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Yet another Pitt Bull attack (1 Viewer)

FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Man you are a first class POS.  You got issues.
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I'm sorry you feel that way.  Any specific reason or just my general stance that we should start by trying to address the potentially existential issues first. On June 7th in this thread I said I was coming around to the anti-pit bull stance.  But I won't apologize for thinking that we should address major issues that threaten our entire population like corporate welfare, devolution into a police state, climate change, our national obsession with guns etc., y'know things that threaten millions of people, before prioritizing the tragic death of 28 people every year.

 
Man created this breed...if you wanna be pissed at someone be pissed at man...we cause 99 % of our own problems then we scream to heavens in anger...kind of ridiculous when you stop and think about it

 
take the same route from the train home 3 days a week ... usually pass a lot of kids, families, etc

yesterday I happened upon an older dude, had to be early 60s - maybe 5'5" 120 lbs soaking wet ... and he was being pulled by the most enormous Pit i have ever seen. he was beatin' on the dog, and screaming in Spanish at the top of his lungs - scaring most of the kids to the point that they ran against traffic to cross the street. 

dude could barely keep him restrained, and that sum##### was lunging at everyone they passed. 

grade-A ####### jagoff - it's not a matter of IF with this beast, just a matter of WHEN.

and it's gonna be ugly when it does go down.  absolute carnage. 

 
Otis said:
I guess easy to say, unless your kid is one of the 28. 
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Think of the children?  Really?  That's the best argument to prioritize banning a dog breed over dealing with the thousands of other far more dangerous issues facing America?

Of course this issue is tragic when it happens, one of the most horrific things that could happen to a child.  No one disagrees with that.  But this doesn't even crack the top 100 life endangering issues facing children in this country.  Perspective matters.

Like I said above, I'm lockstep with you in addressing the pit bull issue, I'll even support banning them but let's start higher up on the list of things we need to deal with first.  And "we change the things we can" is an inadequate response because there are dozens of issues, at least, that can be dealt with that would save more lives than banning pit bulls.

 
Chaka said:
Think of the children?  Really?  That's the best argument to prioritize banning a dog breed over dealing with the thousands of other far more dangerous issues facing America?

Of course this issue is tragic when it happens, one of the most horrific things that could happen to a child.  No one disagrees with that.  But this doesn't even crack the top 100 life endangering issues facing children in this country.  Perspective matters.

Like I said above, I'm lockstep with you in addressing the pit bull issue, I'll even support banning them but let's start higher up on the list of things we need to deal with first.  And "we change the things we can" is an inadequate response because there are dozens of issues, at least, that can be dealt with that would save more lives than banning pit bulls.
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But this logic suggests that until we fix gun control and ISIS, we should just let everything else go?  Doesn't make much sense.

 
Man, this thread is crazy. I think people are a little too into the easy/quick and ultimately wrong fix here. Pit bulls are perfectly fine dogs, they are extremely loyal, and are very protective. They are more aggressive than most other breeds, but hardly anything of epidemic like, "Pit bulls are a menace to society levels"

I, as well as my close friends and family have trained, and been around all sorts of dogs my entire life. ANY DOG can be a killing machine(short of your extremely tiny breeds) if trained to be, or mistreated or abused. The problem is that somewhere along the line, pit bulls became a symbol of how much of a badass their owner is. These dogs aren't trained, are usually mistreated, and tend to lash out, and more often than not, their owners have similar personalities. 

Dobermans and Rottweilers used to be the dogs of choice for these types of people decades ago, but they fell out of style. Did those breeds suddenly become more docile and controllable? Or did people who mistreat or aim to use pets as weapons just stop getting them?

 
travdogg said:
Man, this thread is crazy. I think people are a little too into the easy/quick and ultimately wrong fix here. Pit bulls are perfectly fine dogs, they are extremely loyal, and are very protective. They are more aggressive than most other breeds, but hardly anything of epidemic like, "Pit bulls are a menace to society levels"

I, as well as my close friends and family have trained, and been around all sorts of dogs my entire life. ANY DOG can be a killing machine(short of your extremely tiny breeds) if trained to be, or mistreated or abused. The problem is that somewhere along the line, pit bulls became a symbol of how much of a badass their owner is. These dogs aren't trained, are usually mistreated, and tend to lash out, and more often than not, their owners have similar personalities. 

Dobermans and Rottweilers used to be the dogs of choice for these types of people decades ago, but they fell out of style. Did those breeds suddenly become more docile and controllable? Or did people who mistreat or aim to use pets as weapons just stop getting them?
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again...i have friends who breed and train pit bull`s for  show dogs ...they are gentle and beautiful ...not once hve i seen anything menacing  from hundreds of these dogs over the years...it really is the owner 

A gun is just a piece of steel ...until you load it...then its a weapon 

 
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I can’t count the number of times someone who has read too many books on dog breeds will say, “Well, because she’s a Dalmatian, she’s naturally nervous,” or “He’s part border collie, part pit bull, and it’s the pit bull that’s the problem.” Or “Dachshunds are always a problem breed.” I have to explain to these clients that they’re making a fundamental mistake by blaming the breed of a dog for its behavior problems. It’s the same thing when people make generalizations about human races and ethnicity - that all Latinos are lazy, that all Irish are drunkards, or that all Italians are mobsters. When it comes to trying to understand and correct a dog’s conduct, breed always comes third in importance, after animal and dog. In my opinion, there’s no such thing as a “problem breed.” However, there is no shortage of “problem owners.”

It’s vital to remember that every breed is still always an animal/ dog first. All dogs share the same psychology. The breed is just the outfit that that particular canine is wearing, and sometimes a set of special needs he or she might have. You’re not going to be able to understand or control your dog’s behavior by considering him or her simply as a “victim” of a breed.
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Millan, Cesar; Peltier, Melissa Jo. Cesar's Way: The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding and Correcting Common Dog Problems (Kindle Locations 1359-1360). Crown/Archetype. Kindle Edition.

 
Chaka said:
Think of the children?  Really?  That's the best argument to prioritize banning a dog breed over dealing with the thousands of other far more dangerous issues facing America?

Of course this issue is tragic when it happens, one of the most horrific things that could happen to a child.  No one disagrees with that.  But this doesn't even crack the top 100 life endangering issues facing children in this country.  Perspective matters.

Like I said above, I'm lockstep with you in addressing the pit bull issue, I'll even support banning them but let's start higher up on the list of things we need to deal with first.  And "we change the things we can" is an inadequate response because there are dozens of issues, at least, that can be dealt with that would save more lives than banning pit bulls.
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yeah, but getting rid of pit bulls is a much easier fix.  Really, all you'd have to do is offer 1 tribal tattoo, and 2 cans of Monster energy drink, in exchange for each pit.

 
BustedKnuckles said:
again...i have friends who breed and train pit bull`s for  show dogs ...they are gentle and beautiful ...not once hve i seen anything menacing  from hundreds of these dogs over the years...it really is the owner 

A gun is just a piece of steel ...until you load it...then its a weapon 
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But using this analogy, a pit bull is a sawed off shotgun while most other breeds are single shot .22's. They are simply more capable of catastrophic damage. Sure they can be great dogs, but when they do attack, the frequency of fatalities is much higher than average. 

 
BigJohn said:
But using this analogy, a pit bull is a sawed off shotgun while most other breeds are single shot .22's. They are simply more capable of catastrophic damage. Sure they can be great dogs, but when they do attack, the frequency of fatalities is much higher than average. 
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You do realize we're talking about less than 50 deaths or so annually for ALL dog breeds?

Some of you guys make pitbulls out to be these killing machines that are murdering people on daily basis. 

Simmer down nah.

 
Otis said:
lol
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Not for nothing, but they are. It's the types of owners this dog attracts that cause the problem.

Show me a story where a responsible pit bull owner had their dog attack/kill someone.

Now if you want to regulate pitbull ownership like guns, now we're cooking. But to outright ban them is overzealous and misguided. 

 
BigJohn said:
But using this analogy, a pit bull is a sawed off shotgun while most other breeds are single shot .22's. They are simply more capable of catastrophic damage. Sure they can be great dogs, but when they do attack, the frequency of fatalities is much higher than average. 
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How about a pitbull is a gun, a regular dog is a BB gun. One requires a license to own, the other you can buy for your kid at toys r us.

 
Harry Manback said:
Not for nothing, but they are. It's the types of owners this dog attracts that cause the problem.

Show me a story where a responsible pit bull owner had their dog attack/kill someone.
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What are the standards for being a responsible owner versus an irresponsible owner?  Because I am anticipating a no true Scotsman argument in rebuttal to any such example raised. The simple fact that the dog attacked or killed someone means that the owner must have been irresponsible. 

 
bigbottom said:
What are the standards for being a responsible owner versus an irresponsible owner?  Because I am anticipating a no true Scotsman argument in rebuttal to any such example raised. The simple fact that the dog attacked or killed someone means that the owner must have been irresponsible. 
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Similar arguments could be made about gun owners, yet they are able to come up with a standard, no? 

 
BowieMercs said:
How is PonyBoy any way?
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Doing well.  Living in Nebraska, still working, in the energy business as a consulting engineer.  Raised up two great kids who are now out of the home and proud that they each are doing well. Lovely young ladies both.  Obviously they favor their mother.  Lets face it, BB would not make an attractive female. 

 
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Otis said:
But this logic suggests that until we fix gun control and ISIS, we should just let everything else go?  Doesn't make much sense.
Click to expand...
No, it suggests that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of issues that we should prioritize ahead of this issue.

 
travdogg said:
Pit bulls are perfectly fine dogs, they are extremely loyal, and are very protective. They are more aggressive than most other breeds, but hardly anything of epidemic like, "Pit bulls are a menace to society levels"

I, as well as my close friends and family have trained, and been around all sorts of dogs my entire life. ANY DOG can be a killing machine(short of your extremely tiny breeds) if trained to be, or mistreated or abused. The problem is that somewhere along the line, pit bulls became a symbol of how much of a badass their owner is. These dogs aren't trained, are usually mistreated, and tend to lash out, and more often than not, their owners have similar personalities. 

Dobermans and Rottweilers used to be the dogs of choice for these types of people decades ago, but they fell out of style. Did those breeds suddenly become more docile and controllable? Or did people who mistreat or aim to use pets as weapons just stop getting them?
Click to expand...
I have been on the pro Pit Bull side for most of this thread but it is willful ignorance that you can't at least acknowledge that Pit bulls (and Cane Corso and Presa Canarios and Rottweilers, which belong with these guys not the Dobies, etc) are inherently more dangerous that Dobermans and German Shepards.  While they can be trained to do otherwise Dobies and Shepards naturally snap and circle, those others naturally grab and shake that represents a huge difference in the amount of damage they can do in the same period of time.

 
eoMMan said:
You do realize we're talking about less than 50 deaths or so annually for ALL dog breeds?

Some of you guys make pitbulls out to be these killing machines that are murdering people on daily basis. 

Simmer down nah.
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Um, nope. I didn't imply the frequency of attacks at all. Move on. 

 
Harry Manback said:
Similar arguments could be made about gun owners, yet they are able to come up with a standard, no? 
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That doesn't help me provide you with examples that meet the standard you are applying to determine responsible/irresponsible status. If you can explain your standard, then I can see if there are examples. 

 
bigbottom said:
That doesn't help me provide you with examples that meet the standard you are applying to determine responsible/irresponsible status. If you can explain your standard, then I can see if there are examples. 
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My point, is that saying "the simple fact that the dog attacked or killed someone means that the owner must have been irresponsible" is a pretty terrible argument.

The same can be said about gun owners. Yet we came up with standards.

How about this, to own a pitbull you must:

1. Get a license which requires a criminal background check, if you have a violent past you are disqualified. You must interview with the Animal Control officer of the town you reside in and they approve the license.

2. You must register for a training course within the first 6 months of owning the dog and pass the course/acquire a certificate showing the dog has passed training

3. The dog must be leashed at all times when in public (though this applies for most dogs)

 
Harry Manback said:
My point, is that saying "the simple fact that the dog attacked or killed someone means that the owner must have been irresponsible" is a pretty terrible argument.

The same can be said about gun owners. Yet we came up with standards.

How about this, to own a pitbull you must:

1. Get a license which requires a criminal background check, if you have a violent past you are disqualified. You must interview with the Animal Control officer of the town you reside in and they approve the license.

2. You must register for a training course within the first 6 months of owning the dog and pass the course/acquire a certificate showing the dog has passed training

3. The dog must be leashed at all times when in public (though this applies for most dogs)
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You seem to have forgotten your original request.  It was:

"Show me a story where a responsible pit bull owner had their dog attack/kill someone."

In able to find a story to meet your request, I need to know how you determine the difference between a responsible and an irresponsible owner, or what factors you consider in making that determination. 

Your prescription above about proposed regulations/certification requirements appear to be unrelated to your request to which I responded. 

 
bigbottom said:
You seem to have forgotten your original request.  It was:

"Show me a story where a responsible pit bull owner had their dog attack/kill someone."

In able to find a story to meet your request, I need to know how you determine the difference between a responsible and an irresponsible owner, or what factors you consider in making that determination. 

Your prescription above about proposed regulations/certification requirements appear to be unrelated to your request to which I responded. 
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Ok.

 
I would submit it is inherently IRRESPONSIBLE to own one of these animals.  There is no such thing as a responsible owner.

It is akin to talking about your neighbor, the really responsible owner of a nuke in his garage.

No.

 
I agree that it is irresponsible to own one of these animals - but by animals I mean any dog of any breed - without being familiar with dog psychology and what is required to be a pack leader. I also think that those same people - the people who are unfamiliar with dog psychology and are, as a result, ignorant to how a pack operates - are the majority of the people who are afraid of powerful dogs.

I guarantee that if you're making a negative comment that negatively stereotypes an entire breed of dog - much like making a negative comment about an entire culture of people - that it immediately casts a huge spotlight on the fact that you don't have the appropriate set of tools in your brain to properly contribute to the conversation.

 
Harry Manback said:
How about this, to own a pitbull you must register for a training course within the first 6 months of owning the dog and pass the course/acquire a certificate showing the dog has passed training
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Breed doesn’t necessarily have to shape a dog’s behavior, but powerful breed dogs have special needs and require special people to care for them - dedicated and responsible people. Unfortunately, these two lawyers were not equipped to deal with these powerful animals. They took the dogs to obedience training, but as you know by now, learning to respond to commands does nothing to take away an unbalanced dog’s fear, anxiety, nervousness, dominance, or aggression.

Chaka said:
I have been on the pro Pit Bull side for most of this thread but it is willful ignorance that you can't at least acknowledge that Pit bulls (and Cane Corso and Presa Canarios and Rottweilers, which belong with these guys not the Dobies, etc) are inherently more dangerous that Dobermans and German Shepards.
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For those who would argue that the dogs’ breed is at fault, it is indeed true that Presas, Cane corsos, pit bulls, and Rottweilers were all originally bred to be canine “gladiators.” But they are animals and dogs first, before breed. That same powerful energy can be redirected and channeled into other activities. Humans were gladiators in the past too, but today we redirect that energy into basketball, baseball, soccer, football, and hockey. Presa Canarios were originally bred to be guard dogs, but they were also used by the Spanish to herd. Herd dogs don’t kill their flock. Presas and their relatives have in the recent past made excellent show dogs. Their physical and psychological energy has been redirected into their performance in the ring.

Millan, Cesar; Peltier, Melissa Jo. Cesar's Way: The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding and Correcting Common Dog Problems (Kindle Locations 2300-2303). Crown/Archetype. Kindle Edition.

 
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ChainsawU said:
I agree that it is irresponsible to own one of these animals - but by animals I mean any dog of any breed - without being familiar with dog psychology and what is required to be a pack leader. I also think that those same people - the people who are unfamiliar with dog psychology and are, as a result, ignorant to how a pack operates - are the majority of the people who are afraid of powerful dogs.

I guarantee that if you're making a negative comment that negatively stereotypes an entire breed of dog - much like making a negative comment about an entire culture of people - that it immediately casts a huge spotlight on the fact that you don't have the appropriate set of tools in your brain to properly contribute to the conversation.
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Let's not make this about dog psychology.  That's weirdo ####. 

 
ChainsawU said:
I agree that it is irresponsible to own one of these animals - but by animals I mean any dog of any breed - without being familiar with dog psychology and what is required to be a pack leader. I also think that those same people - the people who are unfamiliar with dog psychology and are, as a result, ignorant to how a pack operates - are the majority of the people who are afraid of powerful dogs.

I guarantee that if you're making a negative comment that negatively stereotypes an entire breed of dog - much like making a negative comment about an entire culture of people - that it immediately casts a huge spotlight on the fact that you don't have the appropriate set of tools in your brain to properly contribute to the conversation.
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Wut?

 
Just found out an old friend and his retriever were attacked on their property last week by a neighbor's pit who got out.  Dog has serious injuries from saving the owner.  Owner has aless serious injuries and massive PTSD symptoms right now. 

I've offered my services. We'll see if we can get the homeowner's insurance to pony up.

 
Henry Ford said:
Just found out an old friend and his retriever were attacked on their property last week by a neighbor's pit who got out.  Dog has serious injuries from saving the owner.  Owner has aless serious injuries and massive PTSD symptoms right now. 

I've offered my services. We'll see if we can get the homeowner's insurance to pony up.
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This is the true problem with Pits. Everyone seems to be focused on how few deaths occur. No one seems to focus on the number of attacks and the serious harm involved or trauma that follows. When did our benchmark on danger become "Only if it kills you is it dangerous"

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
This is the true problem with Pits. Everyone seems to be focused on how few deaths occur. No one seems to focus on the number of attacks and the serious harm involved or trauma that follows. When did our benchmark on danger become "Only if it kills you is it dangerous"
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Probably somewhere around the time we stopped reporting murders on the news.

 
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