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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (10 Viewers)

Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Yeah.  I mean, this will be a meaningless preseason friendly for Arsenal tonight.  It will be something more than that for at least some of the All Stars (maybe not so much this year with Pirlo, Villa, Drogba, etc.).  Maybe not the competitiveness of a league game, but something more than a kick around.  I'd yank Ozil or any first choice CB if someone breathes on them. 
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All preseason friendlies are relatively meaningless from the teams result point of view but there are going to be plenty of players for Arsenal who are trying to make an impressions (many of the subs).   There are limited minutes with which a reserve can show what they can do so it would not make sense that these games are complete throw aways for all players.

It will be interesting to see how the older MLS star players treat this.

In that Bayern game we were discussing, Henry put on a clinic in the first half and even when on the bench in the second half you could tell he was really enjoying the game.

 
The playoff system is my own personal gripe with MLS, but it's like those who gripe about Pro/Rel.  It's just not going to change.  I can't argue that the playoff system probably generates more revenue. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Yeah.  I mean, this will be a meaningless preseason friendly for Arsenal tonight.  It will be something more than that for at least some of the All Stars (maybe not so much this year with Pirlo, Villa, Drogba, etc.).  Maybe not the competitiveness of a league game, but something more than a kick around.  I'd yank Ozil or any first choice CB if someone breathes on them. 
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so 90 for wilshire then

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
The playoff system is my own personal gripe with MLS, but it's like those who gripe about Pro/Rel.  It's just not going to change.  I can't argue that the playoff system probably generates more revenue. 
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I believe we are stuck with the playoff system for numerous reasons but I have always hoped the league would create a significant financial incentive during the regular season both in terms of win bonus's and a large pool of money divided up based on where you land at the end of the regular season.  Right now both of these are too small to make any sort of difference

Wynalda has told an interesting story of his first year in Germany.  He said he missed an easy goal that could have won them the game and he said he chuckled a bit in the locker room after the game and a teammate threw he cleats and hit him in the head and cursed him out saying that he just caused them their win bonus. 

 
I wonder about the growing numbers of Americans watching European football -- do they think that the Euro leagues are lacking something with no playoffs or do they think that it's something we should be copying?

 
roadkill1292 said:
I wonder about the growing numbers of Americans watching European football -- do they think that the Euro leagues are lacking something with no playoffs or do they think that it's something we should be copying?
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I think most accept the two systems both have pros and cons and having different systems allows for more variety in sports viewing.

I am not even sure the NFL could ever do a single table format for numerous reasons.

 
roadkill1292 said:
I wonder about the growing numbers of Americans watching European football -- do they think that the Euro leagues are lacking something with no playoffs or do they think that it's something we should be copying?
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We know how Danny Kannell feels:

How can you not love the soccer??! A team's season ends with a tie and then you win the title because another team tied too! Woohoo!!!
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Obviously, this is the purest distillation of my euro snobbery.  What more just way to determine a champion than a balanced schedule of home and homes against every other team in the league?  Particularly when in MLS and the NHL, at least, it's kind of rare that the team you would consider the best over the year wins the title.  In the NBA, the best team probably gets through the playoffs more often than not.  In the NFL, I don't know, probably half the time, but the sample size is small so it's kind of tough to evaluate a 13-3 team against a 12-4 team. 

But I like to think that the best team should be champion.  Not just the team that played best in a postseason tournament.

 
Christo said:
Yep. Week 1 matters just as much as Week 38.
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:goodposting:  

And the relegation battles are friggin' awesome to watch.  Something like Jags vs. Browns in week 16 would be a hell of a lot more interesting instead of just being a throw away game of who can tank the best.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I think most accept the two systems both have pros and cons and having different systems allows for more variety in sports viewing.

I am not even sure the NFL could ever do a single table format for numerous reasons.
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When I said "football" I wasn't really referring to the NFL. But no, there are too many teams for the NFL to do even a single round robin, let along home and away, unless they subdivided the league into appropriate divisions. And I've heard worse ideas. But mostly I think U.S. sports fans are hooked on playoffs like crack.

 
NewlyRetired said:
There are some playoffs in Euro soccer related to Promotion and Relegation.
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true. 

the SF semi-pro metropolitan league I played in used soemthing similar... bottom team was relegated, top 2nd div team was promoted.... second bottom and second from top teams had a one off play-in game. so maybe I just think of it as normal. (relative to playing a whole season AND THEN playing a second short season to decide who wins).

 
roadkill1292 said:
I've always wondered how the fans over there feel about those. 
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The ones in England go all the way back to 1987.  A large part of the current fan base grew up with these and probably don't give them a second thought.  

The team that "should" have been promoted by coming in 3rd in the league only gets promoted roughly 33% of the time historically.   I don't sense the fans feel this is any great injustice.

 
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They call it a playoff, but it's not the same concept as the term is used in US sports leagues. It's a 4 team mini tournament to see who gets the third place promotion slot. 

 
Let's not forget that European soccer contains the CL, which essentially is one season-long playoff system.

As for the regular season, I absolutely love the way it is.  Leicester deserved it last year.  It would have been a shame if there had been a 4-team playoff and Man City would have won the league.  I like it the way it is.

Now this isn't possible in NFL football, but in a league where everyone can play everyone in a perfectly matched 38 game season...it's perfect for this particular sport.

 
roadkill1292 said:
That's an interesting perspective that I kind of like.

Nobody daydreams a day away like I do. It's a wonder I can walk down the sidewalk.
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That's a beautiful quality to have...but it's no "wonder" why Moe is always slapping/gouging you...

 
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Eephus said:
Not gonna happen.
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I think the SEM actually makes it MORE likely to happen since the risk of relegation to ownership can be mitigated by the revenue generated from 40 teams.  How much would the entirety of English football down to the 2nd division be worth?

 
wdcrob said:
I think the SEM actually makes it MORE likely to happen since the risk of relegation to ownership can be mitigated by the revenue generated from 40 teams.  How much would the entirety of English football down to the 2nd division be worth?
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Wait, refresh me on what SEM means so I can make a pithy comment.

 
wdcrob said:
Single Entity M(echanism?).  The owners don't really own the teams -- they're all jointly owned by the league itself.  Or somesuch.
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Oh, well then I like your logic on this. If they don't eventually get around to this, they're gonna end up regretting it.

 
wdcrob said:
I think the SEM actually makes it MORE likely to happen since the risk of relegation to ownership can be mitigated by the revenue generated from 40 teams.  How much would the entirety of English football down to the 2nd division be worth?
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The only way this would work if the total revenue generated by a two-tier system was significantly greater than a single 40 team cluster.  I think the opposite would be true.  Second division clubs would get hurt at the gate and I can't think of another offsetting revenue stream that would compensate.

 
Eephus said:
The only way this would work if the total revenue generated by a two-tier system was significantly greater than a single 40 team cluster.  I think the opposite would be true.  Second division clubs would get hurt at the gate and I can't think of another offsetting revenue stream that would compensate.
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I think the demotion at some time in the future would be more than offset by having a clear path upwards ahead of them. It's not like they're going to Rochester in the International League.

 
Yeah, I agree with Eephus.  I've said it before, I can't see anyway that any league that would be setup in this century would ever have something like Pro/Rel.  It's likely entrenched in Europe, but if you were starting a new league, I don't see how any potential investor would accept the uncertainty.  It does produce tremendous excitement, because the stakes are so high, but there's a reason why it's so easy to fall into administration in Europe.  It's really hard to account for the massive drops in income that can happen.  Players are the least of it.  They have relegation clauses, but just staff and infrastructure.  You've budgeted a scouting, coaching, and academy setup with one set of expectations and suddenly your revenue is toast. 

 
wdcrob said:
Single Entity M(echanism?).  The owners don't really own the teams -- they're all jointly owned by the league itself.  
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The M stands for Management.

It is actually two tiered, the owners do own their own teams and are responsible for any local costs associated with running a team (building and running stadiums, academies, coaching staffs, scouting staffs, front offices etc etc). and they also own a piece of the league as a whole.  The owner of the team keeps all local TV, radio and sponsorship money to continue to run his franchise in the future.

Each team pays 1/3 of their local gate back to the league.  The league then bundles these gate revenues with national sponsorship and TV deals to pay the salary cap for each team.  Any costs above the salary cap are the responsibility of the local owner.  

For example, the cap is $3.66m this year but teams like Toronto are north of $20m in salary and their local owners have to pick up the vast majority of the cost as the league only covers the $3.6 million part.

 
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MLS is not going to be a 40 team league in our lifetime imo (even for the youngins on here).

The max will likely be 32 teams, and they won't hit that number for probably another 15-20 years.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Sounds like l'affaire de Pogba is mercifully nearing completion.  Now I can focus on baseless Arsenal rumors until we bring back Flamini on deadline day.
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until hes signed or the window closes I wont hold my breath.  Earlier he was getting a physical in Mia now hes on his way to LA for it... Agreement on agent fees/no agreement.  Which rumor do you want to follow?

Now sell  :fro: to Moyes!

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Yeah, I agree with Eephus.  I've said it before, I can't see anyway that any league that would be setup in this century would ever have something like Pro/Rel.  It's likely entrenched in Europe, but if you were starting a new league, I don't see how any potential investor would accept the uncertainty.  It does produce tremendous excitement, because the stakes are so high, but there's a reason why it's so easy to fall into administration in Europe.  It's really hard to account for the massive drops in income that can happen.  Players are the least of it.  They have relegation clauses, but just staff and infrastructure.  You've budgeted a scouting, coaching, and academy setup with one set of expectations and suddenly your revenue is toast. 
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Also, Europe's attempt to " counter" this... AKA: "Financial Fair Play"...has  had the exact opposite effect...the rich just get richer, because they already have solid investment/banking...& it's the middle clubs that have to balance the budget every year, with expenditures=player investment, without having the collateral (that the rich clubs already had, thanks to prior investment) before said FFP rule was put into effect...& that's why the big teams are so adamant about a "Super League" .  It's frustrating, because as a Roma fan, they always have to sell their best players, in order to balance the books.  Not sure if any of this makes sense, but that's my take, & I admittedly don't know much about finance/legal regulations..it just seems that decisions are made, not for the benefit of the overall game, but for maintaining the financial status quo.  I'm out of my element here, just my 2¢.  I only see the gap getting bigger, which I fear will hurt the overall lure of "The Beautiful Game"...

TL:DR...#### a Super League

 
NewlyRetired said:
MLS is not going to be a 40 team league in our lifetime imo (even for the youngins on here).

The max will likely be 32 teams, and they won't hit that number for probably another 15-20 years.
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You are probably right, but if they did want to go to a reg/pro set up I would think this would be the way to do it.  

In any case, i love the european tiered setup but also like the usa playoff system for its sports.  

 
It is interesting that American owners are buying teams in Europe and dealing with promotion relegation while MLS continues to sell foreign owners on MLS because of lack of promotion/relegation.

Here is a tidbit for how LA got their big money on board for LAFC

======================================================

Nguyen asked them what they thought about pursuing an MLS team. "They were like, ‘Wait a second: First of all, there's no relegation? All right, you got me!'" Nguyen, 41, said with a laugh. They talked more about MLS' single-entity structure, in which all the team owners were partners, just like in the ABL. "And it snowballed from there," Nguyen said.

 
Kafka said:
Also, Europe's attempt to " counter" this... AKA: "Financial Fair Play"...has  had the exact opposite effect...the rich just get richer, because they already have solid investment/banking...& it's the middle clubs that have to balance the budget every year, with expenditures=player investment, without having the collateral (that the rich clubs already had, thanks to prior investment) before said FFP rule was put into effect...& that's why the big teams are so adamant about a "Super League" .  It's frustrating, because as a Roma fan, they always have to sell their best players, in order to balance the books.  Not sure if any of this makes sense, but that's my take, & I admittedly don't know much about finance/legal regulations..it just seems that decisions are made, not for the benefit of the overall game, but for maintaining the financial status quo.  I'm out of my element here, just my 2¢.  I only see the gap getting bigger, which I fear will hurt the overall lure of "The Beautiful Game"...

TL:DR...#### a Super League
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Yes.  I think everyone who looked at FFP closely knew that its effect would be to protect those teams that already had either a large revenue base (like United) or had the outside investment already (like PSG and City).  It's hard to see how any team could pull a PSG and start challenging for multiple top players with big transfer fees overnight anymore. 

Even among big teams I think there is a fairly stark difference among teams that really understand the system and those that don't.  Chelsea's loan model, IMO, is brilliant.  I don't know why more teams don't operate the same way.  Buy lots of high upside but non sure thing talent in that 2 to 10 million range, loan them out.  Take the ones that pan out to be excellent players and sell the guys that don't.  Almost any sale in that situation, even one for less than they paid, is a black number under FFP because the transfer revenues out are amortized while transfer revenues in are not. 

 
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