Turkey invades Syria: Update- ISIS rebuilds

[timschochet 33,937]

I’ve started a new thread because the old one has a misleading title. And anyhow this is big news

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1063576

Edited November 20, 2019 by timschochet

[snitwitch 895]

huge gift to putin. funny how all roads seem to lead to moscow. i wonder why that is? 

[timschochet 33,937]

3 minutes ago, snitwitch said:

huge gift to putin. funny how all roads seem to lead to moscow. i wonder why that is? 

That’s one aspect. 

Another is a lot of innocent people, who we promised to protect, are going to die. 

[timschochet 33,937]

And it is now too late to reverse Trump’s decision. The damage is being done. 

[toshiba 2,132]

1 minute ago, timschochet said:

5 minutes ago, snitwitch said:

huge gift to putin. funny how all roads seem to lead to moscow. i wonder why that is? 

That’s one aspect. 

Another is a lot of innocent people, who we promised to protect, are going to die. 

There has not been US troop withdraw yet, correct?

[timschochet 33,937]

Just now, toshiba said:

There has not been US troop withdraw yet, correct?

Per the article linked yes. Contradictory news reports about that. 

[Ditkaless Wonders 16,252]

I understand that hydrogen peroxide is good for removing blood stains from fabric, but does it work for washing it from ones tiny hands?

[bigbottom 11,096]

6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

That’s one aspect. 

Another is a lot of innocent people, who we promised to protect, are going to die. 

I thought I heard this morning that Trump spoke with Erdogan and gave him the go ahead, but told him not to go too far.  Did I hear that correctly?

[Doug B 6,765]

What's Turkey's intention? To annex Syrian territory? Something else?

[Ditkaless Wonders 16,252]

5 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I thought I heard this morning that Trump spoke with Erdogan and gave him the go ahead, but told him not to go too far.  Did I hear that correctly?

Given Erdogan's temperament and history one wonders how he interprets direction to "Not go too far."

[Ditkaless Wonders 16,252]

6 minutes ago, Doug B said:

What's Turkey's intention? To annex Syrian territory? Something else?

To extinguish the ethnic Kurdish presence in the region, no?  Consequences be damned.

 

Whenever the consequences are to be damned I find that we all are those consequences.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Ditkaless Wonders

[Jobber 2,343]

Disgusting. Since this guy took office, and his actions since, the US can no longer be considered the "good guy" anymore. 

[Shula-holic 2,295]

4 minutes ago, Doug B said:

What's Turkey's intention? To annex Syrian territory? Something else?

Reading between the lines here, I think it's to keep a semi-autonomous home for the Kurds from developing.  Turkey has a fairly large population of Kurds who have long wanted their own homeland.  Turkey regards their armed forces as terrorists.  I don't think Turkey is planning on annexing Syrian land long term.  I wouldn't think that they would have moved in without at least a quiet assurance of non-intervention from Russia, even as Putin tells them to make sure they measure their actions.  I think Russia basically will view it as the Turks having to hold and police that land for now as opposed to them, as long as eventually Assad retains control.  There is also a plan for them to resettle Syrian refugees in that area.  Turkey does have a large number of refugees there, over 2.5 MM by one estimate I saw.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Shula-holic

[Ditkaless Wonders 16,252]

4 minutes ago, Jobber said:

Disgusting. Since this guy took office, and his actions since, the US can no longer be considered the "good guy" anymore. 

So one accomplishment of the Trump Administration is that he has aligned our self perception with the more general world view.  That may help us in understanding others.  That was probably his intent.  Not wagging the dog as I initially suspected.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Ditkaless Wonders

[Doug B 6,765]

Here's a BBC article from February 2018 that lays out some of the recent history in the Turkey-Syria border area. I hadn't realized how much the Turkish government regarded Kurds as a threat.

Syria war: Why Turkey's battle for northern Syria matters

Quote

 

Just look at Turkey's controversial offensive in Syria's northern region of Afrin [back in Feb 2018 - db], intended to extend Turkey's existing buffer zone inside the country and to evict Kurdish fighters from a broad swathe of territory.

The Ankara government sees the fighters as allies of Kurdish separatists inside Turkey. Indeed, despite various shifts in Turkish policy towards the conflict in Syria, opposition to Kurdish autonomy has been constant and absolute.

The Turks will simply not tolerate what they see as the threat posed by an autonomous Kurdish zone on their southern frontier. And they are clearly willing to use significant force to remove it.

 

 

[jamny 6,462]

Absolutely horrible

[timschochet 33,937]

15 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I thought I heard this morning that Trump spoke with Erdogan and gave him the go ahead, but told him not to go too far.  Did I hear that correctly?

No idea but I certainly would be interested in reading the transcript of those phone conversations. The FULL transcript. 

[timschochet 33,937]

2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

 I hadn't realized how much the Turkish government regarded Kurds as a threat.

Syria war: Why Turkey's battle for northern Syria matters

 

Once upon a time they regarded Armenians as a threat. 

[timschochet 33,937]

2 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Could somebody explain this? Who released these 10,000 ISIS fighters? Why? This seems bad...

@tribelaw

If some of the 10,000 ISIS fighters are released by Turkey’s imminent attack on the Kurds as a predictable result of Trump’s insane pullout, our president will have given “aid and comfort” to an enemy with whom we are at war under the AUMF. Read Article III of the Constitution.

5:33 AM · Oct 9, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

Not released yet. But they’re being held by the Kurds, and the Kurds have warned that they can’t hold them if they have to defend themselves against invasion. 

[Sinn Fein 33,978]

1 minute ago, Bucky86 said:

Could somebody explain this? Who released these 10,000 ISIS fighters? Why? This seems bad...

@tribelaw

If some of the 10,000 ISIS fighters are released by Turkey’s imminent attack on the Kurds as a predictable result of Trump’s insane pullout, our president will have given “aid and comfort” to an enemy with whom we are at war under the AUMF. Read Article III of the Constitution.

5:33 AM · Oct 9, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

My - very rudimentary - understanding is the US left them in custody - to be taken care of by the Kurds and/or Turkey.

If they are released - it will technically be at the hands of the Kurds and/or Turkey - but realistically it the US pulling out that is to blame.

But, I don't think any ISIS fighters have been released - yet.

[Workhorse 2,194]

2 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Could somebody explain this? Who released these 10,000 ISIS fighters? Why? This seems bad...

@tribelaw

If some of the 10,000 ISIS fighters are released by Turkey’s imminent attack on the Kurds as a predictable result of Trump’s insane pullout, our president will have given “aid and comfort” to an enemy with whom we are at war under the AUMF. Read Article III of the Constitution.

5:33 AM · Oct 9, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

So the Kurds have been holding the ISIS prisoners in Northern Syria for quite some time. With the US abandoning them and leaving them at the mercy of the Turkish military, the Kurds aren't going to stick around and certainly won't bring those prisoners with them. Hence, they will most likely go free.

Unconscionably stupid move on all fronts by this administration.

[Daywalker 3,034]

23 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I understand that hydrogen peroxide is good for removing blood stains from fabric, but does it work for washing it from ones tiny hands?

Not just on Trumps’ hands.

[Biff84 2,849]

3 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Could somebody explain this? Who released these 10,000 ISIS fighters? Why? This seems bad...

@tribelaw

If some of the 10,000 ISIS fighters are released by Turkey’s imminent attack on the Kurds as a predictable result of Trump’s insane pullout, our president will have given “aid and comfort” to an enemy with whom we are at war under the AUMF. Read Article III of the Constitution.

5:33 AM · Oct 9, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

The fighters are currently in prisons in Syria guarded by the Kurds. The Kurds have said that if Turkey invades, they will have to send the people guarding those prisoners to go fight the war, leaving them open for prisoners to be freed.

[Daywalker 3,034]

It is not just ISIS fighters to worry about now.  We just made millions of Kurds our enemy.

[Sinn Fein 33,978]

Just now, Workhorse said:

So the Kurds have been holding the ISIS prisoners in Northern Syria for quite some time. With the US abandoning them and leaving them at the mercy of the Turkish military, the Kurds aren't going to stick around and certainly won't bring those prisoners with them. Hence, they will most likely go free.

Unconscionably stupid move on all fronts by this administration.

I try to find humor in most anything - so I am imagining Trump watching this unfold in the situation room with Satellite cameras showing the ISIS prisoners fleeing the Kurdish prisons, and Trump yelling at the screen asking why the Kurds are letting them go free, while the Kurds fight for their lives... 

[Jayrok 3,666]

RE: Imprisoned ISIS fighters

What happens if Kurdish fighters, if under Turkish attack, decide to wipe out the ISIS captives in a desperate move to not have them freed... on their way out to fight invading Turks?  

[Biff84 2,849]

1 minute ago, Daywalker said:

Not just on Trumps’ hands.

Everyone who has enabled him is at fault. He’s been a ticking time bomb for his entire presidency and surrounded himself with under qualified yes men. This was bound to happen eventually. But hey we got those tax cuts, judges and liberal tears.

[timschochet 33,937]

1 minute ago, Jayrok said:

RE: Imprisoned ISIS fighters

What happens if Kurdish fighters, if under Turkish attack, decide to wipe out the ISIS captives in a desperate move to not have them freed... on their way out to fight invading Turks?  

Can i be frank? 

That would be cruel, savage, barbaric, against everything we believe...and better for us. 

[whoknew 8,856]

1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Can i be frank? 

That would be cruel, savage, barbaric, against everything we believe...and better for us. 

I thought you were tim?

[Jackstraw 4,381]

He's letting our allies get slaughtered. 

Cool cool cool. 

Man how far are we going down this rathole?

[Sinn Fein 33,978]

Just now, timschochet said:

Can i be frank? 

That would be cruel, savage, barbaric, against everything we believe...and better for us. 

I agree - until the last part.

It is decidedly not better for us - to uphold those values.  We win by doing the "right" thing.  We are not better when we condone the murder of prisoners.  It makes us a lesser nation - and that will cost us on many levels.

[Jayrok 3,666]

3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Can i be frank? 

That would be cruel, savage, barbaric, against everything we believe...and better for us. 

Hi Frank.  I do not disagree with anything you said.  

[timschochet 33,937]

Just now, Sinn Fein said:

I agree - until the last part.

It is decidedly not better for us - to uphold those values.  We win by doing the "right" thing.  We are not better when we condone the murder of prisoners.  It makes us a lesser nation - and that will cost us on many levels.

I didn’t say we should condone it. I wrote that it would be better for us if those prisoners were dead. Sorry but there it is. 

[Snorkelson 4,181]

4 minutes ago, Jayrok said:

RE: Imprisoned ISIS fighters

What happens if Kurdish fighters, if under Turkish attack, decide to wipe out the ISIS captives in a desperate move to not have them freed... on their way out to fight invading Turks?  

I thought about this- they take some guards from the prison, an uprising occurs, and the remaining guards mow the prisoners down. Seems like isis would have numbers though, and would eventually overtake them. 

[Jayrok 3,666]

1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

I agree - until the last part.

It is decidedly not better for us - to uphold those values.  We win by doing the "right" thing.  We are not better when we condone the murder of prisoners.  It makes us a lesser nation - and that will cost us on many levels.

No one said we would or should condone it.  Whatever happens is going to happen.  It would be appalling but those types of acts tend to happen in war-torn regions where men are desperate for survival.  Freed ISIS fighters could be available to attack the Kurds as well.   

[Godsbrother 7,010]

Well might as well pull any troops remaining in Iraq and all of the troops out Afghanistan while we are at it.   Let's really screw things up

[timschochet 33,937]

5 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

 We are not better when we condone the murder of prisoners.  It makes us a lesser nation - and that will cost us on many levels.

Also regarding this: we haven’t condoned it in the past, but we have done it: at the Bulge, at Okinawa, in Korea, in Vietnam. Even in the American south during the Civil War. We have a long history of murdering prisoners. 

[Summer Wheat 812]

11 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

So now we have to worry about 10,000 terrorists potentially going free? WTF

It has to be a concern, plus with our leaky border situation is something we all have to worry about in the future.

[bicycle_seat_sniffer 5,109]

awful.......impeach him NOW

[Godsbrother 7,010]

So is Graham and the Republicans going to follow through with "Sanctions from Hell" now?

[bicycle_seat_sniffer 5,109]

serious question.....how on earth is turkey a nato ally? given their terrible history of atrocities dating back to armenian genocide  in ww1 and now they are gonna blast the kurds

[timschochet 33,937]

Just now, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

serious question.....how on earth is turkey a nato ally? given their terrible history of atrocities dating back to armenian genocide  in ww1 and now they are gonna blast the kurds

They’re in NATO only because it was a buffer against Soviet expansion. 

[timschochet 33,937]

2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

So is Graham and the Republicans going to follow through with "Sanctions from Hell" now?

Prediction: they will pass a bill which Trump will veto and there won’t be enough to overturn him. 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer 5,109]

Just now, timschochet said:

They’re in NATO only because it was a buffer against Soviet expansion. 

so can we actually take economic action against a nato ally? what a mess

[Shula-holic 2,295]

Just now, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

so can we actually take economic action against a nato ally? what a mess

To add a layer here, they host some of our nuclear weapons.

[Godsbrother 7,010]

2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Prediction: they will pass a bill which Trump will veto and there won’t be enough to overturn him. 

McConnell typically blocks anything the great leader won;t sign

 

[Biff84 2,849]

3 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

awful.......impeach him NOW

This situation is exactly why I’m in the minority in believing that the Senate will vote to impeach him. No one knows where the bottom is and they don’t want to find out.

[sho nuff 16,877]

24 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

So now we have to worry about 10,000 terrorists potentially going free? WTF

Plus any remaining Kurds now becoming radicalized against the country that is abandoning them.

[Workhorse 2,194]

This is truly sad:

Quote

Syrian Kurds under bombardment from Turkish jets urgently request air support from U.S. and “No fly zone” to protect civilians: SDF statement

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer 5,109]

pretty good distraction from the ukraine/impeachment stuff eh?