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QB Lamar Jackson, BAL


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1 hour ago, menobrown said:

I totally get your point. Tebow was recently thrown around in this thread and while he is almost  an exaggeration as an example he is the worst passing QB I've seen in the NFL and he was putting up solid fantasy stats before his lack of ability led to job loss.

But one thought I've been having is with increased QB stats due to increased passing stats is a guy like Lamar Jackson less valuable in relation to the QB market as he'd have been a few years ago? I think so but to what degree I'm not sure.

That is a good point and shouldn’t be discounted. QB’s aren’t really throwing under 200 a clip any more and considered serviceable. Dak being the exception.

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9 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I agree, without a true #1 WR and mediocre offense, they need Jackson behind center a hell of lot more than they need Flacco. 

As much as I'd like to see Lamar take over so long as they remain in the playoff hunt I think the smart thing for them to do is stick with Flacco and work Lamar into the offense a little more. Lamar is just not ready right now as an NFL caliber passer, using both can alleviate some of that and IMO make them harder to game plan to defend. If/when they are eliminated from the playoff race then I think it's time to start seeing what you got with Lamar.

 

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37 minutes ago, menobrown said:

As much as I'd like to see Lamar take over so long as they remain in the playoff hunt I think the smart thing for them to do is stick with Flacco and work Lamar into the offense a little more. Lamar is just not ready right now as an NFL caliber passer, using both can alleviate some of that and IMO make them harder to game plan to defend. If/when they are eliminated from the playoff race then I think it's time to start seeing what you got with Lamar.

 

Why do you say he isn't ready as an NFL passer?   https://twitter.com/mattwaldman/status/1064344064806539271?s=21

Edited by JohnnyU
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7 hours ago, menobrown said:

As much as I'd like to see Lamar take over so long as they remain in the playoff hunt I think the smart thing for them to do is stick with Flacco and work Lamar into the offense a little more. Lamar is just not ready right now as an NFL caliber passer, using both can alleviate some of that and IMO make them harder to game plan to defend. If/when they are eliminated from the playoff race then I think it's time to start seeing what you got with Lamar.

 

The same could be argued about Darnold and Allen. Both have been given far more leniency but have had games far worse than Lamar’s debut. I mean, look at the guy in here critiquing the way Lamar talks. What a bunch of bull ####. I get what you are saying about the playoffs and Harbaugh also may be fighting for his job. I just think people (not you) are being super critical of a guy that went 13 for 19 and put up over 250 yds. I don’t see the same folks marching into those two QB’s, previously mentioned, thread and trash them for throws 20 yards over the receivers head on a screen or locking onto receivers and refusing to throw it deep.

Edited by Bojang0301
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4 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

The same could be argued about Darnold and Allen. Both have been given far more leniency but have had games far worse than Lamar’s debut. I mean, look at the guy in here critiquing the way Lamar talks. What a bunch of bull ####. I get what you are saying about the playoffs and Harbaugh also may be fighting for his job. I just think people (not you) are being super critical of a guy that went 13 for 19 and put up over 250 yds. I don’t see the same folks marching into the two QB’s, I’ve previously mentioned, thread and trash them for throws 20 yards over the receivers head on a screen or locking onto receivers and refusing to throw it deep.

It's because he has talent running with the football and those two don't.  It's easier for them to find fault with Jackson as a passer than the other two and there is absolutely no justification for it.  As for the "how Lamar talks" and that we're talking about a talented black QB that can run, makes we wonder how much racial bias there is among some posters in here.

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

As for the "how Lamar talks" and that we're talking about a talented black QB that can run, makes we wonder how much racial bias there is among some posters in here.

A poster compared him to Leftwich. This tells you the answer. 

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12 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

It's because he has talent running with the football and those two don't.  It's easier for them to find fault with Jackson as a passer than the other two and there is absolutely no justification for it.  As for the "how Lamar talks" and that we're talking about a talented black QB that can run, makes we wonder how much racial bias there is among some posters in here.

I agree, I think there is some racial bias that some people are subconsciously letting creep into their mindset whether they know it or not. 

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1 hour ago, JohnnyU said:

It's because he has talent running with the football and those two don't.  It's easier for them to find fault with Jackson as a passer than the other two and there is absolutely no justification for it.  As for the "how Lamar talks" and that we're talking about a talented black QB that can run, makes we wonder how much racial bias there is among some posters in here.

That could be part of it. I dont think its racial to compare him to tebow though.

It could just be doubting Jackson because he is a good runner, ergo he can't pass as well as run.

This isnt really fair though. Few Qb can run as well as Jackson. That does not necessarily mean he isnt also a good passer however. It just means he can run better than pass.

If other QB could run as well as Jackson I think they would lean more on their running too.

The folks criticizing his throwing are not really separating these two different skill sets.

Josh Allen can run too. He just isnt as good at running or throwing the ball as Jackson.

 

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57 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Why do you say he isn't ready as an NFL passer?   https://twitter.com/mattwaldman/status/1064344064806539271?s=21

Because of how he looks when I watch him play.  Footwork and mechanics need a lot of work. Accuracy is way off, not seeing a lot of anticipatory throws but more of a see it and throw it kind of player right now. Also think he is lacking pocket presence but can already tell he has improved on that.

 

58 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

The same could be argued about Darnold and Allen. Both have been given far more leniency but have had games far worse than Lamar’s debut.

I'm not really knocking Lamar for his debut, it's what I expected. The other two were forced into action earlier then Lamar which is a nice benefit to him and his also has what I consider a more stable team around him. Darnold to me makes NFL caliber throws, he just has to improve the decision making but IMO he's got a good arm and makes throws with timing and anticipation.  Allen is barely less raw then Jackson, barely, and I think Bills should have had a better veteran QB plan to not have to rush him into action so early this year but Allen does have an elite arm.

If Darnold or Allen played for the Ravens I'd say the same thing as I'd say regarding Lamar which is not to play them if Flacco is healthy and you are not eliminated. I don't think any of them are ready, but Lamar less ready and Darnold the most NFL ready of those three, that's my opinion anyway.

 

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyU said:

It's because he has talent running with the football and those two don't.

No it's really not and Josh Allen may not be in Lamar's category as a runner but I'd consider it a plus to his game, he's a good athlete.

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyU said:

 talented black QB that can run, makes we wonder how much racial bias there is among some posters in here.

That's a super weak take. Because I don't think Lamar is ready to lead an NFL caliber passing attack is not racial bias, it's actually watching him play. We are talking about a QB whose rush attempts outnumbered his pass attempts by an almost 3 to 2 margin in an era of passing unlike we've ever seen and you actually want to chalk up someone saying he's not NFL ready as a passer to racial bias? Give me a break. There is a reason he's running more then he's passing, there is a reason he's the first NFL QB since Tebow to have more then 20 rushing attempts in as season since at least 1995.  I mean Lamar just had more rushes then any  QB since at least 1995. Yes he's good at it but if was an NFL caliber passer he'd not be running the ball that much. We've had a lot of other good running QB's over the years and none of them were forced to run 27 times a game.

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7 minutes ago, menobrown said:

That's a super weak take.

I guess I can’t speak for JohnnyU but the problems I have with this thread are not you by a long shot. At least you have a position to stand on: you think Flacco should start when healthy because they’re in the playoff hunt and believe Lamar doesn’t have the capability to make NFL throws (at least not yet). I think if he is benched though it’s a bad sign for his long term prognosis. From what I recall no 1st round QB in the modern era has been benched and come back to high level success, unless you count the bizarre case of Steve Young who was 1st pick in the USFL supplemental draft.

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3 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

I guess I can’t speak for JohnnyU but the problems I have with this thread are not you by a long shot. At least you have a position to stand on: you think Flacco should start when healthy because they’re in the playoff hunt and believe Lamar doesn’t have the capability to make NFL throws (at least not yet). I think if he is benched though it’s a bad sign for his long term prognosis. From what I recall no 1st round QB in the modern era has been benched and come back to high level success, unless you count the bizarre case of Steve Young who was 1st pick in the USFL supplemental draft.

I would not consider him getting benched if Flacco starts. I consider someone getting benched when they are named the starter and due to play are no longer the starter. I just look at it as a backup doing his job until the starter is ready. I don't view it was a potentially confidence shaking situation as actually relegating a starter to a backup role.

But off top of my head I think Elway was benched a few times, including the opener when he was 1 for 8. Elway was brutal his first few games. I'd have to think of more but I'm sure it's happened a few times.

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1 hour ago, menobrown said:

I would not consider him getting benched if Flacco starts. I consider someone getting benched when they are named the starter and due to play are no longer the starter. I just look at it as a backup doing his job until the starter is ready. I don't view it was a potentially confidence shaking situation as actually relegating a starter to a backup role.

But off top of my head I think Elway was benched a few times, including the opener when he was 1 for 8. Elway was brutal his first few games. I'd have to think of more but I'm sure it's happened a few times.

Peyton Manning threw for a 56.7% completion rate and 28 interceptions his rookie year. 

Earlier when I said there might be some racial bias toward Jackson, I said it because he has running skills and the first thing some do to black QBs with those kinds of skills is lean negatively toward their ability to pass if there is the slightest hitch.  I don't see this done toward white QBs as much who also had.some running chops, such as John Elway,  Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, and Jim Zorn at the beginning of their careers, who struggled in the passing game.  In conclusion, it's way too premature to label Jackson in any way right now.  He could be the next Patrick Mahomes throwing the ball for all we know.

Edited by JohnnyU
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1 hour ago, seahawk 17 said:

I am excited to see what Jackson can do. The stats speak for themselves. He is a great runner, unpolshied passer. Those who bring up race, are usually the racists.

Not calling anymore racist, just saying sometimes there is negative racial bias toward athletic running black qbs if there is the slightest rawness to their passing ability.   I apologize if I’m off base with that.  Tebow doesn’t count because he truly couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing right in front of it.  I watched Jackson in college and he can make all the NFL throws.  Will he struggle?  Of course he will, but those throwing him under the bus with Tebow isn’t fair.  IMO he can wing it pretty well and in no way is like Tebow.  

Edited by JohnnyU
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17 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

Not calling anymore racist, just saying sometimes there is negative racial bias toward athletic running black qbs if there is the slightest rawness to their passing ability.   I apologize if I’m off base with that.  Tebow doesn’t count because he truly couldn’t hit the ocean if he was standing right in front of it.  I watched Jackson in college and he can make all the NFL throws.  Will he struggle?  Of course he will, but those throwing him under the bus with Tebow isn’t fair.  IMO he can wing it pretty well and in no way is like Tebow.  

People get defensive when you bring up race. No different than a white wr. They damn near have to look like a hf before some will come around.

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On 11/19/2018 at 7:29 PM, kyoun1e said:

Tremblay's initial projections out.

In my scoring system (4 points per TD pass) L. Jackson is #1 on the board.

Yeah, was just going through the FBG projections and they all seem to love him this week.

I snagged him in all my leagues so I'm happy to see the optimism, but man... I don't know. I realize it's the Raiders. I realize maybe he improves with a full week of practice. But I'm not sure I have the guts to start him anywhere, unless I'm in bye week hell. He's not going to run for 100 yards every week, and even Sunday was only a middling fantasy performance.

This just feels like one of those times where FBG loves a new guy to death, then he flames out and next week we're reading "Well obviously we all knew that was coming" from the same experts who were pushing him.

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14 minutes ago, smcindoe said:

Yeah, was just going through the FBG projections and they all seem to love him this week.

I snagged him in all my leagues so I'm happy to see the optimism, but man... I don't know. I realize it's the Raiders. I realize maybe he improves with a full week of practice. But I'm not sure I have the guts to start him anywhere, unless I'm in bye week hell. He's not going to run for 100 yards every week, and even Sunday was only a middling fantasy performance.

This just feels like one of those times where FBG loves a new guy to death, then he flames out and next week we're reading "Well obviously we all knew that was coming" from the same experts who were pushing him.

Rumors have it that Flacco could start this week.  We simply don't know at this time, but Jackson could have a great game against the Raiders.

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Goff on bye, dropped Stafford for him 

 

pretty sure Stafford will still be there on waivers if Flacco is announced 

 

edit: forgot DET plays Thursday 

gulp

Edited by Wrigley
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1 hour ago, Wrigley said:

Goff on bye, dropped Stafford for him 

 

pretty sure Stafford will still be there on waivers if Flacco is announced 

 

edit: forgot DET plays Thursday 

gulp

I passed on picking Stafford up for Jackson to fill in for Goffs bye.

 

I was originally hoping to start TB QB but that is such a carousel, I'll take Jackson. He could be quite exciting and could possibly push Goff to the bench if he can hold the job. The rushing stats are just huge. It's like starting 2 guys. 

 

If Flacco starts then I will grab Winston and hope he can manage through at least 3 quarters 

Edited by Dr. Dan
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11 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I passed on picking Stafford up for Jackson to fill in for Goffs bye.

 

I was originally hoping to start TB QB but that is such a carousel, I'll take Jackson. He could be quite exciting and could possibly push Goff to the bench if he can hold the job. The rushing stats are just huge. It's like starting 2 guys. 

 

If Flacco starts then I will grab Winston and hope he can manage through at least 3 quarters 

I can always pick Flacco up if he gets the go 

win and in(this week or next)

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9 minutes ago, metoo said:

https://twitter.com/jamisonhensley/status/1065312726426284038

 

Joe Flacco is not practicing Wednesday for the Ravens. It's the fourth straight practice that he's missed with a hip injury. It still looks like Lamar Jackson will get his second career start Sunday against Raiders.

10:35 AM - 21 Nov 2018

I have him in several leagues but I don't see myself starting him in front of Deshaun Watson, Andrew Luck (2 leagues), Carson Wentz, or Matt Ryan.

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Starting over Cam Newton even though most experts are still projecting him as a top 3-top 5 play. Tough match up this week as the Seattle pass defense has been surprisingly good post legion of boom. I'm thinking most experts might be overvaluing Cam's floor as well. His rushing attempts have been unusually low these past two week so his floor might not be as high as it was earlier in the season.

 

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1 hour ago, SkippaDaFlippa said:

Starting over Cam Newton even though most experts are still projecting him as a top 3-top 5 play. Tough match up this week as the Seattle pass defense has been surprisingly good post legion of boom. I'm thinking most experts might be overvaluing Cam's floor as well. His rushing attempts have been unusually low these past two week so his floor might not be as high as it was earlier in the season.

 

Bold.

And not something I would advise.

Considering starting him over R. Wilson, but don't think I will be able to pull the trigger.

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1 minute ago, kyoun1e said:

Bold.

And not something I would advise.

Considering starting him over R. Wilson, but don't think I will be able to pull the trigger.

In the same boat.  I currently have Jackson in, partially I must admit because of all of the crazy high rankings I am seeing for him.  In some cases more than 10 spots ahead of Wilson.  Seems nuts to me, but its also kind of exciting.

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1 minute ago, ChuckLiddell said:

In the same boat.  I currently have Jackson in, partially I must admit because of all of the crazy high rankings I am seeing for him.  In some cases more than 10 spots ahead of Wilson.  Seems nuts to me, but its also kind of exciting.

My opponent has several players in games tmrw. Way I figure it, if he gets a bunch of BS outperformances and I'm projected to lose, maybe I go upside with Jackson. If not, I think Wilson is the safer play (although he has upside himself to run wild).

On Jackson, I have a feeling his rushing attempts are cut back a bit and there's more of a mix of Gus Edwards/Collins/Ty/Allen, BUT I bet he throws a TD pass or runs for one. Net net maybe about the same as last week. On Wilson, can't decide if that's going to be a slugfest or a high scoring affair.

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He was dropped last week after a one week pick up. I have both Wentz and Rivers and looking to bid FAAB money on Lamar because he would start over those two. He's a top 3 play because he'll run 15-20 times for 75-100 yards. Rushing TD's and perhaps a throwing TD or 2 = 25 points or more.

 

Edit: The reason Lamar is not ranked very high moving forward is prolly because he isn't expected to start for the ROS, back to his previous role? What happens if he takes over? That is the real question. Win this week and then we'll have to wait n' see.

Edited by Team Smokin'
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7 hours ago, Heisenberg23 said:

Should I start Lamar vs oak OVER rivers vs Arizona ?

Not who do I start, more like I am starting Jackson over Rivers providing Lamar is getting the start and Flacco is out. You get solid RB 1 numbers plus he will throw for at least 125-150 yards. TD's put Lamar in the 20+ point category. If he starts he's a top 3-5 QB with upside to be #1.

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I have Jackson in one Superflex dynasty league. Starting Rivers and Rodgers over him this week.

He scored 19.2 points in that league last week, which ranked him as QB #16. The rushing production is nice for his floor, but TDs matter. I have to see more before starting him over the other two.

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1 hour ago, shadyridr said:

He's sitting on waivers and very tempted to pick him up but already own Watson and Winston. Starting Winston this week and don't want to roster 3 QBs 

I don't either... with Wentz and Watson. Not dropping either one of these guys. I just think L Jackson has higher upside and a decent floor. Means I would have to drop Ridley though. 

Roster 3 QB's - ouch! May have to rethink this. Can't drop Doyle with Gronk iffy either. Rostering two Defenses in BAL and LAR. Not dropping the Rams either.

Lamar Jackson - just seems like a very good play this week

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4 minutes ago, Team Smokin' said:

I don't either... with Wentz and Watson. Not dropping either one of these guys. I just think L Jackson has higher upside and a decent floor. Means I would have to drop Ridley though. 

Roster 3 QB's - ouch! May have to rethink this. Can't drop Doyle with Gronk iffy either. Rostering two Defenses in BAL and LAR. Not dropping the Rams either.

Lamar Jackson - just seems like a very good play this week

He does but so does Wentz so I wouldn't drop any of the guys you mentioned.

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Longtime Ravens fan here. I thought Lamar Jackson had a very good debut as an all-around NFL QB. Here's why:

With 5:45 seconds left in the third quarter, the Ravens were down by eight points after giving away the lead. As a Ravens fan, this is not the spot you want to be in, as the offence the last few weeks under Flacco has been completely unreliable. I was very worried.

From this point in the game, the Ravens would have 3 more possessions of the football, not including their final drive which was three consecutive kneel downs by Jackson (which should be considered when looking at his rushing stats BTW). 

These three crucial drives went like this:

  1. A nearly five minute long TD drive, plus a 2pt conversion to tie
  2. A 6 minute, 45 second FG drive to take the lead
  3. A three-and-out that would have been a first down to essentially ice the game, except Ronnie Stanley took the absolute worst penalty in football when he forgot to put his hand up and wave at the ref before the snap

On these three critical drives, Jackson was 4/5 for 57 yards. Once they needed to open up the game plan and actually let him throw the ball, he was very efficient, including two HUGE third down passes of 19 and 7 yards on the second drive. 

He also rushed 11 times for 39 yards on these drives. The rushing stats are nuanced too, as his ability to hold the football and move it steadily allowed the Ravens to completely control the clock (Total TOP was 38.09 to 21.51 for the Ravens).

More importantly, Jackson's threat as a runner opened huge holes for Gus Edwards. They made the brilliant coaching decision of letting Edwards loose for the first time, because they knew his aggressive, downhill running style would take advantage of linebackers and safeties who were frozen by the Ravens option plays (including RPOs, read options, and old style college options). On the two scoring drives, the LBs were stuck in mud because they were spying Jackson, and Edwards gashed them for it. 

In short, the Ravens wanted to control the clock by running relentlessly, and throw the ball when they were forced to. They did exactly that, and Jackson executed the gameplay well. I'm optimistic going forward. 

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12 hours ago, Hilts said:

I have Wilson and Cousins but still picked him up. If you have traditional scoring that gives more points for rushing yards than throwing yards, his potential is enormous. His schedule is incredibly easy. 

I can't bring myself to start him.

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Quote

Oakland Raiders at Baltimore Ravens (1 p.m. ET)

Key matchup: Can the Raiders defend Lamar Jackson's speed?

In a game-script that is almost unheard of in the modern NFL, Baltimore called just 19 pass attempts on 73 plays in Lamar Jackson's first start. The Ravens went 74 percent run-heavy! For reference, the league has been about 60 percent pass-heavy this season. In general, Jackson did not do much on his passes (150, 1 INT, 70.1 passer rating), but he turned his enormous 27 carries into 117 yards on the ground. Per Next Gen Stats, Jackson reached 15-plus MPH on 14 rush attempts while no other player has hit 15-plus MPH on more than nine rush attempts in any game this season:

Lamar Jackson reached 15+ MPH on 14 rush attempts in his first career NFL start. No other player has reached 15+ MPH on more than 9 rush attempts in any game this season.#CINvsBAL #RavensFlock pic.twitter.com/vVOofcSy1q

��� Next Gen Stats (@NextGenStats) November 18, 2018
Not only is the slowest defense in the NFL ill-equipped to deal with Jackson's speed, but the flashy rookie also showed a little promise when throwing from a clean pocket in his debut last week. Per Next Gen Stats, Jackson averaged a robust 9.4 YPA when he was not pressured in his debut. No team pressures the quarterback less often than the Raiders (16.5 percent).

Graham Barfield @ NFL.com

 

Locked & loaded.

Edited by Krilons Resa
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  • Joe Bryant changed the title to QB Lamar Jackson, BAL

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