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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

I cant imagine any reason why you'd do it given your stated goals unless you just want to make a bunch of money your 2L summer, or you want the interviewing practice.

Yup. It's sometimes a good idea to go through big-time interviews you don't care about to get yourself into the groove.

Ok cool.

As I talk to older students, the OCI interviews all kind of seem like a joke. Of course, the 1L summer interviews I did were kind of a joke also. Its like 30-45 minutes to see if you can speak coherently, aren't an #######, and actually go to law school. I've been doing, and will probably ramp up, case interview and behavioral interview stuff to prep for consulting interviews.

I had far tougher interviews for undergrad internships than the 1L summer ones. Is OCI different and the 2Ls/3Ls are just humble-bragging, or are OCI interviews kind of a joke?

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I don't know if there's a real pinnacle to this profession. Some times it really seems like there isn't one. But I do now know that when you're standing there waiting and hoping for two words instead

Made partner today. 

Well, as many of you know, I was an employment litigator (defense side) for many years before going in house almost four years ago. It’s been a huge learning experience and I’ve been able to work on a

what is the cliffs note version of what to expect in JP court? Do things like opening statements, cross examinations, objections and all that tv stuff actually happen? Or is streamlined and

built for peeps who walk in there without an attorney?

Very jurisdiction and subject matter specific. Check with your state's rules of evidence, rules of whatever subject matter procedure you're dealing with, and any local rules.

In my state the rules of evidence do not apply in small claims. It's very Judge Judy. Have a bare bones summary you can recite, have all your witnesses and exhibits (with extra copies) ready to go. Be respectful, but don't be afraid to push back if the judge isn't understanding correctly. They likely have spent 5 minutes on the case. :2cents:

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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

Why are you getting a law degree then?

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Despite this thread's title, we managed to ruin the McClure's BBQ thread. I see why people hate us now.

The people who gave the most advice regarding taking precautions weren't lawyers. And I'm glad they did. I'd hate to see a great guy like tipsy, or some of the fine folks who want to invest, getting caught up in ugliness.

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Despite this thread's title, we managed to ruin the McClure's BBQ thread. I see why people hate us now.

The people who gave the most advice regarding taking precautions weren't lawyers. And I'm glad they did. I'd hate to see a great guy like tipsy, or some of the fine folks who want to invest, getting caught up in ugliness.

Yeah, agree. I posted a couple of times in there too, for the same reason. Just mocking our role as killjoys, even if a killjoy was needed there.

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Despite this thread's title, we managed to ruin the McClure's BBQ thread. I see why people hate us now.

The people who gave the most advice regarding taking precautions weren't lawyers. And I'm glad they did. I'd hate to see a great guy like tipsy, or some of the fine folks who want to invest, getting caught up in ugliness.

Yeah, agree. I posted a couple of times in there too, for the same reason. Just mocking our role as killjoys, even if a killjoy was needed there.

Oh, I understand. Actually thought the lawyers held themselves back quite well. I know I wanted to write a whole bunch, some of which Steve Tasker (non-lawyer) covered later.

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Despite this thread's title, we managed to ruin the McClure's BBQ thread. I see why people hate us now.

The people who gave the most advice regarding taking precautions weren't lawyers. And I'm glad they did. I'd hate to see a great guy like tipsy, or some of the fine folks who want to invest, getting caught up in ugliness.

Yeah, agree. I posted a couple of times in there too, for the same reason. Just mocking our role as killjoys, even if a killjoy was needed there.

Oh, I understand. Actually thought the lawyers held themselves back quite well. I know I wanted to write a whole bunch, some of which Steve Tasker (non-lawyer) covered later.

:goodposting:

my head started hurting reading that thread

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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

Why are you getting a law degree then?

:goodposting:

Better be getting a full ride. Seems like an expensive proposition if you have no interest in practicing law.

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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

Why are you getting a law degree then?

:goodposting:

Better be getting a full ride. Seems like an expensive proposition if you have no interest in practicing law.

I'm doing the JD/MBA -> cost is less of an issue because of my personal situation. My goal is to run an NBA team as a GM one day. With as many hires with MBAs as there have been in the last 5-10 years, an MBA alone would no longer be a competitive advantage in that market. The JD, understanding contracts well, collective bargaining, labor and antitrust issues...all appear very helpful.

And I've already got my summer job this year because I'm doing the joint degree, so I can cross between the business side of the department and the legal side where I'm working. I'm young enough and it is quite financially viable for me, so taking on both degrees will likely pay off more than only one, in that I will be happier, I'll still have it all paid off within 5 years, and then I have both credentials the rest of my life. Seemed like a no brainer to get each degree from a top 3 school in the world for each program. :shrug:

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They may be a joke at Stanford. At my mid-tier 1 school the whole process was much more competitive than I was used to (worked in the banking industry in my first career).

Thanks. I'll keep trying to talk with older students and Career Services and get a more comprehensive picture.

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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

Why are you getting a law degree then?

:goodposting:

Better be getting a full ride. Seems like an expensive proposition if you have no interest in practicing law.

For people looking to do big things my understanding is that it is common to also get a JD. I had a few guys in my class who attended my law school just to get into a better global MBA program. Both have insane student loans, but are now making insane amounts of money.

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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

Why are you getting a law degree then?

:goodposting:

Better be getting a full ride. Seems like an expensive proposition if you have no interest in practicing law.

I'm doing the JD/MBA -> cost is less of an issue because of my personal situation. My goal is to run an NBA team as a GM one day. With as many hires with MBAs as there have been in the last 5-10 years, an MBA alone would no longer be a competitive advantage in that market. The JD, understanding contracts well, collective bargaining, labor and antitrust issues...all appear very helpful.

And I've already got my summer job this year because I'm doing the joint degree, so I can cross between the business side of the department and the legal side where I'm working. I'm young enough and it is quite financially viable for me, so taking on both degrees will likely pay off more than only one, in that I will be happier, I'll still have it all paid off within 5 years, and then I have both credentials the rest of my life. Seemed like a no brainer to get each degree from a top 3 school in the world for each program. :shrug:

Yeah, again, you're setting yourself up incredibly well in my opinion. Heck, worst case scenario is that you have a fall back plan of a good law job. I don't get the "you better be getting a full ride" sentiment. You're golden, Pony Boy.

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Summer employment search finally over, it seems. Accepted an offer with a major professional sports league, pending the actual start and end dates getting official approval from someone other than the recruiter. Damn this quarter system.

For those with the experience, I have a question for you. I do not want to go into BigLaw. Ideally, I spend my next summer with a sports league, team, or a consulting firm (MBB). I have no desire to ever go into BigLaw and don't plan on a legal career either (I see it as value add to the MBA, not the other way around). As such, is there any reason to go through OCI for BigLaw? It seems like the right call, but there are so few people here not doing OCI that I feel very black sheep-ish.

Really just looking for some positive reinforcement or pointing out of something I am totally overlooking.

Why are you getting a law degree then?

:goodposting:

Better be getting a full ride. Seems like an expensive proposition if you have no interest in practicing law.

I'm doing the JD/MBA -> cost is less of an issue because of my personal situation. My goal is to run an NBA team as a GM one day. With as many hires with MBAs as there have been in the last 5-10 years, an MBA alone would no longer be a competitive advantage in that market. The JD, understanding contracts well, collective bargaining, labor and antitrust issues...all appear very helpful.

And I've already got my summer job this year because I'm doing the joint degree, so I can cross between the business side of the department and the legal side where I'm working. I'm young enough and it is quite financially viable for me, so taking on both degrees will likely pay off more than only one, in that I will be happier, I'll still have it all paid off within 5 years, and then I have both credentials the rest of my life. Seemed like a no brainer to get each degree from a top 3 school in the world for each program. :shrug:

Hope it works out for you. Just know a lot of folks with large law school debt with no end in sight who went to law school on a whim since they didn't know what to do next. Sounds like you have a goal (a tough one but at least a clear goal).

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On an unrelated topic, I made partner in January at my big law firm (NYC based). To be honest, when I started at big law I never thought I would last more than a couple of years and now here I am.

congrats! :thumbup:

sounds like you need an architect.

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On an unrelated topic, I made partner in January at my big law firm (NYC based). To be honest, when I started at big law I never thought I would last more than a couple of years and now here I am.

Happens to the best of us. Congrats!

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On an unrelated topic, I made partner in January at my big law firm (NYC based). To be honest, when I started at big law I never thought I would last more than a couple of years and now here I am.

Wow, congrats, awesome stuff. I forget what firm you're at, but I feel like I remember like yesterday when you were getting out of law school and we all tried to steer you away.

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Question for all the attorneys here. I'm a 3L. I just received an offer to be an entry-level attorney in the federal agency in the exact field I want to work in. It deals exclusively with federal law (this will matter in a second). I didn't SA at a big firm, but through networking etc., I've been able to get to the point where I am confident I could be hired as a new associate at a specific big firm which has a presence in that field next year. I was also recently offered a state court clerkship that would allow me to do absolutely no work in my preferred field in a state I don't really want to settle in. That's pretty much out. As of right now, I'm strongly leaning towards taking the government honors job, but I thought I'd get some feedback first, specifically about the economic realities, but really anything else as well. Thanks in advance!

  • Salary: 75ish for government for the first 2 years, after which it will go up into the 6 figures v. 160 for BigLaw, with increases.
  • Debt: Massive. Roughly 150k by the time I graduate. However, with Public Sector Loan Forgiveness if I took the gov. job, I would need to pay a % of my income for 10 years and then the debt is cancelled. Of course, I'd have to stay at the job or work in the public sector for 10 years.
  • Quality of Life: 40 hour work weeks for the government job. Not so much for BigLaw.
  • Personality Type: I don't ever see myself as a BigLaw partner, for what that's worth. I'm pretty introverted, so I don't know how I'd do at creating a book of business.
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For weighing "economic realities," where is the government job? DC/NY?

I will say my wife had $150k debt coming out of law school and has been in the government since then in DC. She managed during the time before we met, but she was definitely a paycheck-to-paycheck type, until I came around.

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Question for all the attorneys here. I'm a 3L. I just received an offer to be an entry-level attorney in the federal agency in the exact field I want to work in. It deals exclusively with federal law (this will matter in a second). I didn't SA at a big firm, but through networking etc., I've been able to get to the point where I am confident I could be hired as a new associate at a specific big firm which has a presence in that field next year. I was also recently offered a state court clerkship that would allow me to do absolutely no work in my preferred field in a state I don't really want to settle in. That's pretty much out. As of right now, I'm strongly leaning towards taking the government honors job, but I thought I'd get some feedback first, specifically about the economic realities, but really anything else as well. Thanks in advance!

  • Salary: 75ish for government for the first 2 years, after which it will go up into the 6 figures v. 160 for BigLaw, with increases.
  • Debt: Massive. Roughly 150k by the time I graduate. However, with Public Sector Loan Forgiveness if I took the gov. job, I would need to pay a % of my income for 10 years and then the debt is cancelled. Of course, I'd have to stay at the job or work in the public sector for 10 years.
  • Quality of Life: 40 hour work weeks for the government job. Not so much for BigLaw.
  • Personality Type: I don't ever see myself as a BigLaw partner, for what that's worth. I'm pretty introverted, so I don't know how I'd do at creating a book of business.

Location? How old are you? Family obligations?

If you're single and that isn't in like NYC, DC, San Diego, or SF you're probably just fine. In fact, considering that you'd be making more than I did but it would ratio out because I had less loans, you're in the exact same boat I was when I started out. Not sure how it would have worked if I had a family, but working 40 hrs./week at a job I loved with ample free time was pretty damn good living.

Edited by Zow
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25, Unmarried with a girlfriend, and it's an agency in DC.

I'm not terribly familiar with the cost of living or quality of life in the DC area, but if you don't want to go the BigLaw this, to me at least,* seems like an awesome option. I got my first law job at 24 in a government position working only 40 hrs/week and is was ####### awesome.

*Disclaimer: I attended Hamline so a job like this was considered quite good for those of us graduating. For me personally, I didn't have any shot at BigLaw and wasn't terribly concerned wit it as I wanted to do criminal defense. Several in this thread graduated from the top law schools and, from their perspectives, probably view the potential position in a different light than I do.

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A transition from the federal job to private practice at a large firm at a later time may come with a nice signing bonus. Or do the large firms not do this anymore?

Not sure about signing bonuses, but I know that, at least in this particular field, there is a well-oiled revolving door between The Agency and the firms it deals with. I know a lot of entry-level attorneys from the agency can then get hired as mid-level associates at firms.

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25, Unmarried with a girlfriend, and it's an agency in DC.

I'm not terribly familiar with the cost of living or quality of life in the DC area, but if you don't want to go the BigLaw this, to me at least,* seems like an awesome option. I got my first law job at 24 in a government position working only 40 hrs/week and is was ####### awesome.

*Disclaimer: I attended Hamline so a job like this was considered quite good for those of us graduating. For me personally, I didn't have any shot at BigLaw and wasn't terribly concerned wit it as I wanted to do criminal defense. Several in this thread graduated from the top law schools and, from their perspectives, probably view the potential position in a different light than I do.

Very high cost of living. I think the QOL is pretty high. If I move in to a 1BR with my GF, we'd probably split the rent and pay something like $750 each.

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<p>

Question for all the attorneys here. I'm a 3L. I just received an offer to be an entry-level attorney in the federal agency in the exact field I want to work in. It deals exclusively with federal law (this will matter in a second). I didn't SA at a big firm, but through networking etc., I've been able to get to the point where I am confident I could be hired as a new associate at a specific big firm which has a presence in that field next year. I was also recently offered a state court clerkship that would allow me to do absolutely no work in my preferred field in a state I don't really want to settle in. That's pretty much out. As of right now, I'm strongly leaning towards taking the government honors job, but I thought I'd get some feedback first, specifically about the economic realities, but really anything else as well. Thanks in advance!

  • Salary: 75ish for government for the first 2 years, after which it will go up into the 6 figures v. 160 for BigLaw, with increases.
  • Debt: Massive. Roughly 150k by the time I graduate. However, with Public Sector Loan Forgiveness if I took the gov. job, I would need to pay a % of my income for 10 years and then the debt is cancelled. Of course, I'd have to stay at the job or work in the public sector for 10 years.
  • Quality of Life: 40 hour work weeks for the government job. Not so much for BigLaw.
  • Personality Type: I don't ever see myself as a BigLaw partner, for what that's worth. I'm pretty introverted, so I don't know how I'd do at creating a book of business.
Those are good options. if you are considering BigLaw at any point, and you think you can go from one of these jobs to another fairly easily in the future, I'd start with BigLaw. You're younger and will be able to better deal with the hours before you have a family, you can get out from under your debt early in order to facilitate having that family, and you get really good training at most DC firms. Plus, you won't have client development obligations like you seem to want to avoid. If they bring you on as a mid level or senior associate, they are going to be pushing to see if you are partner material from the get go. Just food for thought. Edited by thecatch
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I've been looking for a new job for 9 months now. I expanded my search all the way up to West LA (which is a brutal commute for me) hoping to increase the odds. I felt very good about my chances with a firm that brought me in a for a call back AND checked my references (calls supposedly went well) only to find out that they want to talk to more people first. I'm a bit ####ed off that they talked to the references (including current/former boss) without being ready to make an offer, but I'm not in a position to make an issue of it.

This whole thing is incredibly frustrating. I haven't been hung up on title, seniority or really even salary... I just want a job. But firms won't touch me because I'm "too senior" and I don't have a book of business.

I have a good education, good work background and I'm not even 40 years old yet. And yet I'm completely unemployable apparently. I have no ####ing clue as to what I'm going to do.

:wall:

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Have client facing natural life in prison if he's convicted at trial. Through energy and effort I got the prosecutor to guarantee probation if he pleads. Granted it's lifetime with some nasty collateral consequences. Had a plea deadline of thirty minutes ago. Judge even held the court open until 5 pm to give him every chance to take it. He's a young guy.

We are going to trial. I'm going to drink.

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Any Pennsylvania criminal lawyers? There's a case nearbyn and I'm curious as to what the most likely outcome is:

Two brothers (twins) were out one afternoon in a high performance car. They were not drinking. The driver was reckless, crashed, and killed his brother. He is now being charged with Homicide by Vehicle (third degree felony). Everything seems to indicate that he was a good kid with a clean record and just did something incredibly stupid.

Assuming no prior brushes with the law, in a case like this, what could happen to the kid?

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I love it when supposedly sophisticated clients "reply all" when I bcc them.

:mellow:

That's on you. Never bcc a client. Send the e-mail. Then forward the copy in your sent folder if you want the client to see it.

:lmao:

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I love it when supposedly sophisticated clients "reply all" when I bcc them.

:mellow:

That's on you. Never bcc a client. Send the e-mail. Then forward the copy in your sent folder if you want the client to see it.

I have a few who want to be included. I usually don't mind BCC'ing them because it makes them happier to seem like they are a part of it in real time. That said, I always sent them a warning shot and specifically tell them never to reply to the other parties and always create a new e-mail to send to me.

Of course that isn't perfect. I did have a client accidentally click the wrong reply and sent an e-mail intended to just me, in which he calls the CPS worker a fat pig, to the CPS worker. That was pretty amusing.

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I think Christo's advice seems pretty sound to me.

It's not something I've really thought about, but I don't think I copy clients on much because I'd generally want to write a cover email anyway.

Yeah, I think this is probably preferred. But certainly clients' expectations vary.

This issue does have me thinking and I'm realizing that the majority of the family law attorneys in my jurisdiction actually habitually CC their clients to e-mail communications between opposing counsels. I know one guy does it to signify to me that his client is reading all e-mails and that we should refrain from sarcastic banter (this guy has a habit of joking about the parties or speaking frankly about their reasonableness), but otherwise I don't see what could could come of allowing opposing counsel to see the opposing party's e-mail address.

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I love it when supposedly sophisticated clients "reply all" when I bcc them.

:mellow:

That's on you. Never bcc a client. Send the e-mail. Then forward the copy in your sent folder if you want the client to see it.

I have a few who want to be included. I usually don't mind BCC'ing them because it makes them happier to seem like they are a part of it in real time. That said, I always sent them a warning shot and specifically tell them never to reply to the other parties and always create a new e-mail to send to me.

Of course that isn't perfect. I did have a client accidentally click the wrong reply and sent an e-mail intended to just me, in which he calls the CPS worker a fat pig, to the CPS worker. That was pretty amusing.

If you immediately forward a copy of the sent email to your clients, they are still getting "real time" updates and you completely avoid the reply all mess.

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I love it when supposedly sophisticated clients "reply all" when I bcc them.

:mellow:

That's on you. Never bcc a client. Send the e-mail. Then forward the copy in your sent folder if you want the client to see it.

I have a few who want to be included. I usually don't mind BCC'ing them because it makes them happier to seem like they are a part of it in real time. That said, I always sent them a warning shot and specifically tell them never to reply to the other parties and always create a new e-mail to send to me.

Of course that isn't perfect. I did have a client accidentally click the wrong reply and sent an e-mail intended to just me, in which he calls the CPS worker a fat pig, to the CPS worker. That was pretty amusing.

If you immediately forward a copy of the sent email to your clients, they are still getting "real time" updates and you completely avoid the reply all mess.

True. But then you have the particularly wonderful clients who think you've edited the e-mail or aren't forwarding all of them.

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Where's Henry Ford?

Look for the most empty, godforsaken area in all of south Louisiana. Now find a way to move slightly farther away from anything resembling a democrat. I'm roughly there. Have been for a week and a half, will be for another week at least.

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