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Cleveland Browns (2 Viewers)

MAC_32 said:
Not the issue tonight. Wide receivers were bad, Baker worse, and Shannahan schooled us on the other side of the ball.
Agree with a lot of what you’ve said so far (still catching up), but how do you write this and not mention the OL as an issue last night?

ok now I read all your posts, no need to beat a dead horse by replying here.

 
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Agree with a lot of what you’ve said so far (still catching up), but how do you write this and not mention the OL as an issue last night?

ok now I read all your posts, no need to beat a dead horse by replying here.
I hope it doesnt get distorted into that I think the OL is playing well. It's not. I just dont think it's a priority problem needing addressed. Much like last year as is a functional offense can exist. They're just a convenient scapegoat because of a preconceived bias. Nobody on that unit is any different than they were before. Regression has occurred elsewhere. 

 
Some thoughts..

My main issue with the OL is that the 2 games where we’ve seen this offense at its very worst (Tenn and SF imo), those opponents realized very early in the game they could generate quick pressures on Baker while only bringing their front 4 (usually dropping 7 into zone packages). Our tackles are horrid too. This is a problem and if some people don’t think so that’s ok.

Maybe Vernon is helping Myles get to the QB overall, I’m not really sure (but sorta doubt it). I haven’t been impressed. Not good against the run, doesn’t shed the initial block. Seems like this trade is a big loss 5 weeks into the season. Someone educate me if I’m wrong. 

I still don’t have a good feeling about Monken and his influence on the offense. 

Higgins is a big missing void for Baker, more than some people want to admit. Same goes for Njoku. His 2 fav red zone guys too.

Do we still get steamrolled if Callaway makes the easy catch and it’s 14-10? Similar to the Henry screen (although not a botch by the refs this time), it’s a game altering type play.

 
I hope it doesnt get distorted into that I think the OL is playing well. It's not. I just dont think it's a priority problem needing addressed. Much like last year as is a functional offense can exist. They're just a convenient scapegoat because of a preconceived bias. Nobody on that unit is any different than they were before. Regression has occurred elsewhere. 
No I didn’t take it as you saying they’re playing well.
 

I thought Robinson was an upgrade compared to Harrison last year. This year it feels like he is Harrison. You’re right in that Hubbard was never any good so it’s hard to regress there.
 

Obviously RG has had major regression as a position.
 

 
It's probably at least partially confirmation bias, but I think the Ogbah trade has been the bigger net loss than Zeitler. As I argued at the time you can find Murray's on the street. And we did. His name is Burris. Ogbah stepped his game up and Vernon would probably be more effective in a 40 snap role. And Kush has been fine. 

 
It's probably at least partially confirmation bias, but I think the Ogbah trade has been the bigger net loss than Zeitler. As I argued at the time you can find Murray's on the street. And we did. His name is Burris. Ogbah stepped his game up and Vernon would probably be more effective in a 40 snap role. And Kush has been fine. 
I’ve seen Kush get put on his tush multiple times off the snap. He has seemed adequate though which is essentially your point the last 2 pages. It’s regression to me only because of how good Zeitler is. 

 
I’ve seen Kush get put on his tush multiple times off the snap. He has seemed adequate though which is essentially your point the last 2 pages. It’s regression to me only because of how good Zeitler is. 
Fair assessment. And I think the trade off would be a good one if we still had Ogbah. We don't so we have a downgrade at RG and a fatigued DE when we could have had a quality rotation. I dont think Vernon has been as bad as the box score indicates as he creates a decent amount of pressure. I just think he'd be efficient on less reps. 

 
OBJ Film Review
 

“For the first time, Mayfield admitted Wednesday that Beckham missing training camp “definitely hurt” their timing. That isn’t an excuse. It is completely accurate. Just as Mayfield isn’t trusting his offensive line in pass protection, he does not trust Beckham to be where he should on these timing routes.

That isn’t a knock on Mayfield or a dig at Beckham’s route running. Rather, these two just have not had enough live reps together for such intermediate routes to work efficiently.”
 

perhaps all the time he missed was more important than some thought?

 
OBJ Film Review
 

“For the first time, Mayfield admitted Wednesday that Beckham missing training camp “definitely hurt” their timing. That isn’t an excuse. It is completely accurate. Just as Mayfield isn’t trusting his offensive line in pass protection, he does not trust Beckham to be where he should on these timing routes.

That isn’t a knock on Mayfield or a dig at Beckham’s route running. Rather, these two just have not had enough live reps together for such intermediate routes to work efficiently.”
 

perhaps all the time he missed was more important than some thought?
All I see is mayfield doesn't read a defense or even look at beckham. He was open all night vs san fran and doesn't go through his progressions. He picks were he is going with it before the snap. That needs to change.

 
All I see is mayfield doesn't read a defense or even look at beckham. He was open all night vs san fran and doesn't go through his progressions. He picks were he is going with it before the snap. That needs to change.
Not sure I understand this thought....If he knows where he's going and it's open, why is he holding onto the ball so long?  If it's not open, why is he moving his head around looking at other receivers if he's not going through his progression?  While I agree with some of it, I don't think it's as absolute as you put it out to be.

I do agree with his trust issues...and the only way to fix that is with more time/practice/reps.

 
Wilks got his ### kicked last night by Shanahan who had two weeks to sit and prepare.
Matt Harmon‏Verified account @MattHarmon_BYB

Interesting note from @MoveTheSticks on his pod: “There are more people spending time in the league studying Kyle Shanahan on a weekly basis than Sean McVay.” This was even true when they were losing, as teams especially wanted to study what they were doing in the run game.

1:43 PM - 9 Oct 2019

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Yep.  Shanny is 'wicked-smhaaart'.👨‍🎓

 
Not sure I understand this thought....If he knows where he's going and it's open, why is he holding onto the ball so long?  If it's not open, why is he moving his head around looking at other receivers if he's not going through his progression?  While I agree with some of it, I don't think it's as absolute as you put it out to be.

I do agree with his trust issues...and the only way to fix that is with more time/practice/reps.
All 3 videos baker doesn't move his head. He stares at were is going to go with it.  The reason he holds it for so long could be trust or he just isn't a good qb. He is waiting for the receiver to "appear" open before throwing it instead of throwing him open. Go rewatch the clips you posted. He doesn't spin his head left or right. From the snap he is looking one direction and patting the ball waiting for the reciever to "get open" instead of reading who already is open. Which was odell the majority of the night

 
All 3 videos baker doesn't move his head. He stares at were is going to go with it.  The reason he holds it for so long could be trust or he just isn't a good qb. He is waiting for the receiver to "appear" open before throwing it instead of throwing him open. Go rewatch the clips you posted. He doesn't spin his head left or right. From the snap he is looking one direction and patting the ball waiting for the reciever to "get open" instead of reading who already is open. Which was odell the majority of the night
Odell, is that you?

 
It's hard to botch the final 2 minutes any worse than that.  So awful.  We did exactly what seattle was hoping we do.  Just so stupid.  No excuse for that.

 
my question is, are all of these tipped ball interceptions a fluke, or does it have something to do with the way Mayfield throws the ball?  (regarding his height and the angle he has to throw from)

and before anyone says he throws the ball “too hard” i’ll refer you to Brett Favre, whose coaches always said something to the effect of shut up and catch the ball.  
 

i’ll hang up and listen. 

 
i feel like he’s making some dumb mistakes, but not ready to give up 6 games in.  
 

I’ll keep saying it: they hired a first time head coach. it’s. going. to. take. time. 
Those are my thoughts. I usually let the coach really prove that he is terrible before I pile on but Freddie is heading down that road rapidly. Hard to say that he didn't cost them the game with that hurry up crap at the end of the 2nd half and the dumb challenge to waste a timeout so you couldn't challenge the late 3rd down catch. His game management is terrible.

 
Ryan McCrystal✔@Ryan_McCrystal

Why is backup running back Dontrell Hilliard playing receiver for the Browns in the final three minutes of a one-score game? And who is making these terrible decisions?

--------------------------------------------------------

📽️  Freddie challenge blown time out loses challenge and TD

Tucker Boynton‏ @Tucker_TnL

Freddie Kitchens

  • challenges the previous play as his RB is going into the end zone
  • loses the challenge
  • then runs the same play and fails to convert on 4th down Browns football.
--------------------------------------------------------

Bottlegate@Bottlegate

Pete Carroll playing chess while Freddie Kitchens plays Hungry Hungry Hippos

3:54 PM - Oct 13, 2019

 
OK, let’s nip this one in the bud: Chubb had a walk in TD because the Seahawks stopped playing, because the refs blew the whistle, because Kitchens threw the challenge flag. 
 

everybody got it now?

 
i feel like he’s making some dumb mistakes, but not ready to give up 6 games in.  
 

I’ll keep saying it: they hired a first time head coach. it’s. going. to. take. time. 
Might want to find something else to talk about for the next 2 weeks because that's pretty much all we are going to hear. 

 
Might want to find something else to talk about for the next 2 weeks because that's pretty much all we are going to hear. 
Ok, how about the line actually sucks even though you say it doesn’t?

there was one play that Mayfield nearly got crushed from the left and Hubbard got a penalty for holding on the right side.  he nearly got destroyed by both sides on one play, which should never happen. 
 

i appreciate your analysis but saying the oline is “below average” is being kind.  

 
Seattle is a good team that didn't turn the ball over 4 times. 
turnovers were brutal. 
 

can you give some insight to my earlier question as to why so many of Mayfields passes get tipped into interceptions?  is it luck or something else?

 
Ok, how about the line actually sucks even though you say it doesn’t?

there was one play that Mayfield nearly got crushed from the left and Hubbard got a penalty for holding on the right side.  he nearly got destroyed by both sides on one play, which should never happen. 
 

i appreciate your analysis but saying the oline is “below average” is being kind.  
Never once when watching the game today did I ever think to myself they're a problem. If you vacuum it down to a play or two you can skewer every player on the field. 

 
turnovers were brutal. 
 

can you give some insight to my earlier question as to why so many of Mayfields passes get tipped into interceptions?  is it luck or something else?
Wouldnt be able to provide a cohesive answer, but I suspect someone will do the work on it over the next couple weeks. Knee jerk, not good throws that shouldn't be picked off though. 

 
Never once when watching the game today did I ever think to myself they're a problem. If you vacuum it down to a play or two you can skewer every player on the field. 
fair enough.  I don’t take notes the whole game, but that play was beyond awful. should never happen. 
 

i believe Mayfield and Chubb are hiding how bad they are.  they need a left tackle, a right guard and a right tackle. 
 

 
Wouldnt be able to provide a cohesive answer, but I suspect someone will do the work on it over the next couple weeks. Knee jerk, not good throws that shouldn't be picked off though. 
that’s also my impression but it seems odd there are so many. 

 
fair enough.  I don’t take notes the whole game, but that play was beyond awful. should never happen. 
 

i believe Mayfield and Chubb are hiding how bad they are.  they need a left tackle, a right guard and a right tackle. 
 
I don't think need is the right word, but I expect OL to be a priority March and April. We'll see what other positions are as well and which ones take precedence. 

 
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weird

imo, they will be 2-5, they could still end up 8-8. 
 

just hope they don’t give up. 
 

stinks they lost today, but they were in it almost to the end. that is progress, even if it doesn’t feel like it. 

 
What are people feeling about the head coach?  
Worried, but not for the same reasons as everyone else. I think it is all attention to detail and focus related. We aren't. And it's everyone. Not persistently, but frequently enough to have us on the roller coaster that we are on. 

 
I could see us playing New England tough, but the things that worked well today will backfire and vice versa. Also, the offensive woes are overshadowing the defensive woes. A weekly Myles Garrett sack isn't enough. We haven't forced turnovers in the last 2 games.

 
So what happened today? What was the turning point in the game?
Browns up 20-6 early(each team missed a pat).  Then 20-9.  Had a punt blocked, but D held...20-12.  Key drive...Browns driving under 2 minutes to go in 2nd quarter.  2nd and 8 from the 10.  Baker throws a terrible pass to Landry in the endzone that gets tipped and picked.  1:37 left and Seattle drives 83 yards for a td with 22 seconds left, 2 pointer failed.....20-18.  At worst it should of been 23-12, possibly 27-12 at the half.....ugh

 
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i believe Mayfield and Chubb are hiding how bad they are.  they need a left tackle, a right guard and a right tackle. 
 
Perhaps but Mayfield isn't doing a very good job at hiding how awful he is.  5 TDs, 11 picks.  I don't care how bad your line is, those are terrible numbers,

 
Perhaps but Mayfield isn't doing a very good job at hiding how awful he is.  5 TDs, 11 picks.  I don't care how bad your line is, those are terrible numbers,
They are terrible numbers but numbers don't tell the story about how good or awful a QB is.  Rudolph's and Duck's numbers look 'good' but they haven't been asked to do anything and it isn't because Fitchner is hiding how good they are.

Baker's timing is off, he's throwing low and behind and has at least two (or three?) really bad tipped INTs and one where two WRs collided where he threw to a spot and got picked.  He had at least one hail Mary INT to end a half.  The INTs are bad but the aggressiveness of Baker coupled with the aggressiveness of Kitchens/Monken and with the big play ability of WR OBJ had the offense opening this year running deeper routes which lead to more sacks/pressure/hits connected directly to issues with Baker.

Kitchens is going to run an aggressive offense and Baker is aggressive.  People dislike Baker so they want to see him fail and make up things that aren't true.  Phantom handshakes?  People try to script a villain or hero but the truth is that Baker is talented and he's got the best weapons in the division but their are more than one simple reason why his numbers look terrible and it is not because he's awful. 

 
They are terrible numbers but numbers don't tell the story about how good or awful a QB is.  Rudolph's and Duck's numbers look 'good' but they haven't been asked to do anything and it isn't because Fitchner is hiding how good they are.

Baker's timing is off, he's throwing low and behind and has at least two (or three?) really bad tipped INTs and one where two WRs collided where he threw to a spot and got picked.  He had at least one hail Mary INT to end a half.  The INTs are bad but the aggressiveness of Baker coupled with the aggressiveness of Kitchens/Monken and with the big play ability of WR OBJ had the offense opening this year running deeper routes which lead to more sacks/pressure/hits connected directly to issues with Baker.

Kitchens is going to run an aggressive offense and Baker is aggressive.  People dislike Baker so they want to see him fail and make up things that aren't true.  Phantom handshakes?  People try to script a villain or hero but the truth is that Baker is talented and he's got the best weapons in the division but their are more than one simple reason why his numbers look terrible and it is not because he's awful. 
I don't dislike Baker and I don't necessarily think he'll never be a good QB but he is playing awful and those numbers reflect it.

 
I don't dislike Baker and I don't necessarily think he'll never be a good QB but he is playing awful and those numbers reflect it.
'PLAYING' awful and 'BEING' awful are two different things and I've admitted he's playing awful but gave reasons.

Rudolph and Duck have posted 'good' stats but that doesn't tell the whole story either.

 
'PLAYING' awful and 'BEING' awful are two different things and I've admitted he's playing awful but gave reasons.

Rudolph and Duck have posted 'good' stats but that doesn't tell the whole story either.
True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   

 
True but I never compared Rudolph or Hodges to Mayfield.   They are different QBs on different teams, being asked to do different things.     That said Mayfield is playing lousy and the Browns would do well to change their approach because it isn't working very well.   
I agree 100%, he's posting awful stats and they have to figure it out but a rookie HC is also calling plays, he's got a lot on his plate.  I don't like that. 

Baker took five sacks in his last eight games last year but took that many in the opener.  Pressure is an issue the coaches 'apparently' weren't too concerned with as the offense drifted away from 12 personnel which was their most effective offensive set last year but by adding the big-play WR it takes from key pass-pro personnel. 

The QBs are not only asked to do different things the offenses are constructed different.  OBJ forces teams to bracket him which is a very-good thing.  Chubb can go house on any carry so that forces outside contain.  Baker has strengths but the goals are different, the philosophy is different.  Every team is a puzzle but a rookie HC/play caller trying to figure it out.  I don't think it should be as difficult and I don't think the numbers should be as awful.   

 
Besides the OL, Freddie is in over his head. Yesterday was a prime example. He needs to give up play calling. With a 20-6 lead and then throwing the ball instead of leaning on Chubb was stupid. Play clock and challenge flag management is abysmal. He panics and isn't wired to be a HC.

 
Browns up 20-6 early(each team missed a pat).  Then 20-9.  Had a punt blocked, but D held...20-12.  Key drive...Browns driving under 2 minutes to go in 2nd quarter.  2nd and 8 from the 10.  Baker throws a terrible pass to Landry in the endzone that gets tipped and picked.  1:37 left and Seattle drives 83 yards for a td with 22 seconds left, 2 pointer failed.....20-18.  At worst it should of been 23-12, possibly 27-12 at the half.....ugh
Yep.  Shot themselves in the foot several times, aided by a couple bad calls.  Baker needs to be more precise.

 

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