Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
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June 14th is Flag Day (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Opie
- Start date
At what point will there be calls to ban the American flag?
A Fourth of July Symbol of Unity That May No Longer Unite
SOUTHOLD, N.Y. — The American flag flies in paint on the side of Peter Treiber Jr.’s potato truck, a local landmark parked permanently on County Route 48, doing little more, he thought, than drawing attention to his family’s farm.
Until he tried to sell his produce.
At a local greenmarket where he sells things like wild bergamot, honey and sunflowers, he had trouble striking a deal until, he said, he let his liberal leanings slip out in conversation with a customer.
“She said, ‘Oh, whew. You know, I wasn’t so sure about you, I thought you were some flag-waving something-or-other,’” Mr. Treiber, 32, recalled the woman saying and citing his potato truck display. “That’s why she was apprehensive of interacting with me.”
He paused: “It was a little sad to me. It shows the dichotomy of the country that a flag can mean that. That I had to think, ‘Do I need to reconsider having that out there?’”
Thirteen stripes, a dusting of stars, the American flag has had infinite meanings over the 244 years since the country began flying one. Raised at Iwo Jima, it was a symbol of victory. Lit on fire, it became a searing image of the protests against the Vietnam War. Ribboned around the twin towers on commemorative Sept. 11 lapel pins, it is a reminder of the threats against a delicate democracy.
Politicians of both parties have long sought to wrap themselves in the flag. But something may be changing: Today, flying the flag from the back of a pickup truck or over a lawn is increasingly seen as a clue, albeit an imperfect one, to a person’s political affiliation in a deeply divided nation.
Supporters of former President Donald J. Trump have embraced the flag so fervently — at his rallies, across conservative media and even during the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol — that many liberals like Mr. Treiber worry that the left has all but ceded the national emblem to the right.
What was once a unifying symbol — there is a star on it for each state, after all — is now alienating to some, its stripes now fault lines between people who kneel while “The Star-Spangled Banner” plays and those for whom not pledging allegiance is an affront.
And it has made the celebration of the Fourth of July, of patriotic bunting and cakes with blueberries and strawberries arranged into Old Glory, into another cleft in a country that seems no longer quite so indivisible, under a flag threatening to fray.
Mr. Treiber’s farm is in the town of Southold, a string of hamlets and a village on the North Fork of Long Island’s Suffolk County. The county chose Mr. Trump for president in 2020 by just 232 votes out of more than 770,000 cast.
Southold is predominantly white, with a small, longstanding Black population — families who reside mostly in the village, Greenport, at the edge of the salty Peconic Bay. There is also a significant Latino population, many of them undocumented, their labor underpinning the vineyards, farms and landscaping businesses that line the peninsula.
The pressure to draw partisan lines is fierce.
Just across the street from Treiber Farms, David Surozenski, 66, was weeding around the flagpole in his front yard a few days before the Fourth of July. Bouquets of miniature American flags flapped among the marigolds at his feet. Above him flew the flags of the Marines and the Coast Guard — he has children in each service — and at the top, an American flag.
A Republican, Mr. Surozenski said friends constantly pressured him to add Trump banners to his flag-and-flower garden, to fly “Make America Great Again” signs between his red, white and blue pinwheels whirling in the grass. But Mr. Surozenski declined — some of his eight children are Democrats.
“They said, ‘Dave, you’ve got to put Trump’s flag up!’ and I said, ‘No, that’s not happening,’” Mr. Surozenski recalled. “That’s not the way I was brought up. The American flag political? No.”
About 70 percent of Americans say the flag makes them feel proud, according to a recent survey by YouGov, a global public opinion and data research firm, and NBCLX, a mobile information platform. The sentiment was shared by about 80 percent of white Americans, just under 70 percent of Hispanic Americans and slightly less than 60 percent of Black Americans.
The divisions were deeper when it came to politics. While 66 percent of Republicans surveyed said they associated the flag with their own party, only 34 percent of Democrats said the same.
At its 1777 inception, the flag’s very design signified unity, the joining of the 13 colonies, said John R. Vile, a professor of political science and a dean at Middle Tennessee State University.
Politicizing the American flag is thus a perversion of its original intent, according to Professor Vile, who is also the author of “The American Flag: An Encyclopedia of the Stars and Stripes In U.S. History, Culture and Law.” He added, “We can’t allow that to happen.”
“It’s E Pluribus Unum — from many, one,” he said, citing the Latin motto on the Great Seal of the United States. “If the pluribus overwhelms the unum, then what do we have left?”
The sentiment of some conservatives is that a line was drawn when Colin Kaepernick, the former National Football League quarterback, set off a national movement protesting the shootings of Black men by police by taking a knee during the anthem in 2016. His kneeling protest, Mr. Kaepernick has said, still demonstrated respect for the flag, but others saw him as hijacking the flag for political purposes.
Maryneily Rodriguez, 33, said she believed that Mr. Trump’s most fervent supporters had done the same. Ms. Rodriguez, who was visiting Greenport with her fiancé during the Fourth of July weekend, said that she once regularly flew the flag at her home in Freeport, about 80 miles west on Long Island, taking it down only in winter for safekeeping. But about three years ago when spring came, Ms. Rodriguez, who is Black and a Democrat, left the flag in storage. It hasn’t come out since.
“It felt like it didn’t belong to me anymore,” she said.
John Hocker, a Republican who said he sometimes votes Democratic, also said he felt the flag had lost its meaning of unity. Instead of saluting the same flag as one people, he said, too many Americans were modifying it to become emblems of their own identities or belief systems, for instance with rainbow stripes, a symbol of gay pride, or blue stripes to show solidarity with the police.
He flies the flag — the red, white and blue one — from a towering crane several stories above the gravel piles of Latham Sand & Gravel, where he is a co-owner.
“There is a lot of history with this country, some that maybe people don’t like today, and some that people are being judged for today for what they did 300 years ago,” he said.
“It’s still our country and every good and bad thing made it our country,” Mr. Hocker said, glancing upward. “And that’s what that represents.”
The culture war he was alluding to was on full display a few miles away, hanging from the eaves of an empty roadside stand: “SAVE AMERICA” was printed along the flag’s top border, and below: “FIGHT SOCIALISM.”
And on a notice tacked nearby: “If this offends you LEAVE.”
At Rinconcito Hispano in Greenport, Ana Perez, 33, served up pupusas, stuffed masa flour patties from her native El Salvador, to customers who ordered exclusively in Spanish. Many of them are the laborers who clean the pools at the beach houses and scare the crows off the grapes at the wineries.
In 2017, as Mr. Trump began his crackdown on illegal immigration, village trustees unanimously adopted a resolution to declare Greenport “a welcoming community.” One resident opposing the measure at the meeting urged the public to call and report anyone who employed undocumented immigrants. Wearing an American flag on his chest, he held up a sign with a phone number.
Ms. Perez said she has an American flag T-shirt, too, and she intended to wear it on the holiday. “This symbolizes this country, and I live in this country,” she said, speaking in Spanish because she is not fluent in English. “This flag is for all.”
Strolling with her fiancé, Anthony Dipolito, Ms. Rodriguez took in the 1920 wooden carousel beside the marina in Greenport.
As she crossed through Mitchell Park, she was struck by the sight of a forest of American flags. It was not a prop for a political rally, but rather a peaceful “field of honor” installed by the Greenport Rotary Club.
Each flag represented not an ideological belief, according to the club, but a veteran or other citizen who had inspired or helped the community.
“I’ve always loved the American flag so much, and now seeing it by the carousel I felt happy again,” Ms. Rodriguez said, as all around her red, white, and blue cloth still waved. “And I haven’t felt that way about the flag in such a long time.”
A Fourth of July Symbol of Unity That May No Longer Unite
SOUTHOLD, N.Y. — The American flag flies in paint on the side of Peter Treiber Jr.’s potato truck, a local landmark parked permanently on County Route 48, doing little more, he thought, than drawing attention to his family’s farm.
Until he tried to sell his produce.
At a local greenmarket where he sells things like wild bergamot, honey and sunflowers, he had trouble striking a deal until, he said, he let his liberal leanings slip out in conversation with a customer.
“She said, ‘Oh, whew. You know, I wasn’t so sure about you, I thought you were some flag-waving something-or-other,’” Mr. Treiber, 32, recalled the woman saying and citing his potato truck display. “That’s why she was apprehensive of interacting with me.”
He paused: “It was a little sad to me. It shows the dichotomy of the country that a flag can mean that. That I had to think, ‘Do I need to reconsider having that out there?’”
Thirteen stripes, a dusting of stars, the American flag has had infinite meanings over the 244 years since the country began flying one. Raised at Iwo Jima, it was a symbol of victory. Lit on fire, it became a searing image of the protests against the Vietnam War. Ribboned around the twin towers on commemorative Sept. 11 lapel pins, it is a reminder of the threats against a delicate democracy.
Politicians of both parties have long sought to wrap themselves in the flag. But something may be changing: Today, flying the flag from the back of a pickup truck or over a lawn is increasingly seen as a clue, albeit an imperfect one, to a person’s political affiliation in a deeply divided nation.
Supporters of former President Donald J. Trump have embraced the flag so fervently — at his rallies, across conservative media and even during the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol — that many liberals like Mr. Treiber worry that the left has all but ceded the national emblem to the right.
What was once a unifying symbol — there is a star on it for each state, after all — is now alienating to some, its stripes now fault lines between people who kneel while “The Star-Spangled Banner” plays and those for whom not pledging allegiance is an affront.
And it has made the celebration of the Fourth of July, of patriotic bunting and cakes with blueberries and strawberries arranged into Old Glory, into another cleft in a country that seems no longer quite so indivisible, under a flag threatening to fray.
Mr. Treiber’s farm is in the town of Southold, a string of hamlets and a village on the North Fork of Long Island’s Suffolk County. The county chose Mr. Trump for president in 2020 by just 232 votes out of more than 770,000 cast.
Southold is predominantly white, with a small, longstanding Black population — families who reside mostly in the village, Greenport, at the edge of the salty Peconic Bay. There is also a significant Latino population, many of them undocumented, their labor underpinning the vineyards, farms and landscaping businesses that line the peninsula.
The pressure to draw partisan lines is fierce.
Just across the street from Treiber Farms, David Surozenski, 66, was weeding around the flagpole in his front yard a few days before the Fourth of July. Bouquets of miniature American flags flapped among the marigolds at his feet. Above him flew the flags of the Marines and the Coast Guard — he has children in each service — and at the top, an American flag.
A Republican, Mr. Surozenski said friends constantly pressured him to add Trump banners to his flag-and-flower garden, to fly “Make America Great Again” signs between his red, white and blue pinwheels whirling in the grass. But Mr. Surozenski declined — some of his eight children are Democrats.
“They said, ‘Dave, you’ve got to put Trump’s flag up!’ and I said, ‘No, that’s not happening,’” Mr. Surozenski recalled. “That’s not the way I was brought up. The American flag political? No.”
About 70 percent of Americans say the flag makes them feel proud, according to a recent survey by YouGov, a global public opinion and data research firm, and NBCLX, a mobile information platform. The sentiment was shared by about 80 percent of white Americans, just under 70 percent of Hispanic Americans and slightly less than 60 percent of Black Americans.
The divisions were deeper when it came to politics. While 66 percent of Republicans surveyed said they associated the flag with their own party, only 34 percent of Democrats said the same.
At its 1777 inception, the flag’s very design signified unity, the joining of the 13 colonies, said John R. Vile, a professor of political science and a dean at Middle Tennessee State University.
Politicizing the American flag is thus a perversion of its original intent, according to Professor Vile, who is also the author of “The American Flag: An Encyclopedia of the Stars and Stripes In U.S. History, Culture and Law.” He added, “We can’t allow that to happen.”
“It’s E Pluribus Unum — from many, one,” he said, citing the Latin motto on the Great Seal of the United States. “If the pluribus overwhelms the unum, then what do we have left?”
The sentiment of some conservatives is that a line was drawn when Colin Kaepernick, the former National Football League quarterback, set off a national movement protesting the shootings of Black men by police by taking a knee during the anthem in 2016. His kneeling protest, Mr. Kaepernick has said, still demonstrated respect for the flag, but others saw him as hijacking the flag for political purposes.
Maryneily Rodriguez, 33, said she believed that Mr. Trump’s most fervent supporters had done the same. Ms. Rodriguez, who was visiting Greenport with her fiancé during the Fourth of July weekend, said that she once regularly flew the flag at her home in Freeport, about 80 miles west on Long Island, taking it down only in winter for safekeeping. But about three years ago when spring came, Ms. Rodriguez, who is Black and a Democrat, left the flag in storage. It hasn’t come out since.
“It felt like it didn’t belong to me anymore,” she said.
John Hocker, a Republican who said he sometimes votes Democratic, also said he felt the flag had lost its meaning of unity. Instead of saluting the same flag as one people, he said, too many Americans were modifying it to become emblems of their own identities or belief systems, for instance with rainbow stripes, a symbol of gay pride, or blue stripes to show solidarity with the police.
He flies the flag — the red, white and blue one — from a towering crane several stories above the gravel piles of Latham Sand & Gravel, where he is a co-owner.
“There is a lot of history with this country, some that maybe people don’t like today, and some that people are being judged for today for what they did 300 years ago,” he said.
“It’s still our country and every good and bad thing made it our country,” Mr. Hocker said, glancing upward. “And that’s what that represents.”
The culture war he was alluding to was on full display a few miles away, hanging from the eaves of an empty roadside stand: “SAVE AMERICA” was printed along the flag’s top border, and below: “FIGHT SOCIALISM.”
And on a notice tacked nearby: “If this offends you LEAVE.”
At Rinconcito Hispano in Greenport, Ana Perez, 33, served up pupusas, stuffed masa flour patties from her native El Salvador, to customers who ordered exclusively in Spanish. Many of them are the laborers who clean the pools at the beach houses and scare the crows off the grapes at the wineries.
In 2017, as Mr. Trump began his crackdown on illegal immigration, village trustees unanimously adopted a resolution to declare Greenport “a welcoming community.” One resident opposing the measure at the meeting urged the public to call and report anyone who employed undocumented immigrants. Wearing an American flag on his chest, he held up a sign with a phone number.
Ms. Perez said she has an American flag T-shirt, too, and she intended to wear it on the holiday. “This symbolizes this country, and I live in this country,” she said, speaking in Spanish because she is not fluent in English. “This flag is for all.”
Strolling with her fiancé, Anthony Dipolito, Ms. Rodriguez took in the 1920 wooden carousel beside the marina in Greenport.
As she crossed through Mitchell Park, she was struck by the sight of a forest of American flags. It was not a prop for a political rally, but rather a peaceful “field of honor” installed by the Greenport Rotary Club.
Each flag represented not an ideological belief, according to the club, but a veteran or other citizen who had inspired or helped the community.
“I’ve always loved the American flag so much, and now seeing it by the carousel I felt happy again,” Ms. Rodriguez said, as all around her red, white, and blue cloth still waved. “And I haven’t felt that way about the flag in such a long time.”
AAABatteries
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
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I can guarantee you this will happen. Just like I guaranteed that Liberals wouldn’t stop at Confederate statues and would eventually go after Washington, Jefferson and Jackson. You’ll see. The NY f’ing Times is running a story on the flag being divisive.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
I love the "we'll never go that far" arguments when repeatedly they do, in fact, go that far - and further.
squistion
Footballguy
Going from being divisive to calls to ban the flag is not going to happen (again outside of an extreme minority fringe element).
And when they do go that far, their next argument is that it’s only coming from some fringe element.
squistion
Footballguy
No Democratic member of any legislature, either federal, state, or local will ever call to ban the flag. Ain't gonna happen. You can bank on it. Yes, someone out on the lunatic fringe of the left may do so, but no one will take them seriously.And when they do go that far, their next argument is that it’s only coming from some fringe element.
It generally never ends well when you make assurances about what other people will do. I am pretty sure some Democratic member of some legislature will make that terrible suggestion at some point. That doesn't mean we should blame all Democrats for this possible future sin.
squistion
Footballguy
In this case I feel pretty safe. Too bad we are no longer allowed by the mods to place bets on things of a political nature. Any Democrat who suggested this would not win renomination in their own party as I don't know of any Democrats who would be on board with banning the flag (as it plays into the worst false memes about Democrats not being patriotic, hating the flag and this country, etc.).
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I hear the phrase "that will never happen" or "nobody will ever do/say that" a lot in the PSF. It never really turns out well for the person making that assertion. I've been around long enough to know that something we find unbelievable today could in fact be very real tomorrow. I never thought I'd see a sitting president encourage his supporters to try to prevent the peaceful transfer of power, but yet it happened.
squistion
Footballguy
Actually I expected that, Trump said repeatedly before the election, that the only way he could lose would be if it was outcome was fixed, laying the groundwork for all the challenges that followed the November results.
kwille
Footballguy
Update on my upside down flag neighbor. Things were looking up as he had replaced his upside down American flag with a blue lives matter flag 2 weeks ago. But yesterday, on July 4, right back to good old upside down Old Glory.
The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
Guess the rest of us are doing it wrong.
The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
Guess the rest of us are doing it wrong.
Not a fan of that, but in fairness it’s subjective e as to whether or not the country is in dire distress.
kwille
Footballguy
And so it begins…
Black Lives Matter Utah chapter calls American flag 'symbol of hatred'
It’s coming folks. No doubt about it.
Black Lives Matter Utah chapter calls American flag 'symbol of hatred'
It’s coming folks. No doubt about it.
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't get it. Our country's history is riddled with flag issues. You can tell that by all the different laws we have around it over time. This isn't new. Nothing is coming. It's always been here.
rockaction
Footballguy
Why is anybody -- and by extension, why are you -- surprised by this, though? This is a Marxist, left-wing movement started by three "queer" academic-inspired women, who posted about trans rights as one of their first edicts and who claim, in their own words, to like "street theater" (read: riots) rather than traditional civil rights avenues to inspire the change they want to see.
Of course they hate the flag.
And if you haven't noticed a certain type of troglodyte flying the flag as cover these days in place of their preferred one, then you're also missing out. A bunch of right-wing yokels have taken it as their own and basically tried to corrupt it by flying it as synonymous to Trump support (witness also the Trump flag on the back of the pickup along with the American one). It works on both sides this time.
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squistion
Footballguy
No it isn't - not if you are saying that people are going to start calling for the flag to be banned (outside of a few fringe players on the extreme left).ekbeats said:
This is not that much different than what Colin Kapernick was saying when he started his flag kneeling protests - although expressed in stronger language than he used.
i wouldn’t necessarily call it a ban, but there will be calls to replace it. It’s already becoming fashionable to associate the flag with racism, oppression and right-wing hate. And I don’t consider it fringe if that sentiment is expressed on MSNBC. Why stop at statues, history books and the anthem? You’ll see, this will become a thing. We’ll revisit this and see who’s right.
The Commish
Footballguy
It's odd that we aren't up in arms over the flag ACTUALLY being replaced, on a federal building no less, in our Nation's Capitol. But we ARE worried about Macy Gray and her petition to change the flag. For me, both are disgusting. And again, this wouldn't be the first time people have petitioned to get the flag replaced. It IS the next time though. That isn't new and will likely be around forever.
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FairWarning
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
With what? You think there will ever be any widespread call for a redesign? Seriously.
And even if that were done (imagine the logistics involved in replacing every flag) the new flag would probably see the same number of protests (probably more since it would not be viewed by the right as not being the legitimate national flag)
Once again, it is not the flag itself that is being protested, it is the perceived racism that it symbolically represents in the minds of some people and that would continue with any new flag design.
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FairWarning
Footballguy
Would you have thought there was a outcry to tear down statues of people who were deemed racist? I’m not saying the flag gets changed, but there are strange times, and it only takes a little momentum.
squistion
Footballguy
For Columbus, yes, people have been complaining about his cruel and appalling treatment of indigenous people for over a decade. And given the political climate, can't say I was totally shocked to see statutes of Confederate war heroes also get toppled.
Statues are one thing, the American flag is an institution. Few Democratic politicians will be calling to replace the flag, as the political ads that would be run against them almost write themselves.
FairWarning
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Don’t move the goalposts. What we’ve been talking about is a US Congressman calling for the flag to be replaced. You said it would never happen. I say it will happen.
The Commish
Footballguy
What Marie fails to understand is it jammed in the ground like that is already "desecrating" (I'd use utterly disrespecting personally) the flag. The lack of self awareness in people is disheartening.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Not sure why ek thought this was funny, but it keeps circling back to people don't seem to understand proper display and maintenance of the flag. No, people shouldn't be ripping up other people's ####. However, people with flags stuck in the ground or on their boxers probably shouldn't be complaining too much about the disrespect of the flag either.The Commish said:
The Commish
Footballguy
Trolling.....it's all that's left short of realizing personal hypocrisy or maybe how arbitrary the line is he draws for what offends him when it comes to the flag. That people don't see flags like that in the ground as disrespectful yet #### themselves when someone kneels is, well, something.
On top of all that, this "becoming" a thing has been "becoming" a thing for hundreds of years. Our flag has always been a target of protest. It always will be.
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Because it’s ridiculous. You choose to object to a flag being placed in the ground because it technically doesn’t qualify as proper flag etiquette, when the sentiment behind it - that any normal human being understands - is one of pride. Meanwhile the kid’s action, which is clear disrespect and maybe even hatred for the flag, gets no commentary. It’s one of the most bizarre takes I’ve ever seen in this forum, and that’s saying something.
The Commish
Footballguy
Like I said....arbitrary lines abound. I love how now we have to look into their heart to determine "intent". Are you affording everyone that courtesy or just those on your side of your arbitrary line? I object because it's disrespectful and "ignorance" really is never a good defense. That actually makes it worse to me. And it's rather obvious that the kid's actions are just as terrible.
I don’t need to be a mind reader to know that a kid stopping his bike to pick up a mini flag on private property and throw it to the ground is harboring negative feelings toward the flag and what it represents. Unless it’s your kid, who would be objecting to the breach of formal flag protocol.
The Commish
Footballguy
If you don't mind....I'd appreciate it if you kept my children out of your bull#### arguments...TIA. Continue with your selective faux outrage towards the flag when you see it fit your agenda. I'll stick with respecting the flag under all circumstances.I don’t need to be a mind reader to know that a kid stopping his bike to pick up a mini flag on private property and throw it to the ground is harboring negative feelings toward the flag and what it represents. Unless it’s your kid, who would be objecting to the breach of formal flag protocol.
The Commish
Footballguy
Pathetic....but not surprising.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I’ll be honest - you and I normally see most things the same way but I’m confused on this one. While it may be disrespectful out of ignorance to display a flag that way there’s no way I believe that person is being more disrespectful than a person who tears a flag down. Now I give most kids an out because kids are dumb but it sounds to me like you would think if it had been the Mom doing that, that she and the person displaying the flag are equally wrong - I can’t get behind that.
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The Commish
Footballguy
I don't assign levels of disrespect in this case. It's either disrespectful or not. Levels of disrespect or picking and choosing the parts I "feel" are disrespectful is nothing more than an exercise in political
in my opinion. When you display our flag as a decoration in your yard with flags essentially laying on the ground, that's disrespectful. Our flag is not meant to be used as decoration. In this instance I hold the person responsible for using the flag as decoration and having it basically laying on the ground. The mother of the son I hold responsible for allowing the kid to be disrespectful by messing with other peoples' property and throwing the flag down on the ground. I don't compare the set of events to each other outside of pointing out they are disrespectful. They stand on their own.
Am I weird? Maybe. I was raised in a family who had soldiers through both world wars and almost all the conflicts we've been a part of since. Between my brother and I we have enough family flags to make a museum. We were taught the importance of the flag to our military from an early age and it's always stuck with me. So when I see people determining their "outrage" based on their feelings, it rubs me the wrong way. We have a code that tells us exactly how to treat our flag. Follow it. If you can't be bothered to learn the rules of doing that, then don't fly it.
squistion
Footballguy
I didn't move the goalposts. You did.
I said there would not be serious talk from any US elected official to BAN the flag, which means to outlaw it, to make it illegal to fly, not REPLACE it.
I noted in some post that I would not be surprised to see a call for the flag to be replaced. That however is not a realistic option as there would be the logistics of replacing all the flags, not to mention that about half the country would never accept a new flag and you would see people flying two flags as public events. So yeah, some have suggested a replacement flag as I suggested they would, but while that makes a nice discussion, it ain't gonna happen either.
