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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better (4 Viewers)

Another thought to throw out there....it's unproductive for one to generalize the motives, abilities to control one's self etc to the entire board as if they have some sort of significant insight into what each individual poster is thinking.  Several from both sides do this constantly and as best I can tell it's usually a baseless and clueless claim that isn't reflected in the entirety of the forum rather their personal experiences (which are usually twisted to fit their negative view of posters and this forum).  We choose what our experiences are going to be here.  We choose them by how we respond to others and how we craft our thoughts in our original posts as well as what posts we choose to respond to at all.  It goes back to the comment I made a while back about asking people to do things that you aren't doing yourself.  If you aren't willing to do those things yourself, it's pretty unreasonable to expect others do them.

 
squistion said:
That is all very nice Joe, and while you can prohibit political topics, you won't be able to shut down any and all political discussion, as it bleeds into many topics in which the original thread or thread title was not political in nature (See Chick-Fil-A thread as a classic example. Or how about any thread reporting a mass shooting or terrorist attack?). If you are willing to delete all political references or discussion in FFA threads, fine, but then you will just be playing Whack-A-Mole and pretending that politics don't enter into non-political themed threads, which is unrealistic.

I was on record as being against the creation of this forum from the get go and sadly, most of my predictions as to how this would play out were prescient.  

If you shut down this forum, the bad guys* will have won, but do what you want to do, fine with me.

Edited to add or clarify:

* Those whose objective or goal was to get this forum shut down and political discussion ended. 
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Well isolating this stuff Made the ffA Great Again.  Interesting threads all over the front page rather than being banished to page 3 by Twitter bots.  Also it opened up more threads in this forum to get into specific issues.

 
squistion said:
Not specifically on this forum, no. But if you look back, from the beginning some people were saying this forum was unnecessary and for Joe and or the mods to shut it down. Were their exact words: "My goal is to shut this down" No, but from their comments when the PSF was first formed and from their subsequent posting history, it is not much of a leap to see that was their objective. 

Just my opinion and take on things.  
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Um.....is there a transcript?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Also it would be nice to discuss those topics without constantly involving Trump, which never ends well.  I can't tell you the number of times I've posted an opinion on a subject and get 10 replies "So you won't be voting for Trump in 2020 then?" or some similar reply that's nothing to do with the actual subject.   It ends the discussion every single time.

I mean go ahead and have a thread for Trump sucks.  Doesn't bother me one bit.  It's when it comes into every other thread it's awful.  I mean you can't discuss AOC or anyone else without a bunch of B-b-b-b-but Trump posts.  
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They do, the mob made it a point to turn the only pro-Trump thread into the Trump sucks thread.

 
Joe Bryant said:
No. I'm saying we need to decide if this political forum continues to exist. 

The FFA and Shark Pool would stay as they are with a non flexible stance on not allowing political topics. 
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Sorry, that is what I meant.    The FFA, SP forums will still be there with all the same people just talking about other topics.

 
I'll agree with a few others - this place really isn't that bad.  I understand it may be somewhat of a nightmare to moderate but it seems pretty tame, IMO.  I still think many of us (including myself) can do better and I'll try my best to do so and help remind my fellow man to do the same.

 
Without starting a whole thing (just explaining my position) the falsehood stiff wasn't in relation to just the transcript issue.  Its a long going thing and dates back and on two separate boards and multiple issues. At least with me...its why I just wont engage with the poster anymore after I confirmed the two board thing to me.  

 
Here is a list of thing NOT to do I posted in Joe's last thread:

1.  Only focus on  the weakest point to attack and ignore the strongest which might be agreeable.

2.  Project evil motives in people you disagree with.

3.  Throw in some personal jab.

4.  Exaggerate or twist what was said to create a strawman.

5.  Employ guilt by association. 

Pretty simple.  A lot of it does boil down into not making the discussion personal and try to find points you can agree on and then you can discuss points you disagree on.  

 
jon_mx said:
Here is a list of thing NOT to do I posted in Joe's last thread:

1.  Only focus on  the weakest point to attack and ignore the strongest which might be agreeable.
Click to expand...
This is a great one. I don't know how many times I had to delete the last sentence or two of a post because I know that's all anyone will focus on and the main point will get lost in the pile on. 

 
I would really like to see folks put forth more effort into steelmanning others' arguments. I am far more interested about reading position x vs position y than whether danny1982 is a better debater than HotToTrot69.

 
I post maybe twice a month in this forum. So glad it is here and not gumming up the FFA. Like I said in another thread...this whole issue will solve itself next January when Biden is sworn in. The traffic in this site will drop to next to nothing, so it really will take care of itself. There will be the occasional trolling, but the vast majority of this site leans left and you guys aren't going to eat your own. Problem solved. 

 
squistion said:
That is all very nice Joe, and while you can prohibit political topics, you won't be able to shut down any and all political discussion, as it bleeds into many topics in which the original thread or thread title was not political in nature (See Chick-Fil-A thread as a classic example. Or how about any thread reporting a mass shooting or terrorist attack?). If you are willing to delete all political references or discussion in FFA threads, fine, but then you will just be playing Whack-A-Mole and pretending that politics don't enter into non-political themed threads, which is unrealistic.

I was on record as being against the creation of this forum from the get go and sadly, most of my predictions as to how this would play out were prescient.  

If you shut down this forum, the bad guys* will have won, but do what you want to do, fine with me.

Edited to add or clarify:

* Those whose objective or goal was to get this forum shut down and political discussion ended. 
Click to expand...
Bad guys,,good guys??..that does not really make any sense in this forum.   Who is a good guy?  Who is a bad guy?  I guess it depends on your view of things. Everybody can be good or bad on a given day. I mean I have seen your name tossed around quite a few times for trolling as well in the past.  Are you a bad guy or a good guy?

 
Koya said:
Ooof, I broke that rule here.  And dammit, there I go again.

:stonedbanana:

(if we only put in the freaking :wastedbanana: and :stonedbanana: emojis, back when we still just called them smilies, this would be a far different place.  Jus' saying)
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I do think if we could log in “drinking profile” to warn everyone we’ve had a few it would be helpful. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I'm not going to make a decision today when I'm this sad and discouraged.

I've got an important thing I have to be there for this weekend so I'll pick this back up next week. Best to y'all. 
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I may be misinterpreting, but it sounds like if we keep you sad and discouraged we get to keep posting here.  Am I getting that right?

 
timschochet said:
Putting aside every thing else, your assumption that liberals don’t criticize each other is extremely dubious. 
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Do you honestly believe that, if Biden is elected, we are going to have 2-3 new threads posted each day about how he sucks or a criminal or whatever? It isn't going to happen. This place will dry up like no tomorrow. 

The biggest thread that will exist is Biden isn't "Left" enough for some. 

Sorry Tim, Biden is boring and safe and there will be little to complain about him. 

 
Courtjester said:
Do you honestly believe that, if Biden is elected, we are going to have 2-3 new threads posted each day about how he sucks or a criminal or whatever? It isn't going to happen. This place will dry up like no tomorrow. 

The biggest thread that will exist is Biden isn't "Left" enough for some. 

Sorry Tim, Biden is boring and safe and there will be little to complain about him. 
Click to expand...
Biden isn't winning anything though

 
Courtjester said:
Do you honestly believe that, if Biden is elected, we are going to have 2-3 new threads posted each day about how he sucks or a criminal or whatever? It isn't going to happen. This place will dry up like no tomorrow. 

The biggest thread that will exist is Biden isn't "Left" enough for some. 

Sorry Tim, Biden is boring and safe and there will be little to complain about him. 
Click to expand...
I agree things will become a little quieter- not just in this forum but in the country. Anyone normal, Democrat or Republican, will allow  us to catch our breath and I’m looking forward to that. 

But even if Trump exits the stage, the issues that put him there in the first place are all still very much with us. None of them have been resolved. 

 
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I haven't read more than the first few posts in this thread but I have a suggestion.

@Joe Bryant

I hesitate to offer this idea because it was tried at the Huddle and that board eventually died. I don't think this is an apples to apples situation though.

So at the Huddle here is some history...

The Tailgate (FFA there) had too many political posts which ticked off the moderators who kept asking people to stop. They eventually created a private password only no moderated forum where we could have our political discussions. The Tailgate basically died by splitting the forums. Plus posters would still post stuff in the Tailgate which was pretty tame actually and a mod there went over the top on bannings which led to a mass exodus of long term posters.

So here I think is a little different. You have already split the forums and there is lots of traffic in each. Why not simply make this PSF a password only place, drop the moderation (or at least give it a light touch.) This keeps the politics out of the FFA but still gives us an outlet for politics. It protects the name brand as posters who are given the keys have an understanding that you need to have a little bit of thicker skin to get the password and post here. Not every little perceived slight needs to be reported.

I think this is a much better approach than killing this forum and banning all political talk. You are going to have alot of posters leave if you do so. Maybe that's the idea. Your show, your decision. Thanks Joe.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
might as well shut it down joe......as far as im concerned trump supporters are a giant problem....i was a gop voter for awhile....never again...giant stain on our country and when trump goes back to being nothing but a twitter troll only the hardcore politic guys will care...fire it back uo then
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@squistion I was wrong, here is someone who wants the forum shut down.  Is he a bad guy?  Sounds like he is blaming Republicans so you are in a dilemma here.

 
I"m a lurker and enjoy reading the threads here and post occasionally.  

My input is shut it down. I see where Joe is coming from and it is not about money, paying mods, etc.  It is about the effort he has to put into trying to keep the forum in line with what he wants his brand to represent.  

When you look at everyone responding they want to keep it up and running the majority really are the issue posters and it will not change.  Many have aliases which you can see time to time as they switch out or by the tone and composition of the posts. I assume this is because they have been banned and want to continue what they believe is a conversation. This tells me it will never change.

I respect Joe for giving everyone a chance before making a decision.   This is a good community outside of this forum  and the boards are great.

Thanks for all the hard work Joe.

 
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snitwitch said:
also will point out these are unique and dangerous times we're living through, and part of the reason they are unique and dangerous is the rise of internet-fueled polarization and misinformation.

the PSF reflects this new reality but it's also a place where many posters learned about this new reality and became better informed citizens because of it
Click to expand...
Can we pin this?

 
The more I think about this, the more I come up with terrible analogies. (it's what I'm best at) 

I see this board being similar to a really good steakhouse that also tries to do seafood. But, they reside in middle America and the cost involved to bring in fresh seafood makes the overall product difficult to offer at a five star level. They have numerous beef suppliers from the local region and probably have the best steaks within a thousand miles. People complain about the seafood all the time. Yelp is filled with just as many negative reviews about the seafood as there are positive ones about the steak. Eventually, they just eliminate it in order to do what they do best. You can't really blame them for making the decision. They still have the best steakhouse around and those customers are much more satisfied.

The only caveat is the few people that enjoyed the sub par lobster bisque. But, they weren't driving the busy anyway. 

Ultimately, I think we all need to take pause and realize that our actions have caused Joe such pain. He tried to give us something nice and we ruined it. He doesn't spend a lot of time talking politics, so it served him no purpose. Yet he shoulders the blame.

 
KCitons said:
The more I think about this, the more I come up with terrible analogies. (it's what I'm best at) 

I see this board being similar to a really good steakhouse that also tries to do seafood. But, they reside in middle America and the cost involved to bring in fresh seafood makes the overall product difficult to offer at a five star level. They have numerous beef suppliers from the local region and probably have the best steaks within a thousand miles. People complain about the seafood all the time. Yelp is filled with just as many negative reviews about the seafood as there are positive ones about the steak. Eventually, they just eliminate it in order to do what they do best. You can't really blame them for making the decision. They still have the best steakhouse around and those customers are much more satisfied.

The only caveat is the few people that enjoyed the sub par lobster bisque. But, they weren't driving the busy anyway. 

Ultimately, I think we all need to take pause and realize that our actions have caused Joe such pain. He tried to give us something nice and we ruined it. He doesn't spend a lot of time talking politics, so it served him no purpose. Yet he shoulders the blame.
Click to expand...
If would stop reporting stuff that is minor it would solve a lot of the problems.  I can't imagine having to deal with all the reports.  

 
Joe, that’s for taking the weekend to think about this and giving us a chance to make this work.  Obviously this attempt is going to fail as evidenced by several of the recent posts 

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
might as well shut it down joe......as far as im concerned trump supporters are a giant problem....i was a gop voter for awhile....never again...giant stain on our country and when trump goes back to being nothing but a twitter troll only the hardcore politic guys will care...fire it back uo then
Click to expand...
🐏

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
might as well shut it down joe......as far as im concerned trump supporters are a giant problem....i was a gop voter for awhile....never again...giant stain on our country and when trump goes back to being nothing but a twitter troll only the hardcore politic guys will care...fire it back uo then
Click to expand...
You aren’t helping with this post - please try to not ruin this forum for the rest of us.

 
KCitons said:
Ultimately, I think we all need to take pause and realize that our actions have caused Joe such pain. He tried to give us something nice and we ruined it. He doesn't spend a lot of time talking politics, so it served him no purpose. Yet he shoulders the blame.
Click to expand...
Also recently, Joe can't even post articles (simply for the sake of discussion) on his own board anymore without his intentions being brought into question. Like, give it a rest.

 
ShamrockPride said:
Also recently, Joe can't even post articles (simply for the sake of discussion) on his own board anymore without his intentions being brought into question. Like, give it a rest.
Click to expand...
It's been really frustrating to watch that. Bad faith and bad motive are applied as reasons for starting the thread no more than ten-fifteen posts in. It really would behoove people to take a step back and realize who provides the forum, at what cost, etc.

But of course, they don't.

 
KCitons said:
The more I think about this, the more I come up with terrible analogies. (it's what I'm best at) 

I see this board being similar to a really good steakhouse that also tries to do seafood. But, they reside in middle America and the cost involved to bring in fresh seafood makes the overall product difficult to offer at a five star level. They have numerous beef suppliers from the local region and probably have the best steaks within a thousand miles. People complain about the seafood all the time. Yelp is filled with just as many negative reviews about the seafood as there are positive ones about the steak. Eventually, they just eliminate it in order to do what they do best. You can't really blame them for making the decision. They still have the best steakhouse around and those customers are much more satisfied.

The only caveat is the few people that enjoyed the sub par lobster bisque. But, they weren't driving the busy anyway. 

Ultimately, I think we all need to take pause and realize that our actions have caused Joe such pain. He tried to give us something nice and we ruined it. He doesn't spend a lot of time talking politics, so it served him no purpose. Yet he shoulders the blame.
Click to expand...
I'm inspired to come up with my own bad analogy.  

 
timschochet said:
Simply put: discuss the issue and not the poster.
Click to expand...
You hit this on page 1 and later you noted how there are two perspectives:

1.  Trump-Haters:  "If only we eliminated a couple trolls"

2.  Non-Trump Haters:  "This place is hostile towards us"

@Cowboysfan8 made this excellent post on page 4:

"Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here."

Now there were 10 people who liked that post.  Maybe 10 does not seem like a lot, but in a forum who is 87 percent anti-Trump that represents nearly every non-Trump hater left.  

Now I would probably be identified by group one above as the number 1 "troll" on this forum.  But what do I troll about?  I point out the hostility directed towards posters including myself that is constantly on display in this forum.  That apparently is trolling.

Now my desire has never been to not kill this forum or create a distraction from the usual trump-hating discussions.  My desire is to have a forum which treats all posters in a more excellent manner.   

So we have people like @Cowboysfan8, @rockaction, @Da Guru, @Shula-holic, @Ramblin Wreck, 

@knowledge dropper, @Widbil83, @HellToupee, and @Don't Noonan who will tell you this place is hostile towards them.  You have the entire FFA who will tell you they don't like the environment here.  Joe has friends that tell him they would not post here. 

So are all these people imagining how terrible this place treats opposing opinions?  You really think banning a few posters like me changes anything? 

All I am is the messenger.  You may be tired of hearing me (and I know you are), but I am not speaking just for myself.  Having all these people man-up and not be a 'woman' is NOT the solution.  Treating people with respect IS the answer.  Having a forum which is good nature and welcoming to all non-hateful viewpoints IS the answer.

So this forum can collectively stay in denial and be gone in a couple of weeks.  Or more people can start to acknowledge the real root of the problem and be more vigilant in weeding it out.  Be more excellent folks.  It is as simple as that.  

 
@jon_mx

Don’t know why I’m up. Insomnia I guess. But I thought your post was excellent and you really pinpointed one of the big issues here. But in addition to that issue that you were narrowly focused on there are 3 others that are also causing the problem: 

1. Posts that are intended to cause confrontation and discord, rather than serious  discussion and debate. 

2. Posts in which people whine and complain about how poorly they or their side are being treated in this forum, by other posters, by the moderators, etc. Whether or not these complaints are justified or not is completely beside the point. 

3. Excessive, unnecessary reporting of other people. 

You eliminate these problems along with one you mentioned and we’re all good here. 

 
timschochet said:
@jon_mx

Don’t know why I’m up. Insomnia I guess. But I thought your post was excellent and you really pinpointed one of the big issues here. But in addition to that issue that you were narrowly focused on there are 3 others that are also causing the problem: 

1. Posts that are intended to cause confrontation and discord, rather than serious  discussion and debate. 

2. Posts in which people whine and complain about how poorly they or their side are being treated in this forum, by other posters, by the moderators, etc. Whether or not these complaints are justified or not is completely beside the point. 

3. Excessive, unnecessary reporting of other people. 

You eliminate these problems along with one you mentioned and we’re all good here. 
Click to expand...
Those problems all go away if people are more excellent.  And really, if there is a serious problem, is it wrong to whine about it?  Forgive this over the top analogy, but that is like blaming the me-too movement for complaining about rape too much.  This forum is very much hostile towards anyone who defends Trump in even the slightest way.  That is the root of the problem.  The messenger IS NOT the problem.  

 
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timschochet said:
In this forum? About other posters or the moderators? Yeah. It’s wrong regardless. No place for it. 
Click to expand...
So people should just shut up and accept other people being crappy towards them?  And you wonder why this place is going to be shut down.  

 
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