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Covid and School This Fall


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The decision on opening schools should be based in large part on community transmission, given that adequate testing is taking place (among other considerations like class size, school facilities, etc.).

Any region with a positive rate above 5% is asking for major trouble. 

Frankly the fact that GA is opening schools so quickly is appalling.

No mask mandate. Short shutdown. Re-open bars with impunity. Rising case counts. That's a joke in GA. And no mask mandate in the schools? Kidding?

On the other hand, don't paint NY and CT for example with the same broad brush of "how are schools even thinking of re-opening?" How? The people took it seriously, the governors took it seriously, the re-opening of the economy was phased, and left out super-spreader environments from re-opening. Mask usage is high, etc.

Priorities. So when some places can re-open schools a lot more safely than others, look at what was prioritized. If it was "my freedoms", chances are your area isn't able to re-open schools safely.

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I teach in WA state. Our district if going remote for 4.5 weeks at only three classes. We'll switch to the other half of the classes for 4.5 more weeks. That's 25% of the school year. The hope is the 9 weeks after that we can go to some form of a hybrid model where half the students are in class every other day.  Technology is currently being doled out to those in need. Not sure what it will look like in terms of attendance. A bit worried about the AP classes I teach. We'll see, said Gust

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On 8/9/2020 at 5:58 PM, Mrs. Rannous said:

Why not?  If they are just sitting at desks and teachers are rotating among rooms, that's not social development.  That's jail.  Younger kids need school partly because they can socialize and have free play at recess.  Sitting at a desk with a mask on just means they aren't at home.  The teachers can't really teach sitting at the front of the room and never moving.

 

They are face to face with other people (at those desks, at lunch, before and after school).  See their friends, make new ones.  ie social development.  Not to mention the infinitely better learning environment.

Invaluable imo.  Worth the risk.

Growing up on zoom and Xbox is a MUCH closer semblance to jail.

Edited by matuski
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19 minutes ago, matuski said:

They are face to face with other people (at those desks, at lunch, before and after school).  See their friends, make new ones.  ie social development.  Not to mention the infinitely better learning environment.

Invaluable imo.  Worth the risk.

Growing up on zoom and Xbox is a MUCH closer semblance to jail.

They're not face to face, they'll all have masks on.  Their desks are all 6+ feet apart and all facing the same direction.  There's no lunch, no free play, no before- and after-school congregating on school property.  And I doubt in-school instruction will be infinitely better when the teacher is dividing their efforts and attention between the handful of kids in the classroom and the rest of the kids online, which is where it seems most schools are landing.  The learning environment for all students will be worse in a hybrid plan than if they were all in-person or all online IMO.  

I'm sympathetic to the argument that kids need that kind of development but they're not going to get it in school this year.  As far as I can tell, trying to learn in this weird environment is more likely to cause anxiety and depression that produce any meaningful positive effects.  My kids get more social development with their friends outside of school than they would in school this fall. 

Meanwhile learning remotely means no mask, freedom to move around in a safe environment, can get up and go to the bathroom whenever they want, etc.  Will still see their friends after school / on weekends.  For my family, going to school would be an increased risk for a worse situation.  Keeping the kids home is a win-win until things are back to normal.  

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On 8/4/2020 at 4:16 PM, gianmarco said:

My son's HS is going full virtual.  It will be this for grades 5-12 in the district.

My daughter's elementary school is going 5 days/week with either AM or PM (we'll find out which we are soon, I supposed).  This is for K-4.  You can opt for full virtual as well.

We will be sending her.  I might send my son to her school too.

Decision made last night that completely reversed course.  All virtual learning for all grades for the first quarter including my daughter's preschool.  We will not enroll her in preschool as there's no point for her to do "virtual learning" at 4 years old.  They will be giving iPads for all the elementary school kids.  My son already has a laptop for HS from last year.  They will be taking attendance each day and I think there will be a combination of live plus recorded learning.  We start in 2 weeks.

This will be interesting. 

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On 7/19/2020 at 12:47 PM, El Floppo said:
On 7/19/2020 at 11:55 AM, acarey50 said:

As encouraging as that German study was that we posted on Monday/Tuesday, and the results of an Irish study that I read about (though the number of cases tracked was only 3), this large scale study out of South Korea is a little more sobering on the transmission of the virus through kids. Essentially kids 10 and younger spread at about half the rate of adults, but kids aged 10-19 spread it at the same rate as adults, actually at a slightly higher rate than adults (though the study notes some caveats about this) 

Article pasted for those not wanting to click through to it:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others.

A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. And those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do.

The findings suggest that as schools reopen, communities will see clusters of infection take root that include children of all ages, several experts cautioned.

“I fear that there has been this sense that kids just won’t get infected or don’t get infected in the same way as adults and that, therefore, they’re almost like a bubbled population,” said Michael Osterholm, an infectious diseases expert at the University of Minnesota.

“There will be transmission,” Dr. Osterholm said. “What we have to do is accept that now and include that in our plans.”

Several studies from Europe and Asia have suggested that young children are less likely to get infected and to spread the virus. But most of those studies were small and flawed, said Dr. Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.

The new study “is very carefully done, it’s systematic and looks at a very large population,” Dr. Jha said. “It’s one of the best studies we’ve had to date on this issue.”

Other experts also praised the scale and rigor of the analysis. South Korean researchers identified 5,706 people who were the first to report Covid-19 symptoms in their households between Jan. 20 and March 27, when schools were closed, and then traced the 59,073 contacts of these “index cases.” They tested all of the household contacts of each patient, regardless of symptoms, but only tested symptomatic contacts outside the household.

The first person in a household to develop symptoms is not necessarily the first to have been infected, and the researchers acknowledged this limitation. Children are also less likely than adults to show symptoms, so the study may have underestimated the number of children who set off the chain of transmission within their households.

Still, experts said the approach was reasonable. “It is also from a place with great contact tracing, done at the point interventions were being put in place,” said Bill Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

Children under 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others, consistent with other studies. That may be because children generally exhale less air — and therefore less virus-laden air — or because they exhale that air closer to the ground, making it less likely that adults would breathe it in.

Even so, the number of new infections seeded by children may rise when schools reopen, the study authors cautioned. “Young children may show higher attack rates when the school closure ends, contributing to community transmission of Covid-19,” they wrote. Other studies have also suggested that the large number of contacts for schoolchildren, who interact with dozens of others for a good part of the day, may cancel out their smaller risk of infecting others.

The researchers traced the contacts only of children who felt ill, so it’s still unclear how efficiently asymptomatic children spread the virus, said Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

“I think it was always going to be the case that symptomatic children are infectious,” she said. “The questions about the role of children are more around whether children who don’t have symptoms are infectious.”

Dr. Rivers was a member of a scientific panel that on Wednesday recommended reopening schools wherever possible for disabled children and for those in elementary schools, because those groups have the most trouble learning online. She said the new study does not alter that recommendation.

[Like the Science Times page on Facebook. | Sign up for the Science Times newsletter.]

The study is more worrisome for children in middle and high school. This group was even more likely to infect others than adults were, the study found. But some experts said that finding may be a fluke or may stem from the children’s behaviors.

These older children are frequently as big as adults, and yet may have some of the same unhygienic habits as young children do. They may also have been more likely than the younger children to socialize with their peers within the high-rise complexes in South Korea.

“We can speculate all day about this, but we just don’t know,” Dr. Osterholm said. “The bottom line message is: There’s going to be transmission.”

He and other experts said schools will need to prepare for infections to pop up. Apart from implementing physical distancing, hand hygiene and masks, schools should also decide when and how to test students and staff — including, for example, bus drivers — when and how long to require people to quarantine, and when to decide to close and reopen schools.

But they face a monumental challenge because the evidence on transmission within schools has been far from conclusive so far, experts said. Some countries like Denmark and Finland have successfully reopened schools, but others, like China, Israel and South Korea, have had to close them down again.

“People, depending on their ideology on school opening, are choosing which evidence to present — and that needs to be avoided,” said Jeffrey Shaman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health in New York.

Although the new study does not offer definitive answers, he said, it does indicate that schools can increase virus levels within a community.

“So long as children are not just a complete dead end — incapable of passing the virus on, which does not seem to be the case — putting them together in schools, having them mix with teachers and other students will provide additional opportunities for the virus to move from person to person,” he said.

At the same time, Dr. Shaman said, it’s important for children not to miss out on critical years in education and socialization, and school districts have the unenviable task of choosing between those options: “It’s hard trying to find the right balance.”

 

 

Was coming in to post the same.

Good thread on this study and how it was misleading. 

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Just now, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

And I doubt in-school instruction will be infinitely better when the teacher is dividing their efforts and attention between the handful of kids in the classroom and the rest of the kids online, which is where it seems most schools are landing.  The learning environment for all students will be worse in a hybrid plan than if they were all in-person or all online IMO.  

Absolutely positively no question IMO

And there's no question parents will be complaining (shocker!) what a cluster it'll be.

 

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18 minutes ago, Craig_MiamiFL said:

Absolutely positively no question IMO

And there's no question parents will be complaining (shocker!) what a cluster it'll be.

 

They should implement rule #1: no whining. Teachers and administrators are doing their best.

I'm glad the district is trying for in-person options while they can. Fits and starts will be inevitable. It's going to look a lot more like MLB then the NBA.

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1 hour ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

They're not face to face, they'll all have masks on.  Their desks are all 6+ feet apart and all facing the same direction.  There's no lunch, no free play, no before- and after-school congregating on school property.  And I doubt in-school instruction will be infinitely better when the teacher is dividing their efforts and attention between the handful of kids in the classroom and the rest of the kids online, which is where it seems most schools are landing.  T

So all these years in the OR wearing masks haven't counted as face to face interaction?  Come on now.  I mean this is news to me and all the other people I've been... face to face with.

My kids have lunch, my kids will be with friends before and after school... perhaps this isn't the case elsewhere, but I'm glad it is the case here.

I can't imagine online zoom meetings being better than in person for teaching and learning.  It wasn't for them in the Spring, it hasn't been for me in the last several months.  But maybe that is personal preference.

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2 minutes ago, matuski said:

So all these years in the OR wearing masks haven't counted as face to face interaction?  Come on now.

So adults wearing masks in an operating room is analogous to kids learning social development while sitting in rows with masks on?  Come on now.  

3 minutes ago, matuski said:

My kids have lunch, my kids will be with friends before and after school... perhaps this isn't the case elsewhere, but I'm glad it is the case here.

Our district has no lunch (they're doing half days in-person).  No other local districts I'm aware of are doing traditional lunches where kids congregate and socialize - they'll be eating at their desks.  My kids will be with friends after school, too - seeing friends is not really a compelling reason to send your kids to school, they're allowed to socialize outside of school.  :shrug: 

5 minutes ago, matuski said:

I can't imagine online zoom meetings being better than in person for teaching and learning.  It wasn't for them in the Spring, it hasn't been for me in the last several months.

Online teaching isn't better than in person.  But it is better than hybrid situations where some of the students are online and some are in person, which is what pretty much every school near me is going with.  If your schools are reopening fully then most of what I've said won't apply.  But if your town allows families to opt for online instruction , then your kid will be sitting in a classroom but not getting the full benefit of being there because the teacher has to tailor their instruction to half the class that is remote.  And of course the kids at home are getting a worse deal because the teacher isn't fully committed to providing a remote educational experience.  It sucks both ways. 

Of course, online instruction is expected to improve over the spring, since that was all cobbled together with no notice.  Remains to be seen how effectively schools have used this time, however.

Like I said, maybe your school is reopening fully with few changes from pre-COVID life, in which case my comments don't really apply.  If not, I don't think people fully appreciate the impact of a lot of the changes that are being implemented.  At least from the plans I've seen around here, being in school is not going to provide the better education and the mental health benefits for kids people are touting.  It's gonna suck. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

So adults wearing masks in an operating room is analogous to kids learning social development while sitting in rows with masks on?  Come on now.  

Yes, of course.. that is what I do in the OR.  Teach and learn.  Again, would be news to everyone I interact with face to face, that it didn't count because masks or which direction we were facing.  Come on now.

Our district has no lunch (they're doing half days in-person).  No other local districts I'm aware of are doing traditional lunches where kids congregate and socialize - they'll be eating at their desks.  My kids will be with friends after school, too - seeing friends is not really a compelling reason to send your kids to school, they're allowed to socialize outside of school.  :shrug: 

Our kids will have lunch - they are working out exactly how (changed a couple times), they will walk to and from school with friends.. and seeing friends/making new ones is THE compelling reason for me.  They can learn algebra and spanish from a book.

Online teaching isn't better than in person.  But it is better than hybrid situations where some of the students are online and some are in person, which is what pretty much every school near me is going with.  If your schools are reopening fully then most of what I've said won't apply.  But if your town allows families to opt for online instruction , then your kid will be sitting in a classroom but not getting the full benefit of being there because the teacher has to tailor their instruction to half the class that is remote.  And of course the kids at home are getting a worse deal because the teacher isn't fully committed to providing a remote educational experience.  It sucks both ways. 

Of course, online instruction is expected to improve over the spring, since that was all cobbled together with no notice.  Remains to be seen how effectively schools have used this time, however.

Like I said, maybe your school is reopening fully with few changes from pre-COVID life, in which case my comments don't really apply.  If not, I don't think people fully appreciate the impact of a lot of the changes that are being implemented.  At least from the plans I've seen around here, being in school is not going to provide the better education and the mental health benefits for kids people are touting.  It's gonna suck. 

No doubt there will be struggles.  If you have that expectation, it can't suck.  You expect it, adapt, go forward.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, matuski said:

My kids have lunch, my kids will be with friends before and after school... perhaps this isn't the case elsewhere, but I'm glad it is the case here.

It's not. In fact, so far as I know ... it's hardly the case anywhere.

 

Quote

I can't imagine online zoom meetings being better than in person for teaching and learning.  It wasn't for them in the Spring, it hasn't been for me in the last several months.  But maybe that is personal preference.

The thing is ... in-person learning the way it was done pre-COVID is not available in a lot of (most?) places. And it's not going to be available anytime soon, I'd wager.

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17 minutes ago, Doug B said:

It's not. In fact, so far as I know ... it's hardly the case anywhere.

 

 

The thing is ... in-person learning the way it was done pre-COVID is not available in a lot of (most?) places. And it's not going to be available anytime soon, I'd wager.

I'll have to look into the lunch thing again, but as of Monday, lunch was occuring outside class to my understanding.  If kids aren't getting to socialize before and after in most places (was never really on campus in the first place here), I think that is a shame.  Like I said.. my kids can learn with books, they can't learn life through zoom and xbox.

Pre/post covid wasnt the context of those comments.  Right now, as is, face to face learning >>> zoom.  Might as well just have them read the textbooks if it is going to be on zoom... that format seems to be limited to the lowest common denominator.  

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Our kids school just announced they are accelerating plans for in-person.  Will pull in from end of September to September 9th.

2 weeks remote, then one day of scheduled in person briefings, then we all get covid.

Basically.

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9 hours ago, The Gator said:

update:

In the six days that Cherokee County schools have been in session, the north Georgia district has had to direct 826 students to quarantine due to exposure to COVID-19, along with 42 teachers.

 

:oldunsure:

They closed one of the High Schools for the next 2.5 weeks.

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2 hours ago, matuski said:

Yes, of course.. that is what I do in the OR.  Teach and learn.  Again, would be news to everyone I interact with face to face, that it didn't count because masks or which direction we were facing.  Come on now.

I take it that you are teaching surgical techniques and skills.  Did you start those lessons in the OR?  If noit, this statement in no way applies to classroom learning with masks on.

For the sake of the patients, I sure hope surgical skills are taught someplace other than the OR before moving to the lab section of instruction.

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Tulsa area schools are a #### show!   2 of the 3 largest school districts are not starting due to rising numbers.  The other one is opening up as scheduled.  The school districts actually touch each other.   I guess the magical streets that divide the school districts keep the virus from spreading.

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46 minutes ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

I take it that you are teaching surgical techniques and skills.  Did you start those lessons in the OR?  If noit, this statement in no way applies to classroom learning with masks on.

For the sake of the patients, I sure hope surgical skills are taught someplace other than the OR before moving to the lab section of instruction.

It's such an absurd analogy, I started to respond and decided not to bother.  

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1 hour ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

I take it that you are teaching surgical techniques and skills.  Did you start those lessons in the OR?  If noit, this statement in no way applies to classroom learning with masks on.

For the sake of the patients, I sure hope surgical skills are taught someplace other than the OR before moving to the lab section of instruction.

Yes, most often.  I avoid doctors offices like the plague.

Or, perhaps a cadaver lab.... also usually (always?  cant remember exactly) wearing masks.

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Confirmed our kids will have "normal" lunches, spaced out at 3 ft diagonals at the tables (each side 6 feet apart, staggered to opposite side of table).  No masks (distancing!).

If they were going to be forced to eat in the classroom, that would be effed up.  Walk to cafeteria, get your tray of food, walk back to classrooom, eat, walk back to cafeteria to empty tray?

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39 minutes ago, matuski said:

If they were going to be forced to eat in the classroom, that would be effed up.  Walk to cafeteria, get your tray of food, walk back to classrooom, eat, walk back to cafeteria to empty tray?

What I think my son’s school is doing is bringing food to the classrooms from the cafeteria. I don’t know if they’re having typical school hot meals or if they’re going to be doing what they call “bagged lunch” (sandwich, fruit, etc.). Whatever they’re serving, it’s projected to create a lot of garbage — they went over the post-classroom-lunch garbage protocols in detail during the parents’ Zoom orientation.

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5 hours ago, Craig_MiamiFL said:

Absolutely positively no question IMO

And there's no question parents will be complaining (shocker!) what a cluster it'll be.

 

In some districts, the plan is to use more teachers (believe it or not) so that one teacher can teach in person while the partner teacher teaches the exact same thing at the same pace to the online segment.  No idea if it will work but at least its a better thought than splitting everything up and failing like you guys say. 

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33 minutes ago, matuski said:

Confirmed our kids will have "normal" lunches, spaced out at 3 ft diagonals at the tables (each side 6 feet apart, staggered to opposite side of table).  No masks (distancing!).

If they were going to be forced to eat in the classroom, that would be effed up.  Walk to cafeteria, get your tray of food, walk back to classrooom, eat, walk back to cafeteria to empty tray?

What I have seen taking place so far in our area is that, because of the socialization issues like you mention AND because a lot of teachers used to take their lunch when their kids are out of the classroom, in the lunch room, the schools are rotating:

One week, you go to the lunch room and you are spaced out and you don't have a mask on when eating, of course. (This is EXTREMELY difficult for ADULTS to carry out effectively...will be interested to see how children do). The next week, you are in the classroom and the lunches are delivered to the room by staff (unless you bring your own lunch).

The rotation allows spacing in the lunchroom AND the socialization people are mentioning.  The kids in the classroom takes away form the lunchroom being so filled. Sucks for teachers because they don't basically get a lunch for one week.   

In regards to zoom meetings-It didn't work well in the spring, in some part, because it was an 11th hour reprieve measure tossed together in a scramble.  Nothing works as good or efficient on the first run vs. when its been planned better.  With that being said, no amount of preparation can account for the barriers in some parts of the country where the broadband/internet capability is not up to par and obtainable for all children in the learning environment. 

It is a combo of things, but online learning, in and of itself, isn't inherently inferior. After all, higher education (university level) has been taught for 20+ years now so, you literally have people who are finishing their careers, coming off degrees learned in an online environment. 

 

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In the same conversation but a little off the recent talks-

Another issue with masks is that IF you wear them in a classroom, you create a learning barrier, especially to children who are receiving therapy from speech and language pathologists (speech therapy) which is vastly important in learning. Children learn as much as what they see (visual learning) as they do audibly and you might be surprised to learn how many children, without being aware (or their parents being aware), rely on reading lips and seeing how sounds are made in order to learn and mimic. 

So...although you would ideally want everyone wearing masks to protect one another, it's not helpful in many ways. So, it may be that online/distance learning has other merits BUT it also hurts the ability to reopen the economy and let parents go back to work. These things are so intertwined, they cannot possibly be addressed as standalone items to be addressed. 

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On 8/10/2020 at 6:53 PM, xulf said:

I don't know what you were expecting. 

I would be shocked if they don't implement fun activities throughout the day to break it up.  You don't have to be touching each other to have social interactions.

I'm expecting lots of class time (and lunch?) outdoors. I am curious about what they will do for recess though. None of my contacts have any Intel, so it leaves me skeptical they will even have it but as long as sports are on I think that'll be enough physical social activity. 

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11 hours ago, matuski said:

It was your definition.

I agreed that it was absurd.  :hifive:

:lmao: 

 

matuski: in-person instruction is infinitely more effective than virtual

also matuski: they don’t even need teachers, they can learn from a book

i respect you enough to assume you're just trolling at this point.  we get it, you want to send your kids to school.  we all do.  it's fine to also recognize that it's not going to be anything like pre-COVID school for a while (in most places, perhaps your school is in a minority that is just going back to normal).  we all want our kids back in school, for all the same well-intentioned reasons.  the issue is, the "school" we want to send our kids back to is not what is being offered this fall.  in the interim there's some weird substitute that has at least as many drawbacks as supposed advantages.  it's silly not to acknowledge that. 

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So now here in NJ, the governor is expected to announce today that schools will be allowed to start the year all-virtual (up until now, there was a state requirement that all schools offer some form of in-person instruction when the year starts).  So the weird hybrid plans we just spent weeks hashing out are now likely to get tossed in a lot of districts.  In my town we literally just had a meeting last night to discuss the rollout of the hybrid schedule and I wouldn't be surprised to find out we just go all-online to start the year now that it's allowed.  Shame so much time was wasted.  

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fwiw... in NYC public schools lunch will be a "working lunch" in the class room. the day is going to be shorter as a result. The kids aren't leaving their classrooms  all day other than to go to the bathroom. so no masks in their little classrooms while eating lunch instead. makes perfect sense. I guess this is to minimize hallway traffic. just don't understand whey they don't set up some tents outside and get this kids some fresh air, if at least while needing to take their masks off.

and again- NYC is using the cohort system (school dependent on how many). Our daughter's elementary school will be one regular full day per week, and one rotated day- likely every other week. Our principal took heat from the NY Post, and ultimately from the chancellor, because he made this clear to parents early on rather than just letting the "idea" of cohorts not be figured out in real terms (something Carranza, the chancellor, does with regularity- makes public statements to the media, which the principals then have to explain to the parent-body without having any answers or options about HOW to make these policy moves work).

 

wife and kids met some friends at the local pool yesterday- other mom is a NYC public school 4th grade teacher (who worked her ### off in the spring with all live teaching and rapid response to kids and parents). teacher mom, like my wife, is convinced that all of this will be for naught- that the hybrid plan won't work, and/or the city won't be able to even meet the requirements before hand to allow in-school at all, and that NYC will end up going 100% remote either after a cluster-#### opening, or before school even starts.

eta: NYC seems to have made all school start times at 8:30am (typically staggered across a wide range to avoid overloading transit system). another horrible idea, which puts ALL kids either in school buses or public transportation DURING rush-hour. 

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1 minute ago, El Floppo said:

teacher mom, like my wife, is convinced that all of this will be for naught- that the hybrid plan won't work, and/or the city won't be able to even meet the requirements before hand to allow in-school at all, and that NYC will end up going 100% remote either after a cluster-#### opening, or before school even starts.

this is what we’re expecting in NJ as well. I’ve said this before but it’s frustrating that we couldn’t have spent the last four months planning the best possible remote experience for everyone, and instead wasted months on hybrid plans that are crappy at best and that seem increasingly likely to not even be implemented after all. 

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2 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

fwiw... in NYC public schools lunch will be a "working lunch" in the class room. the day is going to be shorter as a result. The kids aren't leaving their classrooms  all day other than to go to the bathroom. so no masks in their little classrooms while eating lunch instead. makes perfect sense. I guess this is to minimize hallway traffic. just don't understand whey they don't set up some tents outside and get this kids some fresh air, if at least while needing to take their masks off.

and again- NYC is using the cohort system (school dependent on how many). Our daughter's elementary school will be one regular full day per week, and one rotated day- likely every other week. Our principal took heat from the NY Post, and ultimately from the chancellor, because he made this clear to parents early on rather than just letting the "idea" of cohorts not be figured out in real terms (something Carranza, the chancellor, does with regularity- makes public statements to the media, which the principals then have to explain to the parent-body without having any answers or options about HOW to make these policy moves work).

 

wife and kids met some friends at the local pool yesterday- other mom is a NYC public school 4th grade teacher (who worked her ### off in the spring with all live teaching and rapid response to kids and parents). teacher mom, like my wife, is convinced that all of this will be for naught- that the hybrid plan won't work, and/or the city won't be able to even meet the requirements before hand to allow in-school at all, and that NYC will end up going 100% remote either after a cluster-#### opening, or before school even starts.

I have no idea how the NYC schools are going to pull any of this off.  The only people on campus are DOE employees (i.e the principals, building supervisors, etc).  Our mom's group (runs the PTA, on CEC, running for borough President) all think this is going 100% virtual fairly quickly.

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Just now, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

this is what we’re expecting in NJ as well. I’ve said this before but it’s frustrating that we couldn’t have spent the last four months planning the best possible remote experience for everyone, and instead wasted months on hybrid plans that are crappy at best and that seem increasingly likely to not even be implemented after all. 

Considering how minimal inschool actually will be here (5-7 days per month), I keep assuming the schools have been focusing on the virtual side of things to improve on the Spring. 

but we all know what assuming means... especially with a nightmarish beurocrazy like the NYC DOE. 

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and fwiw- most of the principals I've been hearing about here in NYC took no time off this summer... working, acting, reacting, to the daily roller-coaster that Covid has thrown at us. of course, my son's principal took a month off- most of July- when all of this #### needed addressing. Thanks Katie!

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I think the last page and "discussion" is a good reminder that it's really unwise to use an individual's anecdotal experience to judge what should be going on all over the country.  It's wise to remember that every county could be different...maybe even schools within the county.

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43 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

and fwiw- most of the principals I've been hearing about here in NYC took no time off this summer... working, acting, reacting, to the daily roller-coaster that Covid has thrown at us. of course, my son's principal took a month off- most of July- when all of this #### needed addressing. Thanks Katie!

Yeah, I know the administrators (there are a lot of them) in my district have worked twice as much since March than they normally would have. All spring my principal said he was at school like 12 hours a day. He ended up stepping down as principal and taking a teaching role at the end of the school year saying that it was simply too much for him (his wife also has cancer) and he can't spend the whole next year living like that. 

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2 hours ago, The Commish said:

I think the last page and "discussion" is a good reminder that it's really unwise to use an individual's anecdotal experience to judge what should be going on all over the country.  It's wise to remember that every county could be different...maybe even schools within the county.

This cannot be emphasized enough. In some environments it's a horrible idea to return in any capacity right now. In some the risk is low. And in others it depends. If our kids were in the local public school and they were doing in-person (they're not) then considering sending them back never would have entered our minds. We do private though. The class sizes are small. As I mentioned above, they will be outside at least some of the time. We know a lot of the parents and from what we've seen this summer there have been no mask issues with their kids. The number of cases in our county have been trending well over the last few weeks and while the raw # of cases are 2nd highest in the state (13,734) on a relative basis we're aligned with most of the state at about 1% of our population. If the school decides to pull the plug on in-person between now and the start then I get it, but barring new information sending them back passes our risk assessment. 

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OC, CA will have to be off the state watchlist by the 17th with 14 consecutive days following for the school year to start with kids on campus 8/31.  I don't actually expect that to happen based on OC's track record so far.  I do expect full school from home at least initially.

The district is also offering the option for you to enroll your kid(s) in school from home for the year, regardless of what the school board decides. Today is the deadline to enroll.  They will possibly re-eval in Dec for 2nd semester but there is no guarantee that there will be space for anyone that wants to go back to in person if they opt for distance learning.

If you don't opt out of in-person learning today, you are leaving it to the school dist to decide between full in person or a hybrid model (2 hours on campus per day per kid).

I understand that either full or hybrid will require kids to wear masks at all times (minus eating), distancing, etc.  The schools have been installing partitions, directions for 1 way foot traffic, and other means to keep distancing, even for full in person learning.  If any kid has an issue with wearing masks (either them or their parents are against it), they will be moved to the distance learning program.

Kid says she will be ok with whatever her Mom and I decide.  She also wants to go out for school government and ASB so I know she wants to be back at school too.  I was adamant about keeping her home with the reports of the schools opening and closing around the country.  But based on the masks and protocols being put in place, I have softened that stance.  My preference now would be the hybrid model although a full in school program may be ok.  I am hoping they actually follow through with the protocols they put in place.

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30 minutes ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

Will that even be possible this year?

I don't know.  But if its a small group and they distance I am not sure why they couldn't. Or if things improve enough to allow it....

She actually likes school and learning so I hate to lose that.  Is the risk worth it?  In general, no, but it does look like the district will be taking every precaution to mitigate the risk.  We are lucky that she is in a district that has the means to take the precautions.

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8 hours ago, El Floppo said:

Considering how minimal inschool actually will be here (5-7 days per month), I keep assuming the schools have been focusing on the virtual side of things to improve on the Spring. 

but we all know what assuming means... especially with a nightmarish beurocrazy like the NYC DOE. 

I have to assume the fall online experience will be much better than the spring when it was ended suddenly

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10 minutes ago, belljr said:

I have to assume the fall online experience will be much better than the spring when it was ended suddenly

If the plan all along was to remain all-online in the fall, that would be a reasonable assumption.  If the school spent the summer working out hybrid plans where teachers would simultaneously provide online and in-person instruction, there’s a decent chance it’ll be as bad or worse. 

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1 hour ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

If the plan all along was to remain all-online in the fall, that would be a reasonable assumption.  If the school spent the summer working out hybrid plans where teachers would simultaneously provide online and in-person instruction, there’s a decent chance it’ll be as bad or worse. 

We are here now.  It is and it will be (worse).

1. Me:  "Okay, so maybe I could just run a Zoom meeting from my desk with the kids in the room and the kids at home, so we can still all see each other and discuss stuff." 

2. Feedback from all the mics/speakers in the room makes that impossible.

3. Okay, so all the in-person kids mute their mics/speakers.  No discussion, but every kid can then hear at least me.

4.  But when a kid at home asks a question, the amplified speakers (so that kids in class can hear the kids at home) feed that sound back through the mic on my computer, causing massive feedback.

5. Okay, so tell kids at home that if they want to ask a question, type a "?" in the chat, then I'll mute my mic so that they can talk.  Likewise, if a kid in class has a question, they raise their hand and I'll mute my speakers (otherwise, again, feedback).  It's a totally BS system and allows for no discussion among students at all, but at least allows for some form of back-and-forth communication to flow on some level, even if it's totally through me.

6. Spend a ton of time testing and trying to figure out these dynamics, THEN the tech folks say, "Oh yeah, don't run Zoom meetings with your in-person students participating.  You'll melt our bandwidth."  HFS, what in the #### do you want me to do?????

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