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Employees who refuse to vaccinate?


E-Z Glider

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I assume this is going to become a bigger issue moving forward, but what are employers to do with employees who refuse vaccination?

We do contract work for a manufacturer who recently sent out a letter saying that no one can enter their building after 11/1 if they aren't vaccinated. We have 2 employees who go there several times a week. One of them is refusing vaccination. He says he will get an "exemption certificate" (I'm not exactly sure on what grounds although I know he does have some sort of heart condition), but the letter we received from the manufacturer does not list any other options (exemptions/regular testing/etc). The letter simply says if you do not provide a vax card by 11/1, you are terminated. 

This guy was basically hired for the sole purpose of servicing this account. He's not irreplaceable. How do we handle this as an employer? I'm going to check with our corporate attorney, but thought Id check here too for some feedback. TIA

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15 minutes ago, belljr said:

Are you an at-will state?

 

14 minutes ago, Jaysus said:

Pennsylvania is an at-will state, right?

 

Yes, however, IF he has a legit "exemption" (health reason) would that be considered dismissing him due to a "disability"?

And Im still not sure if this means he'd be eligible for unemployment?

Honestly, Im not sure how this manufacturing company can put out a blanket rule like this with no exceptions? My wife works for J&J. Their rule is that you either provide proof of vax OR you get tested 3x a week and have to wear a mask.

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8 minutes ago, E-Z Glider said:

 

 

Yes, however, IF he has a legit "exemption" (health reason) would that be considered dismissing him due to a "disability"?

And Im still not sure if this means he'd be eligible for unemployment?

Honestly, Im not sure how this manufacturing company can put out a blanket rule like this with no exceptions? My wife works for J&J. Their rule is that you either provide proof of vax OR you get tested 3x a week and have to wear a mask.

I could be wrong but isn't eligibility for unemployment really up to you?

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16 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Really?

Dudes got a health condition and doesnt want to get a vax that normally takes years to get approval but was pushed through in a few months, so he loses his livelihood?

seems dumb 

Well, if he was hired specifically for the company's customer and won't be allowed into their building then what else can you do?  

 

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1 hour ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Really?

Dudes got a health condition and doesnt want to get a vax that normally takes years to get approval but was pushed through in a few months, so he loses his livelihood?

seems dumb 

Hi, welcome to the new America. Let me show you around....

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Based on Biden forcing all Government employees to get vaxxed I am assuming this is going to be a huge issue for all businesses in the near future.  Unfortunately this is too big of a political issue that it muddies the ability for people to actually think straight.  It's not a single answer thing but politics has made it a very divided situation.  It's very unfortunate.  

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3 hours ago, E-Z Glider said:

 an "exemption certificate" (I'm not exactly sure on what grounds although I know he does have some sort of heart condition)

I think a few weeks ago adverse effects to vaccines, and religious exemptions were recognized.  This week it's "don't let the door hit you on your way to $600 a week". Oh wait, you ain't getting that either 🤣

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3 hours ago, E-Z Glider said:

 

 

Yes, however, IF he has a legit "exemption" (health reason) would that be considered dismissing him due to a "disability"?

And Im still not sure if this means he'd be eligible for unemployment?

Honestly, Im not sure how this manufacturing company can put out a blanket rule like this with no exceptions? My wife works for J&J. Their rule is that you either provide proof of vax OR you get tested 3x a week and have to wear a mask.

Not clear on legalities of it all but it's pretty common with the larger companies we work with. We routinely have people going to multiple locations delivering equipment and if you're not vax'd, you ain't allowed in. Going to cause some wonderful lawsuits for years to come I'm sure.

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People going to law school right now will probably have a Covid related case right before they retire.

Man this is going to be a royal mess in so many different ways that people haven't even thought of yet.  

Nothing about this is clear, and despite what some posters have said in here, there are MANY questions to be answered.  In many of those cases we dont even know what the questions are yet.  The fallout is going to be a logistical nightmare.

 

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2 hours ago, Cowboysfan8 said:
3 hours ago, ChiefD said:

This one seems pretty cut and dried.

 

Dude needs to start looking for a new job.

Really?

Dudes got a health condition and doesnt want to get a vax that normally takes years to get approval but was pushed through in a few months, so he loses his livelihood?

seems dumb 

It also seems dumb for the government to force companies to allow anti-vaxxers to spread disease on their private property.

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1 hour ago, [scooter] said:

It also seems dumb for the government to force companies to allow anti-vaxxers to spread disease on their private property.

I’d agree with this if us vax’d folks weren’t able to spread it as well. Until then, it’s BS. 

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1 hour ago, Teef said:

I’d agree with this if us vax’d folks weren’t able to spread it as well. Until then, it’s BS. 

There is some truth to this, but the unvax folks are the ones clogging up the healthcare system.

However, the mandates are going to also cause strain on the healthcare system.

What a giant cluster F this tiny little virus as caused.  Couldnt have happened at a worse time either.  Everyone hates everyone and is polar opposite divided with each other on damn near every topic.

I am more and more feeling like these mandates are not going to produce the expected outcome they are intended to produce, and they will end up causing more harm than good.  Just a weird hunch.

I was predicting a civil war BEFORE mandates were being discussed.  Get your muskets ready.

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5 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

I was predicting a civil war BEFORE mandates were being discussed.  Get your muskets ready.

How is that gonna work exactly? Will we be issued blue or red uniforms? Will it be fought online with memes and histrionics? 

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20 hours ago, E-Z Glider said:

Yes, however, IF he has a legit "exemption" (health reason) would that be considered dismissing him due to a "disability"?

There is no “heart condition” that precludes being vaccinated.

The only strict contraindication is history of a severe reaction to the vaccine, or one of its components. Since he hasn’t been vaccinated and life-threatening reactions to the components of the vaccines are incredibly uncommon, chances are his “exemption” will be illegitimate.

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16 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

I was predicting a civil war BEFORE mandates were being discussed.  Get your muskets ready.

There won't be a civil war over this issue. If there is, then we've missed the boat on other topics that would be a much better hill to die on rather than a shot or two in the arm.

This will work itself out eventually, may take longer than we would like but if we leave Mother Nature to her druthers, this will resolve itself. Lot of people are going to sick, lot of people are going to die but horse to water analogy, etc.

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12 hours ago, Pip's Invitation said:

How is that gonna work exactly? Will we be issued blue or red uniforms? Will it be fought online with memes and histrionics? 

Keyboards and thousands of small protests, maybe a few dozen large protests, lot of arguing.   And it will last years.  

No uniforms cause nobody agrees with anyone else fully so lots of in-fighting

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1 hour ago, beer 30 said:

There won't be a civil war over this issue. If there is, then we've missed the boat on other topics that would be a much better hill to die on rather than a shot or two in the arm.

This will work itself out eventually, may take longer than we would like but if we leave Mother Nature to her druthers, this will resolve itself. Lot of people are going to sick, lot of people are going to die but horse to water analogy, etc.

Theres quite few things these days that would be part of the root cause of a civil war.  Covid related stuff is just part of it. 

Everyone hates everyone.  

Social media is the new musket right now.

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1 hour ago, ghostguy123 said:

Theres quite few things these days that would be part of the root cause of a civil war.  Covid related stuff is just part of it. 

Everyone hates everyone.  

Social media is the new musket right now.

I hate very few people these days, I'm trying to limit it because mostly I just don't care that much.

Agree with everything, especially the last part. We weren't prepared for it and it is being used as a weapon against us. Not US vs Russia kinda stuff although that's part of it but us (humanity) vs Tech. More Skynet vs people type stuff.

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Weekly testing?

23 hours ago, [scooter] said:

Also, "exemption certificate" is the new "Emotional Support Animal".

Still not as good as "safe spaces" on college campuses.

I've quit watching news, and I don't have social media accounts, except like this, and a couple other sports forums.  I see people on the streets I say hi.....I don't wonder about their politics, or vax status...... Happiness up, anxiety down......

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On 9/14/2021 at 10:54 AM, Cowboysfan8 said:

Really?

Dudes got a health condition and doesnt want to get a vax that normally takes years to get approval but was pushed through in a few months, so he loses his livelihood?

seems dumb 

 

Previously, the bulk of time for Vaccines was for development not approval.

It used to take 6 months to cross the country in a carriage... then it was a few days by car.... now it's a few hours by plane. Technology advances. 

These vaccines have now been through a full 3 phases of approval and are proven safe. 

So yeah... unless he has a very explicit medical reason to not have them (and not some bull#### blanket claim)... then yeah, he can go work elsewhere. 

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2 minutes ago, [icon] said:

 

Previously, the bulk of time for Vaccines was for development not approval.

It used to take 6 months to cross the country in a carriage... then it was a few days by car.... now it's a few hours by plane. Technology advances. 

These vaccines have now been through a full 3 phases of approval and are proven safe. 

So yeah... unless he has a very explicit medical reason to not have them (and not some bull#### blanket claim)... then yeah, he can go work elsewhere. 

So you’re suggesting that, because of technological advances we can know how a product impacts the human body over 5 years, 10 years, etc. in a year or so? Explain how advances in technology can do that. Crystal balls?  

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1 minute ago, CrossEyed2 said:

So you’re suggesting that, because of technological advances we can know how a product impacts the human body over 5 years, 10 years, etc. in a year or so? Explain how advances in technology can do that. Crystal balls?  

 

Show me a vaccine that went through 10 year safety trials before approval. 

 

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2 minutes ago, [icon] said:

 

Show me a vaccine that went through 10 year safety trials before approval. 

 

So I’m supposed to be convinced by the “we’ve always done it this way” argument? 
 

Look at all of the pharmaceutical products that are FDA approved and later pulled from the market…roughly 1 in 3. For some of us, that’s simply not a good enough track record to take a product prophylactically for protection against something that I have a less than 0.5% chance of dying from. 

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28 minutes ago, CrossEyed2 said:

So I’m supposed to be convinced by the “we’ve always done it this way” argument? 
 

Look at all of the pharmaceutical products that are FDA approved and later pulled from the market…roughly 1 in 3. For some of us, that’s simply not a good enough track record to take a product prophylactically for protection against something that I have a less than 0.5% chance of dying from. 


:lol: Lawd I don't even know why I'm bothering to engage you when you've not only donned a tinfoil hat, but the entire suit.

 

So NOW you've moved the goalposts from "Hasn't even been through full approval" to "We need to change the approval process"? Riiiiiight :D 

While I appreciate your desire to suddenly completely overhaul our vaccine approval process due to fear of "long term complications" with non-vaccine related products, I'm afraid anyone with a lick of actual experience on the topic would laugh you out of the room. 

If we want to stay on topic and talk about vaccines (You know, the thing everyone ELSE is talking about in here)I'd like to point out that there's never really been a vaccine that's presented significant long term side effects outside the first 6 week window.

We're approaching a full year, and have the largest data set of this type in human history with literally hundreds of millions of doses administered with minimal complications.

So yeah... you're wrong here. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

Theres quite few things these days that would be part of the root cause of a civil war.  Covid related stuff is just part of it. 

Everyone hates everyone.  

Social media is the new musket right now.

 

I know you are being hyperbolic but how exactly would this civil war work?  I have no clue which side I'm supposed to be on and who is on the other side. 

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From my understanding, a company’s stance on mandatory vaccination will likely be viewed as a company policy and essentially a term of employment. Similar to showing up to work on time, failing a drug test, completing your job duties, etc. Not adhering to company policies can result in termination with cause. Companies might be nice and let the people they let go collect unemployment, but from what I have seen, not getting vaccinated would not qualify someone for unemployment. 

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11 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

 

I know you are being hyperbolic but how exactly would this civil war work?  I have no clue which side I'm supposed to be on and who is on the other side. 

 

I'd wager the majority of today's Americans can barely change a tire or carry a 50lbs of gear more than a quarter mile. We're in no danger of a civil war. 

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1 minute ago, [icon] said:

 

I'd wager the majority of today's Americans can barely change a tire or carry a 50lbs of gear more than a quarter mile. We're in no danger of a civil war. 

Wait, people mean an actual war? Today’s battles are waged on social media and have way more media coverage than the boots on the ground skirmishes. 

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3 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

Keyboards and thousands of small protests, maybe a few dozen large protests, lot of arguing.   And it will last years.  

No uniforms cause nobody agrees with anyone else fully so lots of in-fighting

So there's a civil war going in the Political Forum?

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My wife's company just issued a policy.  It's very clear.  Mandatory vaccinations.  If you don't vaccinate by the date they set and do not have a medical exemption (Guillain-Barre or something like that), it will be viewed as an employee-driven voluntary separation of employment.  i.e. if you don't vaccinate, you effectively are resigning.  That means no severance, no vested bonuses, and technically, at least in our state, no unemployment.  It's pretty clear.

My company hasn't come out with that firm of a policy yet, but it's coming...

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27 minutes ago, [icon] said:


:lol: Lawd I don't even know why I'm bothering to engage you when you've not only donned a tinfoil hat, but the entire suit.

 

So NOW you've moved the goalposts from "Hasn't even been through full approval" to "We need to change the approval process"? Riiiiiight :D 

While I appreciate your desire to suddenly completely overhaul our vaccine approval process due to fear of "long term complications" with non-vaccine related products, I'm afraid anyone with a lick of actual experience on the topic would laugh you out of the room. 

If we want to stay on topic and talk about vaccines (You know, the thing everyone ELSE is talking about in here)I'd like to point out that there's never really been a vaccine that's presented significant long term side effects outside the first 6 week window. We're approaching a full year, and the largest data set in human history.

So yeah... you're wrong here. 

 

 

Dude’s all in on conspiracy theories. No idea which FB group or Tweet got him to drop out of religion but he’s joined the anti-vax cult with a vengeance. Definitely a personality flaw. He wants to question and be a thought leader but damn he really needs someone else to feed him a narrative or way of life to follow.

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7 minutes ago, Fat Nick said:

My wife's company just issued a policy.  It's very clear.  Mandatory vaccinations.  If you don't vaccinate by the date they set and do not have a medical exemption (Guillain-Barre or something like that), it will be viewed as an employee-driven voluntary separation of employment.  i.e. if you don't vaccinate, you effectively are resigning.  That means no severance, no vested bonuses, and technically, at least in our state, no unemployment.  It's pretty clear.

My company hasn't come out with that firm of a policy yet, but it's coming...

 

Did her company specifically call out GBS or did you include that one yourself?  I ask for two reasons:  1. I have heard from folks on here and more importantly my wife's doctor that GBS is not a reason to not get the vaccine UNLESS your GBS symptoms were the result of a previous vaccine.  2.  My wife, who had GBS as a child, did get the vaccine and has had no issues (both doses of Pfizer).  If they state otherwise I would be curious to know why as we plan to get the booster once needed/recommended by our physicians.

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49 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

 

Did her company specifically call out GBS or did you include that one yourself?  I ask for two reasons:  1. I have heard from folks on here and more importantly my wife's doctor that GBS is not a reason to not get the vaccine UNLESS your GBS symptoms were the result of a previous vaccine.  2.  My wife, who had GBS as a child, did get the vaccine and has had no issues (both doses of Pfizer).  If they state otherwise I would be curious to know why as we plan to get the booster once needed/recommended by our physicians.

 

GBS was specifically called out as a type of medical exemption, along with some others and an vague statement around other conditions that medically exclude you from being vaccinated.  It was clear that it had to be a medical exception, not a philosophical/religious/etc. one.  

Your points are interesting.  Personally, no GBS incidents in my family/wife's family, but one of our close friend's (we're their daughter's godparents) mother had GBS, NOT as a result of a vaccination, and she was told NOT to get it.  It's made life for them and the extended family very difficult as there is an expanded need to continue to quarantine and stay at home whenever they may see her.  It'd be interesting to see that view more widely publicized.  I've just always seen it simplistically as "Had GBS?  No vaccine for you!"

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Just now, Fat Nick said:

 

GBS was specifically called out as a type of medical exemption, along with some others and an vague statement around other conditions that medically exclude you from being vaccinated.  It was clear that it had to be a medical exception, not a philosophical/religious/etc. one.  

Your points are interesting.  Personally, no GBS incidents in my family/wife's family, but one of our close friend's (we're their daughter's godparents) mother had GBS, NOT as a result of a vaccination, and she was told NOT to get it.  It's made life for them and the extended family very difficult as there is an expanded need to continue to quarantine and stay at home whenever they may see her.  It'd be interesting to see that view more widely publicized.  I've just always seen it simplistically as "Had GBS?  No vaccine for you!"

 

Oh - I'll add that my wife works for one of the companies with a vaccine currently on the market - so to some extent, if you don't believe in the science, you really shouldn't work there...

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1 hour ago, stbugs said:

Dude’s all in on conspiracy theories. No idea which FB group or Tweet got him to drop out of religion but he’s joined the anti-vax cult with a vengeance. Definitely a personality flaw. He wants to question and be a thought leader but damn he really needs someone else to feed him a narrative or way of life to follow.

Interesting that you're arrogant enough to think you know everything about somebody you've never met or with whom you've ever had a meaningful conversation.

Talk about a personality flaw. :rolleyes:

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