BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I feel like the community has been shifting back from four to six the last few years. Just curious where we are at these days.
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Your League Passing TD - 4 or 6 points? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BobbyLayne
- Start date
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
6 in all my leagues.
With full PPR, it helps to balance for sure
With full PPR, it helps to balance for sure
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That wasn’t an option!5
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
I was just talking about this one with some leaguemates last night. As a commish, I'm digging in on 4 even though I fully understand that going to 6 would have the desirable effect of helping QB values. If a top QB is expected to do it at least 30-35 times to be considered a satisfactory season, and if a RB/WR/TE doing it 10 times might very well represent a career year, I can't stomach rewarding passing TDs and rushing/receiving TDs the same value.
I completely get why leagues are going there. In a couple of weeks, my league will see the top names in the sport get drafted in round 3 in our 1QB league. My hope is to push the conversation towards a super-flex, even though there's definite challenges with that format in a 14-team league.
I completely get why leagues are going there. In a couple of weeks, my league will see the top names in the sport get drafted in round 3 in our 1QB league. My hope is to push the conversation towards a super-flex, even though there's definite challenges with that format in a 14-team league.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
5
I have good news for you
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
If your league switched from 4 to 6, do you know why?
In our league we're trying to level out QB value. For several years it's been running/mobile QBs dominated the Top 8 or so.
In our league we're trying to level out QB value. For several years it's been running/mobile QBs dominated the Top 8 or so.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
6 but we discount yardage somewhat. Rewards QBs on the better offenses and lowers the value of junk yards that don't turn into TDs.
Minimal affect on QB value - Other than that one or two outlier that throw for 40+ TDs in a season, there is almost always just a bunch of QBs in the 24-30 TD range. But, even if we count the outliers, we're looking at a range of 16 TDs separating the #1 QB in passing TDs from the #16 QB over the course of a season. That works out to less than a 2 PPG difference from 4 point TDs between the #1 QB and the #16 QB, with the vast majority of them lumped together that the difference is negligible.
If increasing QB value is the desire, without increasing their scoring in other ways that essentially make them score so many points that we are playing fantasy QB each week (point per completion or increasing points for passing yardage), then 2 QB (for smaller sized leagues) or superflex (for larger leagues) are more efficient ways of adjusting that value, but even those are not without their flaws, especially since in most leagues QBs score so much more than other positions that superflex becomes essentially a 2 QB league, unless other adjustments are made so that each position is scoring a similar number of points so that non-QB positions are competitive options for the superflex.
If increasing QB value is the desire, without increasing their scoring in other ways that essentially make them score so many points that we are playing fantasy QB each week (point per completion or increasing points for passing yardage), then 2 QB (for smaller sized leagues) or superflex (for larger leagues) are more efficient ways of adjusting that value, but even those are not without their flaws, especially since in most leagues QBs score so much more than other positions that superflex becomes essentially a 2 QB league, unless other adjustments are made so that each position is scoring a similar number of points so that non-QB positions are competitive options for the superflex.
Chaka
Footballguy
What is the argument in favor of giving pocket passers an edge over dual threat QBs? For example why punish Jalen Hurts in favor Derek Carr?
It will change the order in which QBs are drafted, which is as good a reason as any to switch I guess.
But it doesn't do much to improve value of the QB position as a whole relative to other positions. So Brady still may be available in the 6th round (or whatever) in a standard 1QB league draft.
If you want to increase the value of the QB position relative to other positions the only way is to create scarcity, which makes super-flex (or 2QB) leagues the way to go.
Great thread. Love these kinds of discussions.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Well the evolution was early 2000s Why are we putting so much emphasis on drop back QBs? Draft Peyton or Brett, see ya in the finals.
The league has evolved, the position has changed, to the point where a Brady or Cousins or Rodgers or Stafford is the exception. Pretty much top 7 are all mobile/runners, right?
Anyway, I'm not making arguments one way or another, not advocating anything. Merely making observations about macro trends within the FF Community.
jon007
Footballguy
In my league, I went a little different. I found that 6 points per TD were just too much for an individual score. What I did was try and make the TD a team score but give bonus points for individual play. This has leveled the playing field better than before.
All TDs are 4 points
I have 0.15 points per completion and rush attempt.
0.33 PPR
40+ yard plays 1 pt bonus
40+ yard TD play 1 pt bonus
This makes the TD more of a team stat but gives bonuses to big plays or plays that make sense to award a 6-point TD on.
All TDs are 4 points
I have 0.15 points per completion and rush attempt.
0.33 PPR
40+ yard plays 1 pt bonus
40+ yard TD play 1 pt bonus
This makes the TD more of a team stat but gives bonuses to big plays or plays that make sense to award a 6-point TD on.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Agree that the most common scoring settings put a non-QB superflex option at a distinct disadvantage compared to most QB2s. To make a superflex work, I believe it's imperative that the scoring between a mid-level QB2 gets leveled out to something that's closer to that of a mid-level W/R/(probably not TE) FLEX2.
Some thoughts I had for accomplishing this in our 14-team league, which is an added challenge compared to 12-teams:
1) Change our .5 PPR to .5PPR + .5 points per rushing/receiving first down. I'm staunchly opposed to a full PPR, but I think first down scoring would be a nice addition. The one fly in the ointment here is that it gives just one more small advantage to the running QBs compared to pocket passers. But for the most part this would give a big boost to TE, WR, and RB scoring.
2) This one is pretty aggressive and off the beaten path, but I think there's a case for changing interceptions from -2 points to -4 points. Think about it this way, a 20 TD season is pedestrian for a QB. However, a 20 interception season might very well mean your career is over unless you have 40+ TDs to your name to offset it. Basically, a real-life NFL an interception is a bigger negative for a QB than a passing TD is a positive; a 1:1 ratio isn't going to cut it. Given this reality, why do most fantasy leagues only punish interceptions as a -2 or even -1, and award +4 or +6 for a passing TD? For my league that awards +4 passing TDs, I think there's a case that an interception should fully offset a passing TD, making them -4 points instead of -2.
The threat of a mediocre QB2 throwing a couple of picks on a 1TD-2INT line would definitely make that non-QB FLEX option more viable. Hence, making superflex a more balanced affair where the team that has their QB2 on bye (or injured) isn't at an extreme disadvantage to the team with a mid-tier QB2.
The counter-argument to -4 interceptions would be, shouldn't lost fumbles also increase to -4 points? You can make a case that they should and it probably is imbalanced for interceptions and lost fumbles not to be equal. Personally, I'm okay with leaving lost fumbles alone and accepting the variation as a necessary means to an end if a balanced super-flex is important enough to your league.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I think it's less about giving pocket passers an unfair edge over dual threat QBs, and more about NOT giving dual threat QBs as much of an unnatural edge against pocket passers.
Jalen Hurts' redraft ADP is ahead of Dak Prescott, Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Stafford, and Derek Carr. He is a far inferior QB to all of them. The current scoring system doesn't properly value dual threat QBs. It massively overvalues them.
Chaka
Footballguy
I see that but Brady, Wilson, Rodgers, Stafford etc are much more valuable to their teams than virtually every non-QB in the NFL but in 1QB leagues they regularly fall to rounds 6 or later.
That seems to be just as bad of a logical fallacy, worse actually, than bumping Hurts because he can run.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I know someone in a league where total yards are combined, thus no extra bonus for running QBs.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
Both for me. I'm used to 4 pt passing in my redraft league but the dynasty league I joined is 6pt which I didn't quite appreciate correctly at first...
I like the idea of making it more closely resemble "real football" value. It's going to take me a little while to really have my head around to value players correctly. Dominant QBs in this 1QB league have a big edge.
I like the idea of making it more closely resemble "real football" value. It's going to take me a little while to really have my head around to value players correctly. Dominant QBs in this 1QB league have a big edge.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'm not sure we're disagreeing here. I'm just saying that making pass TDs worth more isn't "punishing" Jalen Hurts via the scoring system. It's just lessening the "punishment" guys like Brady, Stafford, etc have with the scoring system, which makes more sense since it more accurately reflects the player's real life value.
It just kind of happened that the scoring system ended up giving running QBs a huge unrealistic advantage in FF because the scoring system was designed at a time where there weren't really any running QBs to consider. It was an accident. It wasn't like it was by design that someone sat down and thought "Hmmmm we should make crappier real life NFL QBs be worth more than good real life QBs in fantasy football, how can I design this scoring system so below average NFL QBs that are on the cusp of being replaced can have greater fantasy value than the greatest passing QB in NFL history?".
It was an accident, and moving that back towards the middle a little bit isn't "punishing" guys like Jalen Hurts. It's just slightly lessening the silly accidental scoring advantage they already have.
Chaka
Footballguy
I completely understand. I am just not on board with the reasoning behind devaluing Hurts. If it's because real world counterparts like Brady & Stafford are better QBs, then why ignore that logic as it relates to every position?
If there were a real NFL draft of every active player right now, QBs would probably be the first 20 picks, maybe more. But the majority of fantasy leagues marginalize QBs completely. The only point is if that's okay, I don't see why Hurts having more value than Brady is a big deal.
fightingillini
Footballguy
All my leagues are superflex and have 4 points per TD pass.
titusbramble
Footballguy
Mine are half and half
Mookie
Footballguy
My league is 6 pts for all TDs, but we have this stupid rule that an interception (-2 pts) that gets returned for a TD is -6pts, so a pick six is really -8! We've had many matchups decided because of that dumb rule and I gripe about it every year to the point where I get laughed at. Local leagues are so fun.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Redraft league with 1 QB: ours is 4 pts. I don't like it because there are times when you're playing against an opponent that has a receiver your QB just threw a touchdown to. Seems dumb to have a situation where your QB's TD pass hurts you.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
To be fair, even with 6 point passing TDs the receiver is going to get more points for every pass they catch than the QB, including TDs.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
So +6 -vs- -8 on passing plays resulting in TD. The -8 total for a returned pick six is a bit aggressive for me. Personally, I'm an advocate for a pretty substantial punishment on throwing a pick 6 because that's a giant negative play in the actual game.
We do +4 passing TDS. -2 interceptions. -2 if the interception is returned for TD. So basically, a +4 (plus yards) if your QB throws a TD. -4 points if it's a TD in the "wrong" direction. Seems fair enough to me. In defense of your league's settings, one could argue that throwing a pick 6 is a bigger sin that shouldn't be offset by throwing one passing TD. But I get your frustration, that -8 is a giant pitfall.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Agreed but sometimes that point differential is not that big of a deal (i.e. a 5 yard TD pass). On the other hand every TD pass is a minimum +2 for the receiver/RB, pretty significant.
It isn't a big enough deal to make a stink about it but it is annoying as hell when you're watching your QB throw TD passes to your opponent's receiver or running back
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Theoretically, let's say that your QB only throws to this one WR for the entire game. Your QB throws for 200 yards and 2 TD. The other WR records 200 receiving yards for 2 TDs. Between the QB and the WR, one of the two had a significantly better fantasy (and real life) performance, right? Probably even more so than any advantage in yardage scoring (assuming 8/10 points to the QB vs 20 to the WR).
Receiving / rushing TDs & yards are much more scarce than passing TDs and yards. I will always be on the side of scoring them accordingly, but I definitely get what you're saying and why many leagues went in that direction. It's frustrating when it happens to you. Strangely enough, when it's your WR catching the pass from their QB, the disparity seems to make more sense for some reason
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
What needs to happen in start 1QB leagues is make the position important enough that they are not an afterthought and are tradable. Too many start 1qb leagues make the position almost worthless, in that everyone has a decent one and some have multiple elite QBs and can't trade one for anything decent. The position should be made important enough and in line with elite players at other positions. I believe this is the reason why SF leagues became so popular. Their thinking is that if the QB position is the most important position in the NFL, it should be in fantasy. I don't share that belief, but I do believe too many start 1qb leagues devalue the position too much and it all starts with only giving 4 points for a passing TD. I think the optional value of a QB should be 6 points for a passing TD, increase the value of passing yardage, and only give -1 for an INT instead of -2, or don't penalize INTs.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Personally, I think it all started with PPR. Probably the most flawed scoring construct that's ever been introduced into the game. I tolerate the scoring dysfunction of .5 PPR. It's just as illogical as full PPR scoring, but half as destructive.
For any league that adopted full PPR, I can understand why there would be no other option than to make passing TDs the same value as rushing/receiving TDs to preserve some value for the QB position. It makes sense from "a TD is a TD" logic. It doesn't make any sense from scarcity logic. Obviously, it's pretty split so there's clearly merits on both sides of the aisle of 6 vs 4. I don't think that 15-of-26 leagues in this poll playing 4-point passing TDs qualify as antiquated fantasy football / relics. More than likely, it's holding firm on scarcity principle when it comes to scoring logic.
I like that you're advocating increasing passing yardage in conjunction with 6 point passing TDs. What do you think is ideal? Logically, shouldn't each passing yard be equal to each rushing/receiving yard in a scoring system that treats each passing TD the same as a rushing/receiving TD?
I will add that I do think it's a shame what has happened to QB valuations in 1QB leagues, in both full PPR and 1/2 PPR. I personally come down on the side that a balanced Superflex is the ideal solution.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
my biggest problem with penalizing interceptions more is that MANY MANY times it is not the QB's fault.....
Mookie
Footballguy
It makes sense when it's a bonehead pass into the flat, but when its a downfield pass that hits the WR in the face and then ricochets into the hands of a DB being chased by three 380 lb OTs, -8 feels kind of harsh.
Chaka
Footballguy
Changing from 4 to 6 points per passing TD only rearranges the order in which QBs are drafted, it does not change their value relative to each other so it shouldn't have a significant impact on when, or how many QBs come off the board. You can still get a decent one late and you can still roster two elite QBs and not get much in trade value.
If you start up a new SF league inevitably people with think there should be a huge run on QBs in round one, that's a common mistake and it frustrates people new to SF. Play in a SF for 26 years, like my league and you see that on average there are 4-5 QBs, 4-5 RBs and 2-3 wrs and 0-1 TEs that come off the board in round one. That's a great balance because it means you can build a championship opening with any skill position player.
I honestly don't understand the logic of devaluing the most important position in real football. You don't share that belief and I would love to understand why. I have heard many defenses of that position but ultimately they all seem to truly come down to "We have always done it that way."
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Yeah, -8 definitely would suck in instances when there's zero fault on the QB. Even when it is on the QB, should the difference between a Pick Six and the defender running the ball back inside the 5 yard line be the difference of 6 points to your QB's score? That's a bit steep to me.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
It's a fair point. Certainly, there are interceptions that aren't on the QB and it's worthy of consideration if you're looking to do something somewhat unorthodox, like an enhanced -4 penalty for interceptions. First, I think you have to consider how many of these "injustices" are there likely to be over the course of a season. A somewhat interception-heavy year for your QB is probably something in the neighborhood of 15. How many of these 15 interceptions is there going to be no fault at all on the QB? I would guess probably "a few". From there, probably a few more where there's some fault, but more blame lies on a WR or O-line.
On the other side of the spectrum, you have passing TDs. Probably hoping to have at least 25-30 of these. How many of these are works of art? How many are underthrown or errant balls where the receiver makes a great play? Probably a few. Even when the QB executes, is a play-action TD to a wide open TE from the 1-foot line created equal to a 25-yard rope to the back corner of the endzone? One is worth 4.04 and the other 5.0 points, is that a perfectly aligned scoring system that accurately reflects what actually happened on the NFL field? No, it's a season full of trade offs that more or less wash out in the end.
There's always going to be injustices in fantasy scoring. When you're drafting a RB, you're also drafting the entire O-line and really, the entire offense (even defense) to create fertile fields for fantasy production. It's really the same for a QB and whether or not they have time to throw and whether the WR makes the catch or it clanks off their hands and is promptly returned for a pick six. You could argue that the RB isn't getting hit with a -4 deduction when he gets buried in his backfield for poor run blocking, but they're also not getting the same volume of scoring opportunities that a QB will see over the course of the season.
To be clear, I'm not an advocate of -4 interceptions just for the heck of it. This is more of a concession that I would be willing to accept to make the expected points for the RB35 or WR46 somewhat competitive with the QB22, thus making Superflex viable in my 14-team league.
jtd13
Footballguy
I mostly play SF, but I like 6pts for TDs and -4 for interceptions because it's been the most effective way I've seen of promoting high value on the actual good QBs while not pumping up the value of just every QB. Typical -1 or -2 pts for interceptions still leaves you jamming any QB you can find into the SF slot.
-4 will actually have you considering whether throwing in a guy like Daniel Jones or Jameis Winston in his crazy high turnover year over a flex RB or wr is a good idea.
-4 will actually have you considering whether throwing in a guy like Daniel Jones or Jameis Winston in his crazy high turnover year over a flex RB or wr is a good idea.
Chaka
Footballguy
What penalties are assessed for players when they fumble? Anything for when a receiver runs the wrong route causing an interception?
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Love this take. Some people confuse more points with more value. Want to increase QB value in a 1QB league? Just turn off interception penalties. WRONG! Fantasy value comes when the top scorers are able to separate themselves from the middle and bottom tier alternatives. So while it's true that Aaron Rodgers' point total is coming down if you increase the interception penalty from -2 to -4, guess what? It's coming down more for Lamar Jackson, Tannehill, Carr and really everyone else who wasn't A-Rodg last year. The wider the gap in expected score between the top QBs and the 12th-14th, the more value the top QBs have, and the higher they go in the draft.
To put it another way, you could award Kickers 100 fantasy points for every game they play such that Justin Tucker is the top scorer in all of fantasy, it does nothing to change kicker values. However, when we started penalizing kickers -1 for missed kicks, it actually made the top kickers slightly more valuable than their streaming counterparts.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Is anyone deducting points from a WR running the wrong route in a league with -1 or -2 point deductions for interceptions?
We have one league where it is -2 for missed X-points. Wasn't a big deal when the kick was a 20 yarder, but a little more meaniful now. Actually decided a championship game 2 years ago. Tough way to lose a title game
Judge Smails
Footballguy
6 points all TD’s. Non PPR
Snoopy
Footballguy
Some leagues deduct for lost fumbles.
This touches on one of the points in my earlier reply - scoring can be made such that even if there is no major value adjustment, it gets so extreme that we are essentially playing fantasy X position. In your example (obviously an extreme), if all other scoring was standard but kickers got 100 point per made FG, then it basically comes down to whose kicker scores more that week, even though over the course of a season there is not a ton of difference.
A more realistic example that I've seen is leagues that give points per completion. In this particular league, the top RBs scored maybe 250 points in a season, meanwhile QBs were scoring 600+ points in a season. It truly made it so that the only thing that mattered was whose QB had the better week. It was near impossible to make up those points even if you outscored the other team at every other position.
It's about finding that fine line that creates a gap in QB scoring. The hard part is that other than the elite few, and the crappy few, they all put up very similar stats - 10 QBs went over 4000 yards last season (Matt Ryan just missed the cutoff), and then other than Brady and Stafford with 43 and 41 TDs, the next 7 guys were with in 5 TDs of each other (38-33). There's not a lot that can be done via scoring system to create value at the position without completely throwing the balance of a fantasy league off.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Pretty even split.
I think we'll stay at 4 point per passing TD but will bring it up for discussion/vote.
I think we'll stay at 4 point per passing TD but will bring it up for discussion/vote.
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