Foosball God
Foos
Some all time great defenses they lost to with the exception of the Rodgers loss and this latest Browns loss. But really after they were down 14-0 you knew it wasn't going to be easy at all.
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HC Mike Tomlin, PIT (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter GROOT
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Yenrub
Footballguy
I think the Peyton led Broncos team went on to win the Superbowl not much to be ashamed of there.
The Browns loss was bad, but I’m not sure how much blame goes on the coach when the center snaps the ball over the QB and RB head and they both fail to fall on the ball.
How many of these other losses were due to poor coaching?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Don't forget the 4 picks. How many teams overcome a 5-0 turnover deficit and win, especially against a playoff team?
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Never said all of the losses were bad and sure, players have to make plays. But none of their three playoff wins since 2011 have been impressive wins, and several of their seven playoff losses have been really, really bad.
It's not just a specific snap or a specific decision or a specific interception. It's part of a pattern of underperformance in the playoffs over a decade long period, and the accountability has to start at the top. It's Tomlin's job to have his team prepared to execute and time and time again, they don't in the playoffs. That'd be fine for the Lions. It shouldn't be for the Steelers. And with Ben almost done and our division having Jackson, Mayfield, and Burrow in it, not even regular season success is guaranteed moving forward.
If you take away his name and reputation and I just told you about a random coach with a 3-7 record in the playoffs over the past 10 years, no playoff wins in the past four years, and two home playoff losses since 2017 as big favorites while giving up nearly 100 points, all despite having a HOF QB between 29 and 38 years old the entire time, you'd wonder why he still has his job on such a competitive team. And on most other teams, he wouldn't. Because of the success he had in his first few years and because he's the coach of the Steelers, he's among the most secure coaches in the NFL, but he shouldn't be. He's been living off of the reputation he built with the team he inherited for way too long.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
If Tomlin isn’t a good coach why do you suppose the Steelers have employed him for so long and will be around in 2021?
Do they know he’s not good but are too loyal to admit it, are they too stupid to figure out that he sucks or do they think he is actually a good coach?
And if their evaluation of Tomlin is wrong then how can you have any faith in them to evaluate his predecessor?
Do they know he’s not good but are too loyal to admit it, are they too stupid to figure out that he sucks or do they think he is actually a good coach?
And if their evaluation of Tomlin is wrong then how can you have any faith in them to evaluate his predecessor?
Yenrub
Footballguy
I get that the standard there is much higher than other places and I’m not trying to absolve Tomlin for any blame for the playoff disappointments.
I was bored so I decided to look up how Ben played in those losses. hasn’t been stellar in most of them.
Ben’s 2007 regular season QB rating – 104.1 / Playoff loss to Jacksonville 79.2
2011 regular season QB rating – 90.1 / Playoff loss to Denver 75.9
2014 regular season QB rating – 103 / Playoff loss to Baltimore 79.3
2015 regular season QB rating – 94.5 / Playoff loss to Denver 94.3
2017 regular season QB rating – 93.4 / Playoff loss to Jacksonville 110.5
2020 regular season QB rating – 85.5 / Playoff loss to Cleveland 94.1
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I think the Steelere are stubbornly blinded by loyalty, and in some cases, too much so. I think the organziation values stability and no one believes they'll let him go, and he's not going to be held accountable for the playoff failures since 2011. Noll was a homerun, and so was Cowher. I think Tomlin is a mediocre coach but full of quotable material for TV and still viewed as a success despite a 10 year run of futility in the playoffs that wouldve cost him his job on any other contending team. It's always someone else's fault, but he's the guy in charge.
I find him comparable to someone like Marty Schottenheimer. Go look at his run from 89 to 98 in KC. .600+ winning percentage in the regular season and a 3-7 record in the playoffs.... didn't have a HOF QB. Nice guy, solid coach... but no one would ever consider a great one.
Would another team scoop him up? Sure. And he would improve some teams.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I am surprised that you consider Bill Cowher a homerun given his track record in the playoffs. Cowher had some crushing losses in postseason in games where the Steelers were favored at home. (I know, I was there for all of them. I don't think I was ever sicker than after the San Diego game). Even his Super Bowl victory was in part won by some dubious calls that went the Steelers way.
I understand that your position is that Cowher had sub-par QB play as if that should excuse him, since after all he was the one that built that team, right? It seems to me a good coach wouldn't have waited more than a decade to get a better player for the most important position on the team.
The truth is Cowher's critics up until he won his one Super Bowl were remarkably similar to the arguments you have presented about Tomln and Schottenheimer: great coach during the regular season but disappoints in the postseason. Speaking of Schottenheimer, the Chiefs made the playoffs 7 times out of his last 8 seasons. Afterwards it took them 6 years to return, maybe something to think about.
DISCLAIMER: I am a big Bill Cowher fan and not a particular fan of Schotts. I am just trying to illustrate a point. Making a change for change sake is not necessarily a good thing. If there is someone better to replace him then I am all for getting rid of Tomlin but so far I haven't heard a single name mentioned.
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Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...he's one of those guys that before you criticize look around the league and see how many coaches you would rather have than him (it's not many)...as a Patriot fan I do think he can be bull-headed with his game-planning of this is how we play and we don't change because I saw it in action in many big games where BB undressed him because he knew exactly what the Steelers were gonna do...that being said I've really grown to respect the overall job he's done there and how many quality players that have been developed during his tenure while maintaining stability in a league that is often set-up for that not to happen...Coaches get judged by results and a .650 winning % over 14 years with zero losing seasons is very impressive and while there are certainly areas that probably frustrate some Steeler fans he is a top-tier NFL Coach IMO.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Cowher was only a game under .500 as a coach in the playoffs with teams led by Kordell, Tomczak, and O'Donnell. He was 5-1 in the playoffs with Ben as a rookie and a 2nd year QB. I wish they would've address the QB situation differently and part of that definitely falls on Cowher, but Cowher was an exceptional coach getting the most out of those teams before a 6-10 season allowed them to draft Ben. The SD loss sucked, but his other AFCC losses were to Brady and Elway, and that's just too big of a gap to overcome.
Again... Tomlin's only real success in the playoffs game in the 4 years after he inherited a ready-made Super Bowl contender that Cowher built. His last 10 years have been nearly identical to what Schotts did in KC. Based on the level of talent he's had and what you've seen of his coaching over the past 10 years and the playoff record he has since 2011, do you really think he'd still be the coach of just about any other team in the NFL with championship aspirations? Competitive/contending teams would've made a change, and coaches who've had MORE success recently have been let go for less. His job security is only there because of the Steelers' desire for continuity.
I wouldn't have a problem if the Steelers replaced Tomlin and the hire wasn't a hit, long term. I'm not able to name names, but if they'd let him go (which they won't), the list of candidates would surely have some interesting names on it. I mean, when they hired Tomlin, HE was just one of those "other" names on a list that included Ron Rivera and Russ Grimm. At least they'd be trying to improve on what Tomlin has proven to be in the playoffs over the past decade since his team has really become his. Tomlin isn't a good in-game coach, and unless they somehow draft or trade for a franchise type by next year or 2022, I think his regular season success is about to fall off dramatically as the division has gotten so much stronger - especially at QB.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
He's had more success than a lot of coaches in the regular season, no doubt other teams would love to have him and some would be lucky to. Other would think they are, but wouldn't be.
But, I'd love to know what some of those "lesser" coaches could've done with the talent Tomlin has had to work with. Is he a great coach because his teams have had great talent and made the playoffs with regular season success coming out of a division with the Browns and Bengals in it? Or is he an overrated coach because of his playoff futility over the past 10 years with teams led by a future HOF QB? It's probably a lot of both.
That's why he's basically a more quotable version of 1990's Marty Schottenheimer to me who was lucky enough to have a 4 year run before that with a veteran laden, experienced Championship roster his predecessor built.
Boston
Footballguy
I think you could fit most good coaches into a Tomlin/Shotty world...look at Andy Reid...he was a similar type of Coach but has suddenly become the next Bill Walsh...I wonder why? Not to go off on a tangent but when it comes to big time NFL Coaches there is almost always one constant...they have a big time QB...look at the list...BB/Brady, Lombardi/Starr, Grant/Tarkenton, Shula/Marino-Griese, Walsh/Montana, Noll/Bradshaw, Madden/Stabler, Johnson/Aikman, Stram/Dawson, Brown/Graham, Landry/Staubach, Levy/Kelly...it is amazing how constant this is and is one of the reasons Joe Gibbs is one of the more under-rated people in NFL history and Shotty is actually not given enough credit because both accomplished what they did without being tied directly to a H-o-F QB for a good portion of their career (Cowher fits that category as well)...I fully understand Tomin has flaws but the grass is not always greener and I think the room for error thinking you can replace him him is gigantic.
steelers1080
Footballguy
The two main poor coaching decisions were punt on 4th and 1, and Marsh. He was clearly getting owned on every single play but they just kept him out there. Idc how he did in practice, he sucks bro. Just pull him and put Ola there.
Also, I just don't see any candidate that I'd rather have than Tomlin at the moment. If the Steelers can hire an OC that actually adapts to situations instead of calling a quick FB handoff two 3rd and 1's in a row, then the Steelers have a better shot.
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Sam Quentin
Footballguy
random hot takes
IMHO, Tomlin is above average coach which is probably good enough and if you replace him you have a better that the next guy is worse , not better.
Ben is a great QB, but he has always lacked, from my view as a distant observer, that extra hunger. Every year he wants to retire. I don’t see him studying as hard as a Manning or a Rodgers or playing with the fire of a Brady....
Sean Payton (who has been mentioned in this thread) is overrated IMHO. How many disappointing playoff losses has he helmed? How many 7-9 finishes? All, mostly with Drew Brees...
IMHO, Tomlin is above average coach which is probably good enough and if you replace him you have a better that the next guy is worse , not better.
Ben is a great QB, but he has always lacked, from my view as a distant observer, that extra hunger. Every year he wants to retire. I don’t see him studying as hard as a Manning or a Rodgers or playing with the fire of a Brady....
Sean Payton (who has been mentioned in this thread) is overrated IMHO. How many disappointing playoff losses has he helmed? How many 7-9 finishes? All, mostly with Drew Brees...
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
That I understand.
My point is more about the lack of playoff success Tomlin has had DESPITE having a HOF QB throughout his entire coaching career so far.
His immediate run of success with the talent Cowher had assembled looms large in his resume. It's basically what his entire reputation is built on because otherwise, he's Schottenheimer. But his last 10 years have been a failure with the amount of talent he's had to work with. 3-7 in the playoffs with that talent should be unacceptable. Playoff appearances are nice, but they've been almost assumed with his level of a talent and a mostly weak division. He should be held to a higher standard than that.
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
Or maybe those teams weren't as talented as you think and it was a good coach getting the most out of them during the regular season but then getting exposed in the postseason? In reality it is probably a bit of both.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
That's a valid position to take, but one I strongly disagree with. Looking at the teams they've lost to, and specifically HOW they've lost to them in a lot of cases, it often speaks to a lack of discipline and/or a lack of preparation. Accountability should start with him, and 3 playoff wins in a decade just shouldn't cut it. The awful Steelers of the 80's got just as many playoff wins and AFC Championship appearances as Tomlin's teams did between 2011 and 2020. That's insane.
I think I've made my opinion well known, gotta bow out of this debate without cluttering things up even more lol
Good talk, guys!
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Yeah I have been here mainly to be the devil's advocate (ironic considering my username!) but I think we've exhausted the topic.
Boston
Footballguy
Tomlin is 8-8 postseason...when you look at other Super Bowl winning coaches not named BB that are considered high-level Coaches here are their records...Reid is 15-14, Pete Carroll is 11-10, Harbaugh is 11-7 and Sean Payton is 9-7...Tomlin seems to fall pretty much in line with the norm here.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Can't resist... one more
5-2 in his first 4 years after taking over Cowher's roster filled with experience, Championship pedigree, and talent.
3-6 in his last 10 years, with wins only over teams led by Matt Moore, Alex Smith, and AJ McCarron. Say what you want about the talent on those teams, but most would agree there's been plenty of it being led by a future HOF QB.
0-2 in his last 4 years, giving up 93 points, both losses at home as big favorites. Blame the defense, blame turnovers, blame lack of preparation, blame lack of discipline. Plenty to go around, but accountability for the good and the bad starts with the coach.
Like I said, his overall resume is fine. But look closer, and you see a guy who only had PLAYOFF success with a roster he inherited, and it's be a steady decline ever since that roster started really turning over. The media, the Steelers ownership, and his press conferences keep his reputation intact, but they've been reliably good in the regular season and disappointing in the playoffs for a decade now.
Boston
Footballguy
I guess we're at a dead end...good luck replacing him...as a Pats fan I hope you run him out of town.Can't resist... one more
5-2 in his first 4 years after taking over Cowher's roster filled with experience, Championship pedigree, and talent.
3-6 in his last 10 years, with wins only over teams led by Matt Moore, Alex Smith, and AJ McCarron. Say what you want about the talent on those teams, but most would agree there's been plenty of it being led by a future HOF QB.
0-2 in his last 4 years, giving up 93 points, both losses at home as big favorites. Blame the defense, blame turnovers, blame lack of preparation, blame lack of discipline. Plenty to go around, but accountability for the good and the bad starts with the coach.
Like I said, his overall resume is fine. But look closer, and you see a guy who only had PLAYOFF success with a roster he inherited, and it's be a steady decline ever since that roster started really turning over. The media, the Steelers ownership, and his press conferences keep his reputation intact, but they've been reliably good in the regular season and disappointing in the playoffs for a decade now.
crushedspirit
Footballguy
Hopefully he hits the pot of gold with assistants and draft picks, because coach Mike needs all the help he can get come playoff time. He hasn't had the quality of players or assistants since what was left for him in 2007.
steelers1080
Footballguy
Yeah, I've seen a lot of "Get rid of Tomlin!" but they don't frequently point out who they would replace him with. I'm sure there are coaches out there who could be better than Tomlin, but I don't think the odds are great that we'd pick the right ones. I'd be surprised if several of the coaches being hired right now aren't let go before Tomlin is.
Even if this team rolls out a rookie or Mason Rudolph, it will still be good enough to compete for a playoff spot. We would have made the playoffs last season if they had the 7 team playoffs back then.
I get frustrated with Tomlin at times, especially when it comes to Challenges and when I think he should be more aggressive, but I still think that overall he's better than a majority of the other coaches available. Every coach has flaws; Sean Payton has a Taysom Hill problem, Andy Reid wasn't as hot before he got Mahomes, Kyle Shanahan lost with a 28-3 lead (as OC). Steelers fans have really high expectations, and I think that Tomlin should be given at least 2-3 years to try and reach the AFC Championship/Super Bowl again. This is a time of transition for the Steelers and I want to see how Tomlin manages it.
I think how quickly the AB situation fell apart after he left the Steelers shows how good a coach Tomlin is. AB had a FB video, and was definitely me-me-me, but after he left the Steelers he spiraled quickly. I think it shows how much Tomlin was able to keep him in line, while Gruden couldn't even get him to show up.
Things could be more difficult the next few years though, now that it appears that the Browns and Cincy might be legit with Baker and Burrow. I think the Browns will finally start to have cap issues soon with all the high 1st round picks they have on the team, but both teams are poised for success now that they have their QB in place.
crushedspirit
Footballguy
I also want to see what he does post-Ben era, and we all know coach Tomlin will be here for years. As for hires, I have been high on Joe Brady. What he did with a very average QB in his first year at Carolina needs to be commended. We already acknowledge what he did at LSU with Burrow and that record setting offense.
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Boston
Footballguy
Could not agree more about AB...the fact Tomlin handled him that long was very impressive...the issue I see with Tomlin as a non-Steeler fan appears to be his belief that the Steelers can just show up with their talent and if they put the effort in they will win...some of the games against the Pats have been almost comical as they did what they normally do and he made it easy for BB and Brady...IMO that is the area he needs to grow but at this point in his career that may not happen...and that is not uncommon with a lot of Coaches as the belief in their ability can be both a blessing and a curse.
crushedspirit
Footballguy
Excellent point, and why I truly believe Tomlin is a coach that needs quality assistants around him to cover up for his shortcomings. He walked into LeBeau and Arians, and we know how that worked out.
Boston
Footballguy
You could see it when this season headed south and it was like groundhog day with their offense...he is a very good leader and can get the most out of his players but some good Assistants in the x and o department would really help this team.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
The repetitive play calling on offense was frustrating to no end. That said, it's possible that a better OC can manage that more appropriately and actually gear a strategy specific for the team they're facing. On defense they do mix things up a little bit, and their 2nd half strategizing usually results in clamping down on opposing offenses. It took years but we finally have the skill on defense to actually go man to man which is required against some teams. We were pretty mediocre for a while after Shazier went down.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I have to be one of the biggest Doubting Thomas types when it comes to Mike Tomlin but if I am being honest, Tomlin has done more to earn my respect in the last 1-2 seasons than the other 8-10 combined. I gave him about as much credit for Pitt winning a SB under him as I did MM in Green Bay but the last couple seasons and his ability to navigate and I think showcase his leadership and forward thinking in acquiring Fitzpatrick which never left the dude's radar from the minute they didn't get him in the Draft, he never took his sights off of him...I say this with respect, Tomlin will eventually be a Front Office Force if he ever decides to run that way. Steelers will have a hard time filling the shoes that filled for Cowher which filled for Noll? I can't think of any other Head Coaches which if you go back to when Noll first was coaching, are really looking at 3 Head Coaches since 1969? I almost gotta sit down when I think about that.
I think Tomlin has proven he is better than most, maybe not as good as some but certainly better than most and that's better than most NFL Head Coches...how many have come and gone since Tomlin was installed as Head Coach for the Steelers? Hundreds? Probably...
I think Tomlin has proven he is better than most, maybe not as good as some but certainly better than most and that's better than most NFL Head Coches...how many have come and gone since Tomlin was installed as Head Coach for the Steelers? Hundreds? Probably...
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
How do Steelers fans grapple with the fact you started 11-0? Miami went 11-0 once in 1984, actually they did it in '72 but in '84 they were an offensive juggernaut for most of the season, I saw one of Miami's two losses towards the end of the season in the Orange Bowl vs the Haynes and Hayes Raiders, they bested Dan that day.
Miami managed to make it to a Super Bowl, you all seemed to turn into the Hindenburg at the end. I'm curious why the whole staff is looked at like they need to go? Is that true or something the fans feel? Regardless of the results, are fans wanting Tomlin to move one?
3 Head Coaches since 1969, safe to say Pittsburgh does not just hire anybody and they don't like change at the coaching position.
steelers1080
Footballguy
I can only speak for myself and a few close friends, but this season felt like a mirage after key defensive injuries. Most of the games won during that 11-0 streak felt like they were going to be losses, even when we had commanding leads, and we often let teams come back to keep it close. This never felt like a dominant team that was steamrolling bad teams. So when the losses started to pile up it felt more like, "yeah this was due", not "what the heck is going on".
A lot of the negative sentiment towards the coaching staff (from my group of friends) is geared towards the OC because of the stale playcalling and complete lack of innovation. The plays were so predictable to regular fans, and if we can guess what's coming you can be sure as hell that the opposing team knows what's up.
The general gist seems to be that the season fell apart because we lost key defenders (Bush & Dupree, then Alualu and Spillane for a bit), and we never changed on offense. The Ravens had our offense pegged and we never altered it in the last 6 weeks, we just kept doing short pass after short pass. The only success we had at all was during the no huddle when Ben would take over.
As for the Defense, overall they have been pretty great the last few years, but they've suffered key injuries to stars and haven't been able to maintain because of lack of depth (one issue as a result of salary cap hell). The Steelers usually have adjustments after halftime and shut teams down which makes me have faith in Keith Butler. He's on short term deals, so we could see turnover there too soon since he's getting older.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
3 Head Coaches by my math since 1969 by the Steelers, Front Office values consistency and not changing the culture much around there. That's one way to look at it IMHO.
But to your point, Tomlin is a guy who if he were let go, that could trigger a couple firings immediately of coaches already in place, perhaps even just hired by certain franchises. Tomlin would be the biggest head coach to walk the streets since maybe Andy Reid who went to 5 straight NFCC but it was time to leave Philly for him. I can't see Tomlin unemployed for even 2 minutes.
habsfan
Footballguy
"Better than most" is a quandary. When you are considering moving on from a Tomlin, you need to acknowledge that he's an instant and significant upgrade for a number of teams. That has to give you pause. Then there's the Andy Reid / Philly factor. Sometimes it is "time to go" solely because change is needed but you better be sure because you can quickly find yourself in a coaching turnstile for years.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Good post, also wanted to add that both Philly and KC managed to find their way to Lombardi trophies after Reid moved from Philly to KC, both teams and that probably doesn't happen often.
I heard this the other day and I will throw it out there, not saying it will happen but I could see Belichick waiting until all the good coaches are gone and then announcing his retirement after the Super Bowl, end of Feb or something before the Draft, would be so Belichick, getting back at Kraft for being forced to trade potential Brady takeovers at QB and then being handed Cam Newton which did not work out very well.
If BB were to do that, I could see a late series of dominos falling and perhaps Tomlin would see an opening he never thought was going to be open and maybe Tomln himself would like a change of scenery. But honestly, the Rooneys seem like good people to work for and as long as you work hard and get pretty good results they tend to keep you. The Rooneys seem to really detest coaching changes and it is one of the hallmarks that have made them great the last 50 years. Few hiccups but it's mostly been a good ride for y'all.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
0% chance imo. I think he still has to prove he was more than just along for the ride with Brady. Whenever he does walk away either his son or Josh McDaniels will be the new HC, so it doesn't really matter when he walks away.
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
I am a huge Tomlin fan, but if he isn't willing to get rid of Canada, it is time to go.
Wigglytuff's Gruff
Footballguy
The ultimate mid table, bland, nothing team. Good enough to keep the relative status quo intact, not good enough to challenge legitimately.
A real slog to follow this team at the moment in my opinion.
A real slog to follow this team at the moment in my opinion.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Have to fire canada or have someone else call the plays.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Sometimes, you need to take a step back to take two steps forward. Eagles did it with Andy Reid.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Yup, time to ship Canada to Canada.
Was watching lumbering Najee and average at best Pickett last night and got to thinking of Colbert as that was his last two first round picks.
I hate to bash Colbert, I'll always be grateful for the SB wins he helped me experience. I also understand there is more to the draft then round one but just the same I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team that did so poorly with their first round draft picks over his last 10 years as Colbert/Steelers.
By my count in Colbert's last 10 years he had 2 hits in round one, and one of them was Shazier. If you want to say the jury is still out on Pickett that's fine. I contend the best thing about Pickett is he might give you mediocre starting QB play on a fairly cheap contract.
I bring this up in the Tomlin thread to say the poor use of those first round picks takes it's toll and when you remove Shazier as a good draft pick you are just left with one hit in the last 10 years. By and large it's been a tremendous waste of young cheap labor and again at some point that makes the job of the head coach more difficult.
Now maybe Tomlin was the driver behind a lot of those picks? I don't know. I know I loved what I saw from Khan this off-season, it felt very different, and I think the team is on the path to restoring the quality and depth of the roster which will make Tomlin's job easier.
I hate to bash Colbert, I'll always be grateful for the SB wins he helped me experience. I also understand there is more to the draft then round one but just the same I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team that did so poorly with their first round draft picks over his last 10 years as Colbert/Steelers.
By my count in Colbert's last 10 years he had 2 hits in round one, and one of them was Shazier. If you want to say the jury is still out on Pickett that's fine. I contend the best thing about Pickett is he might give you mediocre starting QB play on a fairly cheap contract.
I bring this up in the Tomlin thread to say the poor use of those first round picks takes it's toll and when you remove Shazier as a good draft pick you are just left with one hit in the last 10 years. By and large it's been a tremendous waste of young cheap labor and again at some point that makes the job of the head coach more difficult.
Now maybe Tomlin was the driver behind a lot of those picks? I don't know. I know I loved what I saw from Khan this off-season, it felt very different, and I think the team is on the path to restoring the quality and depth of the roster which will make Tomlin's job easier.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
This thread again?
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