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☠ ☠ ☠ Official 2021 Las Vegas Raiders thread ☠ ☠ ☠ - only 3.5 more months of talking about draft reaches until real football arrives


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44 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Rumblings that it is expected we bring back Agholor on a 2 year $15 million deal. I would be happy with that. 

That seems very reasonable.  I'd rather bring him back than try to sign Juju.

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3 hours ago, ICON211 said:

That seems very reasonable.  I'd rather bring him back than try to sign Juju.

Would love to see Agholor back.   He is a solid WR 2.   The Raiders still need a WR1 or at least another WR 2 until they are in position to draft a WR 1.   

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Baby Huey traded back to Pats for a swap of 7th & 5th round picks.

Pats rework his deal to a one year rental, after which they will let him walk in FA and recoup a 3rd or 4th comp pick probably. Trading a late pick for a one-year rental, then flipping for a comp pick is brilliant. Peter King wrote an article a while back about how certain teams (Pats, Ravens) have mastered it to game the comp pick system. This is the second time the Pats are attempting it with Brown.

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15 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

Resigned Dallin Leavitt on a 1 year deal. Don't know how much. Special Teamer and that is about it. 

$860k, 1 year deal.  

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6 minutes ago, massraider said:

I'm guessing Trent is the captain of the no accountability team Agholor referenced. Wasn't he dead center of the idiots that can't follow Covid protocol cuddle party?

I'm under the same impression Mass. 

From Mayock's latest interview/presser. 

Quote

“Trent’s whole thing is when he’s healthy, in shape and ready to go, he’s as dominant as any tackle in football,” Mayock said. “And he proved that early in the 2019 season. Since then, it’s been kind of a roller coaster. So, really, what he needs to do more than anything is get himself in the best shape of his life and come out ready to prove that he is a dominant tackle in the National Football League. Really, that’s all it takes. If Trent gets in shape and stays committed, there’s not a better talent out there.”

That said, Mayock was noncommittal regarding Brown’s future with the team.

“Regarding Trent, the jury’s still out here,” Mayock said. “He’s under contract. Again, we believe in the talent of that player. There’d be nothing finer than to have Trent Brown at right tackle protecting Derek Carr next year in Week 1. But the jury’s out, and we still have to make decisions on our roster in general.”

Reading between the lines, with a sampling of hindsight, Trent wasn't measuring up to the expectations placed on him by the staff and/or team.  I'm comfortable with saying 'he gone!'.  As well stated in this thread, his cost vs 2 games of play, it doesn't make sense to keep him. A two round bump and cap savings makes this a good move.   Provides clarity and direction on what positions they need to address and removes a constant question mark. 

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Uhhhh....3 OL gone.  Looking more and more likely that OL will be the first pick.   What defense?  We don’t need no stinkin defense. 

Does anyone else feel like they got fleeced?  A 5th?  For brown and a 7th?

i keep hearing about the mass of good to great players that are going to be cut this/next week. Dunlap and Dupree are out there already.  I had a SERIOUS man crush on Dupree, before he blew out his knee  

Going to be interesting. 

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25 minutes ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Uhhhh....3 OL gone.  Looking more and more likely that OL will be the first pick.   What defense?  We don’t need no stinkin defense. 

Does anyone else feel like they got fleeced?  A 5th?  For brown and a 7th?

i keep hearing about the mass of good to great players that are going to be cut this/next week. Dunlap and Dupree are out there already.  I had a SERIOUS man crush on Dupree, before he blew out his knee  

Going to be interesting. 

No, I am glad we got something instead of just cutting him.

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22 minutes ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Uhhhh....3 OL gone.  Looking more and more likely that OL will be the first pick.   What defense?  We don’t need no stinkin defense. 

Does anyone else feel like they got fleeced?  A 5th?  For brown and a 7th?

i keep hearing about the mass of good to great players that are going to be cut this/next week. Dunlap and Dupree are out there already.  I had a SERIOUS man crush on Dupree, before he blew out his knee  

Going to be interesting. 

It looks like the Raiders got fleeced on the surface.  A dominant Tackle is certainly worth more than a fifth round pick but Brown does have injury issues. I’m not going to make judgement until after the season.  Let’s see how many games Brown plays and if he plays at a high level.  

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30 minutes ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Uhhhh....3 OL gone.  Looking more and more likely that OL will be the first pick.   What defense?  We don’t need no stinkin defense. 

I would like to retract my promise to leave this thread if D is not addressed with the first draft pick.   OL may need to be addressed first depending on how FA plays out and who is available in the draft.   The Raiders have a good QB and RB.   Those two players lose a lot of value without a good O line.  

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Guys like Huey Brown have been fleecing the Raiders for decades. Honestly can't remember the last top-tier FA hit for this organization. Never pay more than mid-tier money for free agents, unless they are walking HOFers, in their prime, coming from disfunctional organizations. Spend that money instead on the best coaches, scouts, analytics money can buy for draft/cap management. So obvious, and yet only a small handful of organizations seem to operate this way.

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Looking at the 'underrated' names on this list for some potential mid-tier FA names that could come in here and produce next year, without breaking bank potentially, should they linger after the first wave or two of signings...

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-most-overrated-underrated-2021-nfl-free-agents-at-every-position-dak-prescott-shaquill-griffin-more

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UNDERRATED: NELSON AGHOLOR

2020 team: Raiders | Age entering 2021 season: 28

Agholor has had a strange NFL career but hits free agency at just 27 years old coming off one of the best seasons of his career. He became the deep threat in the Raiders' offense that Henry Ruggs III was supposed to be, with only Tyreek Hill catching more touchdown passes on deep targets (20-plus air yards) than Agholor's six. Derek Carr‘s passer rating when throwing his way this season was 113.7, and the rediscovery of the deep pass transformed the Raiders' offense into an altogether more formidable threat this season.

Agholor has only two good seasons in five years in the NFL, and they were stylistically very different, but the version of his game we saw this season looked a lot like the version we saw in college that made him a first-round pick in 2015.

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UNDERRATED: DARYL WILLIAMS

2020 team: Bills | Age entering 2021 season: 29

You can look at Williams' NFL career and say he has just two good seasons in six years and use it as a reason to be down on his prospects, but they're also the only two full seasons he has played at right tackle.

His play was poor when he was moved to guard in 2019, surrendering 35 total pressures and 12 sacks across extensive snaps at three different positions. He earned PFF pass-blocking grades of 78.0 and 80.1 — for two different teams — when he was asked to play right tackle exclusively all season.

Williams is still only 28 and would upgrade several right tackle situations in the league based on what we have seen of his baseline at that position.

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UNDERRATED: CARL LAWSON

2020 team: Bengals | Age entering 2021 season: 26

Lawson doesn't have huge sack totals — he has just one double-digit sack season in his career, and it came back in 2017 — but he has been a consistently superior pass-rusher to Dupree in virtually every other way.

Last season, Lawson generated 64 total pressures and a PFF pass-rushing grade of 84.9, ninth in the league among edge rushers. He isn't much of a run defender, but he is significantly better as a pass-rushing force than his sack totals would lead you to believe, suggesting that he might be a bargain signing if teams still aren't looking beyond that bottom-line figure.

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UNDERRATED: SHELBY HARRIS

2020 team: Broncos | Age entering 2021 season: 30

Harris seems destined to go underrated for his entire NFL career. He earned a PFF grade of 90.0 in 2017 and finished the 2020 season at 88.3, and while he has struggled to replicate those numbers with an expanded role within the defense, he can be a destructive force in a limited role.

The former seventh-round pick has been a consistently good run defender, but his pass-rushing grades have improved in each of the past three seasons, peaking in 2020 with a mark of 83.5 thanks to 27 total pressures across 294 pass-rushing snaps. Harris might never be an every-down All-Pro, but he can massively upgrade a defensive front as part of a defensive rotation inside. Teams should look to lean into his strengths rather than get dissuaded by his limitations.

 

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30 minutes ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Fair enough on brown. But the titans got a 7th for a 1st rounder that has never amounted to anything.   We’ll see

Actually, if I understand correctly, the Dolphins got the BETTER 7th rounder AND the former (2020) 1st Rounder in the deal.   

(Full transparency, a buddy who is a Dolphin fan told me this.  I trust him about as far as I could throw Trent Brown .... so do with it what you well)

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1 hour ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Uhhhh....3 OL gone.  Looking more and more likely that OL will be the first pick.   What defense?  We don’t need no stinkin defense. 

Does anyone else feel like they got fleeced?  A 5th?  For brown and a 7th?

i keep hearing about the mass of good to great players that are going to be cut this/next week. Dunlap and Dupree are out there already.  I had a SERIOUS man crush on Dupree, before he blew out his knee  

Going to be interesting. 

Losing 3 OL does look worrisome on the surface, but look back on last season. There were so many injuries on the OL and it still was a pretty good unit. It is still way too early to tell how it will all shake out, but if they bring Incognito back at a cheaper price and sign Good to a deal, the only hole they'll need to plug will be at RT. And you're right, this move almost guarantees they will draft a tackle in the 1st round. I still think Toney is the crazy, out of left field pick that the Raiders always make. As for defense in the 1st round, don't bet on it.

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1 hour ago, DA RAIDERS said:

Uhhhh....3 OL gone.  

I think it looks worse on paper, then it does in reality.

Last season, according to Pro Football Reference:
> Incognito started 2 games (I'm not sure he finished both games)
> T. Brown started 5 games (don't think he finished all 5)
> G. Jackson started 16 games

So it's really like 1.45 OL gone.   Tack on the cap hit, and all the  moves makes sense...  

I'm still hoping for a Defensive pick in the 1st. 
 

 

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There were warning signs that Brown was an issue such as rumors of him being unhappy, weight gain and not available when maybe he could have been. 

I think the Raiders weren't getting the money's worth from him because of unavailability and they expect not to get more from him. 

Getting something for him versus cutting him is a win. 

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Kyle Long (OL) has unretired and is now a free agent.  For the simple reason of seeing "Long" on the back of a Raiders jersey again, I'd be ok with signing him. 

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I am not worried about the OL. I expected Brown to be gone. 

There are rumblings about bringing Incognito back, we could still bring Good back, Simpson showed promise. We need a RT. 

There will be more cuts from all teams. More talent will.be available. No reason to freak out about the Oline. 

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1 minute ago, kaso said:

Kyle Long (OL) has unretired and is now a free agent.  For the simple reason of seeing "Long" on the back of a Raiders jersey again, I'd be ok with signing him. 

I wonder how much he would want to play for the Raiders like Daddy did. 

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16 minutes ago, Bruno2 said:

Losing 3 OL does look worrisome on the surface, but look back on last season. There were so many injuries on the OL and it still was a pretty good unit. It is still way too early to tell how it will all shake out, but if they bring Incognito back at a cheaper price and sign Good to a deal, the only hole they'll need to plug will be at RT. And you're right, this move almost guarantees they will draft a tackle in the 1st round. I still think Toney is the crazy, out of left field pick that the Raiders always make. As for defense in the 1st round, don't bet on it.

I’m hanging on to this hope as well, regarding the OL. 2 of them barely played last year. And I’ve been saying they were going OL with the 1st, before they dropped anyone. 

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6 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

I am not worried about the OL. I expected Brown to be gone. 

There are rumblings about bringing Incognito back, we could still bring Good back, Simpson showed promise. We need a RT. 

There will be more cuts from all teams. More talent will.be available. No reason to freak out about the Oline. 

I’m not freaking out.  Just hate that there is now an obvious need for OL.  Which was there before, just not this glaring.

 Gruden gonna Gruden and ignore the d. Hope I’m wrong. 

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13 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

Would love to see Agholor back.   He is a solid WR 2.   The Raiders still need a WR1 or at least another WR 2 until they are in position to draft a WR 1.   

Crazy seeing Agholor wanted after years of Philly wanting him kidnapped and the ransom not paid.😂

Sometimes a change of locker room makes the player, and not the other way around.

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40 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

There were warning signs that Brown was an issue such as rumors of him being unhappy, weight gain and not available when maybe he could have been. 

I think the Raiders weren't getting the money's worth from him because of unavailability and they expect not to get more from him. 

Getting something for him versus cutting him is a win. 

Brown is such an enigma to me. There must be something about Belichick that can get the best out of him, that Gruden couldn't. If he goes over there and loses 50 pounds and plays all 16 games, I'm gonna be p@##d! 

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40 minutes ago, Bruno2 said:

Brown is such an enigma to me. There must be something about Belichick that can get the best out of him, that Gruden couldn't. If he goes over there and loses 50 pounds and plays all 16 games, I'm gonna be p@##d! 

None of us would be surprised though.   Some teams have a winning culture and other teams don’t.  The players know which teams are easy paychecks. 

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1 hour ago, DocHolliday said:

None of us would be surprised though.   Some teams have a winning culture and other teams don’t.  The players know which teams are easy paychecks. 

Just add him to the list of free agent busts Gruden has brought in. 

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48 minutes ago, 32 Counter Pass said:

https://twitter.com/victafur/status/1369396194158510087?s=21
 

Gruden, from 2019: "If we came up with the money to make the (Khalil Mack) contract happen, we wouldn’t have Trent Brown, we wouldn't have Antonio Brown, Lamarcus Joyner, and Vontaze Burfict, we wouldn’t have Tyrell Williams" ....

🤣🤣

In fairness, (and I get that this tweet is designed to rile, not be accurately desciptive)...

Mack's money would've been fully guaranteed and locked up the allocated cap space for 4-5+ years before any breathing room -exactly what was done to Chicago, who are now albatrossed with a HOF contract for a not-quite HOF player (distinguish Mack from Aaron Donald who signed similar terms that year).

Meanwhile, these Raider contracts were all designed with flexibility after 1-2 yrs should they bust. They all did, so now they're all gone and that huge pile of money is ready to be re-deployed.

Downside is the draft capital didn't go far beyond Jacobs (Arnette uninspiring rookie year). And as I mentioned in my last couple messages, breaking the bank for free agents is almost never a good idea. So even with the cap flexiblity, will Gruyock be able to find productive big dollar players during this second and final plate appearance from that trade?

All told, so far the trade has been Mack for Jacobs (+ TBD upside in Arnette) and a new crop of FAs. Seems in Chicago's favor, but that contract is still an albatross, given his lack of super-elite production. Trade still TBD overall, pending Mack returning to his best form, Arnette's progression and whomever they sign to contracts this coming offseason.

The winning play IMO was to keep and convince Mack to take a somewhat below market deal that year. Had we been a winning, highly functional franchise, we might have done exactly that. And/or if not, then we'd at least have a lot more to show from the treasure chest of draft/salary capital that came from trading him, beyond just Jacobs.

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31 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

In fairness, (and I get that this tweet is designed to rile, not be accurately desciptive)...

Mack's money would've been fully guaranteed and locked up the allocated cap space for 4-5+ years before any breathing room -exactly what was done to Chicago, who are now albatrossed with a HOF contract for a not-quite HOF player (distinguish Mack from Aaron Donald who signed similar terms that year).

Meanwhile, these Raider contracts were all designed with flexibility after 1-2 yrs should they bust. They all did, so now they're all gone and that huge pile of money is ready to be re-deployed.

Downside is the draft capital didn't go far beyond Jacobs (Arnette uninspiring rookie year). And as I mentioned in my last couple messages, breaking the bank for free agents is almost never a good idea. So even with the cap flexiblity, will Gruyock be able to find productive big dollar players during this second and final plate appearance from that trade?

All told, so far the trade has been Mack for Jacobs (+ TBD upside in Arnette) and a new crop of FAs. Seems in Chicago's favor, but that contract is still an albatross, given his lack of super-elite production. Trade still TBD overall, pending Mack returning to his best form, Arnette's progression and whomever they sign to contracts this coming offseason.

The winning play IMO was to keep and convince Mack to take a somewhat below market deal that year. Had we been a winning, highly functional franchise, we might have done exactly that. And/or if not, then we'd at least have a lot more to show from the treasure chest of draft/salary capital that came from trading him, beyond just Jacobs.

A couple years later, looking back with 20/20 I would say the trade will end up being a wash. Neither team has become a Super Bowl contender due to making the deal. I will give a slight edge to Chicago for making the playoffs this year. But the Bears were really counting on Trubisky to make the leap while on his rookie contract. That didn't happen, now they're saddled with Mack's hefty salary which will hamstring them in the next year or two. 

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$36 MM in cap space now after all the cuts (with an additional ~$13 MM more from Mariota and Richard, if needed).

Give the rookies $8 MM.

And Agholor $8 MM (hopefully less, please not more).

Still leaves ~$20 MM for Good and a some other impact FAs on OL and D before draft day, even w/o cutting Mariota. And if some key FA is a potential signing, then Mariota can be cut anytime. If not, keep him and try to flip him to a desperate contending team when the inevitable QB injuries strike during pre- and early season for a 2022 3rd or better.

One guy I'd like to see them target is Dalvin Tomlinson. I'm a big believer is having stout DTs and that guy is a proven commodity at that position, who should improve the run D and free up Hurst and Ferrell for some badly needed 3-tech inside rush. But only for a cap-friendly deal!

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5 hours ago, DA RAIDERS said:

I’m not freaking out.  Just hate that there is now an obvious need for OL.  Which was there before, just not this glaring.

 Gruden gonna Gruden and ignore the d. Hope I’m wrong. 

We are now suppose to be in the top 10 teams with cap space. FA hasn't even started. 

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5 hours ago, G-King said:

Crazy seeing Agholor wanted after years of Philly wanting him kidnapped and the ransom not paid.😂

Sometimes a change of locker room makes the player, and not the other way around.

He played well for us. A change of scenery, system, how they are used, etc can make or break a player.

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5 hours ago, Bruno2 said:

Brown is such an enigma to me. There must be something about Belichick that can get the best out of him, that Gruden couldn't. If he goes over there and loses 50 pounds and plays all 16 games, I'm gonna be p@##d! 

Not sure Gruden had much to do with him not playing most of the time. Could he have gone out a couple of times? Maybe. 

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2 hours ago, 32 Counter Pass said:

https://twitter.com/victafur/status/1369396194158510087?s=21
 

Gruden, from 2019: "If we came up with the money to make the (Khalil Mack) contract happen, we wouldn’t have Trent Brown, we wouldn't have Antonio Brown, Lamarcus Joyner, and Vontaze Burfict, we wouldn’t have Tyrell Williams" ....

🤣🤣

That didn't age well. 

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47 minutes ago, Bruno2 said:

A couple years later, looking back with 20/20 I would say the trade will end up being a wash. Neither team has become a Super Bowl contender due to making the deal. I will give a slight edge to Chicago for making the playoffs this year. But the Bears were really counting on Trubisky to make the leap while on his rookie contract. That didn't happen, now they're saddled with Mack's hefty salary which will hamstring them in the next year or two. 

And we picked them as a trade partner because we knew Trubisky was what he was. 

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Also... this gives us more leverage with Mariota. It isn't a lock now that we don't keep him on board. 

If someone offers value for home... good bye. 

If not, we keep him as a top end back up to Carr and then we might get a comp pick. 

I don't want to release him if for nothing more than getting leverage in future trade talks with players we may or may not cut. We have the cap space to keep him. You want him? Give up something for him. 

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1 hour ago, Chadstroma said:

Also... this gives us more leverage with Mariota. It isn't a lock now that we don't keep him on board. 

If someone offers value for home... good bye. 

If not, we keep him as a top end back up to Carr and then we might get a comp pick. 

I don't want to release him if for nothing more than getting leverage in future trade talks with players we may or may not cut. We have the cap space to keep him. You want him? Give up something for him. 

This is the correct thinking.  

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2 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

Also... this gives us more leverage with Mariota. It isn't a lock now that we don't keep him on board. 

If someone offers value for home... good bye. 

If not, we keep him as a top end back up to Carr and then we might get a comp pick. 

I don't want to release him if for nothing more than getting leverage in future trade talks with players we may or may not cut. We have the cap space to keep him. You want him? Give up something for him. 

Exactly.

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5 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

Reports that we have met with AJ Bouye. 

He'll be suspended the first 2 games, so I'm sure they're looking for a bargain signing. If brought in, he's definitely an upgrade. 

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29 minutes ago, Bruno2 said:

He'll be suspended the first 2 games, so I'm sure they're looking for a bargain signing. If brought in, he's definitely an upgrade. 

And if healthy. 

CB Butler was just released and S Vaccaro were released by the Titans. Unlike any year before there will be a surplus of good vets available to sign because of the cap going down. 

With good coaching hopefully these signings (whoever we bring in) perform better than the past. 

I do expect Littleton to perform much better. I won't be surprised to see Joyner perform better at S for another team. 

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Gabe Jackson is still on the roster..... It was reported last week that the Raiders were cutting Jackson, but Las Vegas general manager Mike Mayock said he couldn’t “confirm or deny” the report. 

Maybe trying to rework a deal with him?

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2 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

The chefs cut both starting tackles. Schwartz might be an interesting replacement for our RT. His back surgery isn't expected to take him out of any playing time. 

I dunno. Back problems have destroyed OL careers for as long as this game has been played. It'd be a high risk/reward proposition IMO. Rather stick with dependable names, if there are alternatives. Would love to see Trent Williams signed for the money Trent Brown was set to receive.

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Just now, LawFitz said:

I dunno. Back problems have destroyed OL careers for as long as this game has been played. It'd be a high risk/reward proposition IMO. Rather stick with dependable names, if there are alternatives. Would love to see Trent Williams signed for the money Trent Brown was set to receive.

Isn't Trent like 50 years old now?

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  • Hankmoody changed the title to ☠ ☠ ☠ Official 2021 Las Vegas Raiders thread ☠ ☠ ☠ - only 3.5 more months of talking about draft reaches until real football arrives

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