Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Sorry, I'm confused. (it's the low IQ) 

You stated that the forums operate at a net loss. And I understand that the SP drives subscriptions. If it's not money, then it's time? Is adding volunteer moderators a poor option? You could still oversee how things are being conducted, but there are plenty of people here that are level headed. You could have a checks and balance system to make sure things stay in line with your vision. 

It's time and energy. And yes, volunteers are not an option for moderating. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 892
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult.  I've had one person on igno

I think this subforum would function more smoothly if everybody put everybody else on ignore.

@Joe Bryant I slept on this and thought about how you are approaching this. A couple of thoughts. - You're taking ownership for other people's actions. I think that's being unfair to yourself. Yo

1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Whoa. Didn't know it was that close to done. Part of my adulthood will go with it. 

From what I read the FFA and Shark Pool and other forums will still be open and we will adapt as people do. My dad always told me to never talk politics or religion unless you want it to get ugly.  Well it looks like they are tired of the ugly here. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

The way I read it, and Joe can certainly speak for himself, is this forum costs him overhead in both significant time and money to operate without generating any revenue. Then to have to commit more moderator time to it given the tone even makes it more a negative cost. 

I think I addressed both of those issues. One with a subscription. Perhaps a modified subscription of $10 a year to have access to the PSF forum. It then pays for itself and volunteer mods free up time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

It's time and energy. And yes, volunteers are not an option for moderating. 

Well then, it was a good run. 

Last one out, turn off the lights.

Sincerely, thank you Joe for giving us a place to discuss the political issues of our times. You have to do what's best for you and your mental well being. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KCitons said:

I think I addressed both of those issues. One with a subscription. Perhaps a modified subscription of $10 a year to have access to the PSF forum. It then pays for itself and volunteer mods free up time.

I think it’s more personal to him than about the money.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KCitons said:

I think I addressed both of those issues. One with a subscription. Perhaps a modified subscription of $10 a year to have access to the PSF forum. It then pays for itself and volunteer mods free up time.

Again, money is not the issue. There isn't a dollar amount I'd put up with to be accused of subjugating the truth and limiting people's ability to disagree. With a product that's mostly snark, condescension, bullying anyone with a different opinion and vitriol. I'm sick of enabling that. 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, timschochet said:

I also think that if you shut this place down it would be a huge victory for the trolls. I think they would love it, and would love to shut down as many sites for decent political discussion as they can.

But who is a troll?  People are accused all the time of trolling.   In most cases it is not trolling.  There are real people who support Trump and are quite sincere.  If this forum really stopped attacking every Trump supporter who wanders in you would get more serious postings.   

  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I think it’s more personal to him than about the money.

Yes. And I apologize. I realize I'm whining and being dramatic. (cue my don't whine line). Right or wrong, it's become personal for me. It's still a business decision. But for me, sometimes those are intertwined more than I care to admit. 

Edited by Joe Bryant
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

From what I read the FFA and Shark Pool and other forums will still be open and we will adapt as people do. My dad always told me to never talk politics or religion unless you want it to get ugly.  Well it looks like they are tired of the ugly here.

Yep. I'll adapt for sure. That wasn't what I was implying. I meant my adulthood memories, habits, ways of processing and learning the day's news, etc. Funny, I had a feeling about six months to a year ago that this was getting so, so ugly that it would no longer be tenable for morality or business to keep it going, but that was a fleeting feeling.

The FFA and the SP will still be there, for sure, but this also left an indelible mark on my days.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

But who is a troll?  People are accused all the time of trolling.   In most cases it is not trolling.  There are real people who support Trump and are quite sincere.  If this forum really stopped attacking every Trump supporter who wanders in you would get more serious postings.   

Good point, as those people are almost impossible to identify from their posting history. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Again, money is not the issue. There isn't a dollar amount I'd put up with to be accused of subjugating the truth and limiting people's ability to disagree. With a product that's mostly snark, condescension, bullying anyone with a different opinion and vitriol. I'm sick of enabling that. 

Whoa, Joe. I know you tried, and tried to high heaven to make this work, and it sounds like you've just had it. I honestly don't think, given the personalities that gravitate to this area of the board, that it'll change fundamentally no matter what you do. So I guess you're left with that. Which is too bad. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

It does serve that purpose for the FFA guy who doesn't want the ugliness as it removes it from the FFA and puts it here.

But it doesn't solve my problem. Here is still under my responsibility. 

This forum is remarkable. It really is. I'm sure there are communities like this elsewhere but this place is unique. You deserve credit for this place.

Many of us have built something here more than just an anonymous avatar and attitude.  Nuking it because it represents the current normal is short sightened in a purely academic sense. The talk here is a great record of the politics of our time.   And there is still significantly more good than bad. 

I get the heartless economic reason you might. That's your call. Your pond. Always has been. I hope it doesn't happen though. I grant I don't post nearly as much as I used to, but that is part my business killing me and part my choice not to tilt at windmills and argue the color of the sky.  

  • Like 6
  • Love 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Whoa. Didn't know it was that close to done. Part of my adulthood will go with it. 

Agreed.  The thought of it makes me honestly sad. 

@Joe Bryant - I fully understand your reasons and thoughts about closing the PSF, it’s truly heartbreaking for me to think it might go away.  Not just for the loss I’ll feel about a place I’ve gained so much from but for the broader statement it makes about our inability to communicate, compromise and be ok with our differences of opinions.   Unfortunately it’s a reflection of where we are as a country right now, that’s a scary thought honestly.   Obviously I hope the day doesn’t come where you have make the difficult decision you’re contemplating, but know the overwhelming majority truly appreciate the space you’ve provided for us here.  It means a lot to a lot of us.   

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to second my GB dkp993's sentiments and just say that we're an example of two posters that respect each other even if we don't always agree with each other's politics. And there's a ton of that on this board; it just doesn't seem to rise like cream to the top. It's too bad, really. Lots of people I disagree with here that I've come to have at least a cordial understanding with. I'll miss that. 

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

1. Volunteer mods.  I think there are several posters here who care about the forum and would be fair.

There are plenty of posters who would be fair. There are no posters who would be perceived as fair by the people who bear the brunt of their moderation.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Simply put: discuss the issue and not the poster.

I have been as guilty as anyone else of not doing this. But it's really the key to everything wrong here. If you discuss the subject and not the person you're discussing it with, everything will be OK.

Exactly what I 'whine' about everytime.   Is it that hard to stop?  It really should not be.  But unfotunately it really is how people debate these days.  This place is far better than most because the mods at least try to keep it civil.   But once you start assuming and injecting evil motives about the other party onto the discussion, it is hard to stop that snowball. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult.  I've had one person on ignore here since this forum opened, and I wound up removing him.  I just don't allow myself to get worked up over his posts, or what anyone posts for that matter.  If someone lies, trolls, insults, attacks, or in any way acts like a tool here, I just move on from their post.  If someone is making an obviously bad faith argument, I disregard it and move to the next post.  There is plenty of really intriguing conversation in this forum, it's just not that hard to disregard the bad actors in my opinion. 

As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of it could be remedied by just staying on topic, and not posting about the poster.  Stop trying to fix the people you think are idiots here.  Ignore them, disregard them, and stay on topic.  There is no value in trying to change the minds of those who you know do not see things the way you do.  Things are too polarized and people on the extremes aren't interested reconsidering their stances.  You aren't going to save the world by pointing out when someone is lying, or obfuscating, or twisting the facts on this forum.  Most people who participate here are plenty engaged and smart enough to know when this is happening, and we don't need board heroes to save us from it.  If those of you who truly want to discuss the topics just talked right past the obvious bad actors, they would run out of steam.  Stop engaging them, stop responding to them, stop feeling like everything needs a reply or a correction.

I've really enjoyed reading the thoughts of a number of the high value posters in this forum.  The aggregation of news that takes place here is second to none.  I do think it would be a loss if this forum goes away, and would greatly reduce the frequency in which I visit these forums... but I do understand.  It's a shame though, we are in some truly unique times politically, and it's been fantastic to come here and read the discussions that take place about these times.  I share KCitons view, I'm a level below many of the posters who's content I value when it comes to IQ.  That's why I really enjoy reading their content, they give me something to think about, an angle I didn't consider, a perspective I do not have.  It would be a loss if this went away, but I understand.  It's just a shame.  

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 2
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Whoa, Joe. I know you tried, and tried to high heaven to make this work, and it sounds like you've just had it. I honestly don't think, given the personalities that gravitate to this area of the board, that it'll change fundamentally no matter what you do. So I guess you're left with that. Which is too bad. 

What I read into this and know firsthand is that there are a bunch of other boards that the insults, snarkyness and just plain inability to converse is common practice.  With so few actual regulars in the PSF it becomes even more hostile and personal. Not sure that is what they are looking for here anymore.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

There are plenty of posters who would be fair. There are no posters who would be perceived as fair by the people who bear the brunt of their moderation.

I guess that gets into my point 2 (longer or permanent suspensions).  People who can’t respect the rules and/or cry about unfair treatment shouldn’t be allowed to post here.

It very well might be a lost cause regardless though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Politics right now is a toxic subject.  There’s no place on the internet where I’ve seen this discussed rationally, so why would it be here?  These groups of people are being told to despise the other groups, so of course this is the result.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think you're right. 

I'm just not sure it's possible. I've been asking people to do this for a while now and it's had zero effect as far as I can tell. 

People want to argue politics. If they block the people they argue with, they can’t argue.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, timschochet said:

95% lol. 

Honestly I don’t even think of it as liberal vs conservative anymore. Most of the time it’s Trump supporters  vs Trump critics. There are more Trump critics than supporters here but it’s not that huge a discrepancy. Say about 60-40. 

:jawdrop: 60-40???????

95 - 5 is way more closer

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure I can articulate this properly but it seems that this forum (and most modern political discourse) suffers from some degree of "I can't win on substance so I'm going to attack the process" vibe which leads to disingenuous postings which trigger nasty responses that lead to unproductive and unending back and forth squabbling.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

@Joe Bryant

I hope you take a deep breath and think about this. At the moment you’re negative, understandably so, because of all the whining you have to deal with and the vitriol and the sniping and it’s not worth your time to deal with it. 

But there’s a positive side too that you may not be considering. Even now, a lot of the discussion here is great, informative and illuminating. Conservatives and liberals argue and discuss things back and forth, and that’s unusual these days when everyone goes off into their own little corner. I think political forums like this one, open and welcoming to all sides, are necessary and healthy. Despite all the crap, I really believe that this forum provides a value to our society in a small way. 

What I’m trying to say is that you have achieved something special here. Something important. Something that I think you can be proud of- maybe not tonight but over time. 

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

And I have a selfish request- and I know I can’t be the only one here feeling this: @Joe Bryant you’ve had to deal now with 3 years of the Trump presidency and all of our reactions to it- so at least give us one more year, through the election. I’m too invested in this ongoing discussion to lose all of these people now I’ve been talking to, admiring, arguing with. We’ve got to see it through and find out how it all ends and gauge each other’s reactions through all of the amazing events that are going to occur over the next 12 months. 

So please give us that much and in exchange we will really try to get better. If it’s a lost cause then shut it down after next November. But allow us to finish our story. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

As others have said, I'd be pretty sad to see the PSF disappear.

The FBG forums have been a constant in my life from late high school to my early 30's, but if I'm being honest fantasy football has become less and less of a "passion" for me over those years. The thing that keeps me coming back is the sense of community that's been built over the years, but my interests (especially in the last few years) have skewed far more toward politics than pop culture, etc. I get exposure to political view points here that I never get in "real" life because of where I live and what my friend groups are and I really value that exposure.

Honestly, if the PSF went away I'd probably all but stop coming around. Hope you decide to keep the doors open, @Joe Bryant, but I understand it's your call to do what's best for you and your business.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

if people could just lay off of the stinky bait, all problems are solved.  it reminds me of a cartoon I can vaguely remember, where a sheepdog and a wolf (not sure if these were the characters but something similar) punch a time clock and then they start quarreling.  the 5 oclock bell rings and they stop fighting, punch out, say see you tomorrow, and come back the next day to do it all over again.  just stop responding to the 'trolls'.  its apparent we're no longer allowed to correct misinformation because its considered snarky and condescending.  but I come here for some pretty good analysis by people like SID, MT, HF, and many more.  so please, JUST STOP RESPONDING TO OBVIOUS STINKY BAIT.  

would it be possible that eligibility to post in the PSF has to be earned?  so that I could still read the posts by the smart people without the misinformation and talking points?  

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

There are plenty of posters who would be fair. There are no posters who would be perceived as fair by the people who bear the brunt of their moderation.

That's a good point, but would it be possible to have it effectively be an anonymous process? Ask for 'applications' to be a moderator or reach out to specific posters you'd trust and treat it like Fight Club? To be clear, I have no illusions that I'd be on that list -- I've only ever been given a short timeout years ago, but I feel like someone who has been banned in the past shouldn't be trusted as a moderator.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven’t read all the posts but I saw someone suggested volunteer mods which, of course, isn’t a great idea.  How about instead we take the self-policing idea and see if a couple of folks on opposite sides of the aisle want to help remind others on their side to act cool?  Just a thought and would hopefully show the mods that we want to keep a civil discussion.

 

  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

And I have a selfish request- and I know I can’t be the only one here feeling this: @Joe Bryant you’ve had to deal now with 3 years of the Trump presidency and all of our reactions to it- so at least give us one more year, through the election. I’m too invested in this ongoing discussion to lose all of these people now I’ve been talking to, admiring, arguing with. We’ve got to see it through and find out how it all ends and gauge each other’s reactions through all of the amazing events that are going to occur over the next 12 months. 

So please give us that much and in exchange we will really try to get better. If it’s a lost cause then shut it down after next November. But allow us to finish our story. 

Honestly man I don't think he cares what you're invested in.  The best way to keep this place open is not to beg and plead but start behaving and follow his rules.  I mean he's only said it about 100 times.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

14 hours ago, jomar said:

if people could just lay off of the stinky bait, all problems are solved.  it reminds me of a cartoon I can vaguely remember, where a sheepdog and a wolf (not sure if these were the characters but something similar) punch a time clock and then they start quarreling.  the 5 oclock bell rings and they stop fighting, punch out, say see you tomorrow, and come back the next day to do it all over again.  just stop responding to the 'trolls'.  its apparent we're no longer allowed to correct misinformation because its considered snarky and condescending.  but I come here for some pretty good analysis by people like SID, MT, HF, and many more.  so please, JUST STOP RESPONDING TO OBVIOUS STINKY BAIT.  

would it be possible that eligibility to post in the PSF has to be earned?  so that I could still read the posts by the smart people without the misinformation and talking points?  

This is exactly correct.  Stop responding to the trolls.  There are clearly a handful of poster that are looking to get a rise of people.  Ignore them and this whole place gets a lot better.  

People know who they are so not like it is hard to do it.  

Edited by Redwes25
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would be helpful for people to think of this place as a neighborhood bar and Joe and David as proprietors/bartenders. 
 

If you don’t like the bar owner, stop going.  If you get out of line, you leave and maybe they let you back in. If something they say or do is so important you have to have a conversation with them about how unacceptable it is, be prepared to not get to drink there anymore if you act inappropriately during the conversation and be prepared to tell them you’ll leave. 
 

If you like the bar, don’t start trouble with the other customers. That’s just jerk behavior. 
 

If you can’t take some good natured ribbing about anything, maybe don’t come drink at the bar.  If the bar is a “cesspool” or the owner lets the patrons be mean to you and everyone can say “okay, see you in an hour” maybe the issue is you and not the bar.  
 

Above all, when you’re at the bar, don’t be a jerk.  Nobody wants a group of jerks at the bar.  Argue, get mad, tell somebody off, whatever, but it’s happening in a bar. It’s not personal or, if it is, it’s rare and that person should be 86’d. 
 

At least that’s how I feel. 

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

 

This is exactly correct.  Stop responding to the trolls.  There are clearly a handful of poster that a trolls looking to get a rise of people.  Ignore them and this whole place gets a lot better.  

People know who they are so not like it is hard to do it.  

Also, if someone wants to talk to the crazy drunk in the corner, as long as he isn’t being a jerk to the poor guy, let him.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, timschochet said:

@Joe Bryant

I hope you take a deep breath and think about this. At the moment you’re negative, understandably so, because of all the whining you have to deal with and the vitriol and the sniping and it’s not worth your time to deal with it. 

But there’s a positive side too that you may not be considering. Even now, a lot of the discussion here is great, informative and illuminating. Conservatives and liberals argue and discuss things back and forth, and that’s unusual these days when everyone goes off into their own little corner. I think political forums like this one, open and welcoming to all sides, are necessary and healthy. Despite all the crap, I really believe that this forum provides a value to our society in a small way. 

What I’m trying to say is that you have achieved something special here. Something important. Something that I think you can be proud of- maybe not tonight but over time. 

This forum is far from open and welcoming to all sides.  Not when it’s 75-25, or 85-15, or 95-5.  The mob here bullies, or tries to. Only the strong stand up for their beliefs and aren’t fazed by the mob.  Wishfully both sides could learn a thing or two from the other side, but sadly the mission of this forum is to punish the minorty conservative voices.  You make it personal a lot of the time Tim.

Edited by JohnnyU
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Honestly man I don't think he cares what you're invested in.  The best way to keep this place open is not to beg and plead but start behaving and follow his rules.  I mean he's only said it about 100 times.

Agreed.  Plenty of us were invested in the yoga pants thread, and we had to say goodbye to that.  Things end.  Such is life. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This forum allows me to talk politics with knowledgeable folks on the other side and helps me understand where they are coming from.  Sure, certain trolls attack me for an opposing view but it is a public message board and I could care less.  There have been some positive exchanges in this thread so hopefully folks will change.

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

In my honest opinion, I think the FFA will die without the PSF.  Some will find this opinion crazy, I’m sure, but there are a lot of smart, knowledgeable, quality posters that will tire of the FFA if politics are banned everywhere.

Me and Squis were against the subforum in the first place because politics is inextricable from life and I thought that quarantining is the first before death. I also knew it would be the same posters, over and over ad nauseum, and that they'd get sick of each other.

It happened. :(

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I think it would be helpful for people to think of this place as a neighborhood bar and Joe and David as proprietors/bartenders. 
 

If you don’t like the bar owner, stop going.  If you get out of line, you leave and maybe they let you back in. If something they say or do is so important you have to have a conversation with them about how unacceptable it is, be prepared to not get to drink there anymore if you act inappropriately during the conversation and be prepared to tell them you’ll leave. 
 

If you like the bar, don’t start trouble with the other customers. That’s just jerk behavior. 
 

If you can’t take some good natured ribbing about anything, maybe don’t come drink at the bar.  If the bar is a “cesspool” or the owner lets the patrons be mean to you and everyone can say “okay, see you in an hour” maybe the issue is you and not the bar.  
 

Above all, when you’re at the bar, don’t be a jerk.  Nobody wants a group of jerks at the bar.  Argue, get mad, tell somebody off, whatever, but it’s happening in a bar. It’s not personal or, if it is, it’s rare and that person should be 86’d. 
 

At least that’s how I feel. 

Also the bar owner has every right to ban customers or even close down if he does not like the clientele.   I think I do understand as they are getting away from yoga pants, who is hottest and politics for a reason.  It is a business.  We will meet up in the FFA and talk about different things and possibly all be happier. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...