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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (1 Viewer)

Abrantes said:
:shrug:  Weird #### and all, this might be the show's best season to date. Definitely the best pacing at least.
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The pacing has been implausible. They've gone from telling a detailed, many faceted story to wrapping things up as quickly as possible. There's been a decent amount of shoddy writing, some pretty eye rolling stuff this season, mostly just to get things from set piece A to set piece B. Actually it applied to last season too a bit - the whole blow up the sept with all the people we no longer have ongoing plot points from Martin for with no repercussions is about as lazy as it gets.

 
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Gr00vus said:
I'm thinking the contrived sortie north to play zombie round up is just an excuse to establish who Azor Ahai is. They've been heavy handed enough with the "I don't know what it is, but I have some purpose" thing with Dondarrion, so he'll be involved as a sacrifice somehow, Thoros can do the resurrection/transference thing to help rebirth someone as Azor-Ahai. I figure it'll be Jon, but other semi-likely candidates are there as well (Sandor, Gendry, maybe Jorah). I thought Jamie might have been a candidate too, but he's not around.
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Then again, on its surface, this mission seems more closely related to Nan's Last Hero story. Which would be bad news for everyone on the trip except Jon - including Ghost if/when he shows up.

 
Gr00vus said:
The pacing has been implausible. They've gone from telling a detailed, many faceted story to wrapping things up as quickly as possible. There's been a decent amount of shoddy writing, some pretty eye rolling stuff this season, mostly just to get things from set piece A to set piece B. Actually it applied to last season too a bit - the whole blow up the sept with all the people we no longer have ongoing plot points from Martin for with no repercussions is about as lazy as it gets.
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I'd say nearly every other season suffered from uneven pacing at best. This one has been consistently dynamic. Even the first season, which was the most faithful to the books, only really got going around episode 5.

I'll leave the detailed, many-faceted approach to the books, which go to the turgid extreme of things. I realize that many fans of the books are tearing their hair out at the changes, but I feel they more than make up for the missteps, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. YMMV

 
Gr00vus said:
I'm thinking the contrived sortie north to play zombie round up is just an excuse to establish who Azor Ahai is. They've been heavy handed enough with the "I don't know what it is, but I have some purpose" thing with Dondarrion, so he'll be involved as a sacrifice somehow, Thoros can do the resurrection/transference thing to help rebirth someone as Azor-Ahai. I figure it'll be Jon, but other semi-likely candidates are there as well (Sandor, Gendry, maybe Jorah). I thought Jamie might have been a candidate too, but he's not around.
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In the books, Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife by killing her with his own sword. I think something similar would need to happen. I can envision the group unable to capture a wight and someone sacrifices themselves to make a wight. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
In the books, Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife by killing her with his own sword. I think something similar would need to happen. I can envision the group unable to capture a wight and someone sacrifices themselves to make a wight. 
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Yeah, that's why I posted my follow on about Nan's Last Hero story seeming more related to this latest venture.

If they do the light bringer thing, who do you think gets the sword buried in her chest? Mellisandre? Sansa? Couldn't be Danaerys could it?

 
Abrantes said:
If I can love the LOTR movies in spite of what they did to Faramir, then I certainly have it in me to love GoT in spite of whatever I feel they might've gotten wrong.  :hophead:
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I couldn't do it. Not just because of Faramir, there was so much I couldn't get past with those. It's not so bad here. They started out well. It's just lately they've been going a bit Michael Bey.

 
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Gr00vus said:
The pacing has been implausible. They've gone from telling a detailed, many faceted story to wrapping things up as quickly as possible. There's been a decent amount of shoddy writing, some pretty eye rolling stuff this season, mostly just to get things from set piece A to set piece B. Actually it applied to last season too a bit - the whole blow up the sept with all the people we no longer have ongoing plot points from Martin for with no repercussions is about as lazy as it gets.
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I liked the post in the other thread where somebody posted that the show has turned more into a summer blockbuster.  Nothing wrong with a show doing that, but it does feel at odds with what they were doing in the first part of the series.  I felt season 3 of GoT would have given us a great emotional payoff of Tyrion/Jamie after years apart and him learning the truth that Tyrion at least didn't kill Joff.  We probably would have gotten Jaime captured again mirror his situation in Riverrun, and a couple episodes of him and Tyrion interacting before they release him back to Cersei.  (Not that I personally want to spend more time with him) but we spend more time on Sam's quest to Oldtown than we do there, and in that time he cures a disease in one treatment that others haven't in years and just happens to steal the correct books he needs. 

I understand the pace needs to pick up and we need to get to the end, I just personally wish that they would at least wrap up stuff that they were building up before a bit better.  I think we had more time with Gendry and Davos than we did with Tyrion and Jamie last episode. 

 
Gr00vus said:
The pacing has been implausible. They've gone from telling a detailed, many faceted story to wrapping things up as quickly as possible. There's been a decent amount of shoddy writing, some pretty eye rolling stuff this season, mostly just to get things from set piece A to set piece B. Actually it applied to last season too a bit - the whole blow up the sept with all the people we no longer have ongoing plot points from Martin for with no repercussions is about as lazy as it gets.
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Its tougher to drag things out the closer we get to the end.  Less room to maneuver. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
In the books, Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife by killing her with his own sword. I think something similar would need to happen. I can envision the group unable to capture a wight and someone sacrifices themselves to make a wight. 
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There are theories that Dany is the Nissa Nissa to Jon's Azor Ahai, but it's unlikely to play out on this particular trip.  That's endgame stuff.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
There are theories that Dany is the Nissa Nissa to Jon's Azor Ahai, but it's unlikely to play out on this particular trip.  That's endgame stuff.
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That would be brutal. Very Martin. So I'm kind of hoping it goes down that way.  :stirspot:

Then again, I'd like to see Martin to avoid Chekov's gun somewhat. I wouldn't mind some things not being foreshadowed via story, hints, prophecies.

Either way, I still trust the guy to make it interesting.

 
Gr00vus said:
That would be brutal. Very Martin. So I'm kind of hoping it goes down that way.  :stirspot:

Then again, I'd like to see Martin to avoid Chekov's gun somewhat. I wouldn't mind some things not being foreshadowed via story, hints, prophecies.

Either way, I still trust the guy to make it interesting.
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It would be very GRRM. I think I have mentioned before (in this thread) that I wouldn't be surprised if Jon, Dany, the Dragons, The Wall, The Others, magic, Bran, Tyrion and all the other major players are dead with Rickon being the sole Stark survivor. Martin doesn't write Hollywood endings. He writes satisfying, bittersweet endings. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
It would be very GRRM. I think I have mentioned before (in this thread) that I wouldn't be surprised if Jon, Dany, the Dragons, The Wall, The Others, magic, Bran, Tyrion and all the other major players are dead with Rickon being the sole Stark survivor. Martin doesn't write Hollywood endings. He writes satisfying, bittersweet endings. 
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Pretty sure Rickon is out of play in the show though. ;)

 
Gr00vus said:
The pacing has been implausible. They've gone from telling a detailed, many faceted story to wrapping things up as quickly as possible. There's been a decent amount of shoddy writing, some pretty eye rolling stuff this season, mostly just to get things from set piece A to set piece B. Actually it applied to last season too a bit - the whole blow up the sept with all the people we no longer have ongoing plot points from Martin for with no repercussions is about as lazy as it gets.
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Disagree on the sept thing as (IIRC) everyone in there had an organic reason for being there. It wasn't like some dude they wanted to get rid of rode into town from the North and was just like "Hell...I'm going to go over to the sept to see what the deal with all them people is" two minutes before the sept blew up.  

I do wonder what would have happened if Lancel caught that kid or was able to blow out the candle.....as its eems kind of dumb to hinge a mass murder of that magnitude on that on the abilitites of a 6 year old.....

 
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I think people are overestimate how interesting Books 4 and 5 were.  They're good.......but I don't think there's a lot there that would have held the interest of the non book reading show watcher.  To that, the shows ratings/prestige might have suffered....putting them in a similar position that the are in now, that being....rushing to get done. 

 
In hindsight, Dorne and Euron/Pyke/Yara should have probably been scrapped....or significantly pruned.  I don't think anything has come out of Dorne(post Oberyn) other than Mycella dying (fueling more rage in Cersei) and a great set of boobs. It's blasphemy to say that they didn't need the boobs in the show....but they didn't even need Jamie/Bronn to go to Dorne....all they needed was Mycella to get put on a boat and a reveal that it was Ellaria who was there and kissed her when she got on.  

That works even if they wanted to include Ellaria this season as an ally of Dany.  

Pyka/Yara/Euron didn't need to happen.  Nothing has come out of the Iron Islanders joining with Dany (other than the impressive shot from last season conveying the idea that Dany won't/can't be stopped....something that they wasted time this season squashing) and their story seems to be more about redemption for Theon than anything else. 

Both of those regions feature more heavily in the books....and I guess the showrunners thought we should be getting a taste of the books plots for those regions......but they haven't added anything to the main story. 

 
Thunderlips said:
I think people are overestimate how interesting Books 4 and 5 were.  They're good.......but I don't think there's a lot there that would have held the interest of the non book reading show watcher.  To that, the shows ratings/prestige might have suffered....putting them in a similar position that the are in now, that being....rushing to get done. 
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I don't object to the edits to those books. I'm a little bummed that seasons 6-8 of the show are not making much effort to flesh out the Cliff Notes version of whatever story Martin is/was intending to tell in books 6 and 7. 

 
thecatch said:
I don't object to the edits to those books. I'm a little bummed that seasons 6-8 of the show are not making much effort to flesh out the Cliff Notes version of whatever story Martin is/was intending to tell in books 6 and 7. 
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I'm just trying to figure out how all this plays in the books.....

 
Is there any chance that even if thing wacky adventure north of the wall is a success in bringing a walker to Cersei that it will even change her tone enough to help?

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
Yep will give her time to scheme and kill danny.....tyrion and/or varys are going to flip on her....it's coming
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I guess it depends on what they are asking.  If it is just a truce while others take care of the problem, then I agree.  If they are asking for any sort of help/troops, I say 0 chance, and I guess that is what I was asking. 

Basically, Cersei is more than happy sitting back and letting the walkers and others kill as many of each other as possible and then deal with what is left somehow. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
If they are asking for any sort of help/troops, I say 0 chance, and I guess that is what I was asking.
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Correct, she doesn't really have an army to give at this point. She's basically lost the entirety of the Lannister army and will have to hire out to defend Kings Landing. She's almost a non-factor in the war of the Kingdoms right now. Even with the magic teleporter, how quick do you think she can buy an army and get them in place to be effective? Drogon could burp a few times on King Landing and take the place at this point.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Is there any chance that even if thing wacky adventure north of the wall is a success in bringing a walker to Cersei that it will even change her tone enough to help?
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That's the silliest part of it to me. You'd think Tyrion would know Cersei well enough to realize she'll try to use the situation to her advantage no matter what.

 
beer 30 said:
Correct, she doesn't really have an army to give at this point. She's basically lost the entirety of the Lannister army and will have to hire out to defend Kings Landing. She's almost a non-factor in the war of the Kingdoms right now. Even with the magic teleporter, how quick do you think she can buy an army and get them in place to be effective? Drogon could burp a few times on King Landing and take the place at this point.
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Her being able to even buy an army at this point is a joke. What sellsword is going to join up to fight 3 dragons and the Dothraki .  Money is worthless to dead men.

 
beer 30 said:
Correct, she doesn't really have an army to give at this point. She's basically lost the entirety of the Lannister army and will have to hire out to defend Kings Landing. She's almost a non-factor in the war of the Kingdoms right now. Even with the magic teleporter, how quick do you think she can buy an army and get them in place to be effective? Drogon could burp a few times on King Landing and take the place at this point.
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So it makes even less sense why Dany gives a F about what she thinks. Just march in there and replace her. Dumb. 

 
Capella said:
So it makes even less sense why Dany gives a F about what she thinks. Just march in there and replace her. Dumb. 
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Yeah, it has got to be to the point where what few troops Cersei has are probably ready to drop their swords.  They don't need to unleash the dragons or Dothraki, they probably could just march the army she inherited from this last victory to KL and overthrow her.  Sure she still has Euron, but how much of a force can she really have around the capital? 

Has she replenished the Wildfire supplies yet? That might be the only obstacle (oh yeah, and The Mountain).

 
KarmaPolice said:
Is there any chance that even if thing wacky adventure north of the wall is a success in bringing a walker to Cersei that it will even change her tone enough to help?
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In terms of plot, I think the goal there would be that by bringing proof to Cersei you also bring it to Jamie. There's a final falling out that is going to happen between them, adding another wedge in regard to what to do about the impending white walker doom would bring things closer to that. It seems highly likely that Jamie will have to complete his redemption arc by playing "kingslayer" one more time for the good of the realm/humanity. They just ratcheted up the tension/tragedy by introducing Cersei's pregnancy this week.

 
The other thing they seem to be telegraphing is that Sam now has a shot at claiming the Tarly lordship, and would then be able to bring the remaining Tarly troops (and perhaps other parts of the armies of the Reach) north. This would both help in the fight against the white walkers and also remove another support from Cersei. I find it difficult to believe the Iron Bank would lend Cersei the money to do anything at that point - they probably won't lend her money even as things stand now. Has she actually paid off the previous loan, or does she still have the money they took from Highgarden?

 
Gr00vus said:
In terms of plot, I think the goal there would be that by bringing proof to Cersei you also bring it to Jamie. There's a final falling out that is going to happen between them, adding another wedge in regard to what to do about the impending white walker doom would bring things closer to that. It seems highly likely that Jamie will have to complete his redemption arc by playing "kingslayer" one more time for the good of the realm/humanity. They just ratcheted up the tension/tragedy by introducing Cersei's pregnancy this week.
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Very good points, plus it involves Tyrion more for extra drama since it was his idea, and I would assume he would be present if they are successful in bringing this thing to Cersei.  It's basically Cersei/baby or Tyrion/realm that Jaime is going to have to choose between.

 
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Gr00vus said:
The other thing they seem to be telegraphing is that Sam now has a shot at claiming the Tarly lordship, and would then be able to bring the remaining Tarly troops (and perhaps other parts of the armies of the Reach) north. This would both help in the fight against the white walkers and also remove another support from Cersei. I find it difficult to believe the Iron Bank would lend Cersei the money to do anything at that point - they probably won't lend her money even as things stand now. Has she actually paid off the previous loan, or does she still have the money they took from Highgarden?
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I hadn't thought of that, but even though he's been doing the hibbity dibbity with Gilly, he still has his Black vows looming, so doesn't that mean he can't claim the lordship?  I could see him using his name and sword to get more troops to the cause but assume he can't and won't take over his lands.  Of course after this war is all over, there might not be any Black Brothers or anybody else to care about the rules that used to govern the realm. 

I also assume that the IB will not be backing Cersei after this defeat and would hope that they are smart enough to get the gold first, and then tell her that fact. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Very good points, plus it involves Tyrion more for extra drama.  It's basically Cersei/baby or Tyrion/realm that Jaime is going to have to choose between.
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I think that's how things are being set up, regardless of the success of the great zombie rodeo. It makes Jamie's quote at the ending of the first episode of the first season a question rather than a declaration - "the things I do for love" - bringing the story full circle. He revisited that quote again last season. It's not coincidence - he'll be tested again.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I hadn't thought of that, but even though he's been doing the hibbity dibbity with Gilly, he still has his Black vows looming, so doesn't that mean he can't claim the lordship?  I could see him using his name and sword to get more troops to the cause but assume he can't and won't take over his lands. 
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He'll speech it out, in that golly gee way Sam has, and somehow get things done. It's not about owning the Tarly lands, just getting more troops up north and away from Cersei. Probably Gilly tries to take up for him, that doesn't work, and then Sam's mom/sister jump in to convince people to follow him.

 
Gr00vus said:
He'll speech it out, in that golly gee way Sam has, and somehow get things done. It's not about owning the Tarly lands, just getting more troops up north and away from Cersei. Probably Gilly tries to take up for him, that doesn't work, and then Sam's mom/sister jump in to convince people to follow him.
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:thumbup:

Also forgot they would be around and actually kinda like Sam.  I could see him stopping home if he learns about the Tarly shish kabob last week.  I guess he could hear the news at an inn or something. 

 
Again, I am blurring the two mediums, so I will ask here:  In the show have there been any mention of the horn or magics that can penetrate the wall?  Wasn't that what Mance was after in the books? 

 
Edd, Gren, and Sam find a horn wrapped up with the dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men, but I don't recall mention of the Horn of Joramun by Mance or the other wildlings.  And I don't recall a big deal ever being made of that horn.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
Edd, Gren, and Sam find a horn wrapped up with the dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men, but I don't recall mention of the Horn of Joramun by Mance or the other wildlings.  And I don't recall a big deal ever being made of that horn.
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:thumbup:

A buddy asked a question about if something else could bring down the wall, and I could remember if they established anything on the show. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Again, I am blurring the two mediums, so I will ask here:  In the show have there been any mention of the horn or magics that can penetrate the wall?  Wasn't that what Mance was after in the books? 
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Nothing ever on the horns in the show. There is a cut line of dialogue from the first episode this season that the internet made a huge deal about. Don't click if you don't want to know:

When the Hound is staring into the fire and sees the Wall, East Watch by the Sea and the Army of the Dead marching, there was an additional line of dialogue that was cut where he says "the waves are frozen" or something to that effect.

Since the line was cut its hard to know if they are still going that route or just didn't want to ruin the surprise.

 
renesauz said:
Speaking of Ghost....no way Jon would have left him behind on this outing
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I guess we are supposed to assume Ghost is back at Winterfell helping guard Sansa? Not that we have seen in him in forever.

 
Sam can't send the Tarly army north. The Tarly army was with the Lannister army taking High Garden and I'm assuming the bulk of them went back with the wagon train, leaving a few behind to garrison High Garden. I find it unlikely that there are any Tarly troops left. 

 
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