Interseptopus
Footballguy
you're missing one big point here, if Cooper becomes the guy he can be (not currently is), then Dallas' pick isnt in the top 15.
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WR Amari Cooper, CLE (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Interseptopus
Footballguy
ok, where I come from "most overrated" usually means no one is more overrated. but I'll carry on
Mr. Landry
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
This is becoming a great thread. Now we are learning that Mahomes is overrated on top of Philly winning the Cooper trade while Dallas may or may not have overpaid for Coop. Not sure if Philly was trying to force Dallas to overpay but that was a brilliant move if so. In any case, it will be fun watching Cooper in Dallas. Dallas always gets attention in the media so this story will have legs for a while.
Even though I am a Raiders fan, I am happy for Cooper. He seems like a good kid and wasn't being targeted by Carr as a true WR1. Cooper did seem to lack fire or competitiveness on the field but what do any of us fans know from watching a player on TV?
Even though I am a Raiders fan, I am happy for Cooper. He seems like a good kid and wasn't being targeted by Carr as a true WR1. Cooper did seem to lack fire or competitiveness on the field but what do any of us fans know from watching a player on TV?
tackle for loss
Footballguy
Sometimes a change of scenery matters. Cooper doesnt suck, he is a 2 time pro-bowler who is only 24 and has had success, but because he wasnt blowing up fantasy scores the last two years, he is now deemed awful by some?
A first is too much, its too much for most stars in the league...Dallas is awful at trading, we know that. Lets move on to Coop now.
The football snobs really get upset when you compare players to others or situations to others. But how was Randy Moss when he was in Oakland? Everyone thought he was done, couldnt get 1k yards, and he had more success then Cooper ever did, but didnt stop the football know it alls from thinking he was done.
Change of scenery and coaching and just over all happiness for Moss, as his own words have said, made him step up his game to break records. Now Coop wont go Moss on us, but the change of scenery and being targeted like a true #1 might help him get back to pro-bowl form.
A first is too much, its too much for most stars in the league...Dallas is awful at trading, we know that. Lets move on to Coop now.
The football snobs really get upset when you compare players to others or situations to others. But how was Randy Moss when he was in Oakland? Everyone thought he was done, couldnt get 1k yards, and he had more success then Cooper ever did, but didnt stop the football know it alls from thinking he was done.
Change of scenery and coaching and just over all happiness for Moss, as his own words have said, made him step up his game to break records. Now Coop wont go Moss on us, but the change of scenery and being targeted like a true #1 might help him get back to pro-bowl form.
Andrew74
Footballguy
You inferred something that was not implied.
The comment made suggested Watkins, not Cooper, is the most overrated WR. Nothing about Mahomes was stated or implied at all.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I feel like the hair splitter has gotten a lot of work here. The original reference was that this was the most over rated WR and the most overrated QB together. Then it was mentioned that "Sammy Watkins would like a word," implying that Watkins/Mahomes is an example of a more overrated WR and overrated QB than Cooper and Dak.davearm said:
I would agree that Sammy Watkins is more overrated.
Now that we've cleared that up we can put that ol' hair splitter away and get back to discussing Cooper
I agree, a change of scenery can do wonders. We've seen it in the past and we are seeing it this year already with a few athletes. Cooper may not be any different, however in this case he's moving from one low volume offense with an average to below average QB to another low volume offense with an average to below average QB. I think this is at the very least a wash for Cooper, which isn't good for fantasy- usually you'd want these trades to be major upgrades for talent that's under-performing. But at least it's some glimmer of hope. He's a decent buy low but I doubt his owners are selling low enough to make it worth it. Guy in my league wanted a high 1st for him. No chance.tackle for loss said:
FWIW I do think Cooper is more productive in Dallas, but how much remains to be seen. If he has a better career than AJ Brown then I think Dallas comes out on top for themselves. I think they would have been in a position to draft him with their 1st pick if they didn't trade it away. If that happens this has potential to be a win-win for both teams involved in the deal. Personally I think AJ Brown has a better career by a long shot
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No, the statement simply said the most overrated WR is playing with the most overrated QB. It did not say that it was the most overrated combination of WR and QB.
There's no "and" stated or implied.
Nobody referenced nor inferred that Mahomes is overrated. 
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Even so..... the 1st round pick, even a late 1st round pick, has more value because of the 5th year option. If Cooper becomes the man Dallas hopes he does and his presence transforms their offense to start winning more games then the Raiders get a chance to grab a great new talent that is locked up for 4 years with a 5th as optional. Meanwhile, the money Dallas has to find to pay Cooper is freed up for the Raiders to make other moves. Even there- still a win for the Raiders. It is why teams are really reluctant to ship off 1st round picks. It's not the talent or production, it's the economics.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I agree that this is a positive scenario for the Raiders, but the other side to that 1st round pick issue is that many 1st rounders bust. Cooper is only a year older than some of the rookie WRs from this last draft, but is much more accomplished. Granted, he hasn't done much the last 23 games, roughly, but he's still had success in the NFL. Raiders could draft the next Treadwell with that pick, and Cooper could go on to have an awesome year and be the staple of this offense for the next 10 years. That's the risk.
However, my main point was to the idea that this was a high 1st round pick no matter what happens to Cooper... the reason Dallas made this deal was because they thought Cooper could help them win their wide open division.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Look, I love Cooper. I think he is a stand out guy and I have been desperately wanting him to fulfill his obvious talent level. He never has. Dallas gave up a #1 for a #1 WR and I don't think Cooper is that guy. Hell, if Mr. Jones doesn't think he had a #1 WR when Dez was young and healthy where Dez could take over games as a #1 WR he sure does not have one in Cooper. Cooper's best years were those where they really worked hard to get him involved and push the ball to him. You could see the plays not with him as the first option but as the only option being put in and called. He just never seemed like the guy that you could put in and know he will go out there and get open and when the ball gets close to him he will catch it. He was inconsistent and never really dominated. And then there are the drops. Crabtree got the blunt of the criticism for drops but Cooper was right there with him.
With all that said- I don't think adding Cooper is going to transform the Dallas offense. I think they will get better with him. The best news for Dallas getting more wins is the Giants giving up on the year than it is adding Cooper.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
If they didn't really want Cooper, why put up a 2nd round pick for him? That is not chump change or frivolous -- that's meaningful even for a consistent producing 1K receiver let alone one who is not. If it was truly more for game theory than really wanting Cooper, they risked giving away a very meaningful and valuable pick and getting stuck with him just on a gambit.
Alshon Jeffrey looks to be back, but Agholor, while talented, isn't dependable, and the rest -- Matthews, Gibson, and Carter -- are unproven/trash. It seems to me that it's an area of need (in addition to WR) to help a floundering team not just potentially compete in the playoffs, but compete in their division right here and now.
Not saying that potentially getting Jerry to bid higher wasn't completely absent from their thoughts, but I have a hard time believing they didn't need receiving help, and that they were serious about it given they offered a 2nd.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
This is where I am. I think Philly fans are obsessed with trolling the Cowboys after they took Goedert. Looking for it wherever they can, rather than admit the Cowboys paid more to get a guy they actually wanted
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Chaka
Footballguy
Who says they did? That was circulating before the Cowboys closed the deal but we only have that rumor and maybe some after the fact statements.
Philly may be thin at WR but they aren't so desperate that they need to give up a 2nd for 1/2 season of inconsistency and the right to pay Amari $14 mil next year. The Cowboys are clearly that desperate.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Love him or hate him that Dallas schedule down the line is juicy.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Now we're into the realm of conjecture. Inverse ("Who says they didn't?") is just as (un)provable, and we're both ascribing how much desperation the Philly brass had around really needing/not needing a WR.
I believe we can both agree that giving up a 1st for Amari was more desperate than not. I love Amari, and only wish him to succeed with any team if not with our Raiders -- but his value is not a no-brainer 1st round pic.
Mr. Landry
Footballguy
You have to forgive him. His "dynasty" is crumbling before his eyes and taking swings at the Cowboys makes him feel better for some reason.
Chaka
Footballguy
Uhhh...not an Eagles fan. Ask @Stompin' Tom Connors, he knows.
But yes the Eagles played the Cowboys.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Evidently, there were multiple teams ready to give a 2nd with one them being Philly (they own two 2nds).
I'm pretty sure JJ, Stephen, & Will McClay know how to only give what they have to. It's likely someone else's 2nd was projected to be better so Dallas had to up the ante.
Any conjecture the Cowboys didn't have to give a 1st is wild speculation at best.
I'm pretty sure JJ, Stephen, & Will McClay know how to only give what they have to. It's likely someone else's 2nd was projected to be better so Dallas had to up the ante.
Any conjecture the Cowboys didn't have to give a 1st is wild speculation at best.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Football Jones
Footballguy
I'm not attacking you, but you seemed to infer Philly pulled some sort of scheme to "trick" the Cowboys into giving a 1st. Let's get real, LOL.
Ask most Philly fans & they'll tell you Roseman tried to get Cooper for what he thought was a fair price for their OWN use.
It remains to be seen what was the smarter move, but make no mistake...Philly wanted Cooper.
Believable reports are out now that several teams were willing to give a 2nd so giving a 1st isn't some whack deal.
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Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
Football Jones
Footballguy
That'll be determined later.
It could very well be a STEAL in all reality.
We'll know a lot more after this season, but the full dynamic effect won't be known until next season.
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Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
I don’t see any scenario where this ends up a STEAL for the cowboys. He may help them but I think that’s a pipe dream
Chaka
Footballguy
I never thought you were attacking me. No worries.
But I'm not suggesting some sort of next level gamesmanship. I'm talking about leaking a rumor, maybe a cursory phone call to Reggie. Everyone knew The Cowboys were the most likely player for Amari so why not try and force their hand?
The Eagles are certainly not shy about trading picks in season. I just don't think it is beyond them to try and get Dallas to give up more. Worst case they end up plucking a player the Cowboys wanted.
The wild speculation is that the teams involved were aware of what everyone else was offering, and how high they had to go to have the best offer.
Why would anyone in this situation gain an advantage by revealing that information?
This notion that team A gets involved in any of these trade/FA negotiations only to drive up the price for team B is way closer to fantasy than reality.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
NFL trades aren't a lot different than FF trades. No doubt the Cowboys were made aware of (by the Raiders) what they had to beat.
It's that simple.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
JJ - "We'll give our 2nd".
Gruden - "We've got a better 2nd on the table" (may even have named the team).
This isn't some blind bid auction on eBay.
Gruden - "We've got a better 2nd on the table" (may even have named the team).
This isn't some blind bid auction on eBay.
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STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
So you’re saying the Eagles organization is just as obsessed with the Cowboys as their fans?
I believe it.
Chaka
Footballguy
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Let’s revisit this in two years. I’m betting you change your mind.Exactly!
I'm also saying that I think more highly of the Eagles front office.
Nearly 40% of first-round players are long-term busts. First-round picks are only insanely valuable IF the player ends up to be very good because you can lock him in for five years at a low rate. But let's not pretend it's a given the Cowboys would have used it wisely. Cooper is at-worst a solid contribute ... at-best he has shown pro bowl talent. It's not as horrific of a trade as others have suggested. I wouldn't have made it but it's definitely got the chance to pay off.Skeletore Eh said:
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More then showing pro bowl talent, he's an actual two time pro bowler.
He's also the last WR to be taken in the first round to post so much as a 1,000 yard season. Not sure if another first round WR has even hit 800 yards since Cooper got drafted.
Football Jones
Footballguy
A 1st isn't anywhere near out of line for Cooper. The simple fact several other teams were willing to give their 2nd is proof of that.
Whether it was an overpay or a steal or somewhere in-between remains to be seen.
Whether it was an overpay or a steal or somewhere in-between remains to be seen.
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
Someone had mentioned this previously, but saying other teams offered a 2 so giving up a 1 is ok is crazy. It’s like saying I had to pay $100 for something because someone else was offering $40
Football Jones
Footballguy
Yeah, except it's an exercise in relativety.
You could've simply paid $41 in your example & accomplished the same thing.
Dallas needed to give a 1st to get Cooper. Considering their WR corps, it makes total sense.
This isn't some whack deal. In fact, it's a long ways from it.
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
Eh. It strikes me as a whack deal. Most football people agree
will be interesting to revisit this at the end of this year and next
Football Jones
Footballguy
You could probably get away with calling it a whack deal if there wasn’t much interest & Dallas still paid the 1st, but we know that’s not the case.
Still, it’s pretty much pointless to do much speculation on value. That’ll be determined down the road.
Chaka
Footballguy
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
I don’t want to go around in circles but we already covered this. Just because team A, B, and C offers $40 doesn’t mean it makes sense for team D to offer $100. It’s an overpay. Admitting so doesn’t renounce your cowboy fandom. You can do it too believe it or not
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Yes, you will sell something for more if more people are interested in buying that item. It does not mean that the person who does buy did not overpay. And kind of the whole point in a team making a deal is to speculate on the value. But beyond that- how do you determine the value of the trade down the road? Does that mean the Cowboys now win the Super Bowl? What if he does great the rest of this year and next year and then the Cowboys are unable to re-sign him because another team outbids for him on FA? Would that mean the value was good or bad? What if the Raider pick is the next great WR... would that change the determining of value?
My point is that your post here is saying a lot without really saying anything.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
"We will give you a 4th, but you can tell Dallas we will give you a 2nd..."
