict the most harm... so there's that. except for ####### dachshunds apparently.

 

[Otis]

How often does a child get severely wounded or killed by a pit bull?

Here's a question for all you pit bull owners: what if you and all the other pit bull owners got together and agreed we would no longer own pit bulls, because we know it will save the life of one small child every 6 months for the rest of eternity. That wouldn't be a sensible trade?

 

[Sand]

Actually the problem with the Rottweiler was similar until a small group of breeders selected the aggressiveness out of the breed after the breed fell into disfavor and the breed population was severely reduced due to lack of demand. Rotts are big dogs and hard to keep in small houses, trailers, apartments, etc. The breed fell out of favor due to size and difficulty/cost of keeping them as well as their public persona. The problem with pit mixes and pit bulls is that they are compact dogs, on the small side of the medium dog spectrum in size, so they are easier for the socio-economically disenfranchised to own and maintain.


Rottweilers were bred to be hunting dogs but their temperament proved better for herding so they were used for cattle herding until the early 1900's when they were used by butchers to pull carts (Weird but true). In 1905 the number of female Rotts had dwindled to 1. All modern Rotts are her descendants. The Germans then started breeding to turn them into police dogs. The breed we know today still has some herding instincts but mainly have the instincts of a service dog. Rotts are dangerous due to size but breeding standards have helped mellow the breed. There is also some confusion as to whether the attacks in the 60s and 70s were actually Rotts and not pit bulls or other "large head" breeds like boxers. I still get animal control officers who mislabel breeds.

Also, right now pit bulls make up nearly 30% of the dog population. Rottweiler never hit that level of popularity. There were fewer numbers so a selective breeding program (which I also advocated in the longer post that you admitted to not reading) was easier to engineer by a few select breeders to help pacify the breed. That same selective breeding will be difficult on a breed that makes up nearly a third of the dog population in the US. I would be willing to back a selective breeding program but the numbers and demographics just don't make it feasible right now.

I love dogs too, and have always had a dog. I see too many of the victims of these attacks first hand. I have seen too many of these dogs, seemingly sweet and good natured, viciously attack someone. I have seen dogs that bit, after being released to the shelter and they are the friendliest dog, but you know what that dog is capable of now. It doesn't take long to wear the shine off of the dog. I don't deal in second hand observations. This is a big part of my career. I see this everyday.

Shame that female Rott was fertile. Rotts, in my experience, are fine by themselves, but act very different in a pack setting. Seeing one rott doesn't scare me, seeing three together does.

Also, had no idea that pits were 30% of all dogs. That's crazy. And says a lot about the general populace.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

CDH, why can't we just hold the owners responsible instead of the eliminating the breed? Why are you opposed to this?

If the penalties are harsh enough for the owners and these dogs are as vicious as you say, then surely their ownership rates will drop naturally as owners will realize it's not worth the risk to own the breed.

Dont want to eliminate them. ftr

 

[IC FBGCav]

Since this thread started 194 deaths recorded on wiki due to dog attacks. 127 of them had at least part pit bull in them. In 12 cases they did not determine the breed of dog.

 

[AAABatteries]

Actually the problem with the Rottweiler was similar until a small group of breeders selected the aggressiveness out of the breed after the breed fell into disfavor and the breed population was severely reduced due to lack of demand. Rotts are big dogs and hard to keep in small houses, trailers, apartments, etc. The breed fell out of favor due to size and difficulty/cost of keeping them as well as their public persona. The problem with pit mixes and pit bulls is that they are compact dogs, on the small side of the medium dog spectrum in size, so they are easier for the socio-economically disenfranchised to own and maintain.


Rottweilers were bred to be hunting dogs but their temperament proved better for herding so they were used for cattle herding until the early 1900's when they were used by butchers to pull carts (Weird but true). In 1905 the number of female Rotts had dwindled to 1. All modern Rotts are her descendants. The Germans then started breeding to turn them into police dogs. The breed we know today still has some herding instincts but mainly have the instincts of a service dog. Rotts are dangerous due to size but breeding standards have helped mellow the breed. There is also some confusion as to whether the attacks in the 60s and 70s were actually Rotts and not pit bulls or other "large head" breeds like boxers. I still get animal control officers who mislabel breeds.

Also, right now pit bulls make up nearly 30% of the dog population. Rottweiler never hit that level of popularity. There were fewer numbers so a selective breeding program (which I also advocated in the longer post that you admitted to not reading) was easier to engineer by a few select breeders to help pacify the breed. That same selective breeding will be difficult on a breed that makes up nearly a third of the dog population in the US. I would be willing to back a selective breeding program but the numbers and demographics just don't make it feasible right now.

I love dogs too, and have always had a dog. I see too many of the victims of these attacks first hand. I have seen too many of these dogs, seemingly sweet and good natured, viciously attack someone. I have seen dogs that bit, after being released to the shelter and they are the friendliest dog, but you know what that dog is capable of now. It doesn't take long to wear the shine off of the dog. I don't deal in second hand observations. This is a big part of my career. I see this everyday.

Shame that female Rott was fertile. Rotts, in my experience, are fine by themselves, but act very different in a pack setting. Seeing one rott doesn't scare me, seeing three together does.

Also, had no idea that pits were 30% of all dogs. That's crazy. And says a lot about the general populace.

Yes - if true, that is insane.

 

[eoMMan]

Since this thread started 194 deaths recorded on wiki due to dog attacks. 127 of them had at least part pit bull in them. In 12 cases they did not determine the breed of dog.

I saw this earlier and found it interesting (couldn't post it from my phone at the time):

"Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records

for dogs in the U.S., in some populations pit bulls are estimated to

comprise some 30-40% of the dog population, making it a very popular

breed. Considering that there were an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the

U.S., and assuming that pit bulls make up 10% of that population, there

would be approximately 5.3 million pit bulls in our society. In 2000, 13 pit

bulls were involved in 8 fatal attacks. That is roughly ONE dog out of

204,000 - or .000385 percent of the pit bull population."

http://www.realpitbull.com/perspective.html

Although I can't verify these population numbers, they seem reasonable. I wanted to post this to put everything in context.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

Did you read my other post about how I would classify a "good" owner?

Or are you here just to make snarky comments that add nothing to this discussion?

I believe by default there can be no "good" pit bull owners, because to own one is irresponsible, period. Nobody is saying you can't have a dog. In fact, you can choose from among thousands of breeds of dog. Just not this one particular breed.

i have friends that breed pits for dog shows ...great animals and pets ...gentile as can be ...have won many many ribbons

 

[parasaurolophus]

CDH, why can't we just hold the owners responsible instead of the eliminating the breed? Why are you opposed to this?

If the penalties are harsh enough for the owners and these dogs are as vicious as you say, then surely their ownership rates will drop naturally as owners will realize it's not worth the risk to own the breed.

This is a terrible solution because it assumes that the people that own these dogs have regard for the laws of the land.

 

[parasaurolophus]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

Did you read my other post about how I would classify a "good" owner?

Or are you here just to make snarky comments that add nothing to this discussion?

I believe by default there can be no "good" pit bull owners, because to own one is irresponsible, period. Nobody is saying you can't have a dog. In fact, you can choose from among thousands of breeds of dog. Just not this one particular breed.

i have friends that breed pits for dog shows ...great animals and pets ...gentile as can be ...have won many many ribbons

It is this kind of crap being spewed that has led to the rise in pit bull attacks. People have tricked themselves into believing that pit bulls are exactly the same as any other dog. Ownership has gone up. Support for the breed has gone up and therefore they are put in situations that are dangerous for children more often.

 

[steelerfan1]

To kill.

Its why my old black lab used to point at things. It was bred that way.

Here is just a random link/article... http://time.com/2891180/kfc-and-the-pit-bull-attack-of-a-little-girl/

Im sure you can see a wiki link if you want more basic info.

"Boy, three, left with horrific facial injuries as Labrador savages him while his mother strokes puppy"

"Labrador shot and killed after attacking toddler in Maine"

"Tulsa infant killed by lab"

maybe these were bred different than yours? can you explain their behavior?

I'm kinda sorta on your side... except that when you look at the previously linked list of deaths by dog- most of them are pit bulls. that's where I jump ship.

hi floppo. I could then asked to compare when these numbers started jumping but it really is not worth opening up as if 2 sides are unwilling to have the views changed I guess there is really no point at discussing, but this thread is like the bad car wreck you can't help but looking at...

Interesting- just checked Wiki and the first recorded Pit death is 1981. 70s looked the time of the German Shepard- and I remember that one being the dog to be afraid of when I was growing up in the 70s, even though I never had a run-in. looks like the 80s and 90s and even the early Aughts are dominated by the Rott (another dog I remember being on the be-scared-of list). Pits took over in the last 10 years... but definitely #1 with a bullet since then.

So- either the breed wasn't as popular, or people weren't recording these deaths, or (more likely) Pits have been cultivated to kill over the last 10 years. Unless somebody proposes a different response to that data, that goes more towards owner responsibility to me than breeding.

but damn skippy- there have been enough of the "my Pit/Rot was the sweetest dog in the world until it ripped apart my young child" that I wouldn't want to have one in my household (and do my best to limit my kids' exposure to them elsewhere).

eta: Pits, Rotts, and weinerdogs.

eta: link to wiki

hi floppo,

thanks for taking the time to look at info. seeing drastic changes in something forces you to look at what the factor could be to cause such a vast change in something. the huge influx of people breeding something for bad traits and at such high levels has been the down fall of the breed. it will happen again as soon as this breed is eliminated as well once the next big thing comes out. and don't let people tell you there aren't dogs like the pit capable of inflicting such type of damage. it's just that they are not super well known therefore haven't been destroyed yet. but give it time.

 

[eoMMan]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

Did you read my other post about how I would classify a "good" owner?

Or are you here just to make snarky comments that add nothing to this discussion?

I believe by default there can be no "good" pit bull owners, because to own one is irresponsible, period. Nobody is saying you can't have a dog. In fact, you can choose from among thousands of breeds of dog. Just not this one particular breed.

Actually, there aren't thousands of breeds of dog.....

"Now, there are about 340 breeds recognized by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI), the world governing body of dog breeds, sometimes known as the World Canine Organization. But the standards for breed recognition vary from country to country – the American Kennel Club currently recognizes only 167 breeds."

http://www.livescience.com/8420-incredible-explosion-dog-breeds.html

 

[AAABatteries]

Ignoring my objections to the breed for a moment - I'm having a hard time believing these numbers - 30%? Just unbelievable - I know my anecdotal evidence is wrong but I just don't see that many pitbulls by comparison to other dogs. I mean, I know we have a high percentage of mouth breathers in the country but I never realized it was this high.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

Did you read my other post about how I would classify a "good" owner?

Or are you here just to make snarky comments that add nothing to this discussion?

I believe by default there can be no "good" pit bull owners, because to own one is irresponsible, period. Nobody is saying you can't have a dog. In fact, you can choose from among thousands of breeds of dog. Just not this one particular breed.

Actually, there aren't thousands of breeds of dog.....

"Now, there are about 340 breeds recognized by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI), the world governing body of dog breeds, sometimes known as the World Canine Organization. But the standards for breed recognition vary from country to country – the American Kennel Club currently recognizes only 167 breeds."

http://www.livescience.com/8420-incredible-explosion-dog-breeds.html

why would someone want to own a dog that makes a huge percentage of the population uncomfortable? There are so many choices, why choose the one that a person knows will scare people.

It really makes no sense.

 

[steelerfan1]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.

And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

ok, Otis, ya got me. I'm going to come clean. I am a drain on society and a very irresponsible person.

I live in a single wide where I deal my drugs and own my pit bulls. I'm really hoping the breed can hang on a while longer as they really do look cool which is important as a degenerate lowlife like myself.

I have a feeling though that eventually the pit bull breed will be done with. I think once my pits are gone I will probably reflect back on my life and realize I made some bad irresponsible choices and just be done with my drug dealing ways and owning dogs all together. OK, I kid. I'll continue my thuglife scumbag ways, but just need to regroup a bit and see what direction I want to go in for my next breed of dog.

Now, seeing I really don't have any bills (Other than getting some new 23's for my 1979 Caprice Classic) and having a nice steading drug income coming in, I'm thinking I should be able to get 1 male and 2 females for my new breed to start the breeding program, as I have 3 nice chain spots in back of the trailer to put them where they can be segregated from people, as that's important to me. It helps with the mean unsocialized attitude I am looking for here.

Decisions, decisions....I've got some good choices but I'm having a hard time ranking them, so I'm asking for the FBG's help here.

Tosa-Inu- http://dinoanimals.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Tosa_Inu_11.jpg

Get this. This is awesome. This dog was bred as a fighting dog. Just like my pits. I could get these bad boys because they are bred for fighting. Not only that, they can get up to over 150 pounds. That's 3x larger than my pits and bred for the same purpose. I am digging this right now. After even more reading it appears that in the dog fighting underground that matches between these 150 pound Tosas vs pit bulls has the Tosas winning rather easily against my beloved pit bulls, some saying it is even cruel and unfair for the pits. The downside, as there always is...They really don't look cool. I mean they're big and all, but they just don't have that killa look I want. I mean maybe because they are a Japanese Breed I could name mine Kamikaze or something like that which would be neat, but still their look just ain't doing it for me 100%. Plus they are 3X as big as my pits which means I will be spending more on dog food, but Walmart has 50 pounds of Ol' Roy for like 12 bucks, so if I raise my drug prices just a tad I should be good. I may be able to even bring these guys to my Friday Night Dog Fights and enter them in competition. I could still hangout there and everything. Again though, the look isn't quite there.

Presa Canario- http://www.dogbreedslist.info/uploads/allimg/dog-pictures/Perro-de-Presa-Canario-2.jpg

Whoa, these bad boys go around 145 pounds and as long as I crop the ears these things look just like huge pits. Plus reading some of their profile: While spectators watched, the imported Mastiffs were pitted against animals such as wild elephants, lions, bears, bulls, and gladiators. These guys have a bunch of potential here. Might not be as tough as Tosa's, but the look is really winning me over.

Dogo Argentino- http://www.mrazovack9.com/images/dogs/494_1.jpg

OK, not bred for fighting which is a bit of a downer, but they were bred for big game hunting and also as a dog that would exhibit steadfast bravery and willingly protect its human companion to the death. also, the Dogo Argentino has been used for fighting due to its fearless nature and great stamina. I can get behind that. that sounds pretty tough, and of course it does have that pit bull look that I love. And at only 90 pounds, still bigger than my pits but not gonna run my Ol' Roy bill up as high as the others so far.

Gull Dong- http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images24/PakistaniBullDogGullDongDogs.JPG

It's a Pakistani fighting dog around 140 pounds. it has an attitude problem and apparently in the underground dog fighting world, much like the Tosa, it usually wins it's battles with the pit bull terrier. They do kind of look like a pit but, are pretty hard to get in the US of A (as of now anyway) which probably will make me look elsewhere.

Fila Brasileiro- http://www.dogbreedslist.info/uploads/allimg/dog-pictures/Fila-Brasileiro-2.jpg

also known as the Brazilian Mastiff is a large dog developed in Brazil. It is known for its superb tracking ability, aggressiveness and an unforgiving impetuous temperament. Owing to its size, temperament and potential for aggression, the Brazilian Mastiff has been banned in many countries. (But not the good ole USA folks) Gets to about 180 pounds. I have personally met one of these and I was very intimidated by it as it was lunging at the fence trying to get at me. It was huge and I have no doubt it could do me great bodily harm. The downside...It kind of looks like a blood hound, which isn't really the cool look I want, so it does knock it down some on my list.

Ovcharka- https://dystopium.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/holycrapdog2.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TKD4go1pAyU/UOjKSMJWWFI/AAAAAAAAJok/i3x-PhxM7uE/s1600/Bear+hunting+dog.jpg

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eec_1364398025 (GRAPHIC VIDEO!)

This is a Russian favorite and gets to 220 pounds. they were bred for protecting livestock from all kinds of predators and after viewing the disturbing video attached I believe they are more than capable. Plus a description of a characteristic, they also can be fairly aggressive towards people they do not know and with incorrect handling this can be problematic.

I believe at 220 pounds, although they were not bred for fighting like my pits and after watching said video (please be aware, it's graphic), we may have the "Could Matsuki defeat a 125 pound boxer" scenario here. At some point the weight is going to overpower the skill and I think it may be true here. And the fact that they are already very aggressive to strangers makes me off to a great start.

OK, FBG's, please pick 1 of the 6 for me. I believe with the proper mistreatment and breeding for the selective aggressive traits I am wanting, I can have a breed probably in the next 5 -10 years that will take off. All I need to do is get the info wide spread and have the thugs like myself see that this is the next big thing. Ideally maybe even like a 20/20 or 60 minutes type show displaying the breed.

Now, obviously this is me being sarcastic, but unfortunately there is truth to the above. Once the pit is gone people, rest assured there will be a replacement that can become just as capable

 

[comfortably numb]

just get a wolf?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

If a pit just snaps and kills someone, and previously was a sweet dog that was loveable and wouldn't hurt a fly, and there was no reason to think it was dangerous (other than it being a pit), what then? Murder charges for the owner? What if the owner did nothing wrong (other than owning a pit)? Who gets held responsible? Anyone? What do you tell the parents of the dead child?

See my other post but I think it is still on the owner. If he/she was shown to be a "good" owner, I think a lesser charge is appropriate....manslaughter?...but they should still be charged with something for sure.And this should apply to all breeds.

No such thing IMO.

Did you read my other post about how I would classify a "good" owner?

Or are you here just to make snarky comments that add nothing to this discussion?

I believe by default there can be no "good" pit bull owners, because to own one is irresponsible, period. Nobody is saying you can't have a dog. In fact, you can choose from among thousands of breeds of dog. Just not this one particular breed.

i have friends that breed pits for dog shows ...great animals and pets ...gentile as can be ...have won many many ribbons

It is this kind of crap being spewed that has led to the rise in pit bull attacks. People have tricked themselves into believing that pit bulls are exactly the same as any other dog. Ownership has gone up. Support for the breed has gone up and therefore they are put in situations that are dangerous for children more often.

Its not crap...its truth

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Tosa-Inu, banned in UK and very rare outside of Japan. Cost $2000

Presa Canario, Cost $800-$1200

Dogo Argentino $1500-$2500

Gull Dong... almost exactly a Pit, would eat the ban as well.

Fila Brasileiro $1000-$1500

Ovcharka $1500-$2000

Pittbulls are often given away. Usually can be had for $100. Though some charge a lot because of show quality.

The Pits are still more banned around the world... yet you touch on all of the others. http://listverse.com/2011/08/23/top-10-banned-dog-breeds/

So your response is"Im going to go to other banned/deadly dogs if you ban Pits." That is exactly what we expect from a Pit owner.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

still haven't heard a good reason why someone chooses a pit over the other 100+ other breeds out there.

 

[parasaurolophus]

still haven't heard a good reason why someone chooses a pit over the other 100+ other breeds out there.

Sometimes you see a dog and he gives you a look and you're hooked. I get the desire to save a life at a shelter. I dont get the desire to put other lives in danger.

 

[steelerfan1]

Tosa-Inu, banned in UK and very rare outside of Japan. Cost $2000

Presa Canario, Cost $800-$1200

Dogo Argentino $1500-$2500

Gull Dong... almost exactly a Pit, would eat the ban as well.

Fila Brasileiro $1000-$1500

Ovcharka $1500-$2000

Pittbulls are often given away. Usually can be had for $100. Though some charge a lot because of show quality.

The Pits are still more banned around the world... yet you touch on all of the others. http://listverse.com/2011/08/23/top-10-banned-dog-breeds/

So your response is"Im going to go to other banned/deadly dogs if you ban Pits." That is exactly what we expect from a Pit owner.

hello BST,

yes, unfortunately that will be the scenario played out with the % of the thugs and dregs who own these dogs. why wouldn't it?

i would love that to not be the case and to get rid of all the people like this but it won't happen and the cycle will continue.

do you think pit bulls were always given away and so cheap, or is it maybe because they've been so overbred and thrown away that it has got it to that?

do you really think $1500 for the next big thing will stop the thug life types who can make that in a few hours or so?

once a few years of over breeding happens, prices will come down, don't worry.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

But several of those breeds are different in their instinctive makeup. Its how they are bred/designed. You cant get away from it.

Like the Fila, its big and can be nasty and protective. But its base instincts are flatly and irrefutably different then a Pit.

 

[parasaurolophus]

It does not matter if other breeds exist that are dangerous. They are their own topic of discussion. This is about pit bulls. It's like saying you think grenades should be legal because gasoline and metal containers are legal.

 

[steelerfan1]

But several of those breeds are different in their instinctive makeup. Its how they are bred/designed. You cant get away from it.

Like the Fila, its big and can be nasty and protective. But its base instincts are flatly and irrefutably different then a Pit.

to me there instinctive make up is more frightening to me, as they are bred with traits towards aggressiveness towards humans. the pit bull was not bred for aggression towards humans.

now, give me a pit bull who i can mistreat and focus on making aggressive and breeding the defects for those traits is of course possible as we know, but some of the above breeds have that as a trait intentionally.

all the dogs on my list are also not banned in the usa that i am aware other than the APBT in certain areas.

 

[steelerfan1]

It does not matter if other breeds exist that are dangerous. They are their own topic of discussion. This is about pit bulls. It's like saying you think grenades should be legal because gasoline and metal containers are legal.

i can't find the ovcharka thread. it may have been deleted in the upgrade.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

But several of those breeds are different in their instinctive makeup. Its how they are bred/designed. You cant get away from it.

Like the Fila, its big and can be nasty and protective. But its base instincts are flatly and irrefutably different then a Pit.

to me there instinctive make up is more frightening to me, as they are bred with traits towards aggressiveness towards humans. the pit bull was not bred for aggression towards humans.

now, give me a pit bull who i can mistreat and focus on making aggressive and breeding the defects for those traits is of course possible as we know, but some of the above breeds have that as a trait intentionally.

all the dogs on my list are also not banned in the usa that i am aware other than the APBT in certain areas.

Nah. Aggressiveness can come from any dog. To finish the job and end the life is a bit different.

Many of these other breeds will attack and then eventually relent. Not a pit, thats not how they were designed. It will spend hours to kill its target.

Personally I'm not as scared of a single Pit as I am vs these bigger dogs, but that's because I'm a very big guy.

Now if its a pack of dogs... get me the #### away from the Pits. Screw that. They will finish the job. Neck and head... not arms and ankles.

 

[cockroach]

Since this thread started 194 deaths recorded on wiki due to dog attacks. 127 of them had at least part pit bull in them. In 12 cases they did not determine the breed of dog.

I saw this earlier and found it interesting (couldn't post it from my phone at the time):

"Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records

for dogs in the U.S., in some populations pit bulls are estimated to

comprise some 30-40% of the dog population, making it a very popular

breed. Considering that there were an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the

U.S., and assuming that pit bulls make up 10% of that population, there

would be approximately 5.3 million pit bulls in our society. In 2000, 13 pit

bulls were involved in 8 fatal attacks. That is roughly ONE dog out of

204,000 - or .000385 percent of the pit bull population."

http://www.realpitbull.com/perspective.html

Although I can't verify these population numbers, they seem reasonable. I wanted to post this to put everything in context.

ie, the ghetto

there is no way that pits are 30% of the total dog population

 

[steelerfan1]

But several of those breeds are different in their instinctive makeup. Its how they are bred/designed. You cant get away from it.

Like the Fila, its big and can be nasty and protective. But its base instincts are flatly and irrefutably different then a Pit.

to me there instinctive make up is more frightening to me, as they are bred with traits towards aggressiveness towards humans. the pit bull was not bred for aggression towards humans.

now, give me a pit bull who i can mistreat and focus on making aggressive and breeding the defects for those traits is of course possible as we know, but some of the above breeds have that as a trait intentionally.

all the dogs on my list are also not banned in the usa that i am aware other than the APBT in certain areas.

Nah. Aggressiveness can come from any dog. To finish the job and end the life is a bit different.

Many of these other breeds will attack and then eventually relent. Not a pit, thats not how they were designed. It will spend hours to kill its target.

Personally I'm not as scared of a single Pit as I am vs these bigger dogs, but that's because I'm a very big guy.

Now if its a pack of dogs... get me the #### away from the Pits. Screw that. They will finish the job. Neck and head... not arms and ankles.

yeah...seeing those 200+ pound ovcharka's treat a brown bear like it's you know what and being paired, i guess we can have 1 more thing to disagree on.....

 

[parasaurolophus]

It does not matter if other breeds exist that are dangerous. They are their own topic of discussion. This is about pit bulls. It's like saying you think grenades should be legal because gasoline and metal containers are legal.

i can't find the ovcharka thread. it may have been deleted in the upgrade.

You should probably start one. Maybe you can make a relevant point in that thread.

 

[cockroach]

Inside Edition video titled How You Should React During a Dog Attack, of some dogs attacking a guy in the street while a bunch of people try to help him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhlcwxBPsCc

I watched the video to try to learn what to do if being attacked... the advice was pretty much let them chew off your arm.

 

[steelerfan1]

It does not matter if other breeds exist that are dangerous. They are their own topic of discussion. This is about pit bulls. It's like saying you think grenades should be legal because gasoline and metal containers are legal.

it does not matter that other breeds kill. cuz not pit bull. i follow you.

 

[eoMMan]

Since this thread started 194 deaths recorded on wiki due to dog attacks. 127 of them had at least part pit bull in them. In 12 cases they did not determine the breed of dog.

I saw this earlier and found it interesting (couldn't post it from my phone at the time):

"Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records

for dogs in the U.S., in some populations pit bulls are estimated to

comprise some 30-40% of the dog population, making it a very popular

breed. Considering that there were an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the

U.S., and assuming that pit bulls make up 10% of that population, there

would be approximately 5.3 million pit bulls in our society. In 2000, 13 pit

bulls were involved in 8 fatal attacks. That is roughly ONE dog out of

204,000 - or .000385 percent of the pit bull population."

http://www.realpitbull.com/perspective.html

Although I can't verify these population numbers, they seem reasonable. I wanted to post this to put everything in context.

ie, the ghetto

there is no way that pits are 30% of the total dog population

30% in some areas.....they estimated 10% of the total dog population.

Try reading it again.

 

[cockroach]

Since this thread started 194 deaths recorded on wiki due to dog attacks. 127 of them had at least part pit bull in them. In 12 cases they did not determine the breed of dog.

I saw this earlier and found it interesting (couldn't post it from my phone at the time):

"Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records

for dogs in the U.S., in some populations pit bulls are estimated to

comprise some 30-40% of the dog population, making it a very popular

breed. Considering that there were an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the

U.S., and assuming that pit bulls make up 10% of that population, there

would be approximately 5.3 million pit bulls in our society. In 2000, 13 pit

bulls were involved in 8 fatal attacks. That is roughly ONE dog out of

204,000 - or .000385 percent of the pit bull population."

http://www.realpitbull.com/perspective.html

Although I can't verify these population numbers, they seem reasonable. I wanted to post this to put everything in context.

ie, the ghetto

there is no way that pits are 30% of the total dog population

30% in some areas.....they estimated 10% of the total dog population.

Try reading it again.

Yea, I bolded it and said where the "some areas" were. I read it fine the first time, sparky.

 

[Otis]

still haven't heard a good reason why someone chooses a pit over the other 100+ other breeds out there.

Because people are incredibly stupid.

 

[eoMMan]

My doctor just informed me that posting in this thread isn't good for my blood pressure so I'm done here.

Before I leave though, I want to thank bigbottom. He is very level headed and although we disagree on this topic, we can still have a civil, respectful conversation about it. Thanks, bud.

Ruff ruff, I'm out.