daveR
Footballguy
That's the way I understood it, as well. If that's the case, I believe he would get the tag again.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
RB Le'Veon Bell, FA - 9.6.21 Workout For Baltimore (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I'd guess there's roughly a zero percent chance he sits the entire year. He'll report and do whatever he has to do to get credit for his year. If there's one thing we know, it's that he won't sacrifice anything that could cost him his payday next year.
Milkman
Footballguy
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Nope, I don't blame him. Not everyone would handle it that way, and not everyone has. But that's his choice.
I'm not for the players and I'm not for the team. I'm for whatever works and everyone doing what they think is best. Bell isn't being selfish, but the team isn't being stupid or cheap either. I'm just not foolish enough to call the Steelers cheap because they couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't pay Bell a monster contract when they're already paying Ben and Brown and it's not like Bell has been the most reliable RB over his career so far. They had good reason to not offer Bell a contract like he wants in 2015, 2016, or 2017, and it'll play out however it plays out in 2018 and 2019.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Agree with what you're predicting...but what about my question in the proposed hypothetical?
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I think he gets traded. A team giving consideration will bring him in for a 3rd, see how he looks in their offense, kinda like a trial.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I believe you're right. If for some reason he doesn't report at all, it's like this year didn't happen.... which is why he'd never do that.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Why do you say that? Seriously, what does Bell have to prove from an ability standpoint to anyone? If healthy (which he is every day he’s jet skiing vs getting hit by 300 lb linemen) is he not a consensus top 2-3 back in this league. He’s 26. Again - if you’re a GM do they not have enough experience with Bell and hours of tape? Biggest no brainer ever if you need a stud, 3 down back.
Deamon
Footballguy
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
Ya, but if this decision is all business, then he's not going to play for another team either. Not without a new contract.If he feels disrespected by the Steelers.These guys are human.
The way I understand it is that if he doesn’t play at all, this year doesn’t “count,” & next off-season, th Steelers van franchise him again, at the $14.5M rate.
There was an article (by Ed Bouchette, I think) discussing this where he said IF it plays out like that, he doesn’t think Pitt tag him again.
There has to be something innit for Bell, though. He hasn’t signed the tag & he can’t be traded till he does. A new team can’t give him a long term deal, so they’d have to agree to give him more $$ THIS YEAR to get him agree to the sign & trade. If he was/is unwilling to forego up to $8.5M to save himself by sitting out 10 weeks, why would he suddenly decide, “now I’m I’ll risk injury with a new team?”
msommer
Footballguy
Why would the steelers tag Bell (if they can) next year? They know there's not going to be much negotiation as Bell will be beyond pissed. For the trade value?
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
With Bell sitting out and with them cutting landry jones, the steelers are rolling way more capspace into next year than was previously thought possible. I think they 100% tag him again to guarantee high compensation if he wants out.
If they tag him again, they won't get any compensation. He either signs with them, or they rescind the tag. If a tag is applied, then rescinded, they don't get a comp pick.
Also, a 3rd franchise tag is applied at the highest rate, regardless of position, so Bell would command the QB tag rate. Because of the QB contracts signed this offseason, that tag would likely command a 1-year salary north of $25M. I think it's 100% possible they don't tag him again.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
What are you talking about regarding no compensation? If another team signed him they would have to give up 1st round picks. That is the leverage the steeers need if they have the cap space to hold him again.
daveR
Footballguy
Because, if they don't, he becomes unrestricted & they get nothing. Tagged & signed, he can be traded before the deadline.
Last edited by a moderator:
daveR
Footballguy
Of course he is. This is the very definition of selfish. He isn't doing anything for anybody but himself. If you're okay with it, fine. I think most people agree.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I think steelers are projected to have something like $17mm in cap space in terms of salaries (shazier dead money goes away). Then you add in the roll over from saving $6mm on landry jones and every week that bell sits out, then the steelers can hold him hostage.
msommer
Footballguy
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I can see that side of it too. But, I guess I see a guy making a business decision. This is his job, and it's not like he has a signed contract that he's going back on. He doesn't want to sign what's been offered to him, and that's his call to forego nearly a million dollars per week to make that decision. It's been said a thousand times, but no matter how much money he makes next offseason, he can't get back the roughly $8 million he'd lose this year. While I can surely see how that can look selfish, it's not like I can't see that side of it. The team can use him, but RB is far from the Steelers' greatest need right now.
My only point in anything I've ever said is that the Steelers aren't being cheap with him, and they aren't being stupid by not signing him. There are tons of other factors that have contributed to the situation they're in (timing of suspensions and injuries, other high priced contracts on the team, behavior etc).
I don't understand why this has to be a situation where one side is right and the other is wrong. They're both playing by the rules and have plenty of reasons for the decisions they've made.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
No team is getting him for a trial. He has to have a long term deal in place in order to sign the tender before he can be traded. He's not going to go to a team to run him into the ground for a little over $10 million this year and risk not getting the big contract next year.
Huh? Are you talking about the franchise tag? Where do 1st round picks come in?
Do you mean if a team were to try to trade for Bell, if the Steelers tagged him again?
If you are calling Bell selfing because he is only doing what's best for himself, you have to call the Steelers selfish too, because they are just doing what's best for them. It works both ways.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
The non-exclusive franchise tag allows other teams to sign him with the Steelers having a right to match - and if the Steelers decline they get a two round picks from the other team, In other words that is not happening.
Last edited by a moderator:
The Steelers are projected to have $10.5M in cap space in 2019 (overthecap.com). Shazier isn't under contract for next year, and Landry Jones has already been cut (which overthecap.com should have already accounted for) so I don't think those things are a factor, so I'm not sure where you are getting the $17M number from. We can work with those number though. That adds up to $23M; if Bell sits out the full 10 weeks, AND Pitt is able to roll that money over (I'm not sure if that's a viable option or not), you'd be talking about approximately $31M to "hold him hostage."
But, the franchise tag for QBs next year is going to be around $27,530,000 to $29,305,000 (the tag is the average of the top 5 salaries at the position, but I'm not sure if it is from the previous season, or the upcoming season; the $27M is the average of the top 5 QBs this year, while the $29M is the average of the top 5 salaries for next year). Since this would be Bell's 3rd tag, he gets the highest franchise tag rate, not just his position's.
So, the Steelers could tag him at $27.5M-$29.3M, and MAYBE have $3.5M to $2.7M of cap space to work with. Meanwhile, Bell could do the same thing; refuse to sign, and not only do the Steelers have little to no cap space to do anything, they also have almost $30M less cap than every other team.
Who would be holding whom hostage in this scenario?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Okay, they've used the exclusive tag on him thus far. See my previous post, though; if the Steelers did that, they'd be screwing themselves. They'd have to make sure they have almost $30M of their cap allocated for Bell. Because of the 1st round picks, it's likely Bell wouldn't get an offer he'd accept, meaning this year's scenario could repeat itself, and the Steelers would be operating with a cap that is essentially $30m smaller than other teams.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
If Bell reports in time to get credit for the season then there is a 99.9% chance the Steelers will not franchise him because it would be the 3rd franchise tag and they will not tie up that kind of salary cap space.
If Bell sits the whole season then the Steelers could franchise him for the $14.5 million figure. I still don't think they do that but they might if they can work out a trade with another team.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Oh, my mistake. I thought you meant another team offering the 1st's wouldn't happen, then the Steelers COULD "hold Bell hostage" as another poster suggested.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well neither would happen because the Steeler know that no team is going to offer him a huge contract AND give up two first round picks. If the Steelers did that to "hold him hostage" it would be akin to the old adage of "cutting on their nose to spite their face".
Last edited by a moderator:
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
You are looking at cap space, not "effective cap space." They don't have enough players under contract for 2019, so the effective cap space looks at the maximum space they'll have when they sign the minimum players.
In any event, I used your numbers, and Pitt would leave themselves with, AT BEST, under $4M in cap space. They wouldn't be able to sign any FA, they wouldn't have any flexibility at all, and if Bell does the same thing next year, they won't get ANY return on that $27-29M. They might be holding Bell hostage by not letting him go anywhere else, but he'd be holding them hostage by not letting them use that cap money. They'd be screwing themselves to stick to to Bell. That would be stupid.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
That's all nonsense talk, but if the Steelers would tag him for a guaranteed $27 million for one year, Bell would sign it and play for it. No one would be holding anyone hostage. That's more fully guaranteed money than Gurley or Johnson got in their deals lol.
None of that is happening though. Not worth thinking about.
None of that is happening though. Not worth thinking about.
daveR
Footballguy
Agreed. I just didn't agree with people saying he wasn't being selfish. He is, but that's business from his end. I doubt it's being done out of spite or to prove a point. The team has restrictions, too.
What I wonder about is outside pressure from the NFL and/or the union.
daveR
Footballguy
So, IMO, there is no way he comes in before week 11. He might want that accrued year, or he might not. I wonder what sort of PT he would get at that point & how hard he would want to play. He may just sit out the entire year.
FWIW, if he sits out the entire year, the Steelers, I think, will re-impose the same tag. The difference will be that he will be signed & traded prior to the deadline. This should have happened this year. I wonder if his agent knew what they were facing.
FWIW, if he sits out the entire year, the Steelers, I think, will re-impose the same tag. The difference will be that he will be signed & traded prior to the deadline. This should have happened this year. I wonder if his agent knew what they were facing.
daveR
Footballguy
I've always wondered why a team who is drafting late wouldn't ante up a couple ones for a franchise player, especially a QB.
habsfan
Footballguy
I think he has tried to position himself as a bit of a crusader for "fair pay" in this situation. To me that's a bit of an admission that this move doesn't make total financial sense. People seldom play that card when they're "winning".
Personally I think he and his people overlooked/misread some of the ways this could play out and now they're in a bit of a mess...
Agreed, I was just refuting the “hostage” scenario posited by someone else.
ETA-this is the type of thing I was referencing a few pages back. On local radio & on these threads, I've heard/read Steeler fans discuss things like this: hold him hostage, if he comes back, don't play him to hurt his value, or run him until he gets hurt to hurt his value. i.e.-they are mad at Bell for trying to make as much money as he can, and want him to be punished for that. There are not as many who are as reasonable as you have been.
Last edited by a moderator:
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Yet all of them if presented with a situation where they had the opportunity to alienate teammates (and a city) to be set for life would alienate the teammates (and a city).
If the most important thing to him is to remain healthy for his next contract, I don't see him coming back this year where he's one Vontez Burfict horse collar tackle away from shredding his knee. Now if I've read everything right, the Steelers can let him walk for what could amount to a 3rd round pick in 2020 or franchise him again at the same tag price. I think the steelers would tag him again and work out a trade with one of the teams that have shown interest in him now. They should definitely get more than a 3rd with the team acquiring Bell getting him for more than the 1/2 season they would if they traded for him now.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I am sure there are some that feel this way but most of us can see both sides, something a lot of non-Steelers fans seem to be incapable of doing and resort to calling the Steelers organization cheap even though they are up against the cap seemingly every single seasonBayhawks said:
Hankmoody
Footballguy
That's a terrible take. They are following the rules of the CBA just like he is. Why don't you claim he's stealing their Franchise Tag by not reporting? They are both exercising options given to them by the CBA.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
HFS. Read the thread, I clarified what I meant by this in a post shortly after.
If you want to talk about terrible takes plesse read your second statement again. The Steelers tagged him, the can also pull the tag at any time.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hankmoody
Footballguy
No
If he fails the physical the contract is void ala Ryan Grant in Baltimore. If Bell thinks it's a bogus move he can file a grievance but I imagine he wouldn't want that at all and would be thrilled to be unrestricted.
I'm surprised more people aren't calling out the agent. He failed and badly imo.
Theses negotiations happen all the time. Sometimes it gets tense and camp and *maybe* a game or 2 is missed. But everyone needs to get paid and the number of protracted holdouts is a pretty low percentage. Furthermore - how often did the player create a win doing this? Yes there are examples on each side but 'it worked for player X' is not data. Some one should be able to chime in on that.
Let's say Bell has 7 years left. That is probably quite generous. So about 100 games or so. He has already given up 3% of that and that number is growing. He is probably right near/at his peak as well. The milk gets old pretty quick whether you drink it or not Bell is only getting older and at some point older quickly. So the million dollar Sundays might be more in the 60-70 range.
He also was in a position to stay healthy and succeed on the field. One of the best offensive line's in football with a dynamic passing game. What is the RB shelf life in NY, CLE getting hammered by DL's and LB's rather than LB's and DB's?
He also said he wants to get paid as 2 players (fair) - but not be used as 2 players (?). You can't have it both ways.
And Pitt would 'run him into the ground'. Why would they. Pitt is in the business of winning at football not overusing players before the playoffs.
So his agent thinks he can:
Get Bell some amount enough better than what Pitt offered to make missing a prime season worth it.
Make up the games/$$ lost this year.
Stay healthier elsewhere and not get 'overused'
Potentially put up Hall of Fame numbers/win a Super Bowl (although none of that is relevant because this is a 'business')
I'd take the other side of that bet any day.
I think the main place he ####ed himself was in not showing up and not telling them if/when he would. No team or teammate wants to deal with that bull####. Everyone can live with money talk but the work needs to happen.
I know - tl;dr
Agent failed - football suffered
Theses negotiations happen all the time. Sometimes it gets tense and camp and *maybe* a game or 2 is missed. But everyone needs to get paid and the number of protracted holdouts is a pretty low percentage. Furthermore - how often did the player create a win doing this? Yes there are examples on each side but 'it worked for player X' is not data. Some one should be able to chime in on that.
Let's say Bell has 7 years left. That is probably quite generous. So about 100 games or so. He has already given up 3% of that and that number is growing. He is probably right near/at his peak as well. The milk gets old pretty quick whether you drink it or not Bell is only getting older and at some point older quickly. So the million dollar Sundays might be more in the 60-70 range.
He also was in a position to stay healthy and succeed on the field. One of the best offensive line's in football with a dynamic passing game. What is the RB shelf life in NY, CLE getting hammered by DL's and LB's rather than LB's and DB's?
He also said he wants to get paid as 2 players (fair) - but not be used as 2 players (?). You can't have it both ways.
And Pitt would 'run him into the ground'. Why would they. Pitt is in the business of winning at football not overusing players before the playoffs.
So his agent thinks he can:
Get Bell some amount enough better than what Pitt offered to make missing a prime season worth it.
Make up the games/$$ lost this year.
Stay healthier elsewhere and not get 'overused'
Potentially put up Hall of Fame numbers/win a Super Bowl (although none of that is relevant because this is a 'business')
I'd take the other side of that bet any day.
I think the main place he ####ed himself was in not showing up and not telling them if/when he would. No team or teammate wants to deal with that bull####. Everyone can live with money talk but the work needs to happen.
I know - tl;dr
Agent failed - football suffered
Couple of things.
1-I think I read somewhere that his agent also represents some other RBs, and helping Bell get the largest possible contract would obviously pay off for the agent in the future. So, maybe he was not ONLY concerned with Bell's interests. I'll look later and see if I can find the article.
2-I'm going to have to disagree with your implication that he's in a better position to stay healthy because his O-line is good, and therefore he won't get as "hammered by DL's and LB's rather than LB's and DB's." Many of the worst injuries (excluding neck/spine type and concussions) are non-contact injuries & he doesn't even need to be hit by a PK to suffer the injury.
3-As far as "why would they" with regards to Pitt running him into the ground? The answer is because that is what they do, have done, and there is no reason to think they won't continue to do so. They gave Bell over 800 touches the last two years; they gave Conner 36 touches in week 1. That's why they would, because that is what they do. So Bell and his agent are rightfully concerned about that.
Similar threads
