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January 6th - what will happen?


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55 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I think you've got an unwieldy thesis on your hands. It's a lot more complicated than just that.

Fair enough.

To illustrate my point in a different way...

From 1991-2015, Republicans staunchly led the way in terms of defending the various Iraq & Afghanistan wars. Then Trump comes along and waves his hand, and suddenly it's OK for Republicans to admit that maybe there was no yellowcake after all.

Speaking of which, remember when Republicans never criticized veterans? John McCain says Hi.

And remember Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment? Liz Cheney and a hundred of her colleagues say Hi.

As for the church, it's true that Trump rode the evangelical wave to power and has refrained from criticizing them or their churches. But I would postulate that Trump's own irreverence contributed to the overall trend of declining church membership.

(For sure, the religious decline has been led by Democrats. But the Democratic decline started in the '90s, with Republicans holding relatively steady throughout that time. However, in the past 10 years, Republican church membership has dropped by 10%. So, is it a chicken-or-egg scenario? Did Trump's religious indifference make it okay for Republicans to stop going to church, or did increasing Republican agnosticism make it okay for a guy like Trump to win an election?? I think it's a little of both.)

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The President told MAGA to do it MAGA said they were going to do it MAGA filmed themselves doing it Afterwards, MAGA bragged about it Clearly, it was ANTIFA’s fault

So they're finally following the CDC guidelines for the pandemic?

One is an ugly, decrepit wasteland ruled by an assortment of villains hoping to impose their will on peace-loving people everywhere who otherwise just want to be left alone to tend to their gardens.

14 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

Fair enough.

To illustrate my point in a different way...

From 1991-2015, Republicans staunchly led the way in terms of defending the various Iraq & Afghanistan wars. Then Trump comes along and waves his hand, and suddenly it's OK for Republicans to admit that maybe there was no yellowcake after all.

Speaking of which, remember when Republicans never criticized veterans? John McCain says Hi.

And remember Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment? Liz Cheney and a hundred of her colleagues say Hi.

As for the church, it's true that Trump rode the evangelical wave to power and has refrained from criticizing them or their churches. But I would postulate that Trump's own irreverence contributed to the overall trend of declining church membership.

(For sure, the religious decline has been led by Democrats. But the Democratic decline started in the '90s, with Republicans holding relatively steady throughout that time. However, in the past 10 years, Republican church membership has dropped by 10%. So, is it a chicken-or-egg scenario? Did Trump's religious indifference make it okay for Republicans to stop going to church, or did increasing Republican agnosticism make it okay for a guy like Trump to win an election?? I think it's a little of both.)

Sure. But let's go point-by-point. This is not to say that Republicans have not turned against their former beliefs and aren't in thrall to Trump, but some of these issues are more complicated than they seem.

As for the first boldface font, remember Ron Paul at CPAC? Straw polling as the leader in 2012 under the explicit platform of ending our involvement in both Afghanistan and Iraq? He won the straw poll by ten percentage points over Romney. The American Right has always had a strain of isolationism. In fact, it was only the Cold War that made Republicans interventionist, and that was the uneasy alliance of the Cold Warriors and the elite intellectual rightist establishment thinkers who saw that in order to remain democratic, we must engage the world and end communism in Soviet Russia and its satellites within the Eastern Bloc.

Republicans did not criticize veterans, indeed. Unless they were deemed not Republican enough, like John Kerry. Then they criticized plenty, starting with Vietnam and on through to the Swift Boat brigade in 2004. So it's not that easy.

As for the church issue, the overall churchgoing rate in America has plummeted. I'd imagine it has plummeted even further for Democrats. We're a more secular country these days. Whether that secularism amongst Republicans allows them to tolerate Trump I don't know, but I do know the first thing he reaches for when he's in trouble are churches, flags, and Bibles, same as any other politician, but maybe a little more egregiously.

Now, there are many things Trump has exacerbated. I'd say the most definitive yet most nebulous of these things are found in the musings and writings of the new American "intellectual" right. A love of government expansion into the economy and nationalization of projects and industries is one thing that Trump has overseen. Another thing Trump has overseen and added to has been a decrease in a fidelity towards the democratic process as an important one. Ends are more important than means with he and his followers. There are other things, but it is hard not to find a strain of thought anathema to conservatism and the American Right, because the American Right has been many things at many times. It has always been a confused and muddled movement, beset by as many pluralities as Democrats, and even more so than them. It's never written that way, but it certainly is so. It took a Cold War and a magazine (National Review) to cement its coalitions of very disparate groups into a cohesive working party, as it were, and it seems those coalitions have splinted or moved leftward, leaving the Party up for grabs ideologically.

The Right was united for a time. The menace of communism lurked, and everybody from religious folk to parts of labor to extreme libertarians were able to make common cause under the grand notion that an individual possessed freedom of conscience. That was the Right's crowning achievement. Now, it seems, freedom of individual conscience is not enough. The Right no longer sees that this is possible without crushing and deleterious effects to the soul, so it needs a platform, a new burst of energy. A new cohesion built on an abstract notion of purity of soul. It seeks a cohesive way of seeing the world now that the old coalitions are fragmented and destroyed. "Standing athwart history yelling stop" was good enough of a slogan for a time. That the New Right finds its energies so close to another form of history yelling "go" is troublesome.

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6 hours ago, rockaction said:

Sure. But let's go point-by-point. This is not to say that Republicans have not turned against their former beliefs and aren't in thrall to Trump, but some of these issues are more complicated than they seem.

As for the first boldface font, remember Ron Paul at CPAC? Straw polling as the leader in 2012 under the explicit platform of ending our involvement in both Afghanistan and Iraq? He won the straw poll by ten percentage points over Romney. The American Right has always had a strain of isolationism. In fact, it was only the Cold War that made Republicans interventionist, and that was the uneasy alliance of the Cold Warriors and the elite intellectual rightist establishment thinkers who saw that in order to remain democratic, we must engage the world and end communism in Soviet Russia and its satellites within the Eastern Bloc.

Republicans did not criticize veterans, indeed. Unless they were deemed not Republican enough, like John Kerry. Then they criticized plenty, starting with Vietnam and on through to the Swift Boat brigade in 2004. So it's not that easy.

As for the church issue, the overall churchgoing rate in America has plummeted. I'd imagine it has plummeted even further for Democrats. We're a more secular country these days. Whether that secularism amongst Republicans allows them to tolerate Trump I don't know, but I do know the first thing he reaches for when he's in trouble are churches, flags, and Bibles, same as any other politician, but maybe a little more egregiously.

Now, there are many things Trump has exacerbated. I'd say the most definitive yet most nebulous of these things are found in the musings and writings of the new American "intellectual" right. A love of government expansion into the economy and nationalization of projects and industries is one thing that Trump has overseen. Another thing Trump has overseen and added to has been a decrease in a fidelity towards the democratic process as an important one. Ends are more important than means with he and his followers. There are other things, but it is hard not to find a strain of thought anathema to conservatism and the American Right, because the American Right has been many things at many times. It has always been a confused and muddled movement, beset by as many pluralities as Democrats, and even more so than them. It's never written that way, but it certainly is so. It took a Cold War and a magazine (National Review) to cement its coalitions of very disparate groups into a cohesive working party, as it were, and it seems those coalitions have splinted or moved leftward, leaving the Party up for grabs ideologically.

The Right was united for a time. The menace of communism lurked, and everybody from religious folk to parts of labor to extreme libertarians were able to make common cause under the grand notion that an individual possessed freedom of conscience. That was the Right's crowning achievement. Now, it seems, freedom of individual conscience is not enough. The Right no longer sees that this is possible without crushing and deleterious effects to the soul, so it needs a platform, a new burst of energy. A new cohesion built on an abstract notion of purity of soul. It seeks a cohesive way of seeing the world now that the old coalitions are fragmented and destroyed. "Standing athwart history yelling stop" was good enough of a slogan for a time. That the New Right finds its energies so close to another form of history yelling "go" is troublesome.

The Republican Party has propped themselves up by being the party of god and country. Their platform has catered to Christians,  from anti abortion policy to anti gay/trans stances to school vouchers. 
When you watch videos from stop the steal rallies prior to Jan 6 you hear a lot of god. Trump supporters would push “hard working, god fearing, we the people” type rhetoric. 
Im not sure what my point is here or if it really has anything to do with what you guys are discussing, but since the 80s the right has used religion as a political tool. They drape themselves in the flag and use phrases like “we the people” and bring god into it to give the sense that the ends justify the means. 

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32 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Telling they're praying for the voter fraud and not the truth. However it is all they have left.

Those are votes out there. They believe it, and that matters. The people they are electing like Paul gosar are actively working to push false rhetoric that the election has been stolen and we have to do something about it, by any means necessary. 

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4 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

Not gonna get a timeout. Not gonna get a timeout.

It was once said, per one of Hemingway's critics about his writing style, that what one must do to appreciate Hemingway is to imagine all of the flowery emotion and possibilities of the English language. Then, once one has contemplated such potential, strangle it to death. Then one could understand his stylistic leanings. 

So whatever you think you want to say, AJ, take a deep breath. Then do just what Hemingway did.

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20 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Amen...and Awomen. 

You don’t support this kind of stuff, right? Was this just a rare chance to rehash that zinger?

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4 hours ago, rockaction said:

It's ridiculous. I seriously have considered becoming an expat, but I think I love my country too much.

You can love your country from afar.  Just like you can live in a place and enjoy it, but not love the other country.

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When Republicans take the house in 2022 and still have control of it in 2024 they will not certify the results when Joe Biden wins re-election against Donald Trump. States will send multiple slates of electors and the actual results voted on by people won't matter. Book it. 

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55 minutes ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

When Republicans take the house in 2022 and still have control of it in 2024 they will not certify the results when Joe Biden wins re-election against Donald Trump. States will send multiple slates of electors and the actual results voted on by people won't matter. Book it. 

It's crazy that they have to worry about this. But it's definitely a possibility.  What would have happened if Pence had not certified the election?  This shows how far Trump and team is willing to go.

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1 hour ago, knowledge dropper said:

I don’t believe prayers work that way.  

I don’t know if you’re religious. I feel like you’re dodging the question here. Whether or not prayers work isn’t the issue. Using people’s faith to further a political agenda is. Maybe this doesn’t bother you. 

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5 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

I don’t know if you’re religious. I feel like you’re dodging the question here. Whether or not prayers work isn’t the issue. Using people’s faith to further a political agenda is. Maybe this doesn’t bother you. 

Didn’t seem like anyone was forcing them do participate in their prayer circle and they aren’t bothering anyone or doing any harm so who cares?

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People publicly praying to God hoping He intercedes to find election fraud is sick. I mean full on mentally ill. This is the sickness made real by the big lie. 

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32 minutes ago, kwille said:

People publicly praying to God hoping He intercedes to find election fraud is sick. I mean full on mentally ill. This is the sickness made real by the big lie. 

Pat Robertson told people to pray for an opening on the Supreme Court a while back. To me, this is pretty much the same. Divine intervention over sanity wins every time I guess. 

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1 hour ago, knowledge dropper said:

Didn’t seem like anyone was forcing them do participate in their prayer circle and they aren’t bothering anyone or doing any harm so who cares?

Well a bunch of people just stormed the Capitol after a series of rallies invoking god and country to “stop the steal.” 
Link

At about the 5 minute mark he starts talking about Jericho and god almighty. Seems you’re ok with this kind of stuff. 
 

I hope everyone goes to that link and listens and look at the people on the stage and someone try to justify that rhetoric.

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15 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Well a bunch of people just stormed the Capitol after a series of rallies invoking god and country to “stop the steal.” 
Link

At about the 5 minute mark he starts talking about Jericho and god almighty. Seems you’re ok with this kind of stuff. 
 

I hope everyone goes to that link and listens and look at the people on the stage and someone try to justify that rhetoric.

Do you get this outraged when you watch videos of people in Portland?   These people on January 6th carried no weapons and set no fires.  I don’t fear them nor do I support what they did.  

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Do you get this outraged when you watch videos of people in Portland?   These people on January 6th carried no weapons and set no fires.  I don’t fear them nor do I support what they did.  

I’m talking about co-opting religion for political purposes. Preying on people’s faith to push lies. I get it, you’re not willing to say you’re against this tactic if it suits your agenda. You try to deflect rather than address what I’m talking about. You make your amen and awomen jokes and snicker all you want. You say it’s not hurting anyone and I’m showing directly how it is being used to push lies to the point where people forced their way into the Capitol and used whatever they could find as weapons to beat police officers. If a protestor throws a brick at police it’s considered a weapon whether they brought it or not, same with hitting them with flagpoles. 

For the record, I don’t think smashing windows and spray painting “BLM” on everything or taking over parts of cities is ok either, but that’s not what I’m talking about, your simply deflecting.

Edited by Snorkelson
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1 hour ago, knowledge dropper said:

Do you get this outraged when you watch videos of people in Portland?   These people on January 6th carried no weapons and set no fires.  I don’t fear them nor do I support what they did.  

If I saw anyone using my faith/belief system (in this case Christianity) as justification for (OR pleading with God to) divinely intervene in our political process, it doesn't matter the setting, the answer is "yes".  So if the people in Portland were doing this, I'd be equally outraged.  I don't see why anyone wouldn't be....to the point I'm kinda hoping it's a rhetorical question.

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3 hours ago, kwille said:

People publicly praying to God hoping He intercedes to find election fraud is sick. I mean full on mentally ill. This is the sickness made real by the big lie

The talking point has been mentioned again - Everyone take a shot!

Do you guys get all your stuff from the same source?

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

The talking point has been mentioned again - Everyone take a shot!

Do you guys get all your stuff from the same source?

Sorry, too drunk from the "but BLM" and "CNN/MSM!" drinking games.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Snorkelson said:

I’m talking about co-opting religion for political purposes. Preying on people’s faith to push lies. I get it, you’re not willing to say you’re against this tactic if it suits your agenda. You try to deflect rather than address what I’m talking about. You make your amen and awomen jokes and snicker all you want. You say it’s not hurting anyone and I’m showing directly how it is being used to push lies to the point where people forced their way into the Capitol and used whatever they could find as weapons to beat police officers. If a protestor throws a brick at police it’s considered a weapon whether they brought it or not, same with hitting them with flagpoles. 

For the record, I don’t think smashing windows and spray painting “BLM” on everything or taking over parts of cities is ok either, but that’s not what I’m talking about, your simply deflecting.

Seriously, you can stop the fake outrage.  This has been happening - ON BOTH SIDES - since time immemorial.

All one has to do is bring up the Racist Boogeyman Around Every CornerTM nonsense the left spews daily to show you how people prey on people's emotions and faith.

Pro-Tip: Maybe you should clean up your own side before you start pointing fingers.

 

Edited by BladeRunner
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5 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Seriously, you can stop the fake outrage.  This has been happening - ON BOTH SIDES - since time immemorial.

All one has to do is bring up the Racist Boogeyman Around Every CornerTM nonsense the left spews daily to show you how people prey on people's emotions and faith.

Pro-Tip: Maybe you should clean up your own side before you start pointing fingers.

 

Ah, the sweet irony... 

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Just now, BladeRunner said:

Focus young grasshopper.  Keep your eye on the prize - start cleaning.

Still trying to figure out what you post had to do with faith/religion. Just yet another random way to bring up race hustlers and BLM?  

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Still trying to figure out what you post had to do with faith/religion. Just yet another random way to bring up race hustlers and BLM?  

Or you just being obtuse?  I vote that.  :shrug:

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15 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

The talking point has been mentioned again - Everyone take a shot!

Do you guys get all your stuff from the same source?

I prefer the "huge deception" myself. But hey, "tomato"/"tomahto".

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The election wasn't stolen. The ousted President claiming otherwise = big lie. 

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I'll drink to a simple truth. Prost! 

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Posted (edited)

 As a member of the Centrist, Establisment Cabal, I'm actually pretty glad that the Trumper mantra towards the ideals/goals of the Black Lives Movement is so hostile.  Imagine if they took the time to realize "Yes...these people who have been complaining about a government/society that has two sets of rules and who fear persecution and aggression from shadowy power brokers and their enforcers actually might have a point.  I should actually listen to them".  

Edited by Thunderlips
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

 As a member of the Centrist, Establisment Cabal, I'm actually pretty glad that the Trumper mantra towards the ideals/goals of the Black Lives Movement is so hostile.  Imagine if they took the time to realize "Yes...these people who have been complaining about a government/society that has two sets of rules and who fear persecution and aggression from shadowy power brokers and their enforcers actually might have a point.  I should actually listen to them".  

Per the bolded, who are you talking about?

If you want to listen to race hustlers, then fine, but don't act like this is some noble cause.  It ain't.  It's about money and power.  All you need to do is look at the 5 mansions and counting of the founder for starters.

People are always going to complain.  Always a professional grievance group somewhere.

Edited by BladeRunner
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45 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Per the bolded, who are you talking about?

If you want to listen to race hustlers, then fine, but don't act like this is some noble cause.  It ain't.  It's about money and power.  All you need to do is look at the 5 mansions and counting of the founder for starters.

People are always going to complain.  Always a professional grievance group somewhere.

I'm just glad the Trumpers, by and large, aren't willing to listen to the African American population in this country in regards to their concerns that there are two different systems of justice, there are two different sets of rules and that they are being held under by a government that doesn't have their interests at heart.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

Seriously, you can stop the fake outrage.  This has been happening - ON BOTH SIDES - since time immemorial.

All one has to do is bring up the Racist Boogeyman Around Every CornerTM nonsense the left spews daily to show you how people prey on people's emotions and faith.

Pro-Tip: Maybe you should clean up your own side before you start pointing fingers.

 

I don’t really follow how anti-racism activists are co-opting religion. Are they doing the same kind of thing I illustrated upthread? 

Edited by Snorkelson
Seriously
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8 hours ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

When Republicans take the house in 2022 and still have control of it in 2024 they will not certify the results when Joe Biden wins re-election against Donald Trump. States will send multiple slates of electors and the actual results voted on by people won't matter. Book it. 

But what if Kamala doesn't sign off on it?  This could turn into a complete cluster.  The party in power would have the advantage, I think.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

To deflect from one side's insurrection?

As opposed to the other side's insurrection? The only ones deflecting are you

Edited by BladeRunner
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1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

I'm just glad the Trumpers, by and large, aren't willing to listen to the African American population in this country in regards to their concerns that there are two different systems of justice, there are two different sets of rules and that they are being held under by a government that doesn't have their interests at heart.

Except none of that is true. Unless, of course, you listen to the race hustlers.

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