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timschochet’s political thoughts and commentary- back in here until the election is done (2 Viewers)

Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Women who vote!  At least some of them.  As in those that helped Trump in 2016 that abandoned the GOP in 2018.
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I'm pretty sure no woman changed their vote last night because Pence interrupted the moderator.  If that's your deciding factor then you are totally unreasonable in the first place.  It's just another lib talking point to distract from the issues.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Who care what women like or hate?  He treated the moderator the same way all politicians treat all moderators.  You just sent a female and pounce on the opportunity to scream sexism.  Still trying to figure out what was racist last night?  Or is any criticism of Kamala now racist because she's black?
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Obviously we disagree on this and many other issues. The positive thing for me is that society is changing, to the point where in a few years you’ll come to share my perceptions on this issue, just as many conservatives now have come to accept gay marriage. Civility on issues of sexism and racism, a societal acceptance of political correctness is becoming the norm no matter how much you and others fight against it. I think that’s a very good thing. 

 
timschochet said:
Obviously we disagree on this and many other issues. The positive thing for me is that society is changing, to the point where in a few years you’ll come to share my perceptions on this issue, just as many conservatives now have come to accept gay marriage. Civility on issues of sexism and racism, a societal acceptance of political correctness is becoming the norm no matter how much you and others fight against it. I think that’s a very good thing. 
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What am I supposed to come around to?  It's okay for Pence to interrupt a male moderator but not a female moderator?

 
timschochet said:
Obviously we disagree on this and many other issues. The positive thing for me is that society is changing, to the point where in a few years you’ll come to share my perceptions on this issue, just as many conservatives now have come to accept gay marriage. Civility on issues of sexism and racism, a societal acceptance of political correctness is becoming the norm no matter how much you and others fight against it. I think that’s a very good thing. 
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Awesome job ducking his questions. Mike Pence would be proud. 

 
I want this election to be over already. Some of Trump’s ideas are legitimate. But he’s not competent enough to make them. We need to move on as a society and have a real debate about issues. Times a wasting. 
 

For instance, Mike Pence was absolutely right that the Green New Deal would be an economic disaster for us. So would either limiting or ending fracking. Yet we can’t continue on our current path either. Biden has avoided talking about this and Trump’s statements are nonsense. We need to tackle climate change. How are we going to do it? 

 
Ghost Rider said:
“ Or is any criticism of Kamala now racist because she's black?”
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Do you honestly think I believe that? Have I given you that impression? 
There’s a lot I don’t love about Kamala Harris and a lot I really like about her. I’ve written about her extensively in this forum. 

 
I want you to acknowledge that Pence and guys like him have a different tone when they have to confront strong women. They are more dismissive, more condescending. 

 
timschochet said:
I want you to acknowledge that Pence and guys like him have a different tone when they have to confront strong women. They are more dismissive, more condescending. 
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No.  All these politicians are condescending towards any moderator.  And frankly, each other too.  It's not isolated to Pence and the woman from last night.  Hell, Harris was more condescending last night than Pence.

 
@Ramblin Wreck you and I are both opposed to packing the Supreme Court. Yet I’m not sure what your objection to it is. I know what mine is; I hate doing it away with long held norms and I think that packing the court makes the whole process a joke, and harms the idea of an independent third branch of government. 

But if that is your objection as well, why aren’t you equally as angry at what McConnell is doing here? To me there is no difference: he is using the rules as no one has used them before to achieve a political outcome favorable to his side. It’s the same awful behavior. You wrote in another thread that the issue of court packing would force you to vote for Trump, but that makes no sense if Trump is contributing to the exact same behavior. 

 
timschochet said:
@Ramblin Wreck you and I are both opposed to packing the Supreme Court. Yet I’m not sure what your objection to it is. I know what mine is; I hate doing it away with long held norms and I think that packing the court makes the whole process a joke, and harms the idea of an independent third branch of government. 

But if that is your objection as well, why aren’t you equally as angry at what McConnell is doing here? To me there is no difference: he is using the rules as no one has used them before to achieve a political outcome favorable to his side. It’s the same awful behavior. You wrote in another thread that the issue of court packing would force you to vote for Trump, but that makes no sense if Trump is contributing to the exact same behavior. 
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Im not voting for Trump.  But pushing forward his choice to replace RBG isn't even in the same stratosphere as "I am going to be a big baby because the court is now stacked against me so I'm changing".   I'll vote for Trump if it means stopping that and I'm in a swing state too.

A simple public "no we will never stack the SCOTUS" is all I need to hear.  Neither Biden nor Harris will say it.

 
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Ghost Rider said:
Yes and yes. 
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That’s sad. But let me correct you: 

I like that Kamala is a strong, smart person and I think she has good intentions. I also think she is quite a bit dishonest and that really bothers me. That debate attack against Biden “I was that little girl” was total crap. So was believing, without evidence, that Biden abused one of his volunteers. Going back a few years, her attacks against rival Loretta Sanchez (who I’ve personally met and like very much) were awful. 
At times she uses race as a cudgel, and that bothers me as well. 
But there is much more that I like about her than dislike. On the whole I think she’ll be a very good President in years to come. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Im not voting for Trump.  But pushing forward his choice to replace RBG isn't even in the same stratosphere as "I am going to be a big baby because the court is now stacked against me so I'm changing".   I'll vote for Trump if it means stopping that and I'm in a swing state too.

A simple public "no we will never stack the SCOTUS" is all I need to hear.  Neither Biden nor Harris will say it.
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Again, that doesn’t make sense because it’s the exact same stratosphere. They’re going with this pick because they have the power to do so. If Biden packs the court it will be because he has the power to do so. What difference? I see none. 

 
timschochet said:
That’s sad. But let me correct you: 

I like that Kamala is a strong, smart person and I think she has good intentions. I also think she is quite a bit dishonest and that really bothers me. That debate attack against Biden “I was that little girl” was total crap. So was believing, without evidence, that Biden abused one of his volunteers. Going back a few years, her attacks against rival Loretta Sanchez (who I’ve personally met and like very much) were awful. 
At times she uses race as a cudgel, and that bothers me as well. 
But there is much more that I like about her than dislike. On the whole I think she’ll be a very good President in years to come. 
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All of that is fine, but that doesn’t really address what I see as the core issue here, which is your knee jerk reaction in regards to criticism of females and/or POC. Do sexism and racism still exist? Of course, and it sucks. But screaming sexism or racism is something you seem to do far too often. Just my two cents. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
All of that is fine, but that doesn’t really address what I see as the core issue here, which is your knee jerk reaction in regards to criticism of females and/or POC. Do sexism and racism still exist? Of course, and it sucks. But screaming sexism or racism is something you seem to do far too often. Just my two cents. 
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I don’t think I do it enough. 

 
timschochet said:
Again, that doesn’t make sense because it’s the exact same stratosphere. They’re going with this pick because they have the power to do so. If Biden packs the court it will be because he has the power to do so. What difference? I see none. 
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Okay then we are done here

 
gianmarco said:
So what would make it sexist?

If it was found that men interrupted women more than they interrupt other men, would that make it sexist?
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Depends. I mean the George Washington U study that gets quoted so much and showed men interrupt women 33% more than they interrupt other men makes it seem like that is a no-brainer conclusion, if you read only the blurbs citing that part of it. But that same study showed that women interrupt other women on average even more than men did. So is it sexism or a conversation dynamic based on receptive behaviors?

I feel it is important to point out that I don't deny the existence of sexism in conversation. I have seen it and know it exists. There are absolutely men that have a complete lack of respect for women based on their sex. In the workplace, in social settings, school board meetings, etc. 

I just don't think it is as common as perceived. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Depends. I mean the George Washington U study that gets quoted so much and showed men interrupt women 33% more than they interrupt other men makes it seem like that is a no-brainer conclusion, if you read only the blurbs citing that part of it. But that same study showed that women interrupt other women on average even more than men did. So is it sexism or a conversation dynamic based on receptive behaviors?

I feel it is important to point out that I don't deny the existence of sexism in conversation. I have seen it and know it exists. There are absolutely men that have a complete lack of respect for women based on their sex. In the workplace, in social settings, school board meetings, etc. 

I just don't think it is as common as perceived. 
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Perhaps.  Or perhaps it is.  I would hope you'd agree that women are going to be more aware and sensitive to it than you or I, right? 

FWIW, it's not just the GW study.  Here is another example

So, as you said, just because women complain about it doesn't make it sexist.  But it also doesn't mean it isn't.  And perhaps we should be open to the idea that it is more prevalent than we think.  And perhaps we should consider last night was a prime example since it seemed apparent to many women as they watched last night.  The sudden dismissal of it being an example by many men is doing these women a disservice, IMO. 

 
Sneegor said:
After watching last night I was very impressed with Pence.  He stayed calm and had very good answers.  I especially liked that he made the point that according to Biden he would have done nothing substantially differently than what Trump has done.  In fact, Biden opposing shutting down travel from China showed he would have fared far worse than Trump and many more American lives would have been lost.

I thought the moderator asked some terrible biased questions and Pence handled them very well.  He did go over his time sometimes but so did Kamala, you just didn't notice it as much for her because the moderator just let her talk.  

Finally, Harris body language and smirking was very similar to Hillary and we all know how Americans felt about that.  She was rude and condescending.
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Pence keep interrupting her, but she was the one who was rude and condescending? OK...

 
Jeez...is it so hard to comprehend that there are a lot of women in the US population that hate men interrupting them even when called out on it by the one being interrupted?  He then compounds it by continuing to interrupt her.  Even if it isn't sexist, it's certainly impolite and just reinforces the stigma Trump created with Biden in the debate last week.  Narratives feed on themselves and Pence just fed into it with this portion of the population.  There's no amount of mansplaining that will undo that view.

 
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gianmarco said:
Perhaps.  Or perhaps it is.  I would hope you'd agree that women are going to be more aware and sensitive to it than you or I, right? 

FWIW, it's not just the GW study.  Here is another example

So, as you said, just because women complain about it doesn't make it sexist.  But it also doesn't mean it isn't.  And perhaps we should be open to the idea that it is more prevalent than we think.  And perhaps we should consider last night was a prime example since it seemed apparent to many women as they watched last night.  The sudden dismissal of it being an example by many men is doing these women a disservice, IMO. 
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Was going to mention the supreme court study as well but didnt feel like looking up to confirm if the study controlled for voting. I am pretty sure it didnt, but couldnt remember for sure. 

Pence last night is exactly why we should not just take women feeling it is sexism at face value. He interrupted harris far less than he interrupted Kaine. That is the best comparison available(which obviously has its own flaws) and it isnt even close in number. Heck even the number of interruptions from last night obviously suffers from bias I have read he interrupted her ten times up to 16 times as previously linked upthread. 

Trump interrupted Clinton about half as much as he interrupted Biden, but accusations of this being because of sexism back in 2016 were common. 

So while they both might be sexist(or mysoginist) based on all sorts of other things that make that conclusion reasonable, their debate behavior really doesnt seem to make that cut. It is more likely they just arent very respectful dudes. 

 
Sammy3469 said:
Jeez...is it so hard to comprehend that there are a lot of women in the US population that hate men interrupting them even when called out on it by the one being interrupted?  He then compounds it by continuing to interrupt her.  Even if it isn't sexist, it's certainly impolite and just reinforces the stigma Trump created with Biden in the debate last week.  Narratives feed on themselves and Pence just fed into it with this portion of the population.  There's no amount of mansplaining that will undo that view.
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It was obvious to anyone that she had been overcoached all week to jump on any "Don't Interupt Me!$#%" moment she could find and she was trying way way too hard. She was very unimpressive but it's funny to watch all the followers try to jump on the same interruption schtick against the most mild mannered politician in our country.  :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 
GoBirds said:
It was obvious to anyone that she had been overcoached all week to jump on any "Don't Interupt Me!$#%" moment she could find and she was trying way way too hard. She was very unimpressive but it's funny to watch all the followers try to jump on the same interruption schtick against the most mild mannered politician in our country.  :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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That you for proving the point.  This is exactly why Trump is so underwater with suburban woman.  It's almost like the societal movements of the past 4 years hasn't registered at all with the Republican party.  

 
GoBirds said:
It was obvious to anyone that she had been overcoached all week to jump on any "Don't Interupt Me!$#%" moment she could find and she was trying way way too hard. She was very unimpressive but it's funny to watch all the followers try to jump on the same interruption schtick against the most mild mannered politician in our country. 
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And that would make Mike Pence undercoached all week and should have been cautioned not to do a Trump and repeatedly interrupt Harris, as it would not sit well with women viewers (as verified by comments by political pundits and ordinary folks on social media).

Charlie Sykes probably put it best

"Pence constantly ignoring female moderator and interrupting female opponent, is a brilliant strategy for winning back women voters. Genius."

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
A simple public "no we will never stack the SCOTUS" is all I need to hear.  Neither Biden nor Harris will say it.
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Why should they? It will only happen if the majority of the peoples repersentives bring forth legislation to do it. At that point then they can decide.  If they say no today Trump will just scream " "You just lost the left"

 
These 6 idiots in Michigan (dangerous yes, but still idiots) will no doubt be used by certain folks to be representative of many Trump supporters, in exactly the same way that Jane Fonda’s dumb comments are being used to be representative of many Trump opponents. Because that’s what we do these days. We’ve always had our share of crazy extremists among us. We’ve always had Weathermen and John Birchers, Antifa and militia types. The difference these days is that we try and stain our political opponents with their crimes. 

 
timschochet said:
These 6 idiots in Michigan (dangerous yes, but still idiots) will no doubt be used by certain folks to be representative of many Trump supporters, in exactly the same way that Jane Fonda’s dumb comments are being used to be representative of many Trump opponents. Because that’s what we do these days. We’ve always had our share of crazy extremists among us. We’ve always had Weathermen and John Birchers, Antifa and militia types. The difference these days is that we try and stain our political opponents with their crimes. 
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Yeah, I thought this was interesting from this article:

Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, has clashed repeatedly with Whitmer over her response to the coronavirus pandemic and her use of emergency powers. But he expressed outrage Thursday at the apparent plot.

"A threat against our governor is a threat against us all," Shirkey said. "We condemn those who plotted against her and our government. They are not patriots. There is no honor in their actions. They are criminals and traitors, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."
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Like, there's some assumption out there that he might be ok with it because he's been critical of the governor? There would be doubt about his position on kidnapping the governor if he hadn't said this?

 
dgreen said:
Yeah, I thought this was interesting from this article:

Like, there's some assumption out there that he might be ok with it because he's been critical of the governor? There would be doubt about his position on kidnapping the governor if he hadn't said this?
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Unfortunately he felt he had to say it. Do you remember, every time that there used to be a terrorist attack, every Muslim leader in this country was under pressure to condemn it? It was shameful that they felt they had to do this, but that’s where we were, and where we are now. 

 
timschochet said:
These 6 idiots in Michigan (dangerous yes, but still idiots) will no doubt be used by certain folks to be representative of many Trump supporters, in exactly the same way that Jane Fonda’s dumb comments are being used to be representative of many Trump opponents. Because that’s what we do these days. We’ve always had our share of crazy extremists among us. We’ve always had Weathermen and John Birchers, Antifa and militia types. The difference these days is that we try and stain our political opponents with their crimes. 
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One difference might be that our POTUS was actively encouraging this sort of behavior in that very state at that very time?

 
Goodell's Alias said:
One difference might be that our POTUS was actively encouraging this sort of behavior in that very state at that very time?
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No. 
 

You know what I think of Donald Trump. And his rhetoric on right wing extremism has been extremely irresponsible. But he hasn’t encouraged anyone to kidnap the governor. 

 
timschochet said:
Unfortunately he felt he had to say it. Do you remember, every time that there used to be a terrorist attack, every Muslim leader in this country was under pressure to condemn it? It was shameful that they felt they had to do this, but that’s where we were, and where we are now. 
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How do you know how he feels?

How am I feeling right now?

 
quick-hands said:
How do you know how he feels?

How am I feeling right now?
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I’m assuming, of course. It seems like a reasonable assumption. If you disagree with that, let me know why you disagree. 
 

As for your feelings, other than being excited and honored to be posting in this thread (that’s only natural) I have no idea. 

 
timschochet said:
I’m assuming, of course. It seems like a reasonable assumption. If you disagree with that, let me know why you disagree. 
 

As for your feelings, other than being excited and honored to be posting in this thread (that’s only natural) I have no idea. 
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I think he could absolutely mean it.   Cuz its exactly how I think about it.

Just the fact that u responded gives me a thrill up my leg.

 
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