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Cleveland Browns (16 Viewers)

No No NO, I am not in any way denigrating what Al Williams has to say. I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you. I have GG for that.

I actually respect your opinion. But in my profession there are always counterarguments you have to consider. Our deposed GM Ray Farmer

was apparently a football guy, who probably set the franchise back 5 years with his trades and acquisitions because he new better than his scouts




 
Here is the thing with SOBO.  He does know his stuff, he really does know technical aspects of offensive line play and he studies tape so he knows his stuff and he does the homework.  I respect the hell out of his knowledge and listen when he shares knowledge.  However,  even with his knowledge SOBO isn't always right.  He tends to be overly aggressive in arguing certain opinions declaring a player that he wanted was or is playing much better than a player that someone else wanted even when that isn't true and he dismisses evidence that is counter to his opinion.  

Last year is a classic example.  He wanted the DT Brown that NE got and didn't want Danny Shelton and was ripping Shelton before the first preseason game and praising Brown before the season began.  Way too soon to make any declarative statements.  When glaring mistakes of Brown were pointed out he would dismiss mistakes and highlight the splash plays and whenever Shelton made a great play SOBO would aggressively point out any mistakes he made.  It was like he HAD to be right since he had dug his heels in.  He knew Brown was used totally different in Belichick's scheme where he was asked to penetrate and make splash plays and not take on double and triple teams that Pettine had Shelton doing so SOBO.  No acknowledgment of the different schemes, anything he could use to force his argument, SOBO used because he dug his heels in and had to be right.  His followers who haven't his knowledge and who don't do the homework tend to follow his lead on being overly aggressive in defending SOBO's takes.  

The season began and Shelton was starting and wasn't great but was 'ok' but SOBO pointed out every mistake.  Brown was not starting and when he played he was erratic and made glaring mistakes but he'd make flash plays and SOBO would highlight the flash plays and overlook the glaring mistakes of Brown.  SOBO had a biased slanted  opinion and forced his agenda and instead of using his knowledge to teach and empower others to learn what he knows he would use his knowledge to sway people to become followers where he is the guru.  So I take the good with SOBO.  I went and checked out what he had to say on Decker and he has not dug his heels in at this point.  He also hasn't dug his heels in on Conklin and he even said he would go back and rewatch tape so he may side with Al Williams and others on Conklin.

Al Williams is a guy I respect and one of the reasons is because of Von Miller.  Al was a staunch supporter of the Broncos to take Von Miller in that draft long before others.  Al played OLB/DE in the NFL, he knows pass rushers like SOBO knows offensive lineman.  I remember hearing AL Williams nearly cry when the Broncos took Von Miller live on the radio because I was folowing the draft on the Internet and thought it would be cool to find local sports radio stations on the Internet and listen to takes from the local guys who have great inside takes.  Many with the Broncos media wanted Marcell Dareus, the DT that Buffalo took.  Dareus has turned out to be a very good DT BTW and he has played great but Von was the better player.  I felt the others in the Denver and national media were right and that Al Williams was wrong but as it turns out Al was right.  I gained a lot of respect for him because the Broncos really badly needed a DT and Marcell Dareus went with the very next pick after Von Miller.  Many in the media thought the Broncos would take Dareus and so did I but Al was vehemently arguing for Von the entire time.  Williams dug his heels in but the circumstances and stakes were much higher.  The 2nd pick in the draft, many arguing for the DT and he got crucified but he didn't care.  He nearly cried on the radio.  Von Miller has made a tremendous impact and played a key role in the Broncos Super Bowl victory.  

Al showed that when you dig your heels in and argue for a guy like Von Miller, it makes sense do to the tremendous impact he could make but Al didn't turn around and try to point out mistakes of Dareus or anything like that to make his case.  He argues passionately at the time he needed to take his stance and let the player make his case.  He didn't force it.  

SOBO may change his mind on Decker Conklin, he hasn't dug his heels in yet but if he takes one side over the other, well.  I prefer the way Al Williams allows the player to make his case on the field. 

 
Here is the thing with SOBO.  He does know his stuff, he really does know technical aspects of offensive line play and he studies tape so he knows his stuff and he does the homework.  I respect the hell out of his knowledge and listen when he shares knowledge.  However,  even with his knowledge SOBO isn't always right.  He tends to be overly aggressive in arguing certain opinions declaring a player that he wanted was or is playing much better than a player that someone else wanted even when that isn't true and he dismisses evidence that is counter to his opinion.  

Last year is a classic example.  He wanted the DT Brown that NE got and didn't want Danny Shelton and was ripping Shelton before the first preseason game and praising Brown before the season began.  Way too soon to make any declarative statements.  When glaring mistakes of Brown were pointed out he would dismiss mistakes and highlight the splash plays and whenever Shelton made a great play SOBO would aggressively point out any mistakes he made.  It was like he HAD to be right since he had dug his heels in.  He knew Brown was used totally different in Belichick's scheme where he was asked to penetrate and make splash plays and not take on double and triple teams that Pettine had Shelton doing so SOBO.  No acknowledgment of the different schemes, anything he could use to force his argument, SOBO used because he dug his heels in and had to be right.  His followers who haven't his knowledge and who don't do the homework tend to follow his lead on being overly aggressive in defending SOBO's takes.  

The season began and Shelton was starting and wasn't great but was 'ok' but SOBO pointed out every mistake.  Brown was not starting and when he played he was erratic and made glaring mistakes but he'd make flash plays and SOBO would highlight the flash plays and overlook the glaring mistakes of Brown.  SOBO had a biased slanted  opinion and forced his agenda and instead of using his knowledge to teach and empower others to learn what he knows he would use his knowledge to sway people to become followers where he is the guru.  So I take the good with SOBO.  I went and checked out what he had to say on Decker and he has not dug his heels in at this point.  He also hasn't dug his heels in on Conklin and he even said he would go back and rewatch tape so he may side with Al Williams and others on Conklin.

Al Williams is a guy I respect and one of the reasons is because of Von Miller.  Al was a staunch supporter of the Broncos to take Von Miller in that draft long before others.  Al played OLB/DE in the NFL, he knows pass rushers like SOBO knows offensive lineman.  I remember hearing AL Williams nearly cry when the Broncos took Von Miller live on the radio because I was folowing the draft on the Internet and thought it would be cool to find local sports radio stations on the Internet and listen to takes from the local guys who have great inside takes.  Many with the Broncos media wanted Marcell Dareus, the DT that Buffalo took.  Dareus has turned out to be a very good DT BTW and he has played great but Von was the better player.  I felt the others in the Denver and national media were right and that Al Williams was wrong but as it turns out Al was right.  I gained a lot of respect for him because the Broncos really badly needed a DT and Marcell Dareus went with the very next pick after Von Miller.  Many in the media thought the Broncos would take Dareus and so did I but Al was vehemently arguing for Von the entire time.  Williams dug his heels in but the circumstances and stakes were much higher.  The 2nd pick in the draft, many arguing for the DT and he got crucified but he didn't care.  He nearly cried on the radio.  Von Miller has made a tremendous impact and played a key role in the Broncos Super Bowl victory.  

Al showed that when you dig your heels in and argue for a guy like Von Miller, it makes sense do to the tremendous impact he could make but Al didn't turn around and try to point out mistakes of Dareus or anything like that to make his case.  He argues passionately at the time he needed to take his stance and let the player make his case.  He didn't force it.  

SOBO may change his mind on Decker Conklin, he hasn't dug his heels in yet but if he takes one side over the other, well.  I prefer the way Al Williams allows the player to make his case on the field. 
No problem nice discussion..

 
I went back over every draft since the year 2000 to see how the 8th picks have turned out and it isn't as good as i thought it would be.

2000 - 8    Plaxico Burress    Steelers    WR    Michigan State

2001 - 8    David Terrell    Bears    WR    Michigan BUST

2002 - 8    Roy Williams    Cowboys    DB    Oklahoma Pro Bowl player

2003 - 8    Jordan Gross    Panthers    T    Utah Pro Bowl player

2004 - 8    DeAngelo Hall    Falcons    DB    Virginia Tech Pro Bowl player

2005 - 8    Antrel Rolle    Cardinals    DB    Miami (FL) Pro Bowl player

2006 - 8    Donte Whitner    Bills    DB    Ohio State Pro Bowl player

2007 - 8    Jamaal Anderson    Falcons    DE    Arkansas BUST

2008 - 8    Derrick Harvey    Jaguars    DE    Florida BUST

2009 - 8    Eugene Monroe    Jaguars    T    Virginia

2010 - 8    Rolando McClain    Raiders    LB    Alabama

2011 - 8    Jake Locker    Titans    QB    Washington BUST

2012 - 8    Ryan Tannehill    Dolphins    QB    Texas A&M

2013 - 8    Tavon Austin    Rams    WR    West Virginia

2014 - 8    Justin Gilbert    Browns    DB    Oklahoma State BUST

2015 - 8    Vic Beasley    Falcons    LB    Clemson ???

I thought there would be a greater success with the 8th pick. 

I think if we don't have to move down too far that I would want to trade down provided we got at least a 2nd round pick this or next year.

The odds are not even 50/50 that we get a good solid player with the 8th pick so I'd want to maximize the value of the pick and increase the odds we get at least one solid player from the value of the pick so if that means moving down then I would favor doing that.

 
Sent a message to Bracie, but I need a relief pitcher for Soulfly in mock draft thread.  Any Browns fan, let me know.  There's a trade offer for them.

 
It may have already been discussed, so apologies if I missed it, but I wonder if the trade down angle is WR based.  There's a good argument that none of them are top 10 quality, but I believe there's a rather substantial drop off after Treadwell/Doctson/Coleman/Thomas, and they all could go between 10 and 25.  Once losing Goff, instead of considering trading up from 32 to get one of them, they're sliding backwards.  

 
It may have already been discussed, so apologies if I missed it, but I wonder if the trade down angle is WR based.  There's a good argument that none of them are top 10 quality, but I believe there's a rather substantial drop off after Treadwell/Doctson/Coleman/Thomas, and they all could go between 10 and 25.  Once losing Goff, instead of considering trading up from 32 to get one of them, they're sliding backwards.  




 
Could be.  La Canfora reports that exact scenario but he also mentions OT Conklin as the target if we move down while others report we would move down for QB Paxton Lynch and other say we might move up for Lynch or Ramsey or Tunsil.  

But your speculation is definitely within reason since La Confora reports the exact same thing, that we want to move down to take WR Laquon Treadwell.

Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora  21h21 hours ago
Continue to hear the Browns wide open to dealing out of 8. Would go into the teens to target Treadwell (Conklin plan b). Column forthcoming
We have far to many holes to fill so I don't think that we were ever going to trade valuable picks to move up one spot for Goff but I am sure that if he fell, we would have taken him at pick #2.

Once Goff was off the board the decision was to take Wentz or field offers to move down and get as much as possible where if we didn't get an offer that we liked we would have taken Wentz.  

There are only so many mathematical possibilities so I am sure every contingency has been figured out with the #8 pick and everything within reason has been figured out for deals we might get for moving down even to the point of getting an offer that blows us away, forcing us to move down instead of taking someone we would take if they fell to pick #8 who we don't anticipate.  

 
Teams 2-4 picks behind us trying to move up for Zeke, should he be there at 8

I'm bout it, bout it. Grab RG3 Coleman or Treadwell. 

 
I'm all for moving back again at this point and my guess would be that is their goal.  I can even see us moving back twice.  12-15 range then ultimately drafting around 20-22. 

I want to believe Sashi that they have this one guy they really want and think he could be there at 8 (because ya know, it would be nice to get your boards #2 player at #8), but I think it's all just noise.  He practically had to make mention himself, multiple times at the presser, of how much he loved the 8 spot.  One big master plan to trade again.  

I also hope we don't trade up from 32 (or 8 for that matter).  I want teams calling us overnight.  Just trade down and infuse the roster with young talent and probably add more future picks for '17 and '18 when we're more apt to move up.

 
Teams 2-4 picks behind us trying to move up for Zeke, should he be there at 8

I'm bout it, bout it. Grab RG3 Coleman or Treadwell. 




 




 
Soul, 

Are you back?  I am going to be gone for hours, in mock the Browns have four picks coming up, one near the bottom of the 4th round,  compensatory pick.  An early 5th round pick and 2 late 5th round comp picks.

The first pick probably won't come up for about an hour and I'm gone in about fifteen minutes so I doubt I'll get to make the picks.  

If anyone else here would like to jump in head up to the SP Invitational mock thread.  So far we've taken an, OT, WR, WR, DL, TE, and CB.  Didn't take any QBs since I felt that any QB taken after the first round was backup material but Cardale is still available and so is the kid from Stanford that the team likes. 

 
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Interesting... If the pick was going to be a defensive player, you'd roll the dice on unproven talent over elite production?

 
I wouldn't consider Mo elite. Very good? Sure. Right now. But we are playing for 2018 and beyond, not right now. Mo will be venturing to the wrong side of his prime by then when we want guys entering theirs. The time to consider getting a guy like Mo is 11 months from now when he will only cost money, not a pick too.

 
Interesting... If the pick was going to be a defensive player, you'd roll the dice on unproven talent over elite production?
I would roll the dice on a guy 5 years younger and 1/20th the cost.  Yes.   Especially when production 2 years from now is 10000x more important than production this year and next.

 
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I would roll the dice on a guy 5 years younger and 1/20th the cost.  Yes.   Especially when production 2 years from now is 10000x more important than production this year and next.
The cost argument means very little to me, tbh. They could cut him if/when he turned to poo, and we have money to burn more than almost any other team in the league. 

I dunno... I wouldnt be pissed off if we did it. Id prefer Stanley/Tunsil or a trade down... But I dont think Id be pissed in the least

 
The cost argument means very little to me, tbh. They could cut him if/when he turned to poo, and we have money to burn more than almost any other team in the league. 

I dunno... I wouldnt be pissed off if we did it. Id prefer Stanley/Tunsil or a trade down... But I dont think Id be pissed in the least
I would be pretty pissed if we did it cause it would make absolutely zero sense.  Sure let's pick up a 27 year old who makes a lot so that he can be 30 by the time this team has a chance.  Sounds like a great plan.

Worst idea I have heard from you yet here Soul.  Much rather take your boy Coleman

 
So we let a guy at a similar age in Schwartz walk then give up the 8th pick to get a similar caliber player (at a different position) and pay him the money we wouldn't pay Schwartz.

Yeah, draft needs to start. Now, please.

 
So we let a guy at a similar age in Schwartz walk then give up the 8th pick to get a similar caliber player (at a different position) and pay him the money we wouldn't pay Schwartz.

Yeah, draft needs to start. Now, please.
Schwartz is the guy who didnt want to play here, so he left... correct?

 
Nathan Zegura promoted this today on the radio, I'm all in

[SIZE=11pt]1st [/SIZE]– trade back to 13 with Miami (further if you can), get another pick and get Josh Dodson, WR, TCU[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]2nd [/SIZE]– trade back to whatever & get another pick then draft Sterling Shepard, WR, Oklahoma[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]3rd [/SIZE]– QB or Leonte Carroo, WR, Rutgers[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]3rd [/SIZE]– see above, whichever you don’t pick with first 3rd rounder, pick that guy here[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]4th [/SIZE]– get a tackle, another WR, defense[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]5th [/SIZE]– defense, OL[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]6th [/SIZE]– dreck[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]7th [/SIZE]– here’s your lovely parting gift, thanks for coming to camp[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]#GOBROWNS[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

 
Carroo will be gone in the 2nd, im sure of it. Id be all for us taking him with ours if we dont take a wr in the first

 
Carroo will be gone in the 2nd, im sure of it. Id be all for us taking him with ours if we dont take a wr in the first
He worth moving back into 2nd to get? If the trade scenario happens we'd acquire some more picks, Probably not a 2 but could we put a package together to move up to get him? My guess is yes if they like the kid.

 
He worth moving back into 2nd to get? If the trade scenario happens we'd acquire some more picks, Probably not a 2 but could we put a package together to move up to get him? My guess is yes if they like the kid.
Browns have a 2nd round pick, what do you mean?

 
It is insane that it's actually plausible (see upthread from someone else who suggested possibility of trading back twice) especially if the Texans want to try and preempt the competiton for a WR.

As a Bengals fan I don't get to enjoy trade speculation as we almost never move around.

Cardale jokes aside who do you want the Browns to take at QB?

-QG

 
It is insane that it's actually plausible (see upthread from someone else who suggested possibility of trading back twice) especially if the Texans want to try and preempt the competiton for a WR.

As a Bengals fan I don't get to enjoy trade speculation as we almost never move around.

Cardale jokes aside who do you want the Browns to take at QB?

-QG
Matt Johnson or Vernon Adams very late.

 
If the #Browns move back from No. 8, the thinking is they take a top WR. #OleMiss WR Laquon Treadwell is a player they'll look hard at.

Ian Rappaport 

 
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Cardale jokes aside who do you want the Browns to take at QB?

-QG
Whomever they take will be a project for Hue to play with, Lynch/Cook/Hackenberg but unless you burn that 2nd for one they won't be around in the 3rd. I still think with all the picks they have, they move back into 2nd round if they really like somebody. Tough call because of all the needs on the team, hard to justify a high round pick for a QB when you have serviceable guys on the roster and better value picks at other positions. Heard it earlier this week from somewhere but as bad as the Browns have been at QB, not against drafting one in ever draft as a project. If they don't pan out not a huge loss but at least you have a steady stream of talent coming in.

 
My hope is that they take BPA all weekend.  I'd also like to see some of these picks swapped for 2017 capital.

 
i find myself thinking back to the first night of last year's draft.  

i was excited about all the beef they added to the lines.  kids both looked good in their highlight reels.  

just never know how it's gonna turn out i guess.  

 
Nice trade. I really like getting picks for 2017. Browns are going into next years draft loaded as well.

 
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