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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Koya
- Start date
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
From what I read the FFA and Shark Pool and other forums will still be open and we will adapt as people do. My dad always told me to never talk politics or religion unless you want it to get ugly. Well it looks like they are tired of the ugly here.
KCitons
Footballguy
I think I addressed both of those issues. One with a subscription. Perhaps a modified subscription of $10 a year to have access to the PSF forum. It then pays for itself and volunteer mods free up time.
sho nuff
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Well then, it was a good run.
Last one out, turn off the lights.
Sincerely, thank you Joe for giving us a place to discuss the political issues of our times. You have to do what's best for you and your mental well being.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Again, money is not the issue. There isn't a dollar amount I'd put up with to be accused of subjugating the truth and limiting people's ability to disagree. With a product that's mostly snark, condescension, bullying anyone with a different opinion and vitriol. I'm sick of enabling that.
But who is a troll? People are accused all the time of trolling. In most cases it is not trolling. There are real people who support Trump and are quite sincere. If this forum really stopped attacking every Trump supporter who wanders in you would get more serious postings.
Yes. And I apologize. I realize I'm whining and being dramatic. (cue my don't whine line). Right or wrong, it's become personal for me. It's still a business decision. But for me, sometimes those are intertwined more than I care to admit.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Yep. I'll adapt for sure. That wasn't what I was implying. I meant my adulthood memories, habits, ways of processing and learning the day's news, etc. Funny, I had a feeling about six months to a year ago that this was getting so, so ugly that it would no longer be tenable for morality or business to keep it going, but that was a fleeting feeling.
The FFA and the SP will still be there, for sure, but this also left an indelible mark on my days.
squistion
Footballguy
Good point, as those people are almost impossible to identify from their posting history.
rockaction
Footballguy
Whoa, Joe. I know you tried, and tried to high heaven to make this work, and it sounds like you've just had it. I honestly don't think, given the personalities that gravitate to this area of the board, that it'll change fundamentally no matter what you do. So I guess you're left with that. Which is too bad.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
This forum is remarkable. It really is. I'm sure there are communities like this elsewhere but this place is unique. You deserve credit for this place.
Many of us have built something here more than just an anonymous avatar and attitude. Nuking it because it represents the current normal is short sightened in a purely academic sense. The talk here is a great record of the politics of our time. And there is still significantly more good than bad.
I get the heartless economic reason you might. That's your call. Your pond. Always has been. I hope it doesn't happen though. I grant I don't post nearly as much as I used to, but that is part my business killing me and part my choice not to tilt at windmills and argue the color of the sky.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
Agreed. The thought of it makes me honestly sad.
@Joe Bryant - I fully understand your reasons and thoughts about closing the PSF, it’s truly heartbreaking for me to think it might go away. Not just for the loss I’ll feel about a place I’ve gained so much from but for the broader statement it makes about our inability to communicate, compromise and be ok with our differences of opinions. Unfortunately it’s a reflection of where we are as a country right now, that’s a scary thought honestly. Obviously I hope the day doesn’t come where you have make the difficult decision you’re contemplating, but know the overwhelming majority truly appreciate the space you’ve provided for us here. It means a lot to a lot of us.
rockaction
Footballguy
I'd like to second my GB dkp993's sentiments and just say that we're an example of two posters that respect each other even if we don't always agree with each other's politics. And there's a ton of that on this board; it just doesn't seem to rise like cream to the top. It's too bad, really. Lots of people I disagree with here that I've come to have at least a cordial understanding with. I'll miss that.
There are plenty of posters who would be fair. There are no posters who would be perceived as fair by the people who bear the brunt of their moderation.
The Commish
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Exactly what I 'whine' about everytime. Is it that hard to stop? It really should not be. But unfotunately it really is how people debate these days. This place is far better than most because the mods at least try to keep it civil. But once you start assuming and injecting evil motives about the other party onto the discussion, it is hard to stop that snowball.
I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult. I've had one person on ignore here since this forum opened, and I wound up removing him. I just don't allow myself to get worked up over his posts, or what anyone posts for that matter. If someone lies, trolls, insults, attacks, or in any way acts like a tool here, I just move on from their post. If someone is making an obviously bad faith argument, I disregard it and move to the next post. There is plenty of really intriguing conversation in this forum, it's just not that hard to disregard the bad actors in my opinion.
As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of it could be remedied by just staying on topic, and not posting about the poster. Stop trying to fix the people you think are idiots here. Ignore them, disregard them, and stay on topic. There is no value in trying to change the minds of those who you know do not see things the way you do. Things are too polarized and people on the extremes aren't interested reconsidering their stances. You aren't going to save the world by pointing out when someone is lying, or obfuscating, or twisting the facts on this forum. Most people who participate here are plenty engaged and smart enough to know when this is happening, and we don't need board heroes to save us from it. If those of you who truly want to discuss the topics just talked right past the obvious bad actors, they would run out of steam. Stop engaging them, stop responding to them, stop feeling like everything needs a reply or a correction.
I've really enjoyed reading the thoughts of a number of the high value posters in this forum. The aggregation of news that takes place here is second to none. I do think it would be a loss if this forum goes away, and would greatly reduce the frequency in which I visit these forums... but I do understand. It's a shame though, we are in some truly unique times politically, and it's been fantastic to come here and read the discussions that take place about these times. I share KCitons view, I'm a level below many of the posters who's content I value when it comes to IQ. That's why I really enjoy reading their content, they give me something to think about, an angle I didn't consider, a perspective I do not have. It would be a loss if this went away, but I understand. It's just a shame.
As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of it could be remedied by just staying on topic, and not posting about the poster. Stop trying to fix the people you think are idiots here. Ignore them, disregard them, and stay on topic. There is no value in trying to change the minds of those who you know do not see things the way you do. Things are too polarized and people on the extremes aren't interested reconsidering their stances. You aren't going to save the world by pointing out when someone is lying, or obfuscating, or twisting the facts on this forum. Most people who participate here are plenty engaged and smart enough to know when this is happening, and we don't need board heroes to save us from it. If those of you who truly want to discuss the topics just talked right past the obvious bad actors, they would run out of steam. Stop engaging them, stop responding to them, stop feeling like everything needs a reply or a correction.
I've really enjoyed reading the thoughts of a number of the high value posters in this forum. The aggregation of news that takes place here is second to none. I do think it would be a loss if this forum goes away, and would greatly reduce the frequency in which I visit these forums... but I do understand. It's a shame though, we are in some truly unique times politically, and it's been fantastic to come here and read the discussions that take place about these times. I share KCitons view, I'm a level below many of the posters who's content I value when it comes to IQ. That's why I really enjoy reading their content, they give me something to think about, an angle I didn't consider, a perspective I do not have. It would be a loss if this went away, but I understand. It's just a shame.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
What I read into this and know firsthand is that there are a bunch of other boards that the insults, snarkyness and just plain inability to converse is common practice. With so few actual regulars in the PSF it becomes even more hostile and personal. Not sure that is what they are looking for here anymore.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I guess that gets into my point 2 (longer or permanent suspensions). People who can’t respect the rules and/or cry about unfair treatment shouldn’t be allowed to post here.
It very well might be a lost cause regardless though.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
People want to argue politics. If they block the people they argue with, they can’t argue.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
If this place closes, I will 
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
60-40???????
kwille
Footballguy
Not sure I can articulate this properly but it seems that this forum (and most modern political discourse) suffers from some degree of "I can't win on substance so I'm going to attack the process" vibe which leads to disingenuous postings which trigger nasty responses that lead to unproductive and unending back and forth squabbling.
timschochet
Footballguy
@Joe Bryant
I hope you take a deep breath and think about this. At the moment you’re negative, understandably so, because of all the whining you have to deal with and the vitriol and the sniping and it’s not worth your time to deal with it.
But there’s a positive side too that you may not be considering. Even now, a lot of the discussion here is great, informative and illuminating. Conservatives and liberals argue and discuss things back and forth, and that’s unusual these days when everyone goes off into their own little corner. I think political forums like this one, open and welcoming to all sides, are necessary and healthy. Despite all the crap, I really believe that this forum provides a value to our society in a small way.
What I’m trying to say is that you have achieved something special here. Something important. Something that I think you can be proud of- maybe not tonight but over time.
I hope you take a deep breath and think about this. At the moment you’re negative, understandably so, because of all the whining you have to deal with and the vitriol and the sniping and it’s not worth your time to deal with it.
But there’s a positive side too that you may not be considering. Even now, a lot of the discussion here is great, informative and illuminating. Conservatives and liberals argue and discuss things back and forth, and that’s unusual these days when everyone goes off into their own little corner. I think political forums like this one, open and welcoming to all sides, are necessary and healthy. Despite all the crap, I really believe that this forum provides a value to our society in a small way.
What I’m trying to say is that you have achieved something special here. Something important. Something that I think you can be proud of- maybe not tonight but over time.
timschochet
Footballguy
And I have a selfish request- and I know I can’t be the only one here feeling this: @Joe Bryant you’ve had to deal now with 3 years of the Trump presidency and all of our reactions to it- so at least give us one more year, through the election. I’m too invested in this ongoing discussion to lose all of these people now I’ve been talking to, admiring, arguing with. We’ve got to see it through and find out how it all ends and gauge each other’s reactions through all of the amazing events that are going to occur over the next 12 months.
So please give us that much and in exchange we will really try to get better. If it’s a lost cause then shut it down after next November. But allow us to finish our story.
So please give us that much and in exchange we will really try to get better. If it’s a lost cause then shut it down after next November. But allow us to finish our story.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
As others have said, I'd be pretty sad to see the PSF disappear.
The FBG forums have been a constant in my life from late high school to my early 30's, but if I'm being honest fantasy football has become less and less of a "passion" for me over those years. The thing that keeps me coming back is the sense of community that's been built over the years, but my interests (especially in the last few years) have skewed far more toward politics than pop culture, etc. I get exposure to political view points here that I never get in "real" life because of where I live and what my friend groups are and I really value that exposure.
Honestly, if the PSF went away I'd probably all but stop coming around. Hope you decide to keep the doors open, @Joe Bryant, but I understand it's your call to do what's best for you and your business.
The FBG forums have been a constant in my life from late high school to my early 30's, but if I'm being honest fantasy football has become less and less of a "passion" for me over those years. The thing that keeps me coming back is the sense of community that's been built over the years, but my interests (especially in the last few years) have skewed far more toward politics than pop culture, etc. I get exposure to political view points here that I never get in "real" life because of where I live and what my friend groups are and I really value that exposure.
Honestly, if the PSF went away I'd probably all but stop coming around. Hope you decide to keep the doors open, @Joe Bryant, but I understand it's your call to do what's best for you and your business.
jomar
Footballguy
if people could just lay off of the stinky bait, all problems are solved. it reminds me of a cartoon I can vaguely remember, where a sheepdog and a wolf (not sure if these were the characters but something similar) punch a time clock and then they start quarreling. the 5 oclock bell rings and they stop fighting, punch out, say see you tomorrow, and come back the next day to do it all over again. just stop responding to the 'trolls'. its apparent we're no longer allowed to correct misinformation because its considered snarky and condescending. but I come here for some pretty good analysis by people like SID, MT, HF, and many more. so please, JUST STOP RESPONDING TO OBVIOUS STINKY BAIT.
would it be possible that eligibility to post in the PSF has to be earned? so that I could still read the posts by the smart people without the misinformation and talking points?
would it be possible that eligibility to post in the PSF has to be earned? so that I could still read the posts by the smart people without the misinformation and talking points?
mcintyre1
Footballguy
That's a good point, but would it be possible to have it effectively be an anonymous process? Ask for 'applications' to be a moderator or reach out to specific posters you'd trust and treat it like Fight Club? To be clear, I have no illusions that I'd be on that list -- I've only ever been given a short timeout years ago, but I feel like someone who has been banned in the past shouldn't be trusted as a moderator.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I haven’t read all the posts but I saw someone suggested volunteer mods which, of course, isn’t a great idea. How about instead we take the self-policing idea and see if a couple of folks on opposite sides of the aisle want to help remind others on their side to act cool? Just a thought and would hopefully show the mods that we want to keep a civil discussion.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Honestly man I don't think he cares what you're invested in. The best way to keep this place open is not to beg and plead but start behaving and follow his rules. I mean he's only said it about 100 times.
Redwes25
Footballguy
This is exactly correct. Stop responding to the trolls. There are clearly a handful of poster that are looking to get a rise of people. Ignore them and this whole place gets a lot better.
People know who they are so not like it is hard to do it.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think it would be helpful for people to think of this place as a neighborhood bar and Joe and David as proprietors/bartenders.
If you don’t like the bar owner, stop going. If you get out of line, you leave and maybe they let you back in. If something they say or do is so important you have to have a conversation with them about how unacceptable it is, be prepared to not get to drink there anymore if you act inappropriately during the conversation and be prepared to tell them you’ll leave.
If you like the bar, don’t start trouble with the other customers. That’s just jerk behavior.
If you can’t take some good natured ribbing about anything, maybe don’t come drink at the bar. If the bar is a “cesspool” or the owner lets the patrons be mean to you and everyone can say “okay, see you in an hour” maybe the issue is you and not the bar.
Above all, when you’re at the bar, don’t be a jerk. Nobody wants a group of jerks at the bar. Argue, get mad, tell somebody off, whatever, but it’s happening in a bar. It’s not personal or, if it is, it’s rare and that person should be 86’d.
At least that’s how I feel.
If you don’t like the bar owner, stop going. If you get out of line, you leave and maybe they let you back in. If something they say or do is so important you have to have a conversation with them about how unacceptable it is, be prepared to not get to drink there anymore if you act inappropriately during the conversation and be prepared to tell them you’ll leave.
If you like the bar, don’t start trouble with the other customers. That’s just jerk behavior.
If you can’t take some good natured ribbing about anything, maybe don’t come drink at the bar. If the bar is a “cesspool” or the owner lets the patrons be mean to you and everyone can say “okay, see you in an hour” maybe the issue is you and not the bar.
Above all, when you’re at the bar, don’t be a jerk. Nobody wants a group of jerks at the bar. Argue, get mad, tell somebody off, whatever, but it’s happening in a bar. It’s not personal or, if it is, it’s rare and that person should be 86’d.
At least that’s how I feel.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Also, if someone wants to talk to the crazy drunk in the corner, as long as he isn’t being a jerk to the poor guy, let him.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
This forum is far from open and welcoming to all sides. Not when it’s 75-25, or 85-15, or 95-5. The mob here bullies, or tries to. Only the strong stand up for their beliefs and aren’t fazed by the mob. Wishfully both sides could learn a thing or two from the other side, but sadly the mission of this forum is to punish the minorty conservative voices. You make it personal a lot of the time Tim.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Agreed. Plenty of us were invested in the yoga pants thread, and we had to say goodbye to that. Things end. Such is life.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
In my honest opinion, I think the FFA will die without the PSF. Some will find this opinion crazy, I’m sure, but there are a lot of smart, knowledgeable, quality posters that will tire of the FFA if politics are banned everywhere.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
This forum allows me to talk politics with knowledgeable folks on the other side and helps me understand where they are coming from. Sure, certain trolls attack me for an opposing view but it is a public message board and I could care less. There have been some positive exchanges in this thread so hopefully folks will change.
rockaction
Footballguy
Me and Squis were against the subforum in the first place because politics is inextricable from life and I thought that quarantining is the first before death. I also knew it would be the same posters, over and over ad nauseum, and that they'd get sick of each other.
It happened. :(
HellToupee
Footballguy
People will be on their best behavior for a day or two. Unfortunately in these times it’s rinse and repeat
Mister CIA
Footballguy
I suggest bringing in an ombudsman.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Also the bar owner has every right to ban customers or even close down if he does not like the clientele. I think I do understand as they are getting away from yoga pants, who is hottest and politics for a reason. It is a business. We will meet up in the FFA and talk about different things and possibly all be happier.
