fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
My preference would be to try to get them vaccinated rather than leaving them to get sick. There are plenty of approaches, both carrots and sticks, that could put a big dent in the number of unvaccinated people.
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Why is Biden Still Wearing a Mask? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter ekbeats
- Start date
That’s crazy. I’d be shocked if things return to anything closely resembling normal even a year from now. Americans do a very poor job of risk analysis. I work in insurance and I always tell new underwriters to remember that we are in the risk management business, not risk avoidance.
dkp993
Footballguy
The real question I have is do these idiots who don’t get vaccinated leave enough space for COVID to continue to mutate possibly into something far more deadly and we can’t control?
One approach would be to reward them. Tell them they no longer have to wear a mask and socially distance if they get the vaccine, because you know, vaccinated people dont get sick or carry the virus.
randall146
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Maybe rebrand one of the vaccines "Lib Tears."
The General
Footballguy
Yep. We were lucky enough to be able to get one and there are dopes out there ruining the chances.
Trump’s legacy unfortunately. I’ll always say that his handling of Covid is what primarily lost him the election. That’s when he lost me.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Because of the variables mentioned, as well as questions about the durability of immunity, any target will be fairly arbitrary. A range seems more appropriate to account for some of that uncertainty. As we already have such a range, I don’t think the suggestion of moving goalposts is warranted.
What do you hope to achieve with a concrete herd immunity threshold? Individual states and regions have already shown they’ll “open up” and remove restrictions in spite of rising caseload/hospitalizations, and we collectively have skirted all sorts of guidance throughout the pandemic.
Let’s say we pick 75% as the magic number. Since we’re unlikely to get that high through vaccination alone, how would you determine when herd immunity is reached? In your vision of pandemic management, what would happen at that point?
How does international travel factor in? Are you OK with mask mandates in that context, as it’s gonna be a loooonng time before the developing world approaches herd immunity, if ever. Or should we just accept covid as part of life moving forward, and leave decisions about vaccination an NPIs to individuals?
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FairWarning
Footballguy
Unfortunately many of these people are not wearing them now, especially in rural areas.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Why would foreign countries want to take on maskless travelers without a vaccine passport from the US. Should we let these people fly into Vegas from all over the world without one?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Isn't the point from the CDC is that we are figuring out if this is true on the fly?
Also not sure the first part is true either - that vaccinated people don't get sick.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
While that research letter is far from definitive, within the limits of the study (powered to detect a meaningful difference of 2%, IIRC), masks didn’t promote hypoxia.
I’m not sure about the physics of a moisture barrier, but we have no direct evidence impairment in gas exchange is relevant for mask wearers. But we do have at least a couple small studies which suggest otherwise. Here’s another one
I know it’s also a small group, but can you provide any data suggesting to the contrary?
With a concrete number I hope to achieve what one expects to achieve with herd immunity, including a loosening of internal restrictions on a federal level. One example is the CDC’s moratorium on evictions under the guise of Covid; that is a matter for our legislature and not an autocratic executive branch.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/pdf/CDC-Eviction-Moratorium-03292021.pdf
The above started under Trump by the way; I disagree with it then as I do now.
Also the president could use such a number as a goal for the populace, upon which he and the federal government would encourage states to further ease restrictions.
My main point though is that Biden and company have no intentions of letting go of this crisis, since it enables them to justify ever-increasing control at the federal level.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Tourism money?
I’m all for mandating SARS-CoV-2 vaccination for travel, both domestically and internationally.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Fair enough, but I disagree with your main point. This is a legitimate pandemic, not some imagined crisis exploited solely for political gain.
Restrictions have begun to ease already, and there’s no reason to believe they won’t continue to do so moving forward.
I didn’t say it wasn’t a legitimate pandemic, and we can agree to disagree on whether or not the CDC had the authority to step in like it did late last year. I would argue though that today, even in the absence of a herd immunity target, we are beyond the point where such an overstepping of bounds is required.
Edit: And clearly you missed my main point. What started as a true crisis is now becoming more about the maintenance of power at the federal level.
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‘It’s Been Devastating’: UMass Amherst Students Suspended For Not Wearing Masks Off-Campus
ANDOVER (CBS) – Andover parents Kristin and Scott are speaking out on behalf of their daughter. She along with two of her friends are freshmen at UMass Amherst. A picture posted on social media of the three friends not wearing masks outside was handed over to the university and that has landed them in serious trouble.
“There was a photo sent to the administration of these girls outside off campus on a Saturday. This is why they lost a whole semester of their schooling,” Kristin said.
Teresa and RJ’s daughter was also suspended. “She was valedictorian and class president of her high school. She did everything right,” RJ said.
Students on campus say the rules have been tight this year but for good reason. “Maybe a little harsh but like I understand it because you’re not supposed to be doing that,” one student told WBZ Friday night.
“The town of Amherst made it really clear they don’t want any big parties,” another student said.
What also infuriates the parents of the suspended students was video of the UMass Amherst Hockey Team celebrating their national championship on campus. Some students, including some of the players, could be seen not wearing masks.
“I just want the university administration to be equitable and fair,” RJ said.
“It’s heartbreaking,” Teresa said.
Since their suspension, the students have been studying remotely at their homes. However, last week they were cut off from virtual learning. They were not allowed to take their finals, so parents say their kids’ semester was a total loss, both financially and academically.
“That negates this whole semester $16,000 of money and they have to reapply for next semester. But they missed housing registration,” Scott said.
UMass Amherst released a statement saying: “Students received a number of public health messages this semester that emphasized the importance of following public health protocols and the consequences for not complying, and those messages were also shared on UMass social media channels.”
The parents disagree with the university’s decision. “One little thing happens and you’re out? Like not even like a don’t do it again, here’s some probation,” Teresa said.
“So for this to happen it’s been devastating,” Kristin said.
The families have hired a lawyer and plan to file a lawsuit.
ANDOVER (CBS) – Andover parents Kristin and Scott are speaking out on behalf of their daughter. She along with two of her friends are freshmen at UMass Amherst. A picture posted on social media of the three friends not wearing masks outside was handed over to the university and that has landed them in serious trouble.
“There was a photo sent to the administration of these girls outside off campus on a Saturday. This is why they lost a whole semester of their schooling,” Kristin said.
Teresa and RJ’s daughter was also suspended. “She was valedictorian and class president of her high school. She did everything right,” RJ said.
Students on campus say the rules have been tight this year but for good reason. “Maybe a little harsh but like I understand it because you’re not supposed to be doing that,” one student told WBZ Friday night.
“The town of Amherst made it really clear they don’t want any big parties,” another student said.
What also infuriates the parents of the suspended students was video of the UMass Amherst Hockey Team celebrating their national championship on campus. Some students, including some of the players, could be seen not wearing masks.
“I just want the university administration to be equitable and fair,” RJ said.
“It’s heartbreaking,” Teresa said.
Since their suspension, the students have been studying remotely at their homes. However, last week they were cut off from virtual learning. They were not allowed to take their finals, so parents say their kids’ semester was a total loss, both financially and academically.
“That negates this whole semester $16,000 of money and they have to reapply for next semester. But they missed housing registration,” Scott said.
UMass Amherst released a statement saying: “Students received a number of public health messages this semester that emphasized the importance of following public health protocols and the consequences for not complying, and those messages were also shared on UMass social media channels.”
The parents disagree with the university’s decision. “One little thing happens and you’re out? Like not even like a don’t do it again, here’s some probation,” Teresa said.
“So for this to happen it’s been devastating,” Kristin said.
The families have hired a lawyer and plan to file a lawsuit.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Shula-holic
Footballguy
I don't see it as ruining our chances, I'm going to go about my life as I did before including going to games, gatherings, etc. I wish everyone would get it as well but it's been over a year. Whether you're a Trump fan or Biden fan we've done a good job of getting the vaccine developed and out there for everyone. I think we've done what we can at that point.
I get that ideally we would have more people opt in, if not everyone then 70-80%. But the people I know who aren't planning to get it aren't going to be enticed or influenced by the government to get it. Trying that kind of influence or persuasion is counter productive as many of the people who don't want the vaccine have skeptical views of the government. In this case I disagree with them but I think we need to be realistic about what can be achieved. The biggest thing I've seen that has caused people to change their mind is either they get sick or someone in their family does. I've known a couple of people adamant they wouldn't get a vaccine, then they or a loved one had Covid, and now they are strong proponents of getting the vaccine.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You should be permanently banned for this post.
Well, not really. But perming you for a somewhat-poorly-conceived post would be approximately as just as suspending students for dropping their masks while outdoors. Let's apply a little proportion and common sense here, and also follow the science, which tells us that we really don't need to worry much about outdoor transmission.
The General
Footballguy
If everyone got this we’d be done by end of summer. We got a gift that they were able to figure out such an effective vaccine so fast. This 30% of the population or what ever the number settles is astounding to me. Refusing to get this for whatever crackpot reasons they have causes this to drag on, potentially turn into something worse, divides us.
If by August an individual hasn’t gotten it yet, that’s a “you” problem. Sounds like a #### thing to say but really what else can be done at that point. If they have to learn the hard way so be it. If they don’t get very sick, or don’t get sick at all well fantastic.
These dip####s like Tucker Carlson who are making a business out of “just asking questions” are the worst among us.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
I don't think that's a bad thing to say at all, I think we are close to being to that point now, not a wait til August thing. Around here, appointments are plentiful and have been for a few weeks. I'm fine with giving the 5-6 weeks it takes for someone to get both shots and let them have effect, but we are already into that 5-6 week period. I don't think the rest of us should have to wait on people who aren't going to be convinced, therefore waiting serves no purpose. And to be honest, I don't think the 30% or whatever they turn out to be expect or want the rest of us to wait either.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Yeah that UMASS story is insane.
I agreed with you up until the Tucker Carlson rant. He is in favor of vaccinations and says so regularly on his program. But the first part of your post is right on point. That’s why I think we need to do a full opening in August with no more masks. That’ll get us to herd immunity quicker. And I won’t feel one ounce of sympathy for the anti-vaccers. Social Darwinism at work.
djmich
Footballguy
Hard to believe they can say this and then using the same lips say the vaccine is safe...and we're not learning on the flyIsn't the point from the CDC is that we are figuring out if this is true on the fly?
Also not sure the first part is true either - that vaccinated people don't get sick.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I'd go nuclear if this happened to me or my child. This isn't science based or equitable at all and clearly the punishment does not fit the crime. Outdoor transmission of the virus is minimal, yet many sources are pushing it as a mandate. They don't believe in science at this point, but fear. For people that have been vaccinated, it is the same thing. The vaccine works and the virus is transmitted almost exclusively indoors and surface to surface transmission is nigh impossible. Act accordingly and we can all get through this. Kicking kids out of school for not wearing a mask in a photo outdoors is insane level fear mongering (or the results of fear mongering).
The General
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
I like this August idea. I’ve been trying to think of a positive reinforcement type approach that would work, but I’m drawing a blank. Your idea provides a deadline of sorts which will get some of the lazy/fence sitters vaccinated. And those who don’t, honestly will mostly be OK because August probably won’t be a peak month, but some will still get it and build closer to our amorphous herd immunity goal without overly taxing the health care system.
If I’m wrong about my memory of last August being between peaks I’m open to a different month.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
It's pretty safe to be outside without a mask. Not as safe as being locked in your house, but safe enough that a reasonable person might opt to attend an outdoor kegger vs. something way more dangerous like attending an indoor lecture in a poorly ventilated university building.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
More to the point, we should have been encouraging people to get outdoors and enjoy outdoor activities a year or so ago. If there was ever any real question about whether beaches, playgrounds, trails, etc are safe, the BLM protests and lack of significant mass spread tied to them should have prompted us to update our priors.
djmich
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
I don't agree with them but I don't see it as fear-mongering. Just a stupid policy.
top dog
Footballguy
I think the obvious answer to the question as to "why does Biden still wear a Mask?" is to control us. Duh. At least that is what I have been told for months by some people. Masks = control = well.. I'm not sure what is next but it is obviously something HORRIBLE. Probably socialism? Or even worse, communism? I've never had one of those folks articulate the end game to me, but they sure do seem to be pretty passionate and angry about it.
I'm fully vaccinated. Have supported mask mandates. Social distancing, etc. Wear a mask anywhere that is required of me at this point to set a good example, but I'm ok with ripping the mask off as soon as the mandates drop. I'm guessing we will be dropping ours in this state around June 15? Takes 6 weeks from start to finish with the Moderna vax. Once everyone who wants to be vaccinated can get vaccinated, drop the mandates. Those who chose to take the risk, well you are on your own. Local mass vaccination places and drug stores around here started taking walk-ins about a week ago. 6 weeks later puts us around June 15th. That is were I'm pulling that number out of my butt from.
I'm fully vaccinated. Have supported mask mandates. Social distancing, etc. Wear a mask anywhere that is required of me at this point to set a good example, but I'm ok with ripping the mask off as soon as the mandates drop. I'm guessing we will be dropping ours in this state around June 15? Takes 6 weeks from start to finish with the Moderna vax. Once everyone who wants to be vaccinated can get vaccinated, drop the mandates. Those who chose to take the risk, well you are on your own. Local mass vaccination places and drug stores around here started taking walk-ins about a week ago. 6 weeks later puts us around June 15th. That is were I'm pulling that number out of my butt from.
The Football Freak
Footballguy
Biden has more multi-trillion dollar “stimulus” packages to push, but to get buy-in he needs to maintain the perception that the economy is struggling and we can’t fix it without the feds. Reference the continued federal payments of UI.
Other proposals for increased federal control include H.R. 1 to take control of voting from the states, and a push for a $15 federal minimum wage in defiance of basic economics and common sense.
The Football Freak
Footballguy
NIH study on mask moisture.
A tertiary study discussing droplets and mask.
Thought you might find these interesting.
The Football Freak
Footballguy
“In addition to mechanistic information, researchers have also evaluated the size and content characteristics of the SARS-CoV-2 particles. Upon analysis of negative-stained SARS-CoV-2 articles by electron microscopy, different researchers have had varying results, but the diameter of the virus has been found to range between 50 nm to 140 nm.”
“The study considered separation of the main components of air: oxygen, nitrogen and argon. The molecular sizes of oxygen, nitrogen and argon are 0.299, 0.305, and 0.363 nanometers (nm).”
“The study considered separation of the main components of air: oxygen, nitrogen and argon. The molecular sizes of oxygen, nitrogen and argon are 0.299, 0.305, and 0.363 nanometers (nm).”
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
safe = minimal reaction, minimal risk of severe reaction if you do come in contact, etc, right?
my understanding was they are 100% sure about transfer risk in the vaccinated, and risk with different strains popping up. I could be wrong, and will admit to hitting a wall with this and not following a ton in the last couple months.
imo it's not a big deal to keep wearing masks for a bit to give everyone who wants one a chance to get a shot. I think it's really silly to write it off as virtue signaling or not following science.
can't speak for everyone or every place, but my wife had trouble getting in for a shot, and is still a couple weeks away from getting dose 2.
I like the above poster's idea of a cutoff date to give people a goal and a realistic chance of people who wants a vaccine being able to get one.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I only just now realized that it's illegal to advertise covid-19 vaccines. It seems like this is the sort of thing that I -- a libertarian who feels like the pandemic has firmly reinforced all his ideological priors, like everyone else -- might have noticed earlier.
If we ever go back and do a thorough reckoning over all the ways that we mismanaged this pandemic, it's going to be pretty wild. There's the obvious stuff, like the President of the United States telling people that maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to inject themselves with bleach. But then there's the run of the mill regulatory-state stuff that should probably have ended careers but didn't for some reason.
Edit: For example, imagine that Anthony Fauci was, at least in part, personally responsible for the gain-of-function NIH grant that created the SARS-Cov-2 virus in the first place. I'd still put that as <50% likely to be true, but let's revisit that one this time next year.
If we ever go back and do a thorough reckoning over all the ways that we mismanaged this pandemic, it's going to be pretty wild. There's the obvious stuff, like the President of the United States telling people that maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to inject themselves with bleach. But then there's the run of the mill regulatory-state stuff that should probably have ended careers but didn't for some reason.
Edit: For example, imagine that Anthony Fauci was, at least in part, personally responsible for the gain-of-function NIH grant that created the SARS-Cov-2 virus in the first place. I'd still put that as <50% likely to be true, but let's revisit that one this time next year.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I was joking.
we have gone a bit overboard with this stuff when we are policing masks outside so much. I passed by the school the other day and the softball team was on the field practicing, spread out on the field, yup- with masks on.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
That's really ridiculous. It's one thing for a business to ask people to mask indoors while they are shopping, but there's zero benefit to wearing outdoors on a softball field.KarmaPolice said:
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