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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (5 Viewers)

Andy Dufresne said:
Every time I read about Gruden being high on a player I remember how much he frothed over EJ Manuel.

Gruden is the biggest fraud there is.
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From that article. 

First of all, Manuel is the one quarterback in this class -- with Geno Smith and Matt Barkley close behind -- that fits the bill when you talk about a quarterback who can be put into any type of offense. 

 
A lot of the best football scouts shoot air balls when it comes to QB prospects

I'm rooting for Deshaun. Hopefully he can go to a good situation and learn from a good coach. Watson going to San Francisco is appealing. 

 
I'd like to see Watson slip a little bit. I think he'd be a great fit as an heir apparent for Brees in New Orleans, though I'm not sure they'd take a QB in round 1.

 
An NFL scout speaking to the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel said Clemson QB Deshaun Watson is better than Dak Prescott.

"You can say he’s better than Dak Prescott," the scout said. "Total winner. Highly poised. Top intangibles. Lot of predetermined throws. Going to need a lot of work, like all these guys from the spread." Watson went 32-3 in college, with the 32nd win coming in January in the national title against Alabama. "He’s No. 1," a second scout said. "He’s played the best in the biggest stages. His best thing is leadership. He’s a winner. He has to develop into a pocket passer." Scouts don't question his arm, but they do have reservations about his decision making and progression reading. "He’s No. 1 just because he’s a better leader," said a third scout. "Like the kid a lot. His character is really, really good. His mechanics are below average. He threw 17 interceptions this year, which is terrible for a first-round quarterback, and a lot of them were really bad decisions. Just throwing the ball up for grabs."

 
 
Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel 
Apr 23 - 1:26 PM
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Andy Dufresne said:
About his 17 interceptions last year.

Matt Ryan threw 19 in his final college season. I'm just saying..
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Completely different situation.  The vast majority of Ryan's pick came because of his lack of arm strength on passes.  He had to arc the ball more and it fluttered when he threw deep.  Ryan also played under center and dropping into a pocket throughout college.

Watson's picks are poor judgment and accuracy issues.  He is also going to have to do a ton of work on his mechanics as well as learning from scratch to play under center.  Not saying it can't be done - it certainly can, but together with the mechanics and judgment/accuracy issues makes me much more leery.  And personally I really like the kid - he's a very hard worker, completely committed to getting better, and a real leader.  

It's just going to be more of an unknown if he can pull it off at the pro level, but if he can't it won't be because he didn't do everything possible to succeed.  I got burned by the almost exact same type of player in EJ Manuel and am wondering if this isn't going to end similarly.

.

 
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Bronco Billy said:
Andy Dufresne said:
About his 17 interceptions last year.

Matt Ryan threw 19 in his final college season. I'm just saying..
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Completely different situation.  The vast majority of Ryan's pick came because of his lack of arm strength on passes.  He had to arc the ball more and it fluttered when he threw deep.  Ryan also played under center and dropping into a pocket throughout college.

Watson's picks are poor judgment and accuracy issues.  He is also going to have to do a ton of work on his mechanics as well as learning from scratch to play under center.  Not saying it can't be done - it certainly can, but together with the mechanics and judgment/accuracy issues makes me much more leery.  And personally I really like the kid - he's a very hard worker, completely committed to getting better, and a real leader.  

It's just going to be more of an unknown if he can pull it off at the pro level, but if he can't it won't be because he didn't do everything possible to succeed.  I got burned by the almost exact same type of player in EJ Manuel and am wondering if this isn't going to end similarly.

.
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it also took Matty Ice a few years before he got good. Not to mention having a HOF TE and pro bowl WR and RB.  Which isn't insulting Matt as much as it is saying we need to use patience with these guys.  Nobody should expect Watson to have the same quick success as Dak Prescott, Winston or Mariota. 

 
Bronco Billy said:
Completely different situation.  The vast majority of Ryan's pick came because of his lack of arm strength on passes.  He had to arc the ball more and it fluttered when he threw deep.  Ryan also played under center and dropping into a pocket throughout college.

Watson's picks are poor judgment and accuracy issues.  He is also going to have to do a ton of work on his mechanics as well as learning from scratch to play under center.  Not saying it can't be done - it certainly can, but together with the mechanics and judgment/accuracy issues makes me much more leery.  And personally I really like the kid - he's a very hard worker, completely committed to getting better, and a real leader.  

It's just going to be more of an unknown if he can pull it off at the pro level, but if he can't it won't be because he didn't do everything possible to succeed.  I got burned by the almost exact same type of player in EJ Manuel and am wondering if this isn't going to end similarly.

.
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Are really serious with this? Ryan's interceptions weren't his fault because of "lack of arm strength," but Watson's were because of poor judgement? You realize that doesn't even make any sense.  Where are you getting this stuff? 

Here's the actual footage of Watson's interceptions. Find the Ryan interceptions so we can compare. 

http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/first-sound/2017/02/15/deshaun-watsons-17-interceptions/

 
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The issue now with players coming out is there is an unlimited amount of information, rumors, unnamed sources etc.  It clouds everything and makes everyone feel like they have it figured out when they've barely even watched the player take the field. 

 
flapgreen said:
Are really serious with this? Ryan's interceptions weren't his fault because of "lack of arm strength," but Watson's were because of poor judgement? You realize that doesn't even make any sense.  Where are you getting this stuff? 

Here's the actual footage of Watson's interceptions. Find the Ryan interceptions so we can compare. 

http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/first-sound/2017/02/15/deshaun-watsons-17-interceptions/
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No, I wasn't serious. :rolleyes:  

Where exactly did I say Ryan was not responsible for the picks he threw?  The cause was different.  You want to discuss differing opinions of players, that's fine.  Don't make up fiction about what I posted to suit your position - especially when you're quoting me while you do it.

You seem to have a real burr under your saddle with me.  I'm not sure why.  I'd prefer that you'd stop sinking into your irrational diatribes and instead try to discuss opinions, but I get the feeling you're incapable of that given how certain you are that your opinions are facts.  I'm just going to stop responding to you, so if you're wondering why I'm ignoring your attacks on me from this point forward, you'll know why.

Have a great day.

 
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Andy Dufresne said:
Every time I read about Gruden being high on a player I remember how much he frothed over EJ Manuel.

Gruden is the biggest fraud there is.
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I do not remember him ever being down on one of the top QB prospects ever.

I happen to agree with him on Watson, but his praise is meaningless if every QB that appears on his show is "going to be great".

 
Has the fact that Watson regressed during his final season compared to the previous season been discussed in this thread? It's extremely troubling for a top prospect 

 
maf005 said:
Has the fact that Watson regressed during his final season compared to the previous season been discussed in this thread? It's extremely troubling for a top prospect 
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Depends on if you think he did.

Link

Comparing 2015/2016 ...In 2016 he threw 88 more passes, 484 more yards, for .8% less accuracy, with 6 more TDs to go with his 4 more INTs for a rating of 151.1 (versus 156.3 in 2015).

He rushed many fewer times, but then you WANT to see that.

Oh, and his team won the championship.

 
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Andy Dufresne said:
Depends on if you think he did.

Link

Comparing 2015/2016 ...In 2016 he threw 88 more passes, 484 more yards, for .8% less accuracy, with 6 more TDs to go with his 4 more INTs for a rating of 151.1 (versus 156.3 in 2015).

He rushed many fewer times, but then you WANT to see that.

Oh, and his team won the championship.
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To me, those numbers show a decline, even if it's slight/marginal. That extra year of age/experience (from 20 to 21) should lead to superior numbers, especially when you consider Mike Williams was healthy this year as well. He went from the #1 overall prospect (some preferred Garrett too) to whatever he is now. 

 
maf005 said:
To me, those numbers show a decline, even if it's slight/marginal. That extra year of age/experience (from 20 to 21) should lead to superior numbers, especially when you consider Mike Williams was healthy this year as well. He went from the #1 overall prospect (some preferred Garrett too) to whatever he is now. 
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Well. It's all a bit of a Rorschach test, innit?

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I do not remember him ever being down on one of the top QB prospects ever.

I happen to agree with him on Watson, but his praise is meaningless if every QB that appears on his show is "going to be great".
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Not singling you out Dr. O, but do you guys think that the top QBs every single year would agree to be on his QB Camp show if he started slamming 75% of them as to be busts?  Of course not.  Gruden in his current role is TV personality first and foremost.  To criticize him for his "love" of every QB he praises (I.e. All of them) seems misguided, as he needs those QBs else his show fails to exist.

 
SayWhat? said:
Not singling you out Dr. O, but do you guys think that the top QBs every single year would agree to be on his QB Camp show if he started slamming 75% of them as to be busts?  Of course not.  Gruden in his current role is TV personality first and foremost.  To criticize him for his "love" of every QB he praises (I.e. All of them) seems misguided, as he needs those QBs else his show fails to exist.
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You say that like it's a bad thing. 

If it's not providing any actual insight but instead exists only to promote Jon Gruden then it's not worth much.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
You say that like it's a bad thing. 

If it's not providing any actual insight but instead exists only to promote Jon Gruden then it's not worth much.
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I say it as a fact.  It's entertainment (I don't personally watch much, if any of them), so if you accept it as such then that's what it's worth. It gives you a brief glimpse into the QBs football acumen, but moreso their comfort in that type of setting (I.e. tape review with a coach) as it relates to their communication skills and personality.  

Cancel the show for all I care.  But ripping Gruden for saying positive things about every single quarterback is not seeing the forest for the trees in this instance IMO.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Well. It's all a bit of a Rorschach test, innit?
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Not exactly, no. I think the media scouts and NFL teams (tbd) agree that he regressed (raw #s and especially after adjusting for age). Why else would the consensus #1 overall pick (preseason) drop in the draft? 

 
maf005 said:
Not exactly, no. I think the media scouts and NFL teams (tbd) agree that he regressed (raw #s and especially after adjusting for age). Why else would the consensus #1 overall pick (preseason) drop in the draft? 
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Easy.  Because he wasn't the consensus #1 overall pick. 

 
The first 6 working preseason 2017 mock links from the "2017 rookies thread" 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/top-prospects-for-the-2017-nfl-draft-deshaun-watson-myles-garrett-headline-junior-laden-class/14fyrtraxq59y1nnwbanilvpk2

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2636967-2017-nfl-mock-draft-early-1st-round-predictions-for-next-years-top-prospects

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/way-too-premature-list-of-top-25-prospects-for-the-2017-nfl-draft-165556894.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/super-early-2017-nfl-mock-draft-pass-rushers-rbs-and-bama-rule/

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/the-top-10-qbs-well-be-talking-about-before-the-2017-nfl-draft/

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/super-early-2017-nfl-draft-qbs-go-1-2-for-third-consecutive-year/

Watson is the #1 pick in 5 of the 6 mocks and the #2 (2nd to Fournette lol). I'd say Watson was the consensus. Now he's not. He regressed

 
And I could find 5 or 6 mocks from this last week that show him as the #1 QB taken and taken in the top 5.

But I'm not because I'm no longer interested in this conversation. I'm familiar with your M.O.

 
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maf005 said:
The first 6 working preseason 2017 mock links from the "2017 rookies thread" 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/top-prospects-for-the-2017-nfl-draft-deshaun-watson-myles-garrett-headline-junior-laden-class/14fyrtraxq59y1nnwbanilvpk2

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2636967-2017-nfl-mock-draft-early-1st-round-predictions-for-next-years-top-prospects

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/way-too-premature-list-of-top-25-prospects-for-the-2017-nfl-draft-165556894.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/super-early-2017-nfl-mock-draft-pass-rushers-rbs-and-bama-rule/

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/the-top-10-qbs-well-be-talking-about-before-the-2017-nfl-draft/

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/super-early-2017-nfl-draft-qbs-go-1-2-for-third-consecutive-year/

Watson is the #1 pick in 5 of the 6 mocks and the #2 (2nd to Fournette lol). I'd say Watson was the consensus. Now he's not. He regressed
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The consensus opinion of him his lower, sure.  But that's not the same thing as the player actually, objectively regressing.  He's just a more well known quantity now and people are generally more prone to finding the warts when you look closer. 

His biggest flaw imo is his arm strength which we didn't really measure until the combine. That doesn't mean he regressed, just that we see the flaw. 

 
SayWhat? said:
Not singling you out Dr. O, but do you guys think that the top QBs every single year would agree to be on his QB Camp show if he started slamming 75% of them as to be busts?  Of course not.  Gruden in his current role is TV personality first and foremost.  To criticize him for his "love" of every QB he praises (I.e. All of them) seems misguided, as he needs those QBs else his show fails to exist.
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fair point.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
And I could find 5 or 6 mocks from this last week that show him as the #1 QB taken and taken in the top 5.

But I'm not because I'm no longer interested in this conversation. I'm familiar with your M.O.
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If you can't even admit that Watson was the preseason consensus top QB, then you are likely too entrenched in your take for this discussion to be very productive anyway.

 
NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports that the Texans are a potential parachute landing spot for Clemson QB Deshaun Watson in Round 1 if Watson falls.
"His visit was overwhelmingly positive for all," Rap Sheet wrote. "He loved it, team did, too." Rotoworld's Josh Norris has connected Watson to the Bears at No. 3. In Daniel Jeremiah's most recent mock, he had Watson slipping past Houston's No. 25 slot and going to the Chiefs at No. 27.

 
 
Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter 
Apr 26 - 3:28 PM
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Bleacher Report's Jason Cole reports that "someone close to" Clemson QB Deshaun Watson "implied" on Wednesday that the Bears could take him at No. 3.

"That's a hard one to envision," he added. We've heard that chatter as well. Cole previously reported that the Jaguars may be interested in Watson at No. 4 if he's available. Watson says it would be a slap in the face if Mitch Trubisky goes before him, but it'd be good news for him if the Browns took Trubisky at No. 1 overall. That domino dropping would leave Watson as the top quarterback on the board for many teams, and might end up getting him picked ahead of where he might have been.

 
 
Source: Jason Cole on Twitter 
Apr 27 - 2:01 PM
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flapgreen said:
Now imagine if Kizer said that 
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Then it would be as moronic as his previous comments he's made about being a Brady/Cam clone because for as little as Trubisky has proven, Kizer's proven even less.  

Can't wait to watch Kizer drop into the 2nd...

 
SayWhat? said:
Then it would be as moronic as his previous comments he's made about being a Brady/Cam clone because for as little as Trubisky has proven, Kizer's proven even less.  

Can't wait to watch Kizer drop into the 2nd...
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:lmao:  It's apparent you don't even watch college football, so I won't bother discussing anything with you.  You should pay attention to what's happening in the actual games, instead of listening to your little analyst stooges. 

 
Won't lie, I'm hoping he falls far enough for the Texans to move up or take him at 25. They've been missing a leader first and foremost at the role and of the QBs this year, he's shown the most to me. 

 
2017 NFL Draft Live Analysis: Fantasy Football Values Round 1

Excerpt:

Houston Texans: Deshaun Watson, QB – The Texans have their quarterback. Watson is headed to Houston to man a playoff team with one of the best RB-WR combinations in the league. Watson is similar to Jameis Winston positively and negatively. Watson is inconsistent and inaccurate, struggling with read progression. However, Winston was a Top 15 quarterback as a rookie with Mike Evans, and Watson can be with DeAndre Hopkins, especially with his rushing ability. Watson is a mid-high QB2 with the potential to near QB1 value if Bill O’Brien and the Texans coaches can improve Watson’s inconsistencies.
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Texans traded up with the Browns to select Clemson QB Deshaun Watson with the No. 12 overall pick in the 2017 NFL draft.

Houston gave up No. 25 and their first-round pick in 2018 to move all the way up. Cleveland now owns the Texans' first- and second-round picks next year. Watson (6’3/221) made 35 starts in three years at Clemson, leading the Tigers to a 32-3 record and twice winning the Davey O’Brien Award as college football’s top quarterback. He completed 67.4% of his passes with an 8.4 YPA and 90:32 TD-to-INT ratio. An 81st-percentile athlete, Watson added 26 rushing TDs at 4.4 yards per carry. While Watson was a prolific college player, his accuracy and velocity are questionable with sub-baseline 45 MPH ball speed and a tendency to poorly locate passes. He managed a 20 Wonderlic score and has a reputation as a one-read quarterback who doesn’t play comfortably from the pocket. NFL Films’ Greg Cosell has likened Watson to Alex Smith. A polarizing prospect, Watson should get to prove his worth early as the likely Week 1 starter in Houston (sorry Tom Savage).
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Jayded said:
Won't lie, I'm hoping he falls far enough for the Texans to move up or take him at 25. They've been missing a leader first and foremost at the role and of the QBs this year, he's shown the most to me. 




 
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He's yours. Good situation for him.

 
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