Black lives matter (1 Viewer)

Gachi said:

I loathe the term "black on black" crime. 

Like, it really pisses me off. It's a racist term meant to deflect from the issue of police brutality. 

But I've long come to the conclusion that white people have a knee-jerk reaction of deflection when it comes to calling out racism. 

"Black" sounding names and resume discrimination - stop naming your kids dumb, ghetto names. 

Black teenager gets killed walking in his own neighborhood - stop acting like a thug 

police brutality - what about black-on-black crime? 

Even in the 60s, whites were polled and the majority felt racism wasn't an issue.  

I'm sick of it.

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McGarnicle said:

I find this one really amazing. Instead of acknowledging illegitimacy is a problem they simply dismiss the nuclear family as some kind of false ideal forced on them by the "West"? How are these villages working out?

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sho nuff said:

Id agree if its done as a deflection.  I think the point is...when you are chanting death to cops and death to whites...your cause loses any credibility.

Added to that, "black lives matter" would sound better, if there seemed to be any attempts to keep the so-called "black on black" violence down or do something about it.  But its not discussed as a problem and often celebrated by artists.

Thats not racism...thats a factual observation of what has gone on in society.

Police brutality is also a problem, though, some of the examples used by this movement are pretty bad ones.

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dickey moe said:

It's called an "excuse."

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comfortably numb said:

I agree with your 1st paragraph but that is a small minority and an outliner. Much like judging Christians on the words and actions you saw from Westboro church.

Speaking openly here...I understand your 2nd paragraph and believe me having come from an inner city...where the " white section " was decent and the "black section" was a crazy jungle ...it's so much more than telling BLM people that they should at least try to work on the black on black crime. It sounds like a novel concept but you may not realize how ignorant it is.

Much to the Suprise of white people...Blacks don't want to live in a city where they are murdering each other daily.

They stage protests, they have anti violence rallies.  They work with their local church's to have community involvement and keep kids away from the life that tares their community apart....but its like climbing mount everest while avalanches are occurring every 3 days.

Now..as bad and as difficult life is in the hood...the police should be on the side of the good guys...helping the good guys achieve the goals all black people want...but those crazy blacks just can't get it right and here we are right...?

Part of the problem is some of those same police entrusted with the law to serve and protect those black people have intentionally hurt that same black community for decades. Videos are now more than ever making that evident. So when BLM says black lives matter they are simply saying police have been murdering us for decades and it hasn't mattered, it's not reported, it's swept under the rug, a gun or crack vile was secretly planted to show cause to justify blasting another black  ...and now we are here to say we matter.

So BLM is saying.....we got our community issues...we know this but how do we stand a chance when even the police have such little regard for our lives?

You acknowledge police brutality is a problem but.....

But that's part of the problem. It's a problem but..there is always a but to place some/all responsibility on the guy with 5 bullet holes in his body. 

How about there is police brutality problem. Period. Let's try to fix it. 

I can't even imagine all the crap that has gone down in the last 30-50 years where cops did some dirt and it's just another N from the streets. No one will care or believe their story.

Their message is a frustrated and angry one. Can you blame them? These videos we are now seeing more of are not a new phenomenon.  They have been trying to tell us this for decades.

Sadly the more videos are released the more this problem will grow. Each side digs in deeper after every situation.

Cops lives matter, all lives matter etc..We're drowing out their cries for help but I guess we can wait til they fix their black on black crime problem before we take serious action to at least help mend a police brutality problem we all claim does exist. 

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Dr Oadi said:

Blacks don't need white western imperialist telling them how to raise their children. 

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Dr Oadi said:

Blacks don't need white western imperialist telling them how to raise their children. 

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Dr Oadi said:

Blacks don't need white western imperialist telling them how to raise their children. 

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comfortably numb said:

Much to the Suprise of white people...Blacks don't want to live in a city where they are murdering each other daily.

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Dr Oadi said:

Blacks don't need white western imperialist telling them how to raise their children. 

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McGarnicle said:

I find this one really amazing. Instead of acknowledging illegitimacy is a problem they simply dismiss the nuclear family as some kind of false ideal forced on them by the "West"? How are these villages working out?

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cstu said:

I'm in a poor country right now that is 99% black and the murder rate is half that of Chicago.  Only 29% of children are born out of wedlock.

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Dr Oadi said:

Blacks don't need white western imperialist telling them how to raise their children. 

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timschochet said:

Your attempt at pretending to be an extreme leftist is not amusing. It's not well thought out. It makes no point whatsoever beyond demonstrating your incapacity to intelligently discuss the issues at hand. 

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squistion said:

Tim, this is a johnjohn alias. What do you expect?

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timschochet said:

When I've heard BLM members (spokespeople?) speak, I don't like what I hear. They are too extreme in their rhetoric. They offer no specific solutions. That's something that Hillary told them last year when she met a few: she asked them what proposals they had in mind and they had no answer (Hillary is a wonky "nuts and bolts" policy person which is one reason why I support her.) 

On the other hand BLM has done an amazing job in a short time of galvanizing many in the black community, particulary young people. In this way they are somewhat similar to Bernie Sanders' popularity among young whites. IMO, both movements serve as a warning to those of us in the middle: we need to come up with some moderate, reasonable  solutions to alleviate their justifiable complaints; otherwise, the extremists are going to come up with some for us. 

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bueno said:

Trump also serves as a warning to those of us in the middle that we'd better come up with some reasonable solutions to create higher paying jobs for the working class. or the extremists are going to come up with some for us.

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timschochet said:

When I've heard BLM members (spokespeople?) speak, I don't like what I hear. They are too extreme in their rhetoric. They offer no specific solutions. That's something that Hillary told them last year when she met a few: she asked them what proposals they had in mind and they had no answer (Hillary is a wonky "nuts and bolts" policy person which is one reason why I support her.) 

On the other hand BLM has done an amazing job in a short time of galvanizing many in the black community, particulary young people. In this way they are somewhat similar to Bernie Sanders' popularity among young whites. IMO, both movements serve as a warning to those of us in the middle: we need to come up with some moderate, reasonable  solutions to alleviate their justifiable complaints; otherwise, the extremists are going to come up with some for us. 

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timschochet said:

I agree. 

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Dr Oadi said:

Blacks don't need white western imperialist telling them how to raise their children.

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cstu said:

I'm in a poor country right now that is 99% black and the murder rate is half that of Chicago.  Only 29% of children are born out of wedlock.

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comfortably numb said:

Part of the problem is some of those same police entrusted with the law to serve and protect those black people have intentionally hurt that same black community for decades. Videos are now more than ever making that evident. So when BLM says black lives matter they are simply saying police have been murdering us for decades and it hasn't mattered, it's not reported, it's swept under the rug, a gun or crack vile was secretly planted to show cause to justify blasting another black  ...and now we are here to say we matter.

So BLM is saying.....we got our community issues...we know this but how do we stand a chance when even the police have such little regard for our lives?

You acknowledge police brutality is a problem but.....

But that's part of the problem. It's a problem but..there is always a but to place some/all responsibility on the guy with 5 bullet holes in his body. 

How about there is police brutality problem. Period. Let's try to fix it. 

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renesauz said:

There's a lot of things about the BLM that confuse me...but this attitude is tops on that list.

The more I learn, the more I come around on some of the issues/concerns raised, but the movement is far too quick to jump on specific cases long before any real facts are known, and some of those being defended end up being not so worthy of that defense. Turning police into the enemy is not the answer

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rascal said:

I see the horrible events in black Minnesota

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bueno said:

Yet actions speak louder than words. Yesterday, BLM held a candlelight vigil in Spokane. I didn't go but I talked to someone who did (a white woman). It was peaceful, and attended by more than just black people.  Not every BLM protest is tacticaly poorly done.

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Jobber said:

The media only reports violence. Even if said violence was just a handful of bored teens and instigators. The media is partially to blame for race relation issues today, IMO. Making blacks out to be 100% uneducated, poor, gangbangers.

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bueno said:

The fact that "only" 29% are born out of wedlock is still sad.

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Da Guru said:

I was at the Taste of Chicago food fest this past weekend and watched the protest from a very close range. The majority of the protesters were not there to really protest but to stir up chit. There was nothing really organized..just a chaotic mess with people trying to incite the police into a response so they could video it. calling the black cops "Uncle Toms..and wannebe whitey. Chanting "F$%k the police"  Blocking innocent people in the cars who got caught up in it.   It was a steaming mess with protesters fighting among each other.  One guy from Canada in a van was freaking out when they blocked him..he had his family in the van and I thought he was going to run over everybody in his path.  They got out of the way fast.

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igbomb said:

I find the 'black on black' crime argument really frustrating, because it's just a simple statistic that people throw out without considering any nuance around why so many crimes against blacks come from other blacks.

I'm no scholar on the topic, and frankly am far from the right person to argue the point, but it takes almost no time to simply go a touch deeper and start to understand why. I'll start with two reasons why blacks commit such a high proportion of crime against other blacks.

1) That is who they live near! Either through choice, due to common culture and comfort, or due to some long-standing intentional segregation (very common near Detroit where I live) black people tend to live near other black people. So if a crime is going to be committed, odds are they are going to be committed against, wait for it, a black person.

2) Most crime is intra-racial. The stats largely hold true for proportion of crime for other races as well. Something like 86% of crimes against whites are committed by other whites. 

But for those that see this as a black community issue, what do you think the solution is? What kinds of actions can we take to help? It seems like so much of the discussion is around how the black community needs to get their crap together, take care of their own business. That's such an amorphous, unhelpful perspective. Unless you think that the color of their skin makes them predisposed to commit more crime, then clearly there is something else going on. And the obvious one is money. Being poor increases almost every negative outcome dramatically. Yet we see politicians and others arguing that the solution is for black leaders to simply yell a little louder. Ridiculous.

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whiskey7 said:

I don't think anyone here has denied most crime is intra-racial. I believe people are pointing to the "black on black" crime because the BLM group looks pretty fraudulent when they throw a major fit any time a black person is killed by a cop but there does not appear to be nearly the same outrage when a black person is killed by another black person. Just last week here in MN, a black guy was killed by a cop during a traffic stop and a 2yr old black child was killed during a drive-by. 15month old child was also hit during the same incident but fortunately was not killed. One of those stories is all over the news all over the country. One of those stories has people demonstrating/protesting/fighting mad/etc all over the country. Why are people mad enough over the one to block 94, insult/antagonize and throw rocks/fireworks/rebar/etc at cops but not go through the streets of Mpls and chant "##### the POS cowards that shot this little boy!!"? Its no secret there are parts of town where black people are committing violent crimes against other black people at a rate far higher than the number of people the police have killed. If BLM gathered in the streets there, they may prevent some of the violence. They may apply some pressure to the scumbags who do the killing. Yet BLM chooses the MOA, MSP airport, MN State Fair, Twin Cities Marathon (thankfully, only a threat), major freeways, to have their protests?  Why is that?

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igbomb said:

I find the 'black on black' crime argument really frustrating, because it's just a simple statistic that people throw out without considering any nuance around why so many crimes against blacks come from other blacks.

I'm no scholar on the topic, and frankly am far from the right person to argue the point, but it takes almost no time to simply go a touch deeper and start to understand why. I'll start with two reasons why blacks commit such a high proportion of crime against other blacks.

1) That is who they live near! Either through choice, due to common culture and comfort, or due to some long-standing intentional segregation (very common near Detroit where I live) black people tend to live near other black people. So if a crime is going to be committed, odds are they are going to be committed against, wait for it, a black person.

2) Most crime is intra-racial. The stats largely hold true for proportion of crime for other races as well. Something like 86% of crimes against whites are committed by other whites. 

But for those that see this as a black community issue, what do you think the solution is? What kinds of actions can we take to help? It seems like so much of the discussion is around how the black community needs to get their crap together, take care of their own business. That's such an amorphous, unhelpful perspective. Unless you think that the color of their skin makes them predisposed to commit more crime, then clearly there is something else going on. And the obvious one is money. Being poor increases almost every negative outcome dramatically. Yet we see politicians and others arguing that the solution is for black leaders to simply yell a little louder. Ridiculous.

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whiskey7 said:

I don't think anyone here has denied most crime is intra-racial. I believe people are pointing to the "black on black" crime because the BLM group looks pretty fraudulent when they throw a major fit any time a black person is killed by a cop but there does not appear to be nearly the same outrage when a black person is killed by another black person. Just last week here in MN, a black guy was killed by a cop during a traffic stop and a 2yr old black child was killed during a drive-by. 15month old child was also hit during the same incident but fortunately was not killed. One of those stories is all over the news all over the country. One of those stories has people demonstrating/protesting/fighting mad/etc all over the country. Why are people mad enough over the one to block 94, insult/antagonize and throw rocks/fireworks/rebar/etc at cops but not go through the streets of Mpls and chant "##### the POS cowards that shot this little boy!!"? Its no secret there are parts of town where black people are committing violent crimes against other black people at a rate far higher than the number of people the police have killed. If BLM gathered in the streets there, they may prevent some of the violence. They may apply some pressure to the scumbags who do the killing. Yet BLM chooses the MOA, MSP airport, MN State Fair, Twin Cities Marathon (thankfully, only a threat), major freeways, etc to have their protests?  Why is that?

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matttyl said:

Yes, very true that ~90% of black murder victims are committed by those of the same race, and that percentage is about 83 for whites.  Pretty similar numbers. 

I think "black on black crime" is brought up for the murder rate.  It's roughly 14.82 murders per 100K by blacks (90% of which are committed by blacks) versus 2.17 per 100K for whites (83% of which are committed by whites).  In fact, "murder" is one of the only crimes which is committed more often by blacks (who make up only 13% of the population) than by whites (who make up roughly 80% of the population) - the only other ones are robbery and gambling. 

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igbomb said:

And I think the main reason you don't see protests about random acts of violence or drive bys or gang violence is because there is no dissenting position. There is no one out there arguing for the other side of these things.

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Funkley said:

I live a mile from the St Anthony City Hall, my kids go to school there and I've met almost all of the police officers in St Anthony at one time or another. Are any of them racist? Who knows what is really in a person's heart but my feeling is that none of them wake up in the morning and want to hurt or kill a black man that day. But I do think that behavior is learned and what is happening in our communities isn't about hate, it's about fear. Why is a white officer more afraid of pulling over a car of African American's than pulling over a car of Caucasians? Is is because statistically he's in more danger? I doubt he's looking at it that way.....he's just simply more afraid. It sickens me but how do you change that? 

Not sure I'm putting this the way I mean too but I think this is less about hate and more about fear. I'm not sure what's worse.

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whiskey7 said:

I don't think anyone here has denied most crime is intra-racial. I believe people are pointing to the "black on black" crime because the BLM group looks pretty fraudulent when they throw a major fit any time a black person is killed by a cop but there does not appear to be nearly the same outrage when a black person is killed by another black person. Just last week here in MN, a black guy was killed by a cop during a traffic stop and a 2yr old black child was killed during a drive-by. 15month old child was also hit during the same incident but fortunately was not killed. One of those stories is all over the news all over the country. One of those stories has people demonstrating/protesting/fighting mad/etc all over the country. Why are people mad enough over the one to block 94, insult/antagonize and throw rocks/fireworks/rebar/etc at cops but not go through the streets of Mpls and chant "##### the POS cowards that shot this little boy!!"? Its no secret there are parts of town where black people are committing violent crimes against other black people at a rate far higher than the number of people the police have killed. If BLM gathered in the streets there, they may prevent some of the violence. They may apply some pressure to the scumbags who do the killing. Yet BLM chooses the MOA, MSP airport, MN State Fair, Twin Cities Marathon (thankfully, only a threat), major freeways, etc to have their protests?  Why is that?

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Jobber said:

The media only reports violence. Even if said violence was just a handful of bored teens and instigators. The media is partially to blame for race relation issues today, IMO. Making blacks out to be 100% uneducated, poor, gangbangers.

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igbomb said:

So what's the cause? Culture? Genetics? What do we do about it? I've yet to see anyone point out these stats and offer any helpful advice besides telling black people to take care of their own house.

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matttyl said:

In a way, yes it is "culture".  I'm no expert on the topic - I'm a white guy who grew up in the country.  However, a few of my friends and acquaintances (of all races) in high school did have some run ins with "the law," - and by in large they were from "broken homes" (which back in the 80s and 90s was simply parents divorcing, not never having a father figure at home from the start).  The number was posted above, 72.2% of black children are born out of wedlock (and the way that stat reads that doesn't count for families where there is a divorce after birth of the child - makes me wonder what the stats would be for having the same set of parents from birth through high school graduation).  Blacks also have the highest divorce rate.

Later, when I went to (a liberal arts, and very diversified) college, I noticed that there was a far lower number of my friends and acquaintances who came from a broken home - the overwhelming majority were from two parent households with their biological parents.

Speaking of "high school graduation", blacks have the lowest high school graduation rates of any race (68%), compared to 85% for whites.

Yes, this will come across as "take care of your own house", but when you have the lowest high school graduation rates and the highest born out of wedlock rates coupled with the highest divorce rate, it's no wonder why you also have the highest murder rates (so much so that you actually have the highest murder amounts, even with such a relatively low percentage of the overall population). 

Instead of identifying the first as a problem in need of a solution, the BLM movement takes the stance of "We are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, and especially “our” children to the degree that mothers, parents and children are comfortable."  That's right, it's not seen as a problem at all, and something that needs to be committed to continuing? 

Maybe a good first step would be to identify the actual problems and underlying causes of them so that we can come up with a solution.  Now I have no idea how to prevent children to be born out of wedlock in black communities, but maybe not being committed to continuing it would be a good start.  Time and time again poster here TobiasFunke has used the analogy of different races running laps around a track.  Some of those races (specifically in his examples, and in mine here - blacks) are running with an extra 20 pound weight, allowing those from other races to lap them time and time again.  Maybe not all of those weights are placed on them by external factors....

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igbomb said:

Every one of those negative outcomes you cite, broken homes, children born out of wedlock, low graduation rates, crime rates, etc. correlates highly to income. You can't address any one of those items in isolation effectively without addressing the income gap. Yet a lot of people want to focus on the culture issues instead of digging into root causes. 

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matttyl said:

Kinda hard to get a good paying job without a high school diploma, don't you think?

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igbomb said:

What's your point? Clearly not having an education makes it harder to get a good job. But don't you get that the poverty issue doesn't start AFTER they drop out of high school? They drop out of high school BECAUSE they are poor. 

It starts at birth. There are literally thousands of studies that show all kinds of negative consequences due to growing up poor, starting at birth. Even the most fundamental issue of hearing less words because you grow up poor has been studied and shown to have negative consequences on achievement. If we were serious as a nation about addressing all of these issues, we would take at least a cursory look at the truly compelling research that is out there on effects of poverty and take some action. Universal pre-K, social welfare programs that actually enable parents to work and still raise their children, assuring that low-income school districts get the funding they need, etc. 

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matttyl said:

But some of the issues I brought up (broken homes, born our of wedlock, murder rates, divorce rates) have all gotten worse over time these last few decades for blacks.  You don't think by and large blacks were poor in the 1950s and 1960s?

In 1970, only 24% of black babies were born out of wedlock - in 1990 it was 64% - in 2012 it was 72%.

The problems (if you think it is a problem) seems to be getting worse over time, and the income gap you speak of has always been there.

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igbomb said:

For one, there are a lot of active groups trying to curb crime and gang violence in all its forms. Just because it isn't being reported doesn't mean it isn't happening. 

And I think the main reason you don't see protests about random acts of violence or drive bys or gang violence is because there is no dissenting position. There is no one out there arguing for the other side of these things.

But when black people say 'hey, try not shooting us at traffic stops or when we're not breaking any laws', people all over the country come out arguing that the people being shot or killed are responsible. This creates conflict, and the news loves conflict, and it leads to where we are.

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