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Yet another Pitt Bull attack (1 Viewer)

beavers said:
She will learn the risks of riding a bike, and how to reduce them. Walking outside and getting attacked by the neighbor dog is not something she or I can control.

As for my irrational blood lust for killing an innocent dog ...  :lmao:   Pit bulls are genetically breed to be a viscous dog. It can turn on you at any given moment. Good thing this family tried to rescue this innocent pit bull

http://fox5sandiego.com/2015/09/08/pit-bull-saved-from-death-row-mauls-teen-on-first-day-home/

Poor Darla advocated for innocent pit bulls ... And look what happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2027286/Darla-Napora-Pregnant-woman-dies-mauled-pet-dog-living-room.html

This pit advocate even posted pics of her wonderful pits only to find out that the innocent dogs are murderers.

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2016/01/dog-bite-fatality-pit-bulls-kill-boy-in-yuba-county.html

Innocent?

No.so.much.
This sentence hurts my brain. Not only is the idea you are trying to get across with it wrong ,maybe you should lead a crusade against public schools, then come back to this one

 
Good stuff here
And should that wonderfully re-trained pit ever lose it's ####- for whatever reason- who stops it and how? I'm thinking that that is the biggest problem most have with certain breeds. Not so much a judgement of their temperaments, but rather of their physicality to act above and beyond anyone's ability to prevent them from doing serious damage. 

 
And should that wonderfully re-trained pit ever lose it's ####- for whatever reason- who stops it and how?
not saying these things cant work out, but for me personally, i'm not going to take on that project. i don't want to see any people aggression out of my dogs at all, unless of course someone is trying to do us harm. that's something i think i would pass on.

 
true or false: the 200+ kids who have been killed by pit bulls would still be alive today if those dogs were pugs.
you have always seemed like a nice person.  That being said you need to just stop.  You are really making yourself look foolish here. 

 
beavers said:
I have not seen the dog running freely - I do know he got out once, but it was by accident.

My partner spoke to me about the issue last night. She is taking the lead on this and I promised to take a back seat and let her deal ... She was slightly upset that I contacted the trustee even before talking to her. I get it, and understand that going nuclear isn't the best first approach. I am extremely passionate about having to deal with this situation, and my partner realizes this so she's taking the lead ... We both agreed it's for the best, and we'd like to be friends with the neighbors and cooler heads prevail.

With that being said, the approach will be talking to the neighbors. Politely confronting them (without the presence of alcohol) about our fears. I will not be contacting the township trustee any longer - at least until all other options are exhausted. Her dad gets his haircut by the trustee - but at this time, we won't ask him to talk about the issue with him. We haven't even moved in yet, so we are going to let the situation develop. At the same time, our daughter will not be in the house (if the kids want to play, they can come over).

My partner mentioned that maybe I'll warm up to the dog. I won't. The lab / pit mix ... possibly. The full pit - never.
well, that's a big plus that they just don't let them run around. i hope your partner can throw that part into the conversation and convey that that needs to continue.

i'm glad you're taking the approach you decided on. to me that sounds like a great start and hopefully end to the situation and all parties involved can carry on and maintain a good neighborly relationship. anything that threatens good craft beer drinking to me definitely needs to be nipped in the bud ;)

sincerely, good luck to you.

 
What's foolish is comparing cycling deaths to pit bull fatalities.
No, what's foolish and completely ignorant is you. You claim to do this for the well being of your daughter but you're simply doing it out of an irrational fear and ignorance. Cycling deaths were brought up because of your asinine claim that you're doing this for her safety. Cycling puts your daughters health and well being at a far greater risk than your neighbours dog does but you ignorance and fear don't let you see that. 

 
well, that's a big plus that they just don't let them run around. i hope your partner can throw that part into the conversation and convey that that needs to continue.

i'm glad you're taking the approach you decided on. to me that sounds like a great start and hopefully end to the situation and all parties involved can carry on and maintain a good neighborly relationship. anything that threatens good craft beer drinking to me definitely needs to be nipped in the bud ;)

sincerely, good luck to you.
Thanks for your advice. We'll add your suggestion about not running freely. This was a much easier / informative discussion with you vs. discussing the comparison of dog attacks to cycling deaths.

 
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No, what's foolish and completely ignorant is you. You claim to do this for the well being of your daughter but you're simply doing it out of an irrational fear and ignorance. Cycling deaths were brought up because of your asinine claim that you're doing this for her safety. Cycling puts your daughters health and well being at a far greater risk than your neighbours dog does but you ignorance and fear don't let you see that. 
Why haven't you compared a different breed? We talked about statistical validity a few pages ago ...

As I mentioned previously, if I didn't have a 5 year old, this dog would be a non issue. Do you have children?

 
What's foolish is comparing cycling deaths to pit bull fatalities.
comparing a machine to a living breathing creature i don't think was the intent perse .

i think the thing trying to be conveyed here is the irrational fear.

i understand irrational fear as i suffer from it. i am afraid to death to fly. i literately go pale and sweat  the whole trip. my dr gave me xanax last trip and it didn't make a dent in calming me down. i just know the plane is going down. a piece of machinery that big should not be made to go in the air. i watch the damn engines vibrate on that poorly welded wing and know one of them is going to drop in the ocean or the dang roof is going to peel open and suck me out into the air at 35,000 feet.

we had a friend who was a pilot from a major airline who is retired, have several friends who travel for work many times per week and they all tell me the same thing. it is the safest thing on earth to do. far more safer than me even taking my 20 minute drive into work. although the pilot did say his worst airport to land in was san diego. sorry, not wanting to panic you san diego folks..anyway, i understand this, i really do, my mind gets it. those are the facts and they are FACTS.

then i can watch castaway or the gray and watch tom hanks and liam neesan crash and burn and all these facts mean absolutely nothing to me and i know the next time i get on the plane this May that i am going to crash and i am going to die a gruesome horrible death.

if i was on this board screaming to everyone that you putting your child on a plane to go to disneyland  (don't even get me started about letting a child go on some of those rides) that that was an unfit parent because planes are so dangerous and so many people have died, you would all be :lmao: at me telling me i am crazy and throwing all these stats out at me saying how safe it is and my chances of dying in a plane crash is just an irrational silly fear. i would still from a factual point understand you, but it would not change my mind that i am going to die the next time i get on a plane.

there are roughly 5 million pit bulls and there have been 27 deaths lastyear. do i need to do the % break down on 27 on 5,000,000. 

 
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Thanks for your advice. We'll add your suggestion about not running freely. This was a much easier / informative discussion with you vs. discussing the comparison of dog attacks to cycling deaths.
you're welcome. now if you'll excuse me i have to go take some meth and i'm already running late for a pit fight with 1 of my dogs i'm scheduled to be in ;)

 
comparing a machine to a living breathing creature i don't think was the intent perse .

i think the thing trying to be conveyed here is the irrational fear.

i understand irrational fear as i suffer from it. i am afraid to death to fly. i literately go pale and sweat  the whole trip. my dr gave me xanax last trip and it didn't make a dent in calming me down. i just know the plane is going down. a piece of machinery that big should not be made to go in the air. i watch the damn engines vibrate on that poorly welded wing and know one of them is going to drop in the ocean or the dang roof is going to peel open and suck me out into the air at 35,000 feet.

we had a friend who was a pilot from a major airline who is retired, have several friends who travel for work many times per week and they all tell me the same thing. it is the safest thing on earth to do. far more safer than me even taking my 20 minute drive into work. although the pilot did say his worst airport to land in was san diego. sorry, not wanting to panic you san diego folks..anyway, i understand this, i really do, my mind gets it. those are the facts and they are FACTS.

then i can watch castaway or the gray and watch tom hanks and liam neesan crash and burn and all these facts mean absolutely nothing to me and i know the next time i get on the plane this May that i am going to crash and i am going to die a gruesome horrible death.

if i was on this board screaming to everyone that you putting your child on a plane to go to disneyland  (don't even get me started about letting a child go on some of those rides) that that was an unfit parent because planes are so dangerous and so many people have died, you would all be :lmao: at me telling me i am crazy and throwing all these stats out at me saying how safe it is and my chances of dying in a plane crash is just an irrational silly fear. i would still from a factual point understand you, but it would not change my mind that i am going to die the next time i get on a plane.

there are roughly 5 million pit bulls and there have been 27 deaths lastyear. do i need to do the % break down on 27 on 5,000,000. 
This is where I don't understand why anyone would want to own a dog that is capable of committing 27 deaths in one year. My fear comes from the unpredictability of these dogs ... How many dog bites happened last year by pits, and how many of them were serious?

Pits make up about 7% of the dog population, but lead every category in dog bite statistics. If you were going to fly one of these airlines, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2908531/Ranking-world-s-dangerous-airlines-includes-troubled-AirAsia-Malaysia-Airlines-scores-highly-safety.html then I would say your fear isn't irrational. These airlines are banned from flying within the US for good reason. Pits are banned in certain countries, cities etc for good reason. If I were to ride a bike, down a very busy 4 lane highway with a flat tire, I'm significantly increasing my risk of injury or death unnecessarily.

Why own an animal that statistically increases risk of injury or death? vs other dogs that are less susceptible?

 
Is the neighbors pit an intact male?  the link I showed you earlier showed that 94% of dog maulings are from intact males.  If he's fixed, that'll take the chance that he mauls your kid from .00001% to .00000001%

 
Is the neighbors pit an intact male?  the link I showed you earlier showed that 94% of dog maulings are from intact males.  If he's fixed, that'll take the chance that he mauls your kid from .00001% to .00000001%
I don't know. I will check though.

 
beavers said:
This is where I don't understand why anyone would want to own a dog that is capable of committing 27 deaths in one year. My fear comes from the unpredictability of these dogs ... How many dog bites happened last year by pits, and how many of them were serious?

Pits make up about 7% of the dog population, but lead every category in dog bite statistics. If you were going to fly one of these airlines, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2908531/Ranking-world-s-dangerous-airlines-includes-troubled-AirAsia-Malaysia-Airlines-scores-highly-safety.html then I would say your fear isn't irrational. These airlines are banned from flying within the US for good reason. Pits are banned in certain countries, cities etc for good reason. If I were to ride a bike, down a very busy 4 lane highway with a flat tire, I'm significantly increasing my risk of injury or death unnecessarily.

Why own an animal that statistically increases risk of injury or death? vs other dogs that are less susceptible?
hi beavers, i've really enjoyed our conversation the last couple days and believe we both have tried to be respectful to each other. even though we are on opposite sides on this particular matter i always enjoy those types of conversations to try to understand the other persons thinking. i'd like to continue the discussion, but to do so, i'd have to use an analogy of your above post, which i'm guessing you wouldn't like because you will think it is an apples/oranges type thing. i can assure you i do have some small minded point i will try to make :)

if you'd like to carry on, please let me know, and if you don't reply, i'd just like to say i really do believe you have the best interest of your child involved with your thinking and i respect that.

 
El Floppo said:
congrats! the last 24 hours has seen this thread is back on track to being horrible.
we do what we can here Floppo. i have been PMing tim and SIDA to get their thoughts on the topic but have yet to hear back.....

 
This is where I come down on this.  We, society, long ago determined that there are appropriate uses for residential and urban areas, and we were right.  We passed zoning laws, limiting lawful uses to appropriate zones.  We decided some manufacturing uses need removal from residential areas.  We decided agricultural uses and animal husbandry should be kept in rural zones.  We know, understand, and agree that we do not want pig farms near our homes.  We don't want slaughter houses, horse stables, cattle ranches, bull breeding facilities, or tiger rescues next to day care.  We have decided to limit the location of the ownership of even canines to limited areas in some cases (wolfs) and in some cases not at all.

Breed specific legislation is not an attempt to eliminate the breed, just as we don't seek to eliminate tigers or pigs.  Those that state otherwise either have not thought about this clearly or they are deliberately misleading. This is not some sort of attempt to cause the extinction of the breed.  It is a recognition, like we have recognized in so many other instances, that ownership of some animals is irresponsible or undesirable in certain locales.  We have previously determined that there needs to be a balance between the right of one person, on the one hand, to own, breed, use, and have commerce with some animals, and the rights of others to not be adversely impacted by the collateral consequences of danger or nuisance of the first person's rights.  Just as one does not have the right to swing their fist in the space occupied by my nose, and one does not have the right to befoul my air or hearing with the sounds and odors of a pig farm, one does not have the right to impose upon another the collateral ill effects or possibilities of owning a pit bull, or a tiger for that matter.

For those that make the slippery slope argument that if pits are zoned out then so too should  many other breeds be prohibited, that one cannot start with one kind of dog without rationally including other dogs; I would note that we already have done so. You cannot own wolfs or hyenas, and the very concept of a dog is an artificial classification, a construct of man, it is not a class incapable of further logical subdivision.  Some folks will argue that well, we have not previously restricted ownership of domesticated pets from some zones, and I would argue that we don't necessarily have a good definition of domesticated, and that we do restrict domesticated animals of many types, types some would consider pets.

Pits are qualitatively different than most other breeds, even many breeds pit owners try to co-opt to their side of the argument by saying they too should be gathered in to any group a pit is in.  They say if my pit then your shepherd, or dobbie, or rottie.  Of course, even while claiming this they know that their pit could easily defeat any of those breeds in a fight to the death.  They know their breed is different in many regards but for a very select few, often breed from or in attempts to breed for the pit type of characteristics, like say dogo argentino's or presa canarios.  They know their pits are different while arguing they are not.  It is the difference which causes them to choose the pit.  Denial of this is beyond disingenuous, yet they argue frequently that there is no difference, not really.

Now many have argued, and probably correctly, that the danger of pits is greatly exaggerated in the public mind.  That it is ignorance and fear, and misapprehension of risk that causes folks to seek breed specific legislation.  I would not argue that position is wholly wrong.  Our friends and neighbors that own pits do not have defective brains.  Many of their arguments makes sense and should be given their due.  Here's the thing, not all zoning restrictions of animals are passed necessarily solely based upon elimination of danger to life or limb.  Many well recognized use restrictions are based upon providing peace of mind and elimination of nuisance.  They provide comfort of place.  In short the effort to ban pits is not unprecedented in our jurisprudence.   This is not a new thing, or an unreasonable thing.  It is a common compromise so that each may best and most fully possess their own rights with the minimal of infringement on the rights of others.  Sometimes in that balance there are apparent winners, and apparent  losers.

I have no problem with restricting ownership within certain designated areas, so long as there are a reasonable number of areas where such ownership is not prevented.  Here's the rub for me though.  What constitutes a pit, how is that determined?  With what certainty or specificity is the restriction enforced?  What is the nature of proof required for a violation?  What notice is a potential owner required to receive, if any, of the exacting nature of their animal?  Now these matters are capable of definition and proof though DNA testing, but we are talking, potentially, about extreme regulatory imposition, albeit on a small population.  How does one draw this line?  Let's say we agree on what a pit is.  Lets say we include some other terriers.  Lets say we include some other scary or offensive breeds.  Lets say we have done all of that accurately and precisely.  What do we do with half-breeds, quarter-breeds, one eighth, one sixteenth?  There are always going to be, in my estimation, a bit of a definitional and logical quagmire on where the line is drawn. Of course we have accepted such minor arbitrariness in other zoning matters. (For instance we allow only domesticate animals though are somewhat unclear as to whether, for instance that should include ferrets, turtles, snakes and the like since they are not really domesticated, nor are fish, parrots or parakeets.)

In the end we will not obtain perfection of legislation, but we can meet standards long accepted.  

.

 
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Great quote in there....

“Every dog is an individual,” Gorant says. “Pit bulls are just dogs and if they are not raised properly and socialized and treated right, they can have behavior problems. But they aren’t any more problematic than any other breed by nature.”
Why would you like that? It is an incredibly dumb statement to make. Anybody that actually tries to argue that a pit isn't more problematic than a jack russell terrier is a complete moron. While I agree that their temperament is no worse than many breeds and is actually better than many, that is absolutely not the whole equation. Jack Russell terrier attacks you or your kids and you are likely fine. If a Pit bull goes off your kids might be killed. 

By nature they were bred to be brutally tough and do things that other dogs can't or won't do. 

There is no need to make stuff up to make a worthwhile argument to not banning these dogs. I disagree, as do others, but I can at least see some sides of it.

Saying they are just the same as other dogs isn't even discussion worthy. It is one of the dumbest things you could ever say. Please tell me you don't honestly believe that. 

 
Hey guys. Question for the group here. 

I'm looking into installing a new heating system in the house. I figure my family and I like being warm in the winter, so we'll get years of enjoyment out of this. 

I was researching the options. Oil systems have been around for years but there are some environmental issues. Gas heat is widely accepted as a great heating system. We could do that. Or we could get geothermal which is available in our area.

All of these options would satisfy my needs just fine. But I've decided we're gonna go nuclear. I looked into some reactors and some folks are just giving them away, which seems like a total waste, it's kinda sad. 

Besides how bad ### is that!?  I mean, oh hey guy up the street, nice boring heating system you got there  I got NUCLEAR, baby!

Some of my neighbors aren't thrilled about it but, oh hey, guess what, free country, it's my property. I'll put up a fence anyway so it's not like it's a big deal. 

Besides, I think it gets a bad rap. People claim it's not safe but statistically you are more likely to die in a car accident than from a privately-owned nuclear reactor meltdown. The media is so stupid. It finds its scapegoats and then just piles on. You never hear about the gas furnace explosions that kill hundreds of people. WHY IS THAT?  Think about it. 

Anyway, so stoked. Any reason to think this is a bad idea?

 
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Hey guys. Question for the group here. 

I'm looking into installing a new heating system in the house. I figure my family and I like being warm in the winter, so we'll get years of enjoyment out of this. 

I was researching the options. Oil systems have been around for years but there are some environmental issues. Gas heat is widely accepted as a great heating system. We could do that. Or we could get geothermal which is available in our area.

All of these options would satisfy my needs just fine. But I've decided we're gonna go nuclear. I looked into some reactors and some folks are just giving them away, which seems like a total waste, it's kinda sad. 

Besides how bad ### is that!?  I mean, oh hey guy up the street, nice boring heating system you got there  I got NUCLEAR, baby!

Some of my neighbors aren't thrilled about it but, oh hey, guess what, free country, it's my property. I'll put up a fence anyway so it's not like it's a big deal. 

Besides, I think it gets a bad rap. People claim it's not safe but statistically you are more likely to die in a car accident than from a privately-owned nuclear reactor meltdown. The media is so stupid. It finds its scapegoats and then just piles on. You never hear about the gas furnace explosions that kill hundreds of people. WHY IS THAT?  Think about it. 

Anyway, so stoked. Any reason to think this is a bad idea?
and i got crap for comparing the hate and fear of Muslims to the same hate and fear of Pit bulls .....

 
Hey guys. Question for the group here. 

I'm looking into installing a new heating system in the house. I figure my family and I like being warm in the winter, so we'll get years of enjoyment out of this. 

I was researching the options. Oil systems have been around for years but there are some environmental issues. Gas heat is widely accepted as a great heating system. We could do that. Or we could get geothermal which is available in our area.

All of these options would satisfy my needs just fine. But I've decided we're gonna go nuclear. I looked into some reactors and some folks are just giving them away, which seems like a total waste, it's kinda sad. 

Besides how bad ### is that!?  I mean, oh hey guy up the street, nice boring heating system you got there  I got NUCLEAR, baby!

Some of my neighbors aren't thrilled about it but, oh hey, guess what, free country, it's my property. I'll put up a fence anyway so it's not like it's a big deal. 

Besides, I think it gets a bad rap. People claim it's not safe but statistically you are more likely to die in a car accident than from a privately-owned nuclear reactor meltdown. The media is so stupid. It finds its scapegoats and then just piles on. You never hear about the gas furnace explosions that kill hundreds of people. WHY IS THAT?  Think about it. 

Anyway, so stoked. Any reason to think this is a bad idea?
Have you considered the impact on your water bill?  I think personal reactors should only be used in houseboats and boats with living quarters in marinas where one has a ready source of free water for cooling.  Now outside of that I can't really see a problem.

 
I stopped reading right here because I know where this is going. You are definitely getting ripped off Otis. That quote is too high. HTH.
He should consider installing an Ariana Grande for his heating system.  We all know how hot Otis finds her.  Problem is, I hear she is high maintenance.  Still, picture a cold snowy night.  The wind is howling.  Otis and the Mrs. are cuddled on the couch, a bottle of wine open, and they are warming their hands over the glow from Ariana's ###.  Its a ### ####ed Norman Rockwell moment. 

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
is where I come down on this.  We, society, long ago determined that there are appropriate uses for residential and urban areas, and we were right.  We passed zoning laws, limiting lawful uses to appropriate zones.  We decided some manufacturing uses need removal from residential areas.  We decided agricultural uses and animal husbandry should be kept in rural zones.  We know, understand, and agree that we do not want pig farms near our homes.  We don't want slaughter houses, horse stables, cattle ranches, bull breeding facilities, or tiger rescues next to day care.  We have decided to limit the location of the ownership of even canines to limited areas in some cases (wolfs) and in some cases not at all.

Breed specific legislation is not an attempt to eliminate the breed, just as we don't seek to eliminate tigers or pigs.  Those that state otherwise either have not thought about this clearly or they are deliberately misleading. This is not some sort of attempt to cause the extinction of the breed.  It is a recognition, like we have recognized in so many other instances, that ownership of some animals is irresponsible or undesirable in certain locales.  We have previously determined that there needs to be a balance between the right of one person, on the one hand, to own, breed, use, and have commerce with some animals, and the rights of others to not be adversely impacted by the collateral consequences of danger or nuisance of the first person's rights.  Just as one does not have the right to swing their fist in the space occupied by my nose, and one does not have the right to befoul my air or hearing with the sounds and odors of a pig farm, one does not have the right to impose upon another the collateral ill effects or possibilities of owning a pit bull, or a tiger for that matter.

For those that make the slippery slope argument that if pits are zoned out then so too should  many other breeds be prohibited, that one cannot start with one kind of dog without rationally including other dogs; I would note that we already have done so. You cannot own wolfs or hyenas, and the very concept of a dog is an artificial classification, a construct of man, it is not a class incapable of further logical subdivision.  Some folks will argue that well, we have not previously restricted ownership of domesticated pets from some zones, and I would argue that we don't necessarily have a good definition of domesticated, and that we do restrict domesticated animals of many types, types some would consider pets.

Pits are qualitatively different than most other breeds, even many breeds pit owners try to co-opt to their side of the argument by saying they too should be gathered in to any group a pit is in.  They say if my pit then your shepherd, or dobbie, or rottie.  Of course, even while claiming this they know that their pit could easily defeat any of those breeds in a fight to the death.  They know their breed is different in many regards but for a very select few, often breed from or in attempts to breed for the pit type of characteristics, like say dogo argentino's or presa canarios.  They know their pits are different while arguing they are not.  It is the difference which causes them to choose the pit.  Denial of this is beyond disingenuous, yet they argue frequently that there is no difference, not really.

Now many have argued, and probably correctly, that the danger of pits is greatly exaggerated in the public mind.  That it is ignorance and fear, and misapprehension of risk that causes folks to seek breed specific legislation.  I would not argue that position is wholly wrong.  Our friends and neighbors that own pits do not have defective brains.  Many of their arguments makes sense and should be given their due.  Here's the thing, not all zoning restrictions of animals are passed necessarily solely based upon elimination of danger to life or limb.  Many well recognized use restrictions are based upon providing peace of mind and elimination of nuisance.  They provide comfort of place.  In short the effort to ban pits is not unprecedented in our jurisprudence.   This is not a new thing, or an unreasonable thing.  It is a common compromise so that each may best and most fully possess their own rights with the minimal of infringement on the rights of others.  Sometimes in that balance there are apparent winners, and apparent  losers.

I have no problem with restricting ownership within certain designated areas, so long as there are a reasonable number of areas where such ownership is not prevented.  Here's the rub for me though.  What constitutes a pit, how is that determined?  With what certainty or specificity is the restriction enforced?  What is the nature of proof required for a violation?  What notice is a potential owner required to receive, if any, of the exacting nature of their animal?  Now these matters are capable of definition and proof though DNA testing, but we are talking, potentially, about extreme regulatory imposition, albeit on a small population.  How does one draw this line?  Let's say we agree on what a pit is.  Lets say we include some other terriers.  Lets say we include some other scary or offensive breeds.  Lets say we have done all of that accurately and precisely.  What do we do with half-breeds, quarter-breeds, one eighth, one sixteenth?  There are always going to be, in my estimation, a bit of a definitional and logical quagmire on where the line is drawn. Of course we have accepted such minor arbitrariness in other zoning matters. (For instance we allow only domesticate animals though are somewhat unclear as to whether, for instance that should include ferrets, turtles, snakes and the like since they are not really domesticated, nor are fish, parrots or parakeets.)

In the end we will not obtain perfection of legislation, but we can meet standards long accepted.  

.
hi dw, again an excellent well thought out post. i have been running around all day and still have a lot more "chores" to finish up and need to grab a quick workout, but want to touch base on a couple things and hopefully edit it when i have more time. again, excellent post.

addressing your 2nd paragraph:

i am far from an expert from BSL. you may know a lot more than i do. i was and at this time still am under the impression that BSL is in fact about making a breed extinct. using the most well known city, denver for an example. if every state were to implement that type of BSL act, please let me understand how this is not an extinction plan? i am sarcastic by nature, but this is not sarcasm. really don't see how it can be construed  any other way. so, we will say for the point of this discussion, the usa implements denver's BSL ban statewide. what happens to the american pit bull terrier in your opinion?

this is my take: denver bsl plan

now i also read in your closing paragraph that you wouldn't be apposed to the breed being allowed in some select area. there's the rub to me. if you say want to limit cities for ownership and enact your BSL there, i understand that cities have lots more people in a sardine can than joe out in BFE WV. what happens when an incident happens someone in that latter environment?

i've never argued that the pit bull is in a class of a few and not the majority, so really have no questions there. but i have argued exactly that. if you have a large dog capable of killing and inflicting disfigurement and it does so, you and it shouldn't be given a pass because it isn't a certain type of dog. 

in your closing paragraph, you touch on, what constitutes a pit bull. there's another rub. taking the denver BSL again, i believe they have a criteria of certain things and if the animal meets a certain # of those they claim it as a pit bull and confiscate it. if the animal has 1 less than the criteria # it is 10-4 and carry on, nothing to see here. believe there was a case where animal control took 2 dogs from a backyard who weren't doing anything wrong and ended up they weren't pit bulls either.

you know it comes down to, pick out the pit bull from below:

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

from quick reading, and granted it may be from people who have my point of view, so may be taken with a grain of salt, but it appears a lot of city/towns that did have BSL have overturned them already and /or are reviewing the effect.

i still side on the way of portland oregon, but maybe even a tad more strict than below:

Could Denver find a better way of identifying dangerous dogs? Portland, Oregon, a city of similar size, was also the site of a pit bull attack in 1986 that resulted in the death of a child: a five-year-old boy who was fatally mauled in suburban Multinomah County. Like Denver, Portland became embroiled in a debate over how to deal with vicious breeds. Unlike Denver, Portland convened a task force of veterinarians, health officials, animal behaviorists and animal-control officers to study potential animal-control ordinances. Rather than slap a ban on a single breed, the commission recommended that the law be adjusted to allow animal-control officers to take action against the owner of a dog that was displaying certain aggressive behaviors and label the animal a "potentially dangerous dog" before it caused serious injury to a human. As a result, Portland created a model with five levels of severity, starting with any dog, running loose, that "menaces, chases, displays threatening or aggressive behaviors" against a human or other animal. Each level involves potential for a greater punitive action against the owner, as well as certain requirements for the dog. At the highest level, reserved for a dog that's caused serious injury to a person, the animal is to be euthanized, and officials have the additional option of suspending the owner's right to possess a dog.

Portland's law was put into effect in 1986. Five years later, a study found that Portland had classified 1,652 dogs as potentially dangerous. The breed with the most such classifications was the German Shepherd, followed by the pit bull, then the Labrador Retriever and the Doberman. If Portland had simply banned pit bulls after the killing of a child, it might have missed the aggressive German Shepherds. More significant, it might have punished good owners (and dogs) for the sins of the bad. The program also reduced the amount of repeat biters by 257 percent.

again, sorry for a quick type reply to your post, but wanted to get your thoughts?

 
beavers said:
This is where I don't understand why anyone would want to own a dog that is capable of committing 27 deaths in one year. My fear comes from the unpredictability of these dogs ... How many dog bites happened last year by pits, and how many of them were serious?

Pits make up about 7% of the dog population, but lead every category in dog bite statistics. If you were going to fly one of these airlines, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2908531/Ranking-world-s-dangerous-airlines-includes-troubled-AirAsia-Malaysia-Airlines-scores-highly-safety.html then I would say your fear isn't irrational. These airlines are banned from flying within the US for good reason. Pits are banned in certain countries, cities etc for good reason. If I were to ride a bike, down a very busy 4 lane highway with a flat tire, I'm significantly increasing my risk of injury or death unnecessarily.

Why own an animal that statistically increases risk of injury or death? vs other dogs that are less susceptible?


beavers said:
Sure, steelerfan1. Go ahead, and give me your data. But, I'm not sure that you can convince me that owning a pit is much riskier than owning any other dog. You can try though. I won't be on much today as I will be at the bar watching March Madness ... I respect your approach, and have been appreciative of your advice.
hi beavers, i am running around today too. now this is speaking totally for me and how i feel when i use this analogy. may even offend some of the apbt peeps although that is not my intention.

using your above with flying on airlines:

you, mrs beavers and your child are offered a free trip to disneyland: there are 2 planes both painted identical with no airline name. 1 is american airlines and the other is air malasia. you don't know which. are you going to get on a plane for your free trip? 

 
hi dw, again an excellent well thought out post. i have been running around all day and still have a lot more "chores" to finish up and need to grab a quick workout, but want to touch base on a couple things and hopefully edit it when i have more time. again, excellent post.

addressing your 2nd paragraph:

i am far from an expert from BSL. you may know a lot more than i do. i was and at this time still am under the impression that BSL is in fact about making a breed extinct. using the most well known city, denver for an example. if every state were to implement that type of BSL act, please let me understand how this is not an extinction plan? i am sarcastic by nature, but this is not sarcasm. really don't see how it can be construed  any other way. so, we will say for the point of this discussion, the usa implements denver's BSL ban statewide. what happens to the american pit bull terrier in your opinion?

this is my take: denver bsl plan

now i also read in your closing paragraph that you wouldn't be apposed to the breed being allowed in some select area. there's the rub to me. if you say want to limit cities for ownership and enact your BSL there, i understand that cities have lots more people in a sardine can than joe out in BFE WV. what happens when an incident happens someone in that latter environment?

i've never argued that the pit bull is in a class of a few and not the majority, so really have no questions there. but i have argued exactly that. if you have a large dog capable of killing and inflicting disfigurement and it does so, you and it shouldn't be given a pass because it isn't a certain type of dog. 

in your closing paragraph, you touch on, what constitutes a pit bull. there's another rub. taking the denver BSL again, i believe they have a criteria of certain things and if the animal meets a certain # of those they claim it as a pit bull and confiscate it. if the animal has 1 less than the criteria # it is 10-4 and carry on, nothing to see here. believe there was a case where animal control took 2 dogs from a backyard who weren't doing anything wrong and ended up they weren't pit bulls either.

you know it comes down to, pick out the pit bull from below:

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

pit bull? yes or no

from quick reading, and granted it may be from people who have my point of view, so may be taken with a grain of salt, but it appears a lot of city/towns that did have BSL have overturned them already and /or are reviewing the effect.

i still side on the way of portland oregon, but maybe even a tad more strict than below:

Could Denver find a better way of identifying dangerous dogs? Portland, Oregon, a city of similar size, was also the site of a pit bull attack in 1986 that resulted in the death of a child: a five-year-old boy who was fatally mauled in suburban Multinomah County. Like Denver, Portland became embroiled in a debate over how to deal with vicious breeds. Unlike Denver, Portland convened a task force of veterinarians, health officials, animal behaviorists and animal-control officers to study potential animal-control ordinances. Rather than slap a ban on a single breed, the commission recommended that the law be adjusted to allow animal-control officers to take action against the owner of a dog that was displaying certain aggressive behaviors and label the animal a "potentially dangerous dog" before it caused serious injury to a human. As a result, Portland created a model with five levels of severity, starting with any dog, running loose, that "menaces, chases, displays threatening or aggressive behaviors" against a human or other animal. Each level involves potential for a greater punitive action against the owner, as well as certain requirements for the dog. At the highest level, reserved for a dog that's caused serious injury to a person, the animal is to be euthanized, and officials have the additional option of suspending the owner's right to possess a dog.

Portland's law was put into effect in 1986. Five years later, a study found that Portland had classified 1,652 dogs as potentially dangerous. The breed with the most such classifications was the German Shepherd, followed by the pit bull, then the Labrador Retriever and the Doberman. If Portland had simply banned pit bulls after the killing of a child, it might have missed the aggressive German Shepherds. More significant, it might have punished good owners (and dogs) for the sins of the bad. The program also reduced the amount of repeat biters by 257 percent.

again, sorry for a quick type reply to your post, but wanted to get your thoughts?
In response to your post I would start out by stating there has been no effort, as of yet, to ban them by state or across the country.  If one takes a zoning approach to the issue that will not happen until someone can show me that the states or the feds engage in zoning laws.  Even if they did the breed would continue to exist internationally.  Zoning is a local function, a municipal function, a county function, not a state or federal one.

As for me, I have strong libertarian and constitutionalist tendencies.  I am not for regulation if it can be avoided.  Regulation is crude, often over-sweeps, and in so doing lumps the good with the bad if it is broad enough to capture the bad.   Inevitably there are some then, who rightfully resenting their inclusion in the regulated group, who develop less respect for regulations in general and for government.  Sadly, sometimes we must restrain our fellow man, but in my mind only as a last resort.  I do not yet advocate such bans, but I do consider it.  I was merely pointing out that bans are possible and very much  not unprecedented from a zoning perspective.  I was also pointing out, that from my perspective, the arguments as to breed extinction are red herrings, at best.  Finally, I was pointing out the incredible disingenuousness of those who own the breed, full well know their incredible capabilities, and yet argue that they should be considered exactly the same as far less capable dogs when categorizing them, as if we humans are incapable of subcategorizing based on inherent factors.  The very category of canine is a subcategory itself.

Long and short I am on your side due to my political philosophies, but many on your side are so intellectually bankrupt that it is difficult for me to remain there.  I do not include you among those for whom I have intellectual disdain.  In fact I find you a reasonable and fascinating fellow. 

BTW, were I to be induced into championing legislation on this matter consistent with my own predilections it would likely be far less sweeping than bans across entire municipalities.  I would be for advocating stronger laws pertaining to licensing, registration, running at large and would change presumptions as to vicious ordinances such that the one free bite rule so common many places would be changed, at least as to certain breeds and as to certain sizes of animals. Frankly I could see vicious ordinances structured such that there is a rebuttable presumption that some breeds are vicious, absent, say, owners showing that the dog has been obtained from licensed or certified kennels and has received some specific training from licensed and certified facilities.  (My problem with this personally is that again, regulation where maybe none is required.  I am just saying that it could be considered.) When licensing I would include requirements for proof of insurance.  I have yet to see a ban that I could agree with, as written.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
In response to your post I would start out by stating there has been no effort, as of yet, to ban them by state or across the country.  If one takes a zoning approach to the issue that will not happen until someone can show me that the states or the feds engage in zoning laws.  Even if they did the breed would continue to exist internationally.  Zoning is a local function, a municipal function, a county function, not a state or federal one.

MY RESPONSE IN BOLD: this is where I am ignorant and appreciate your explanation of a zoning/state/fed law type thing. your "as of yet" is where i get concerned.  there are a lot of folks/groups who would be in favor of the total state by state breed ban. I think by just viewing this thread you can see the pure hate that people have for this breed. 

As for me, I have strong libertarian and constitutionalist tendencies.  I am not for regulation if it can be avoided.  Regulation is crude, often over-sweeps, and in so doing lumps the good with the bad if it is broad enough to capture the bad.   Inevitably there are some then, who rightfully resenting their inclusion in the regulated group, who develop less respect for regulations in general and for government.  Sadly, sometimes we must restrain our fellow man, but in my mind only as a last resort.  I do not yet advocate such bans, but I do consider it.  I was merely pointing out that bans are possible and very much  not unprecedented from a zoning perspective.  I was also pointing out, that from my perspective, the arguments as to breed extinction are red herrings, at best.  Finally, I was pointing out the incredible disingenuousness of those who own the breed, full well know their incredible capabilities, and yet argue that they should be considered exactly the same as far less capable dogs when categorizing them, as if we humans are incapable of subcategorizing based on inherent factors.  The very category of canine is a subcategory itself.

Long and short I am on your side due to my political philosophies, but many on your side are so intellectually bankrupt that it is difficult for me to remain there.  I do not include you among those for whom I have intellectual disdain.  In fact I find you a reasonable and fascinating fellow. 

MY RESPONSE IN BOLD: we really do share a lot of the same viewpoints regarding regulation.  

I'd like to address your quote here and probably will go more into detail when I continue the discussion with beavers. I'd also like to mention this is just my thoughts on the matter. the thoughts expressed here are not endorsed or consented upon by footballguys.com. "incredible disingenuousness of those who own the breed, full well know their incredible capabilities, and yet argue that they should be considered exactly the same as far less capable dogs when categorizing them"  I believe that due to the huge popularity jump of this breed in a relatively short time period that a lot of people purchase these dogs without knowing anything about them other than he sure is a pretty blue color.

addressing another quote if I may..."Long and short I am on your side due to my political philosophies, but many on your side are so intellectually bankrupt that it is difficult for me to remain there.  I do not include you among those for whom I have intellectual disdain.  In fact I find you a reasonable and fascinating fellow."

again, I do agree believe we do share a lot of the same views on the issue.  I believe there are probably equal amounts of people on both sides lacking funding in the intellect department of you smell what I'm cooking... I am going to pm you my phone number if you could call and inform my wife on that last sentence I do believe I will owe you a beer. 

BTW, were I to be induced into championing legislation on this matter consistent with my own predilections it would likely be far less sweeping than bans across entire municipalities.  I would be for advocating stronger laws pertaining to licensing, registration, running at large and would change presumptions as to vicious ordinances such that the one free bite rule so common many places would be changed, at least as to certain breeds and as to certain sizes of animals. Frankly I could see vicious ordinances structured such that there is a rebuttable presumption that some breeds are vicious, absent, say, owners showing that the dog has been obtained from licensed or certified kennels and has received some specific training from licensed and certified facilities.  (My problem with this personally is that again, regulation where maybe none is required.  I am just saying that it could be considered.) When licensing I would include requirements for proof of insurance.  I have yet to see a ban that I could agree with, as written.

MY RESPONSE IN BOLD: and yet again, I feel we are close here. I have yet to see something that makes total sense to me in fairness. I really do wish there were a lot less people who owned this breed of dog. it's sad to me that the fast jump in popularity/fascination with this breed has led to the UNpopularity of this breed...isn't it ironic...don't you think.... 

thanks again for your continued input here.

 
from that story.

Heather Wise · 

Customer Care Agent at GovX

I live a mile down the road from where this happened. It was the parents' fault. The dog (regardless of breed) has never been around children. The parents forced him to interact with the kid. He got uncomfortable and snapped, the baby just happened to be in the way. The death is the parents' fault, not the dog's.

 
As a dog lover and former owner of an purebred Amstaff and a pit/lab mix, I will unequivocally say these dogs don't need to exist.  If someone said they were no longer legal in my area, I'd be OK with that.  

If raised properly and well trained, they can be lovely companions.  That said, there are too many people that don't train or socialize their dogs properly.  Although bad owners are an issue with any breed, the repercussions for breeds like this can be too high.  They physically do too much damage when something goes wrong.  

 
As a dog lover and former owner of an purebred Amstaff and a pit/lab mix, I will unequivocally say these dogs don't need to exist.  If someone said they were no longer legal in my area, I'd be OK with that.  

If raised properly and well trained, they can be lovely companions.  That said, there are too many people that don't train or socialize their dogs properly.  Although bad owners are an issue with any breed, the repercussions for breeds like this can be too high.  They physically do too much damage when something goes wrong.  
Hello, and welcome to the thread.  It's refreshing when -- every now and again -- someone with facilities in reason stops by and says something sensible.  Come back again soon. 

 
Hello, and welcome to the thread.  It's refreshing when -- every now and again -- someone with facilities in reason stops by and says something sensible.  Come back again soon. 
welcome to the ''Donald Trump thinks all Mexicans are murders and rapists '' thread

 
This nonsense needs to STOP. First off, the term "pit bull" is not an actual breed name. A "pitbull" is essentially a street name used that makes up four breed -- the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog. The stereotype around "pitbulls" comes from unfit owners using them for an improper reason. Any dog is what you make it. There are false myths that say "pitbulls" can't feel pain, they have locking jaws, etc. which are all utter nonsense. In temperament tests, "pitbulls" have actually tested better than German Shepherd's and Golden Retrievers! People fail to realize that most dogs attack because they are provoked. I have owned many, many dogs, and many "pitbulls" as well. A dog just doesn't 'snap' for no reason, they will always hint that they're about to snap. Out of all my dogs I have owned, my American Pit Bull Terrier that I currently own has been the nicest dog I have ever had. There is a negative connotation because of stupid people in the ghetto using dogs (NOT just "pitbulls") to fight. Any dog is what you make it...It's just like a child...how you raise it is how it will be. Unfit owners are the problem, not the breed. 

Watch this and do your own research before you listen to ever last piece of nonsense that flows through your television...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Cqn4ZZ660 

 
This nonsense needs to STOP. First off, the term "pit bull" is not an actual breed name. A "pitbull" is essentially a street name used that makes up four breed -- the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog. The stereotype around "pitbulls" comes from unfit owners using them for an improper reason. Any dog is what you make it. There are false myths that say "pitbulls" can't feel pain, they have locking jaws, etc. which are all utter nonsense. In temperament tests, "pitbulls" have actually tested better than German Shepherd's and Golden Retrievers! People fail to realize that most dogs attack because they are provoked. I have owned many, many dogs, and many "pitbulls" as well. A dog just doesn't 'snap' for no reason, they will always hint that they're about to snap. Out of all my dogs I have owned, my American Pit Bull Terrier that I currently own has been the nicest dog I have ever had. There is a negative connotation because of stupid people in the ghetto using dogs (NOT just "pitbulls") to fight. Any dog is what you make it...It's just like a child...how you raise it is how it will be. Unfit owners are the problem, not the breed. 

Watch this and do your own research before you listen to ever last piece of nonsense that flows through your television...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Cqn4ZZ660 
Hello, and welcome to the thread.  It's refreshing when -- every now and again -- someone with facilities in reason stops by and says something sensible.  Come back again soon. 

 

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