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***Chicago Bears Thread*** Justin Fields is up


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18 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

They won the Super Bowl in Eli's 4th year, but he was arguably worse then (he led the NFL in interceptions with 20, to go along with 13 fumbles -- 2nd most among QBs).

But the Giants built a solid team around him....

But he also made some impressive plays during that run, he could hit receivers deep, Mitch hasn't shown he can do that at all.  He's only made 2 or 3 great throws all year.  He misses wide open guys for big plays.

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3 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

They won the Super Bowl in Eli's 4th year, but he was arguably worse then (he led the NFL in interceptions with 20, to go along with 13 fumbles -- 2nd most among QBs).

But the Giants built a solid team around him....

I think the problem for the Bears is that the window is now. Is the D going to be as good 1, 2, 3 years from now? The Bears today aren't a rebuilding team, this team is supposedly the product of the rebuild. They kind of blew the bank for Mack and it's going to be hard keeping others. Sure, they can muddle along with average Mitch and hope he finds Eli or Flacco postseason magic, but they have to get there first. It isn't happening this year with GB, MIN and maybe even DET being better teams than the Bears.

So the question will be how they can build going forward? They have no draft picks. They haven't shown they can evaluate talent that well. They had cap flexibility this year, but in 2020 they are in trouble with a cap hit of $59 million on Mack, Fuller and Robinson alone. It's going to be tough keeping the D together and maybe even tough keeping someone like Robinson who is by far their best O player. But you're right, teams with capable management who can evaluate talent can build a contending team with deficiencies at QB, I'm just not sure the Bears management are up for the task.

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Agreed with the great D but still need a QB sentiment.  I was really hoping Mitch would work out but he seems like he is getting worse. Give him until the rest of the season to turn it around because it is not worth giving up any more draft capital because they need to shore up the offensive line which has been brutal.  They need to get an established veteran because they are built to win now. I think the big name FAs will re-sign with their teams. Prescott and Rivers. Winston, Marriota, etc come with a lot of baggage. The list kind of stinks. Rumors before the season started were that the Raiders would move on from Carr so he might be available as well. 

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2 hours ago, [scooter] said:

OK but there are only 10-15 "franchise quarterbacks" in the world, and maybe another 10-15 guys who could lead you to a Super Bowl.

Is it really cost-efficient for a team to continue to waste season after season chasing that elusive "franchise QB"? Wouldn't that time and money be better spent building a solid team at every other position, then plugging in replacement level quarterbacks?

If you look at the history of NFL champions, very few of them were created from the "draft a franchise QB and build around him" method. Even if you look at recent teams that won with a 1st-round-QB (e.g., Ravens and Giants), their quarterbacks weren't really "franchise" quarterbacks, but the teams had elite players at several other positions.

Is Trubisky really that much worse than Joe Flacco? I don't recall people saying so in 2018.

The way Mitch is playing right now, Flacco was Montana. That playoff run by Flacco was one of the best playoff runs I’ve ever seen from a QB. Bad comp. 

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17 minutes ago, yoman said:

Agreed with the great D but still need a QB sentiment.  I was really hoping Mitch would work out but he seems like he is getting worse. Give him until the rest of the season to turn it around because it is not worth giving up any more draft capital because they need to shore up the offensive line which has been brutal.  They need to get an established veteran because they are built to win now. I think the big name FAs will re-sign with their teams. Prescott and Rivers. Winston, Marriota, etc come with a lot of baggage. The list kind of stinks. Rumors before the season started were that the Raiders would move on from Carr so he might be available as well. 

No way do the Bears get Prescott.  

Alex Smith?

The problem is that all of the available options are available because they have already failed someplace else.  

Maybe Cam Newton if the Panthers are moving on?  I doubt they would if they thought Cam was going to return to form...

Nick Mullens?  

It's hard to find somebody attainable who is also likely to succeed.

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You can reach back to a cascading group of mistakes. First, the Bears interviewed Chris Ballard for the GM job, but chose Ryan Pace. When you look at the terrific job Ballard has done building the Colts, you think about how much better the Bears would be if they had hired Chris Ballard instead of Ryan Pace.

Pace does get some credit. He built a roster last year that I think could have won a Super Bowl. Had Parkey made that field goal I think they were capable of getting to the Super Bowl, and beating the Patriots. It is surprising that a roster that hasn’t changed all that much, is now this bad.

One of the things that really bothers me about Pace is he throws draft picks around like they are worthless. In 2018 he moved up for Anthony Miller. He gave up a 2019 second to move from 105 to 51 to select Anthony Miller. DJ Chark and Gallup were taken after Miller. Miller doesn’t look like anything special.

They moved up to get Montgomery in the 2019 draft. They gave up a fifth for a sixth in the 2019 draft, and a fourth in the 2020 draft. The worst part is they only got a sixth that could be a fifth in the 2020 draft for Howard. And Montgomery doesn’t look much better than Howard. They would have been much better off keeping Howard and using that pick on another position. 

The big one is they gave up a third and fourth round pick in 2017, plus a third in 2018 to move from 3 to 2 to pick Trubisky. That of course, is the absolute worst decision. Not only was no one else moving up to take Trubisky, but he is far and away the worst of the three QBs that were available. And you gave up more draft capital to move up to get him.

Good franchises hoard draft capital. They recognize that drafting is an inexact science. By getting more swings at the piñata, you have more chances to succeed. The Patriots always draft late, but they have a ton of picks. And they are always more likely to move back, and accumulate draft capital, rather than move up. Pace, on the other hand, has tended to toss away draft capital to chase players. And, in the case of Miller, Montgomery, and Trubisky, it either wasn’t necessary, or didn’t really improve your team, or both.

Edited by twistd
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11 minutes ago, twistd said:

You can reach back to a cascading group of mistakes. First, the Bears interviewed Chris Ballard for the GM job, but chose Ryan Pace. When you look at the terrific job Ballard has done building the Colts, you think about how much better the Bears would be if they had hired Chris Ballard instead of Ryan Pace.

Pace does get some credit. He built a roster last year that I think could have won a Super Bowl. Had Parkey made that field goal I think they were capable of getting to the Super Bowl, and beating the Patriots. It is surprising that a roster that hasn’t changed all that much, is now this bad.

One of the things that really bothers me about Pace is he throws draft picks around like they are worthless. In 2018 he moved up for Anthony Miller. He gave up a 2019 second to move from 105 to 51 to select Anthony Miller. DJ Chark and Gallup were taken after Miller. Miller doesn’t look like anything special.

They moved up to get Montgomery in the 2019 draft. They gave up a fifth for a sixth in the 2019 draft, and a fourth in the 2020 draft. The worst part is they only got a sixth that could be a fifth in the 2020 draft for Howard. And Montgomery doesn’t look much better than Howard. They would have been much better off keeping Howard and using that pick on another position. 

The big one is they gave up a third and fourth round pick in 2017, plus a third in 2018 to move from 3 to 2 to pick Trubisky. That of course, is the absolute worst decision. Not only was no one else moving up to take Trubisky, but he is far and away the worst of the three QBs that we’re available. And you gave up more draft capital to move up to get him.

Good franchises hoard draft capital. They recognize that drafting is an inexact science. By getting more swings at the piñata, you have more chances to succeed. The Patriots always draft late, but they have a ton of picks. And they are always more likely to move back, and accumulate draft capital, rather than move up. Pace, on the other hand, has tended to toss away draft capital to chase players. And, in the case of Miller, Montgomery, and Trubisky, it either wasn’t necessary, or didn’t really improve your team, or both.

good post.

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When I'm feeling down about life in football season, I visit this thread and it makes me feel better knowing that it could be much worse.

When I feel like I'm dominating life in the football offseason, I visit this thread to stay grounded and realize that I can't hold a candle to the greatest of others.

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4 hours ago, [scooter] said:

OK but there are only 10-15 "franchise quarterbacks" in the world, and maybe another 10-15 guys who could lead you to a Super Bowl.

Is it really cost-efficient for a team to continue to waste season after season chasing that elusive "franchise QB"? Wouldn't that time and money be better spent building a solid team at every other position, then plugging in replacement level quarterbacks?

If you look at the history of NFL champions, very few of them were created from the "draft a franchise QB and build around him" method. Even if you look at recent teams that won with a 1st-round-QB (e.g., Ravens and Giants), their quarterbacks weren't really "franchise" quarterbacks, but the teams had elite players at several other positions.

Is Trubisky really that much worse than Joe Flacco? I don't recall people saying so in 2018.

Joe Flacco shouldn't be starting either. I get the "all you need is a game manager" argument. I think it holds some water but mostly it will keep you just good enough to contend but then eventually fall short in the playoffs. However, Trubisky is not playing anywhere close to "game manager" standards right now. At all. He is in over his head and needs to be benched.

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I don't see Trubisky getting benched at any point this season. It will be interesting to see what they do in the off season if he continues to flail. Quite a few people have a lot riding on him succeeding. Usually, that means teams wait it out on another season, even when it's painfully obvious he isn't the guy.  

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28 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

I don't see Trubisky getting benched at any point this season. It will be interesting to see what they do in the off season if he continues to flail. Quite a few people have a lot riding on him succeeding. Usually, that means teams wait it out on another season, even when it's painfully obvious he isn't the guy.  

Trade for Bridgewater.

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1 hour ago, flapgreen said:

I don't see Trubisky getting benched at any point this season. It will be interesting to see what they do in the off season if he continues to flail. Quite a few people have a lot riding on him succeeding. Usually, that means teams wait it out on another season, even when it's painfully obvious he isn't the guy.  

that's my concern right now. Pace's future (and to a less degree Nagy) is heavily tied into Trubisky's success, he might keep doubling down on him next year instead of looking for another guy. 

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15 minutes ago, pbandy1 said:

for the same reasons a lot of people liked Darnold out of the draft. I'm not gonna write him off after an awful awful game against the Patriots defense with Gase as his head coach.

That's fair, but he's had quite a few pretty awful games since he came in the league and not a lot of impressive ones.

As I've said in other threads, I'm just interested in how these narratives form - Trubisky is the absolute worst (Bortles-like), must be benched etc, but for Darnold he just needs more time or it's an aberration against a good defense. He's young and should improve, but I just don't see any reason to rate him above Trubisky at this point based on what we've actually seen on the field. I wonder how many poor Darnold performances it will take for the pitchforks to come out? My guess is a lot because the media already annointed him before he played a down. Trubisky is the opposite. Everyone seemed determined to tear him down from the start. 

Again, I'm not the biggest Trubisky fan out there (although it seems like I'm one of the last who will defend him at all) and can't say he's been great (obviously) but I find it an interesting comparison. 

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Less quick answer, im not interested in comparing Trubisky to other players that wont be Bears. Hes not good enough, thats it. He doesn't see the field and cant run an offense without his head coach literally in his ear. Hes got another 10 games or so to prove differently, but its not going to happen. He seems like a nice kid, but he doesnt have the football accumen or instincts to be a real NFL QB, and trying to design an offense to hide that worked as long as it was going to work. Next season its a blank slate, bring in somebody, draft a mid-late round project and see who steps up. 

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1 minute ago, RushHour said:

That's cool. I look forward to the excuses when Darnold has played in 30.

Thats fine, im not a Darnold apologist. The reality is sample size matters. Peyton Manning threw 28 ints his first season. Point is you gotta draw the line somewhere. Three seasons deep seems reasonable. 

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11 hours ago, flapgreen said:

I don't see Trubisky getting benched at any point this season. It will be interesting to see what they do in the off season if he continues to flail. Quite a few people have a lot riding on him succeeding. Usually, that means teams wait it out on another season, even when it's painfully obvious he isn't the guy.  

It’s super weird that he won’t be benched. And in fact was brought back early wearing a shoulder harness for the Saints game.  
 

Chase Daniel isn’t a world beater or anything but he looked good enough to win games for the Bears. Certainly better than Mitch looks. 

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I said years ago that we need to concentrate on the offensive line and quarterback in every draft and free agency. You only need to look at the Packers to see how it's done. They have what seems like a constant revolving door at other positions, but their offensive line is always able to give Rodgers time to find an open mediocre receiver. Keep adding linemen until you have depth to weather the inevitable injuries. A mediocre QB that is allowed to stand in the pocket for 7-10 seconds will have a much better chance at success. 

It doesn't take a 1st round pick to find a pro bowl QB. Teams prove that every year. The Bears have a long history of not having great QB's. Add one every year in rounds 3-5 until you catch lightning in a bottle. I'd rather go five years making picks like this in order to end up with a franchise QB and then build around him. When you build around a mediocre QB, you end up with a mediocre team. I'm also frustrated that we don't have a potential surprise at backup QB. Too many teams are winning with their backups this season to watch the Bears roll out a Chase Daniel to show that he's also mediocre. 

TL:DR - We are not the Monsters of the Midway. We are the Mediocres of the Midway.

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4 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:
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Ok - someone smarter than me explain to me what @ChicagoBears are doing offensively? Is the scheme based off their young QBs limitations or is the scheme limiting their young QB? It’s hard to know when not in the meeting room - but it’s a struggle to watch!

With due regard to Kurt, you also have to ask if Nagys growth as a playcaller, OC, and head coach has been hampered by having to spoonfeed Mitch.

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11 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

Response from Sage Rosenfels. 

Watched every snap this morning. Worst offensive scheme in the NFL. Just drawing up plays and running them. No rhyme or reason.

 

The caveat being the offense actually moved fairly well with Daniel in the game, despite his limitations. 

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42 minutes ago, rockaction said:

All the doom and gloom in here. At least y'all have seen a Super Bowl in your lifetimes. Can you imagine being a Jets fan? Born in the seventies?

Ooooof. You guys are so darn lucky. 

Gets a little old hearing about the 85 Bears 

 

 

 

 

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Can I suggest that perhaps this is not all as doom and gloom as it appears to be?  No doubt, what looked like it could be a special season is looking rocky at best now.  I'm certainly disappointed by that.

But regarding Trubisky, consider the pathways that the modern NFL with its salary structures offers.  The Bears drafted a QB in the first round - 5 years of team control.  Yes, they could have had Watson or Mahomes.  Not every QB pans out.  If Trubisky wasn't god-awful this year and was slightly better than last year, would we be looking at a long term contract for him?  In some ways, a complete and total washout frees the team from a massive and potentially disastrous contract.

Yes, that means they have to find a QB...again.  But perhaps some short term pain will lead to long term gain.

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Brian Baldinger on the running game

ChicagoBears take your run playbook and rip it up. This is a nonsense run game. College option crap with tight ends sealing the LOS with crap cut blocks. Pretend like Papa Bear Halas is watching and win the LOS. This run game will never win in the post season #BaldysBreakdowns

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On NFL.com they have an article with a trade target for each team. The trade target for the Bears was Kenyan Drake. Here is someone who either, hasn’t watched the Bears play at all, or is utterly clueless. The RBs are not the problem with the Bears running game. The problem with the Bears running game is they can’t block anyone, and teams don’t respect the downfield passing game so they crowd the line of scrimmage. They need help in a number of places, RB is not one of them.

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6 minutes ago, twistd said:

On NFL.com they have an article with a trade target for each team. The trade target for the Bears was Kenyan Drake. Here is someone who either, hasn’t watched the Bears play at all, or is utterly clueless. The RBs are not the problem with the Bears running game. The problem with the Bears running game is they can’t block anyone, and teams don’t respect the downfield passing game so they crowd the line of scrimmage. They need help in a number of places, RB is not one of them.

They need the Tackle from Washington and any other O-linemen who are available.  They should then see if Favre or Manning will come out of retirement or they should kick the tires on Kaepernick.  (Caveat - I do not have the Bears best interests at heart.)

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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5 minutes ago, twistd said:

On NFL.com they have an article with a trade target for each team. The trade target for the Bears was Kenyan Drake. Here is someone who either, hasn’t watched the Bears play at all, or is utterly clueless. The RBs are not the problem with the Bears running game. The problem with the Bears running game is they can’t block anyone, and teams don’t respect the downfield passing game so they crowd the line of scrimmage. They need help in a number of places, RB is not one of them.

Play calling and qb are the biggest reason for the struggles in the run game. I'd put the actual RBs and line play far below those two as the biggest problem. 

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14 minutes ago, twistd said:

On NFL.com they have an article with a trade target for each team. The trade target for the Bears was Kenyan Drake. Here is someone who either, hasn’t watched the Bears play at all, or is utterly clueless. The RBs are not the problem with the Bears running game. The problem with the Bears running game is they can’t block anyone, and teams don’t respect the downfield passing game so they crowd the line of scrimmage. They need help in a number of places, RB is not one of them.

I saw an article last week that said the Bears should trade for Gordon.

 

8 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

Play calling and qb are the biggest reason for the struggles in the run game. I'd put the actual RBs and line play far below those two as the biggest problem. 

You forgot about how horrible the O line has been. Kyle Long played matador before the put him on IR. I can't believe they let him stay in because it was obvious that something was wrong.  I thought it was the jet lag that made the coaching staff a little slow in London but have changed my mind after watching last week's play calling.  

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22 minutes ago, yoman said:

I saw an article last week that said the Bears should trade for Gordon.

 

You forgot about how horrible the O line has been. Kyle Long played matador before the put him on IR. I can't believe they let him stay in because it was obvious that something was wrong.  I thought it was the jet lag that made the coaching staff a little slow in London but have changed my mind after watching last week's play calling.  

I agree the line hasn't been good either.  I just don't think it's the number one reason for the poor running game. The line played much better against the Saints and it still didn't make a difference. Qb and coaching 

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18 hours ago, rockaction said:

For sure. But you had an appearance in the aughts, too, if I'm not mistaken. Rex Grossman and co.

I'd take it. 

Chicago is weird sports town with the Bears. Every season is compared to 85, and nothing will ever compare. That Super Bowl run in 2006 was a joyless slog on sports radio. Rex was pilloried about as much as Mitch is today. I was a kid in 85, so it was cool to see the 06 run. Hester was a blast to watch. That opening kick-off for a return, damn exciting. Manning was on a mission though.

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Nagy cant just switch to a power run game, even if he was inclined to (or mentally wired to).  

The roster is built for his version of the Andy Reid passing attack. There isn't a fullback on the roster. There isnt a tight end that can block down the line. The O-Line is meh, with a rookie center in over is head already, and they havent practiced that kind of scheme. 

Yes the Bears need to run more, but make no mistake, Trubisky sucking and Nagys offense looking bush league are fatal flaws this season. They went all in on this thing working. If they cant make it go, there is no plan B. 

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  • flapgreen changed the title to ***Chicago Bears Thread*** Justin Fields is up

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