Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Mike Tomlin...is it time to go?


GROOT

Recommended Posts

19 hours ago, irish eyes said:

So you're a fan of underachieving and mediocrity

Well, been a fan for 46 years, so yes... more often than not I have been a fan of mediocrity (or less).

Them's the bones. You can accept it, or be a f****** whiner. Personal choice.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's never had a losing season, why are we firing this guy? 12 season record = 123-64-1 (65%)

Made the playoffs 7 of 12 times. Super Bowl twice.

 

Just goes to show perspective. Steelers fans want their coach axed after a winning season. Browns fans excited after a 7 win season.

Edited by The Fearless
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/31/2018 at 9:58 AM, Joe Bryant said:

You keep repeating the "brutal facts of their reality". 

Can you elaborate on the negatives?

On the positives?

 

Bad special teams play-not just the kicker.
Butler's scheme/game plan and inability to adjust game/half time.
Joey Porters lack of developing players.
Not reigning in Ben on his decision making, tough to do but it needs doing.
Lack of discipline and knowledge-letting the other team recover a free kick for a TD.

Edit for Butler

 

Edited by nightmare
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

You keep repeating the "brutal facts of their reality". 

Can you elaborate on the negatives?

On the positives?

 

Negatives:

1 ) Year over year losses against by all accounts what are inferior appearing teams in which Tomlin's team appears based on probability and odds thinking to be the favorite to win.  These losses are during regular season and in playoffs since SB win vs the Cardinals ten + years ago.

The subset of issues to those unanticipated losses:

a)  Failure to overcome team weakness such as suspect secondary and overall defense that has tendencies to give up big plays at mist inopportune moment. 

b) Pattern of poor in game decision making as a head coach (clock mgmt, play calling, substitutions, challenges) 

c) Failure to make in game adjustments in terms of play and coverage schemes

d) undisciplined play/too many penalties 

e) in game communication failure 

f) As a supposed player's coach, appears at times soft on discipline. To be fair however, he has benched players for various infractions, though at times perhaps inconsistently displaying what might appear to be a double standard

Positive:

1) Overall Tomlin has avery good regular season winning percentage but with glaring losses against inferior teams as noted above.

2) As a supposed player's coach Tomlin appears very good at people management with respect to the off the field distractions with which modern players often find themselves.

Bottom line: Steeler fans maintain high expectations relative to playoff contention and winning Super Bowls. For many of the fans that's how they measure success. When the team fails in that regard, the fanbase gets restless and you get the resultant calls for a head coaching replacement  because for many of them the buck stops with the head coach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

What's your opinion of the idea that if things were managed properly, the team would win a Super Bowl every year?

What's your opinion of the idea that sometimes things are managed the exact same way and results may vary? 

In other words, can we assume Tomlin managed things radically differently in the great years than he did in the not great years?

One team can't win the SB every year.  "Managed properly" is subjective. Performance output in football is a product of the system operating tactfully against an opponent trying to defeat you.  The outcome of whether a team wins or loses any one game or the SB is dependent upon countless variables more so than just management from the head coach.  But in assessing HC management performance you could look at key performance indicators and trends. You can look at probability statements pitted against actual performance and form conclusions.

The process of running a football team and playing the football game is a dynamic exchange subject to changing variables. It requires the ability to be both strategic and tactical and decision-making and execution. There for managing the same way in this particular environment does not bode well in terms of overcoming obstacles on the path to achieving the goal of sustained winning and being a SB champ when relevant indicators indicate perhaps you should.

The outputs of coaching performance are subject to way too much variability in football.  The best the Steelers could hope to do is create and sustain a stable underlying system of how to operate a winning organization (winning in terms of how they define longterm success) and make incremental improvements where they assess weakness in the execution of their performance, i.e. identifying the leverage points in the overall operating scheme.  That can be in actual gameplay, game management, that could be in talent evaluation, that can be in drafting, that can be personnel management, that can be media relations, etc. All of these are headcoaching management and leadership skill variables.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Iceman03 said:

I’m sure you’ll enjoy him letting players miss practice and meetings for no reason then offering no discipline for it on your home team. 

Not saying he's amazing, just this is becoming maybe the worst year to be looking for a head coach ever.  Plus the team won 9.5 games.  I'd give him one more shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, pghrob said:

If the AB84 report is true Tomlin really does look like needs to go. No discipline and dishonest about reason a player is not available. 

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/12/31/antonio-brown-dispute-steelers-news-nfl/stories/201812310108

And the last time the hoodie told reporters the truth was? Not everything has to be made into a tabloid story. And count me as one who thinks the Steelers should move on instead of firing the coordinators yet again.

Edited by voiceofunreason
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Joe Bryant said:

What's your sense for how it's split among Steeler fans?

What % would like to see him fired?

You're probably asking this question at the wrong time.  The team was just knocked out of the playoffs in what has to be considered an underachieving season.  I would imagine that recency bias would swing the vote in favor of firing him.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pghrob said:

If the AB84 report is true Tomlin really does look like needs to go. No discipline and dishonest about reason a player is not available. 

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/12/31/antonio-brown-dispute-steelers-news-nfl/stories/201812310108

I'd say that 84 getting benched is discipline.  I dont care that there wasn't this additional media distraction all week leading up to Sunday.  In fact, it could be argued that by announcing AB was being benched for acting like a diva, he was hurting the team with the additonal media noise this distraction would have caused leading up to a must-win game. 

No matter what Tomlin had done in this situation, the pitchfork mob would be mad about it. 

  • Like 3
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pghrob said:

If the AB84 report is true Tomlin really does look like needs to go. No discipline and dishonest about reason a player is not available. 

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/12/31/antonio-brown-dispute-steelers-news-nfl/stories/201812310108

How is benching one of the best players in the NFL "no discipline"?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, AhrnCityPahnder said:

I'd say that 84 getting benched is discipline.  I dont care that there wasn't this additional media distraction all week leading up to Sunday.  In fact, it could be argued that by announcing AB was being benched for acting like a diva, he was hurting the team with the additonal media noise this distraction would have caused leading up to a must-win game. 

No matter what Tomlin had done in this situation, the pitchfork mob would be mad about it. 

Agreed.

This to me seems like a perfect illustration of where we are. 

One of the best players in the league skips practice and is benched for it. 

And the take away is the coach isn't enough of a disciplinarian. :wall:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

What's your sense for how it's split among Steeler fans?

What % would like to see him fired?

Among people I know and trust?  Maybe 10 or 20% want him to go.  I can only think of a few.

But it's becoming increasingly obvious that group of people doesn't have a lot of overlap with the INTARNET RAG0RZ that have been on fire over the last several weeks. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

You're probably asking this question at the wrong time.  The team was just knocked out of the playoffs in what has to be considered an underachieving season.  I would imagine that recency bias would swing the vote in favor of firing him.  

Agreed. I know emotions are high.

Although there's a time element here. If the Steelers are going to fire Tomlin, they have to do it quickly or they miss out as the other jobs are all filled. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, AhrnCityPahnder said:

I'd say that 84 getting benched is discipline.  I dont care that there wasn't this additional media distraction all week leading up to Sunday.  In fact, it could be argued that by announcing AB was being benched for acting like a diva, he was hurting the team with the additonal media noise this distraction would have caused leading up to a must-win game. 

No matter what Tomlin had done in this situation, the pitchfork mob would be mad about it. 

Perhaps because he’s enabled it. Always has been whispers about preferential treatment to certain players. Heck, James Harrison was sleeping in meetings for his duration of his tenure last season. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't call Harrisons last year as a Steeler "preferential treatment". He was vocally unhappy about his lack of playing time and signed with the hated Patriots. 

You can still tell anytime he gets a mic in front of him there's no love lost for Tomlin. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, AhrnCityPahnder said:

Among people I know and trust?  Maybe 10 or 20% want him to go.  I can only think of a few.

But it's becoming increasingly obvious that group of people doesn't have a lot of overlap with the INTARNET RAG0RZ that have been on fire over the last several weeks. 

Among the 20 or so of my college friends I regularly keep in touch with, all of whom are diehard Steelers fans who I've known for about 25 years now, it's about 50/50 regarding who wants Tomlin to stay vs who wants him to go.

I'm on the fence. I don't think he'd be difficult to replace, but with Ben nearing the end and the window likely closing soon, I don't know that now would be the best time to make a change like that and we don't have an assistant coach ready to step in. I don't think Tomlin is a terrible coach, I just think he's terrible at in-game management and clock management, and for a guy who supposedly is such a great motivator it baffles me why the team so often shows up flat and loses teams they should win.

I don't think his W-L record is truly indicative of his talent as a head coach.  To me, he's like a RB who can get what's blocked for him but can't make his own yards. I think Tomlin can succeed with good players (which he's always had, especially on offense), but I don't think he's a good enough coach to take players and make them exceed expectations because of his own limitations.

However, I think that any average NFL head coach could've had the same level of success with the Steelers over the past decade or so, maybe a tiny bit more or a tiny bit less.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that I dont think I get...one if the main criticisms of Tomlin is that the team plays down to bad opponents.   That is a completely legit complaint.  But people are acting like this is a new development that Tomlin introduced.  It happened with Cowher lead Stillers EVERY. YEAR.  Of course it stinks that Tomlin hasn't fixedthis, but I only bring it up because this is not a Tomlin-introduced issue as more than one person has suggested.

I dont know if that is just the reality of parity in the NFL...any given Sunday and all that.  Maybe coupled with the entitled mentality of Steelers' fans used to a winning tradition.  Do other teams have the same issue? Or is it all other "pretty good" teams other than New England have this issue?  Or is this a problem worse in Pittsburgh more so than in other teams who have been pretty successful over the past couple decades? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, AhrnCityPahnder said:

One thing that I dont think I get...one if the main criticisms of Tomlin is that the team plays down to bad opponents.   That is a completely legit complaint.  But people are acting like this is a new development that Tomlin introduced.  It happened with Cowher lead Stillers EVERY. YEAR.  Of course it stinks that Tomlin hasn't fixedthis, but I only bring it up because this is not a Tomlin-introduced issue as more than one person has suggested.

I dont know if that is just the reality of parity in the NFL...any given Sunday and all that.  Maybe coupled with the entitled mentality of Steelers' fans used to a winning tradition.  Do other teams have the same issue? Or is it all other "pretty good" teams other than New England have this issue?  Or is this a problem worse in Pittsburgh more so than in other teams who have been pretty successful over the past couple decades? 

I'm not in favor of firing Tomlin but there was a Steeler fan who posted a very interesting statistic.  I can't recall exactly what it was but I believe the essence was in the past 20 years (I could be off on this), there were 10 road teams who were 14+ point favorites and lost.  3 of those 10 teams were coached by Tomlin.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, fred_1_15301 said:

I'm not in favor of firing Tomlin but there was a Steeler fan who posted a very interesting statistic.  I can't recall exactly what it was but I believe the essence was in the past 20 years (I could be off on this), there were 10 road teams who were 14+ point favorites and lost.  3 of those 10 teams were coached by Tomlin.  

That was me somewhere back a few pages.. 

The stat was that since 2007, road favorites of 10+ points are a combined 60-11 straight up.

Mike Tomlin has coached 4 of the 11 losses. 

That's astounding and it speaks to how well he's historically prepared his team as big road favorites.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/30/2018 at 8:07 PM, Ghost Rider said:

Oh jeez, this question again?  :wall: 

Looking back through this.

I thought with the :wall: maybe this question had been asked and answered many times before in the thread.

Since I asked, I've yet to see an answer outside of "anyone but Hue Jackson."

Is asking the question of who the team would hire if Tomlin were to be fired worthy of :wall: ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, nightmare said:

Bad special teams play-not just the kicker.
Joey Porter's scheme/game plan and inability to adjust game/half time.
Joey Porters lack of developing players.
Not reigning in Ben on his decision making, tough to do but it needs doing.
Lack of discipline and knowledge-letting the other team recover a free kick for a TD.

 

Joey Porter is an outside linebacker coach.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

Is asking the question of who the team would hire if Tomlin were to be fired worthy of :wall: ?

 

Of course not. It's because some folks have no answer - just "it's time to shake it up".

I can relate a little to this line of thinking as a Ravens fan., although on a much simpler scale. When Bisciotti fired Billick, there was no heir apparent and he chose an unknown (in fact, IIRC, everyone thought he'd offered Garrett, who turned him down thank goodness). Many fans just wanted Billick gone. There was talk - led by Baltimore Sun columnist Mike Preston, a notorious blowhard and muckraker - that the coach had lost the locker room and that certain strong personalities among the players had revolted and/or taken over and/or quit listening.

I think there is some truth to this. Sometimes the message grows stale. They had a few stars on defense and garbage on offense (coached by an offensive guru).

All that said, Pittsburgh is in an entirely different place than Baltimore was in 2008. They are in their window with this group to win a title NOW. Unless they are going to punt and go into rebuild, there is no way they can bring in a new regime and win with this group unless they trade 42,000 1st round picks for the NE coach. Their best bet is to ride it out until Ben retires, AB runs himself out of town, and the thing disintegrates.

There are also other particulars unique to Pittsburgh's situation and this coach that are being danced around here.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

I can relate a little to this line of thinking as a Ravens fan., although on a much simpler scale.

Winning cures everything. Ravens are an excellent case in 2018... 5 weeks ago Harbaugh and the Ravens reportedly agreed to part ways after the season... a month later he's reportedly getting a contract extension. Hmm, what changed there?

It just was not happening this year for Pittsburgh. Two close losses with LAC and NOS followed up by apologies from league officiating, a PK falls on his #### with game on the line, a turnover fest in Denver... just wasn't happening this year. Most fans except this (actually 31 teams will eventually accept this).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dizzy said:

Winning cures everything. Ravens are an excellent case in 2018... 5 weeks ago Harbaugh and the Ravens reportedly agreed to part ways after the season... a month later he's reportedly getting a contract extension. Hmm, what changed there?

 

Not to derail, but I don't think Harbaugh is going to sign any extension (& I'm not sure the Ravens are going to actually offer one unless he wins the SB). He'll coach out 2019 under his current contract and then we'll see. That Friday night "news" a week ago really wasn't news, as nothing has actually changed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

Not to derail, but I don't think Harbaugh is going to sign any extension (& I'm not sure the Ravens are going to actually offer one unless he wins the SB). He'll coach out 2019 under his current contract and then we'll see. That Friday night "news" a week ago really wasn't news, as nothing has actually changed.

Harbaugh is another one that just seems wild. 

He'd be unemployed about 2 minutes if the Ravens fired him.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Looking back through this.

I thought with the :wall: maybe this question had been asked and answered many times before in the thread.

Since I asked, I've yet to see an answer outside of "anyone but Hue Jackson."

Is asking the question of who the team would hire if Tomlin were to be fired worthy of :wall: ?

 

I've asked in this board and others and never had a specific answer.  The answer usually boils down to some variety of "Tomlin wasn't on anyone's radar when he was hired, they'll figure it out" which is technically correct,  but also damning of their own position.  

How can you trust them to scout and pick a new coach, when you dont trust them to fire the coach you hate now? 

The other variant of answer you get is "this question is pointless, it doesnt matter who, change is needed".  These sound like the type of people that feel some turbulance in an airplane and then jump out the door with no parachute.  You know, because turbulance is scary and all. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Harbaugh is another one that just seems wild. 

He'd be unemployed about 2 minutes if the Ravens fired him.

Can you be unemployed negative minutes? Because I think he'll have another job before he leaves. 

Oh, and because I'm a pedant, he won't be "fired". He just won't be extended. Or, Baltimore will offer and he'll refuse (more likely, in my opinion).

I've got my issues with him - see: every single team thread in the SP and fans who think their coach sucks at time management and challenging bad calls - but he's a great organizer and he showed me something this year with the changes Baltimore made to get into the playoffs. He didn't have to do what he did and still would have been hired by another team as soon as he could walk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, AhrnCityPahnder said:

One thing that I dont think I get...one if the main criticisms of Tomlin is that the team plays down to bad opponents.   That is a completely legit complaint.  But people are acting like this is a new development that Tomlin introduced.  It happened with Cowher lead Stillers EVERY. YEAR.  Of course it stinks that Tomlin hasn't fixedthis, but I only bring it up because this is not a Tomlin-introduced issue as more than one person has suggested.

I dont know if that is just the reality of parity in the NFL...any given Sunday and all that.  Maybe coupled with the entitled mentality of Steelers' fans used to a winning tradition.  Do other teams have the same issue? Or is it all other "pretty good" teams other than New England have this issue?  Or is this a problem worse in Pittsburgh more so than in other teams who have been pretty successful over the past couple decades? 

We probably can't say its worse in Pittsburgh without data to support it.  It might be more a function of expectations and more is expected of a winning franchise.

The NFL has always had trap games. What are your thoughts on the loss to the Raiders the week before the game with New England?  Possibly looking ahead?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
  • Create New...