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Housing While Black (1 Viewer)

Fennis said:
jamny said:
What does the thread title, Housing While Black, mean anyway?
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I saw an article with that in the title and thought it was both funny and relevant: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/d...ef=mpstoryemailIt is a take off of DWB (Driving While Black). It is a term that black people (and others) use to describe the fact (or the perception) that they are pulled over by the police more frequently than white drivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black
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:rolleyes: Thanks for clearing that up.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I'll try this once again since I was asked.The police are responding to an unsubstantiated report of a break in by two, count them two black males. They arrive on scene and see a front door that has, even according to the Professor been forced and the lock broken such tha tthe professor is calling for a repair. The Cop, still alone now has substantiation of the initial report. maybe he does have burglers, you know, criminals with maybe burgler tools like pry bars, screw drivers, scree and glass cutters, or weapons, the tools of the trade so to speak. The cop looks in and sees a man with a story. The cop wants to identify the man. For officer safety he wants the man to step outside where if he is a burgler he will be undable to maybe grab a gun, knife, or pry bar he had secreted around the home as the officer approached. This is within the officer's training and within the law to issue this lawful order. Remember too that there is another man loose that the oficer is concerned with. The house may be a trap where he can get killed. The Professor gives him lip. He gets loud, belligerent, and is uncooperative. He failed to obey a lawful order. This is a crime in many jurisdictions, though I do not know about Mass. He is loud, offensive, disruptive and is delaying identifying persons and even locating the second person, a very dangerous act.If this happened in Colorado he absolutely would have beeen charged and I would suggest had he fought the charge he would have lost had I been his prosecutor, though before i prosecuted this i would have tried to dismiss the matter after a teachable moment.Now, was this necessary. I do not think so. The officer has discretion and not every misdemeanor has to be charged. Even had it been charged would I have wanted the officer to take the gentleman into custody, no. Again there the officer has discretion. There is an expression we sometimes use. It is contempt of cop. A few officers choose, when they sense contempt of cop, to not exercise their discretion to reflect the best traditions of their departments which are, of course, to protect and to serve. As a prosecutor I never liked these officers as they make everyone's job more difficult. Yes the Professor got heated and was a jackass, and technically he committed a crime, but it was not much of a crime. Good policing here, good explanations, restraint of emotions could have resolved the matter without charges or ugliness. The Professor had a world view and an agenda. He was also an old man and a tired traveler dealing with a frustrating situation. Sometimes you have to let folks blow of a little steam. The officer could have stepped back for his safety, kept eyes on, waited for backup, let the ,man blow a little, and then have reengaged. I would grade the officers efforts here a B up until the arrest and because of that a C. This was not A level work by any means.
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Thanks DW. That's pretty much what i've been saying all along.By no means is Gates not part of the problem in this situation. His actions escalated the situation. However, the police officer also escalated the situation and exercised some pretty poor judgment in cuffing Gates, bringing him down to the station, and processing him. Not a smart move IMO. Officers need to protect and serve, and part of that service is to their direct employers, the police department. The officers failed in this respect because their actions cast a poor light on their department.People get fired in the private sector all the time for bringing bad press on their employers.
 
Fennis said:
Nigel said:
At what point in the incident do you believe race became a factor?
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From the very start race was a factor. Gates distrust of the police is because of race. Maybe his neighbors not knowing him was (thats pure speculation I have no way of knowing). The cops experiences dealing with black people is a factor. Gates reaction to the police at this door. The cops reaction to seeing a black man in a large home. Race was not the only factor, maybe not even the primary factor some of the time, but it was always a factor.
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This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
 
StrikeS2k said:
jamny said:
Has Obama apoligized yet?
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No, but he "clarified" his comments:
SHAKER HEIGHTS, Ohio – The White House said Thursday that President Obama does not regret saying that the police “acted stupidly” in their arrest of the Harvard scholar, Henry Louis Gates Jr., last week in Cambridge, Mass., a dispute that has touched off a discussion about racial profiling in America.

As Mr. Obama traveled to Ohio to promote his health care agenda, his spokesman told reporters that president did not lament his unusually blunt comments made during a press conference Wednesday evening at the White House. But the spokesman sought to clarify the remarks, according to a pool report from Air Force One.

“Let me be clear: he was not calling the officer stupid, O.K.?” said Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary. He said the president was simply saying that “at a certain point the situation got far out of hand, and I think all sides understand that.”

Mr. Obama has not spoken to Mr. Gates about the matter, Mr. Gibbs said.

The president is scheduled to participate in a town meeting here in Shaker Heights, a suburb of Cleveland. Aides said they did not expect Mr. Obama to address the arrest during the afternoon appearance here.
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http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07...mbridge-police/
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:bs:
 
Christo said:
This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
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We will get past it, because of this fact: while there are reasonable people on both sides of issues like these, the vast majority of us do not believe a person is superior or inferior based upon skin color. Black people have faced hundreds of years of slavery, plus a hundred years of Jim Crow, plus less than 50 years of equal treatment under the law which is in theory but not always in practice. They're simply not going to look at things in the same way white people do. But with more time, I predict they will. Certainly I believe in 50 years from now these sort of tensions will be a thing of the distant past.
 
Christo said:
Fennis said:
Nigel said:
At what point in the incident do you believe race became a factor?
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From the very start race was a factor. Gates distrust of the police is because of race. Maybe his neighbors not knowing him was (thats pure speculation I have no way of knowing). The cops experiences dealing with black people is a factor. Gates reaction to the police at this door. The cops reaction to seeing a black man in a large home. Race was not the only factor, maybe not even the primary factor some of the time, but it was always a factor.
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This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
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There is no single reason why we'll never get past race in this country.
 
Sure, we are to believe that the police asked him for ID, he showed it to them and they proceeded to arrest him, only because he is black.

That really sounds believable.

Furthermore, Obama wasn't there, he didn't know the facts, yet he claimed the police acted stupidly. A more reasonable response on his part would have been to defer commenting on it until after he DID know all the facts.

I guess the teleprompter was programmed correctly.

 
boots11234 said:
Your a racist. Period. Bet when you were born pappa wrapped you in white sheets. :pokey: That being said, stats dont lie, your dad comes home every night because of his racist beliefs. :)
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:ph34r: I explicitly said I thought that view wasn't racist. But I had a professor when I was in college who said we were all at least a little bit racist, it's the degree and how we handle it that make the real difference. I think I agree with that.

And thanks for caring about my Dad. But he does mostly office work now, in fact he took my mom and his granddaughter to Florida this week. That trip is more dangerous, for all involved, than anything he's done on the force in years.

 
Rush Limbaugh adds some fuel to the fire:

Last week we saw white firefighters under attack by agents of Obama. This week we get white police under attack by Obama himself.

 
Fennis said:
Christo said:
Fennis said:
Nigel said:
At what point in the incident do you believe race became a factor?
Click to expand...
From the very start race was a factor. Gates distrust of the police is because of race. Maybe his neighbors not knowing him was (thats pure speculation I have no way of knowing). The cops experiences dealing with black people is a factor. Gates reaction to the police at this door. The cops reaction to seeing a black man in a large home. Race was not the only factor, maybe not even the primary factor some of the time, but it was always a factor.
Click to expand...
This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
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There is no single reason why we'll never get past race in this country.
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No, this is it.
 
Voltaire said:
boots11234 said:
Your a racist. Period. Bet when you were born pappa wrapped you in white sheets. :pokey: That being said, stats dont lie, your dad comes home every night because of his racist beliefs. :)
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:ph34r: I explicitly said I thought that view wasn't racist. But I had a professor when I was in college who said we were all at least a little bit racist, it's the degree and how we handle it that make the real difference. I think I agree with that.

And thanks for caring about my Dad. But he does mostly office work now, in fact he took my mom and his granddaughter to Florida this week. That trip is more dangerous, for all involved, than anything he's done on the force in years.
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When you get a chance, please thank your dad for his service.
 
Voltaire said:
But I had a professor when I was in college who said we were all at least a little bit racist, it's the degree and how we handle it that make the real difference. I think I agree with that.
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Now there's a sweeping generalization for you...
 
kutta said:
I wonder how opinions would change on both sides if we had video of this encounter.
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It might clarify things, but not necessarily. I remember very clearly that during the Rodney King affair, many people supportive of the police in Los Angeles saw that video quite differently from those who supported King.
 
Christo said:
Fennis said:
Christo said:
Fennis said:
Nigel said:
At what point in the incident do you believe race became a factor?
Click to expand...
From the very start race was a factor. Gates distrust of the police is because of race. Maybe his neighbors not knowing him was (thats pure speculation I have no way of knowing). The cops experiences dealing with black people is a factor. Gates reaction to the police at this door. The cops reaction to seeing a black man in a large home. Race was not the only factor, maybe not even the primary factor some of the time, but it was always a factor.
Click to expand...
This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
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There is no single reason why we'll never get past race in this country.
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No, this is it.
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Well, then I am glad one fragment of my post could be so illustrative.
 
kutta said:
I wonder how opinions would change on both sides if we had video of this encounter.
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It would in some respects, but I'm not sure how much.We've gotten the general idea and people have decided very quickly how they choose to interpret it. It's become a race issue when there's no evidence of it at all.Our own President gave strong opinions of it with pretty much no information.Seems like it would make a difference, but it probably wouldn't. People aren't too concerned with information making a decision on this matter.
 
According to a policeman I am watching on Fox, it is not a crime to be discourteous or to yell things from your own home. He says the penal law is very clear: in order to be arrested for disorderly conduct, you need to be in a public place. Since Gates did not leave his porch, it was clearly not a public place.

However, another policeman is disagreeing with him, suggesting that if the man yells from it's porch, it becomes a public place. Not sure I understand that.

 
timschochet said:
According to a policeman I am watching on Fox, it is not a crime to be discourteous or to yell things from your own home. He says the penal law is very clear: in order to be arrested for disorderly conduct, you need to be in a public place. Since Gates did not leave his porch, it was clearly not a public place. However, another policeman is disagreeing with him, suggesting that if the man yells from it's porch, it becomes a public place. Not sure I understand that.
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I imagine if you shout loudly enough, it creates disorder in the public areas surrounding the home, which is probably why the officer noted the reactions of the passers-by on the sidewalk.
 
If you respond to a report of breaking and entering and the person in the house proves they are the home owner, you move on and give the guy some leeway if he's upset about being accused of breaking into his own home. Simple as that. But many cops are power hungry and want to display their authority. I don't think this is a racial issue. It's an issue of police ego.

 
Gadfly said:
If you respond to a report of breaking and entering and the person in the house proves they are the home owner, you move on and give the guy some leeway if he's upset about being accused of breaking into his own home. Simple as that. But many cops are power hungry and want to display their authority. I don't think this is a racial issue. It's an issue of police ego.
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Now THAT is more of a possibility.
 
Gadfly said:
If you respond to a report of breaking and entering and the person in the house proves they are the home owner, you move on and give the guy some leeway if he's upset about being accused of breaking into his own home. Simple as that. But many cops are power hungry and want to display their authority. I don't think this is a racial issue. It's an issue of police ego.
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That's very logical way of looking at this.It doesn't seem to occur to the good Dr. Gates, the media, and some of the FFA, that it's possible that the cop both shouldn't have made the arrest and also is NOT a racist.
 
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pollardsvision said:
It doesn't seem to occur to the good Dr. Gates, the media, and much of the FFA, that it's possible that the cop both shouldn't have made the arrest and also is NOT a racist.
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really?that seems to be the consensus in here. have you been polling the FFA in a different thread?
 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
pollardsvision said:
It doesn't seem to occur to the good Dr. Gates, the media, and much of the FFA, that it's possible that the cop both shouldn't have made the arrest and also is NOT a racist.
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really?that seems to be the consensus in here. have you been polling the FFA in a different thread?
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Just noticing that race seems to be big topic regarding this issue, when there's absolutely no evidence of it. A simple wrongful arrest on a very minor charge in which the officer made a borderline call and, by all accounts, was very respectful wouldn't spark a 15-page thread.There are many here that can see this clearly though, so the word "much" is probably inaccurate.
 
pollardsvision said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
pollardsvision said:
It doesn't seem to occur to the good Dr. Gates, the media, and much of the FFA, that it's possible that the cop both shouldn't have made the arrest and also is NOT a racist.
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really?that seems to be the consensus in here. have you been polling the FFA in a different thread?
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Just noticing that race seems to be big topic regarding this issue, when there's absolutely no evidence of it. A simple wrongful arrest on a very minor charge in which the officer made a borderline call and, by all accounts, was very respectful wouldn't spark a 15-page thread.There are many here that can see this clearly though, so the word "much" is probably inaccurate.
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Race is always a factor.Deal with it.J
 
Jim11 said:
Gadfly said:
If you respond to a report of breaking and entering and the person in the house proves they are the home owner, you move on and give the guy some leeway if he's upset about being accused of breaking into his own home. Simple as that. But many cops are power hungry and want to display their authority. I don't think this is a racial issue. It's an issue of police ego.
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Now THAT is more of a possibility.
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Here are some quotes from the officer from an interview:My second question was, "Is there anybody in the home with you?" And again, my reasoning is not to get into his personal business, but he may not know that there are people who broke into house. I wanted to know is there anybody else home. Are you here by yourself. And again, outward appearances when I first laid eyes on the professor, to me, in my mind, I'm thinking he doesn't look like somebody that would break into a house. I wasn't certain. But his responses to my routine inquires about would you step outside and talk to me for my safety and my inquiry about is there anybody else in the residence. Not just what he said to me, but the tone in which he said it, just seemed very peculiar. Even more so now that I know how educated he is.Q: At what point did he seem iritated or agitated to you, after you ask him is there someone else in the house, or even before that?From the time he opened the door, it seemed that he was very upset, he was very put off that I was there in the first place, which seemed peculiar to me.Q: Why did you arrest him Jim?He was arrested after following me outside the house, continuing the tirade even after being warned multiple times, probably a few more times that the average person would have gotten.Q: How many times?I believe, well, he was cautioned in the house meaning, you know, calm down, lower your voice. Once we got outside in front of the general public and the police officers are assembled there, 2 warnings. The second warning was with me holding a set of handcuffs in my hands. And it's something I really didn't want to do, but the professor at any point of time could have resolved the issue by quieting down and/or going back in his house.There are so many things in this incident that just keep me scratching my head, wondering how somebody, and as I said I apologize that I just was not aware who professor Gates was. And when I read the name off the (Harvard) card it wasn't like I said, "Oh, now that's professor Gates." I'm still just amazed that somebody of his level of intelligence could stoop to such a level, and berate me, accuse me of being a racist, racial profiling, and speaking about my mother. It's beyond words.
 
suspected said:
The Z Machine said:
kutta said:
I wonder how opinions would change on both sides if we had video of this encounter.
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We probably would have been jealous at the swanky free house Dr. Gates gets from Hahvahd.
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I'll bet you one dollar that if we took the professor out of his swanky house and put him through police academy training, that he'd make an unlawful arrest within 6 months.
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It may very well be true that Gates lacks the temperament to be a police officer. (I'm assuming you mean an arrest along the lines of his own -- i.e., arresting somebody for being a disrespectful, boorish punk [even though it's legal]. And I'm not saying that the officer who arrested Gates lacks a proper temperament, although I do think he made a mistake.)I'm not sure how much that matters, though, since he isn't one.
 
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Furious Styles said:
"I support the president of the United States 110 percent. I think he was way off base wading into a local issue without knowing all the facts as he himself stated before he made that comment," Crowley told WBZ-AM. "I guess a friend of mine would support my position, too."
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Support the president 110% is racist code for I hate that SOB.
 
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...

And wow did Obama handle this situation poorly lastnight....

 
Max Power said:
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...
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Because saying "yo mama" is illegal, or for some other reason? If the latter, what is the other reason?
 
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jamny said:
Fennis said:
jamny said:
What does the thread title, Housing While Black, mean anyway?
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I saw an article with that in the title and thought it was both funny and relevant: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/d...ef=mpstoryemailIt is a take off of DWB (Driving While Black). It is a term that black people (and others) use to describe the fact (or the perception) that they are pulled over by the police more frequently than white drivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black
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:goodposting: Thanks for clearing that up.
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FYI there's also DWA: Driving While Asian, but it involves drifting, sudden lane changes, not watching where you're going, and driving slow in the fast lane, rather than getting pulled over by cops.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...
Click to expand...
Because saying "yo mama" is illegal, or for some other reason? If the latter, what is the other reason?
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seems to be disorderly conduct
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No, it's not.
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not to get in to some endless go around with ya, I'm just curious how how you think the following scenario would play out...Say Joe Bryant starts a FFA tread called Where is a good place to drink while in Chicago?

And I respond with "your mamma is a good place to drink"

Am I getting a timeout from the board?

now obviously I know timeouts and arrests are two different things...But whats the call in that situation?

 
snitwitch said:
jamny said:
Fennis said:
jamny said:
What does the thread title, Housing While Black, mean anyway?
Click to expand...
I saw an article with that in the title and thought it was both funny and relevant: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/07/22/d...ef=mpstoryemailIt is a take off of DWB (Driving While Black). It is a term that black people (and others) use to describe the fact (or the perception) that they are pulled over by the police more frequently than white drivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_While_Black
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:yes: Thanks for clearing that up.
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FYI there's also DWA: Driving While Asian, but it involves drifting, sudden lane changes, not watching where you're going, and driving slow in the fast lane, rather than getting pulled over by cops.
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So what do we call it that I have been questioned by police for driving in a black neighborhood when I am white? I know that they suspected that I was there to purchase drugs, but since I told them in a calm manner, after showing my id, my purpose for being in the area, they let me continue on my way. But I have no doubts in my mind that I was pulled over because I was white.
 
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...
Click to expand...
Because saying "yo mama" is illegal, or for some other reason? If the latter, what is the other reason?
Click to expand...
seems to be disorderly conduct
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No, it's not.
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not to get in to some endless go around with ya, I'm just curious how how you think the following scenario would play out...Say Joe Bryant starts a FFA tread called Where is a good place to drink while in Chicago?

And I respond with "your mamma is a good place to drink"

Am I getting a timeout from the board?

now obviously I know timeouts and arrests are two different things...But whats the call in that situation?
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I love watching regular guys trying to interpret laws. :bag:
 
The homeowner acted like a jerkoff and got treated like one.

So easy to pass judgement on a police officer confronting a possible B&E by himself.

 
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...
Click to expand...
Because saying "yo mama" is illegal, or for some other reason? If the latter, what is the other reason?
Click to expand...
seems to be disorderly conduct
Click to expand...
No, it's not.
Click to expand...
not to get in to some endless go around with ya, I'm just curious how how you think the following scenario would play out...Say Joe Bryant starts a FFA tread called Where is a good place to drink while in Chicago?

And I respond with "your mamma is a good place to drink"

Am I getting a timeout from the board?

now obviously I know timeouts and arrests are two different things...But whats the call in that situation?
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I don't know if you'd get a timeout. But you wouldn't get convicted of a crime. You wouldn't even get arrested unless an arresting cop acted unlawfully. Because saying "your mama" isn't illegal.So back to my original question -- we should all be able to agree that if someone gets arrested for saying "your mama," it's for some reason other than having committed a crime. So what's the other reason?

 
Christo said:
Fennis said:
Nigel said:
At what point in the incident do you believe race became a factor?
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From the very start race was a factor. Gates distrust of the police is because of race. Maybe his neighbors not knowing him was (thats pure speculation I have no way of knowing). The cops experiences dealing with black people is a factor. Gates reaction to the police at this door. The cops reaction to seeing a black man in a large home. Race was not the only factor, maybe not even the primary factor some of the time, but it was always a factor.
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This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
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Pssst, we won't get past race because some people don't want us to. They need something to complain about, an excuse, they enjoy being the victim.Not all, but some, enough to make a difference.

Pretty sure some are here.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...
Click to expand...
Because saying "yo mama" is illegal, or for some other reason? If the latter, what is the other reason?
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seems to be disorderly conduct
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No, it's not.
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I don't know the disorder conduct laws but it seems, to me, safe to assume that a younger, poorer person that behaved the way the professor allegedly acted towards a cop could reasonably expected to wear a pair of cuffs and be taken down to the station to cool down. It's not a nationwide news story. Hell, in a college town, it's just a thursday night.I don't know if it fits the exact definition of disorderly conduct, but it's not unreasonable.It's absolutely not racist or racial profiling, as the professor alleges and Obama implied.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Max Power said:
Umm I think the point is that once you say "yo mamma" to a police officer, you are going to spend a little time thinking that over at the station...
Click to expand...
Because saying "yo mama" is illegal, or for some other reason? If the latter, what is the other reason?
Click to expand...
seems to be disorderly conduct
Click to expand...
No, it's not.
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I don't know if you'd get a timeout. But you wouldn't get convicted of a crime. You wouldn't even get arrested unless an arresting cop acted unlawfully. Because saying "your mama" isn't illegal.So back to my original question -- we should all be able to agree that if someone gets arrested for saying "your mama," it's for some reason other than having committed a crime. So what's the other reason?
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I think most people here would agree that the main reason he was arrested was for being a doosh to the cop in front of a crowd and the officer's peers. When you disobey a police officer and then top it off by disrespecting him loudly in front of a gathering crowd, you should expect shoddy treatment. And if the officer is threatening to arrest you while you are doing this, it is safe to assume that he will follow thru on his threat.
 
Harry Manback said:
Christo said:
Fennis said:
Nigel said:
At what point in the incident do you believe race became a factor?
Click to expand...
From the very start race was a factor. Gates distrust of the police is because of race. Maybe his neighbors not knowing him was (thats pure speculation I have no way of knowing). The cops experiences dealing with black people is a factor. Gates reaction to the police at this door. The cops reaction to seeing a black man in a large home. Race was not the only factor, maybe not even the primary factor some of the time, but it was always a factor.
Click to expand...
This, and this alone, is why we'll never get past race in this country.
Click to expand...
Pssst, we won't get past race because some people don't want us to. They need something to complain about, an excuse, they enjoy being the victim.Not all, but some, enough to make a difference.

Pretty sure some are here.
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Based on our President's behavior in this matter, he seems to want to make sure racial tensions stay high. Unless, he's not very bright, but that's certainly not th case. This is a man who normally chooses his words very carefully. It's hard to imagine that this situation is very different.
 
The Big Guy said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
I don't know if you'd get a timeout. But you wouldn't get convicted of a crime. You wouldn't even get arrested unless an arresting cop acted unlawfully. Because saying "your mama" isn't illegal.

So back to my original question -- we should all be able to agree that if someone gets arrested for saying "your mama," it's for some reason other than having committed a crime. So what's the other reason?
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I think most people here would agree that the main reason he was arrested was for being a doosh to the cop in front of a crowd and the officer's peers. When you disobey a police officer and then top it off by disrespecting him loudly in front of a gathering crowd, you should expect shoddy treatment. And if the officer is threatening to arrest you while you are doing this, it is safe to assume that he will follow thru on his threat.
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Dude, he's black. He should be immune because otherwise it's racism.
 
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