(HULK)
(Smash)
Not sure I agree in this scenario. A Dallas 2nd rounder would be a better bet to be earlier than a Philly 2nd rounder, from Oakland's perspective.
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WR Amari Cooper, CLE (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Football Jones
Footballguy
Philly has two 2nds (not sure who the other one is without looking), but there are also believeable reports out that they weren't the only teams interested.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
You could've paid $41 & accomplished the same thing in your scenario.
Dallas almost assuredly paid what they had to. Anything else is conspiracy theory.
BTW, I've been very critical of Dallas. I just happen to LOVE this move.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Riiiight.
The ol' trickeroo, LOL.
No offense, but that's ridiculous. There are believeable reports out that several teams were interested.
Football Jones
Footballguy
There's risk with any deal.
The bottom line is Dallas had a HUGE need for a decent WR that several teams were interested in & they paid what they needed to acquire him.
How this shakes out will be determined later.
Football Jones
Footballguy
We have a WR in Cooper who as a 21 & 22-year old had 1,000 yard seasons. 2017 was a down year, but he scored 7 TDs as a 23-year old with Carr looking shaky & the team trending downhill.
Cooper is STILL only 24 years old & won't be 25 until a couple months before the 2019 season. A rookie WR next year will have ZERO experience & will likely take awhile to develop. And the Cowboys get Cooper now so he'll be fully up to speed next season.
This was a no-brainer considering Dallas' WR corps. It's not like this is going to be a top-10 pick (which Copper was).
It made total sense.
Cooper is STILL only 24 years old & won't be 25 until a couple months before the 2019 season. A rookie WR next year will have ZERO experience & will likely take awhile to develop. And the Cowboys get Cooper now so he'll be fully up to speed next season.
This was a no-brainer considering Dallas' WR corps. It's not like this is going to be a top-10 pick (which Copper was).
It made total sense.
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Chaka
Footballguy
I was kidding with you man.
I am sure there were plenty of teams interested in making the Cowboys do something foolish. While also being interested in Amari at the right price.
Seriously with all the gamesmanship and false rumors floated around by NFL teams during draft season I am surprised you think it's so crazy that it might happen in the regular season. It is possible to do that and still be interested in Amari.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
The deal made sense but many of us feel that Dallas overpaid. Dallas needs a good WR and Cooper has the potential to be good (again). As a long-time Raider fan, I like Cooper and thought he was going to be a top 10 WR. There was potential in the beginning but Cooper has struggled the last two seasons. To be fair, a lot of his production drop this year is more the fault of Carr than Cooper. Tough to catch passes when you are not targeted. But, I have also seen Cooper totally taken out of games by opposing CBs or teams and that shouldn't happen that easily to an elite WR. On paper, Cooper is an elite WR since he has good size, speed, quickness, and runs great routes. Unfortunately, Cooper has average hands (at best) and has lacked desire or fire for the last couple of years.
Being in Oakland the last couple of years could explain Cooper's lack of fire. It doesn't excuse it or make it acceptable but these players are human. It is not a good sign if Cooper does give up so easily but going to another team could be just what is needed to get him moving again and excited to play football.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out this season and more so next season after Cooper has a chance to go through an offseason as a Cowboy.
This can be a win-win. Cooper was not working out for the Raiders and getting a first round draft pick is a gift. Cooper could turn into a great WR for Dallas.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I gotcha, but I find it REALLY hard to believe teams were interested, but only enough to make Dallas give more.
It just doesn't pass the sniff test. For one reason, the Cowboys have a lot of talent elsewhere & needed a WR BAD so I'm not following the logic. If so, you just let Dallas address their biggest issue. DUH.
Like I said, though, it's kind of pointless to grade this trade right now.
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dhockster
Footballguy
When do people overpay for something? Usually when they have a great need to get something. And acknowledging that Dallas may have overpaid to get Cooper does not mean they shouldn't have done the deal. Because they were in desperate need for a WR, it was worth it to them to give up a first.
The Cowboys could have overpaid relative to the market and still made the right move. They are not mutually exclusive.
tombonneau
Footballguy
People keep saying Dallas overpaid. But other teams were offering a second. So they paid what they needed to pay to get him. It's not like they were bidding against themselves or the next best offer was a fourth.dhockster said:
dhockster
Footballguy
Which is basically what I said. Please note that I said MAY have overpaid RELATIVE to the market. If the reports are true that several other teams offered a 2nd round pick, then Dallas did overpay RELATIVE to the market. But they wanted to get him so they paid more than the others were offering. I am not criticizing Dallas for that. I will criticize them if Cooper is a total bust and they gave up a 1st round pick to get him.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Sure, but you always have to pay more than the other guy when multiple teams are involved if you want to get a deal done.dhockster said:
Bottom lime, Dallas paid a price that was in the ballpark (without a doubt) for a big need.
Where this ultimately ends up remains to be seen.
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STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Your numbers don’t add up or you’re being hyperbolic.Skeletore Eh said:
It’s only an overpay if he doesn’t produce. If he produces and the cowboys get closer to winning because they have added a valuable piece of the puzzle it doesn’t matter.
TheCowboys looked around the league for WR help and got the player they wanted. They weren’t getting a better WR who’s as young and talented as he is unless you strike gold in the draft. None of the WRs coming out have his pedigree.
The move makes perfect sense. Maybe they gave up a lot but they got the guy they wanted.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Just FYI, the Raiders wanted a 1st and were not trading him without one. The other teams interested meant nothing. Dallas ponied up what it took to get him and the Raiders got their value.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Yep.
The other teams in it just meant it was a player who garnered a lot of interest around the league.
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
sneakerfreak
Footballguy
Wondering what to expect going forward. Was burnt last year by Amari, went back to the well again this year, believing in Gruden's "we will feed him the ball" crap. I noticed one thing in "on the couch" last week and that was the assumption that Cooper had the most success out of the slot. Was wondering where he mostly lined up in his two first seasons where he produced 1000 yards seasons (I don't watch the Raiders much). I remember last year he had most of his success when they would be more creative with him (in motion, working out of the slot, instead of just lining him up outside where he would often face bump coverage disrupting his routes).
I took a look at PFF (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CoopAm00.htm) but did not see any stats on this. I did notice however that he was targeted much less last season compared to his first two seasons and that his catch percentage was at an all-time low at 50%. This season he's had his best catch percentage of his career (68%) which does give some hope for optimism (depends on whether Dak throws catchable balls I guess) assuming he will see an uptick in targets as well.
It seems most likely that Dallas will line him up outside and not in the slot (Beasley seems pretty locked in at that spot) which is a concern. Have no idea how creative they intend to be in their playcalling but this is Ezekiel's team so low volume for passing is probably expected. On that note Dez Bryant had 132 targets last year, if they intend to feed Amari like they did Dez, owners should be very happy.
I took a look at PFF (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CoopAm00.htm) but did not see any stats on this. I did notice however that he was targeted much less last season compared to his first two seasons and that his catch percentage was at an all-time low at 50%. This season he's had his best catch percentage of his career (68%) which does give some hope for optimism (depends on whether Dak throws catchable balls I guess) assuming he will see an uptick in targets as well.
It seems most likely that Dallas will line him up outside and not in the slot (Beasley seems pretty locked in at that spot) which is a concern. Have no idea how creative they intend to be in their playcalling but this is Ezekiel's team so low volume for passing is probably expected. On that note Dez Bryant had 132 targets last year, if they intend to feed Amari like they did Dez, owners should be very happy.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Reports did state that the Raiders wanted a first for Cooper. Didnt seem likely that the Raiders would give up their best young WR or that anyone would give up a first.
The problem with your $40/$100 analogy is that draft picks are not divisible like actual currency is.
You can't offer a pick exactly equivalent to $41 if you don't own that pick.
A better analogy would be a guy wanting to buy a game ticket on a street corner and he's got 2 $20s and a $100 in his wallet, and the seller has only the ticket.
If the seller won't take $40, and the guy really wants to see the game, then he's going to have to part with the $100.
Football Jones
Footballguy
The main takeaway is it was in the ballpark of what you would expect for a 24-year old WR with Cooper’s past production & no serious off the field concerns.
I get a kick out of the 3rd & 4th round comments like the Raiders were just going to bend over simply because they had someone on the block. Jay Glazer reported as many as 6 or 7 teams were interested in Cooper.
Dallas filled a desperate need with a young guy who has the ability to be a #1 receiver. The draft would’ve been no different, but Cooper won’t need the learning curve a rookie will.
I love the move. How it ultimately works out (in 2019) remains to be seen.
I get a kick out of the 3rd & 4th round comments like the Raiders were just going to bend over simply because they had someone on the block. Jay Glazer reported as many as 6 or 7 teams were interested in Cooper.
Dallas filled a desperate need with a young guy who has the ability to be a #1 receiver. The draft would’ve been no different, but Cooper won’t need the learning curve a rookie will.
I love the move. How it ultimately works out (in 2019) remains to be seen.
Football Jones
Footballguy
But someone else will give $95.
No matter how you slice it, a 1st was in the ballpark.
Considering the need, it was a fantastic move.
What now? The whole premise of your analogy was that the next best offer was $40, not $95.
Football Jones
Footballguy
@davearm
LOL. No, the idea that currency is different than draft picks was YOURS. I was simply applying your logic.
Bottom line, Dallas outbid other teams to fill a critical need. And they did it staying in the ballpark of what’s reasonable for Cooper.
Again, it was a fantastic move, but the actual grading of the trade needs to come later.
LOL. No, the idea that currency is different than draft picks was YOURS. I was simply applying your logic.
Bottom line, Dallas outbid other teams to fill a critical need. And they did it staying in the ballpark of what’s reasonable for Cooper.
Again, it was a fantastic move, but the actual grading of the trade needs to come later.
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
I think I have said this before but maybe this will end the back and forth.
It doesn't matter what any of us think about this trade today from the Dallas POV. Oak won right now since they got their first to build a team for 2020. But, Dallas may win as well but that wont be known for another 12 months. Lets see how Cooper looks next season after having an offseason with Dak and the Cowboy O.
It doesn't matter what any of us think about this trade today from the Dallas POV. Oak won right now since they got their first to build a team for 2020. But, Dallas may win as well but that wont be known for another 12 months. Lets see how Cooper looks next season after having an offseason with Dak and the Cowboy O.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Exactly. That’s the ONLY way to look at this trade right now. We can dissect it later.
Both teams got something reasonable as far as value. I can’t speak for Oakland, but I know Dallas filled a critical need with something they could afford.
That’s a win-win for the Cowboys.
The whole currency discussion began when someone equated this to Dallas paying $100 when everyone else was at $40. There's no $95 offer on the table in this analogy.
I think Oakland was right to move him since he was just not a consistent part of their week to week game plan so getting a cost controlled new pick makes sense. But I still hesitate to frame it in the way you did as a win for Oak solely on the basis it gave them a rebuild piece because had Cooper been a more integral part of their offense he'd have qualified as a building block since he's young. It's not like they are getting multiple young assets back for Cooper, they gave a young asset to get a younger asset that they can pay less for longer.
As for Dallas they can win in the here and now if he's impactful enough to help them win the division and/or if Cooper plays well enough now so that Dallas feels set at WR this off-season.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
We can make up scenarios all day long. It’s still relative. There were a lot of other teams interested so whether we use currency or marbles or whatever, other teams were offering enough to where Dallas had to give their 1st.
Still, the main takeaway is Cooper’s worth relative to what they paid & it’s certainly in the ballpark. The bonus is it was a critical need for Dallas.
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kittenmittens
Footballguy
I think people are saying it's an overpay based on how long the Cowboys control Cooper without an extension.
He's a really good player, but they paid a first round pick for only 1.5 years of him before he hits FA.
Half of a year is also sure to be handicapped due to the mid-season trade. It's hard for new WRs to get accustomed to a new offense and QB that move teams in the offseason, let alone mid season trades...
He's a really good player, but they paid a first round pick for only 1.5 years of him before he hits FA.
Half of a year is also sure to be handicapped due to the mid-season trade. It's hard for new WRs to get accustomed to a new offense and QB that move teams in the offseason, let alone mid season trades...
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dhockster
Footballguy
Maybe it wouldn't have been so critical if the Eagles hadn't poached the Cowboys ability to pick up Dallas Goedart in last years draft. I am sure you are aware he has more TD catches than any Cowboy receiver this year.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Football Jones
Footballguy
That's not a narrative you should be bringing attention to.Maybe it wouldn't have been so critical if the Eagles hadn't poached the Cowboys ability to pick up Dallas Goedart in last years draft. I am sure you are aware he has more TD catches than any Cowboy receiver this year.
You guys have some major issues that could've been addressed with that pick (like your secondary) instead of adding what amounts to another toy on offense (& a backup at that).
Our pick in the 2nd was Conner Williams (our starting LG), who has helped solidify our OL & is a critical component to the success of our offense.
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dhockster
Footballguy
I am very happy with the Goedart pick. And lighten up, Francis, I was making a joke. Didn't you see the smiley face?That's not a narrative you should be bringing attention to.
You guys have some major issues that could've been addressed with that pick (like DB) instead of adding what amounts to another toy on offense (& a backup at that).
Our pick in the 2nd was Conner Williams (our starting LG), who has helped solidify our OL & a critical component to the success our offense.
Football Jones
Footballguy
steelers1080
Footballguy
Amari Cooper, if he averages more than 8 targets a game, will get 1000 yards and 6 TDs over the last 9 games (or be on pace for that from the 8+ target games). He's a great WR that just needed a new QB and a change in scenery.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I agree with the last sentence, although he really needs to show consistency to uphold the opinion that he's great. Certainly has the skills, but way too up and down to be reliable either from an NFL or fantasy perspective.
We'll see -- no question a change of scenery can help. He is moving from being the #1 WR on a team that didn't have a lot of talent behind him at the position to really challenge that status, behind a line that can provide some solid play and a good running threat, and playing with a QB who is also talented but has consistency issues of his own, struggling with strength and accuracy on long balls, and some hesitancy/anticipation issues at times in the pocket.
Which seems to me to be the EXACT situation Cooper is walking into in Dallas.
We'll see. My guess is that your yardage/TD projections are way too optimistic.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I loved the move for Cooper, but I love it more now, LOL.
Philly giving a 3rd for Tate as a 30-year old AND in the last year of his contract shows what it takes to get a decent WR.
I think Tate will help them, but that's a day-2 pick for a half-season rental. And he's not the type of player you'll want to franchise.
Steep price for an older player, but if they repeat as SB champs, it'll be worth it.
In general, I like these aggressive moves, but you really have to be very careful about giving day-2 picks for 8 games, especially with an older player.
The Eagles must feel this is their missing puzzle piece.
Philly giving a 3rd for Tate as a 30-year old AND in the last year of his contract shows what it takes to get a decent WR.
I think Tate will help them, but that's a day-2 pick for a half-season rental. And he's not the type of player you'll want to franchise.
Steep price for an older player, but if they repeat as SB champs, it'll be worth it.
In general, I like these aggressive moves, but you really have to be very careful about giving day-2 picks for 8 games, especially with an older player.
The Eagles must feel this is their missing puzzle piece.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
Yes, they must because they traded their first round pick for him. No, wait, they traded their 2nd round pick for him. No, wait, that's not right they traded their OTHER 2nd round pick for him. Boy, I keep getting this wrong, they went all-in because they traded their 3rd round pick for him, and they will likely get a 4th round compensation pick back for him!! THE HUMANITY!! HOW COULD THEY HAVE GIVEN UP SO MUCH!!!!!!!!
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NeverEnough
Footballguy
I was just offered Dalvin Cook plus one of the following players (Breida, Golladay, Cooper or J. Gordon) for Kupp in PPR dynasty. I love Kupp, but I think I might have to take this, but go w/Golladay. Thoughts?
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Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
Football Jones
Footballguy
I think you're misjudging my post. I like the move in general, but it's a day-2 pick for what will very likely be a half-season rental.
You guys will theoretically get a 4th if Tate signs elsewhere in the offseason, but the compensatory picks are at the end of the round. BIG difference in a day-2 pick as opposed to the end of the 4th. The talent starts dropping off rather quickly in day-3.
Still, if Tate helps you guys win a SB, it will have been WELL worth it.
