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Calling Straight Liberal Men to Vote in a Poll (1 Viewer)

You are a straight and liberal minded individual. Assuming you met a transwoman, would you be open t

  • I believe transwomen are women and would date her if I liked her.

    Votes: 17 21.5%
  • I believe transwomen are women and would not date her.

    Votes: 33 41.8%
  • I do not believe transwomen are women and would date her if I liked her.

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • I do not believe transwomen are women and would not date her.

    Votes: 28 35.4%

  • Total voters
    79

Chadstroma

Footballguy
I have a simple question for straight liberal men. If you met a transwoman and you were single... assuming you liked her... would you date her? Let's say you go out and meet someone spending the whole night with them. Great conversation, there is a real connection, you are attracted to her... everything.... but then you find out (or she tells you) that she is trans. Do you date her or does that kill the potential for a romantic relationship?

I am asking our of curiosity of the thinking here for liberal men. As it seems the liberal position is that a transwoman is indeed a woman and should be treated as such when it comes to things like bathrooms, locker rooms, sports etc.

To clear up any potential confusion points that I can think of: I am talking about someone born as a male and then identifies themselves as a woman now. Whether they have had medical treatments or not is not important to me but if it is important to you to answer the question then feel free to explain but if you would date under any circumstances or conditions then the answer to the poll should be an affirmative. 

The reason I thought about this is scrolling through Facebook, I came across a Instagram thing which looked like an attractive woman wearing thigh high boots with long heels and a Jordan jersey that came down to act like a short dress on a basketball court doing a fade away jump shot. I was curious if this was a WNBA or college player and went into the profile. There were many posts and many were basketball themed in skimpy and/or tight clothing. I saw one post as I scrolled through that had writing of "that is a man" which obviously got my attention and I clicked on it (the only other video I watched other then the original) and in it she shows a few pictures of her in childhood (as a boy) and then some now (as a woman). Looking closely, you could tell (adams apple) but other than that, she looks like an attractive woman. I went back to the original post I saw and looked through the comments and there were tons of comments of men saying how hot she was etc which you normally see on posts like those with attractive women. My reaction was that I was a little grossed out that I thought she was attractive when I found out she was trans. My guess is that many (majority) of those comments were from straight guys that did not know they were making those comments about a transwoman. I wondered how they would react if they found out. Then that wondering lead me to the question above as I think many liberals these days hold the position that a transwoman is a woman and must be treated as such.... but does that mean for even a personal relationship? I am pretty confident most (nearly all?) conservative minded straight men would vote that they would not date a transwoman. I have no idea what the thinking process of a liberal is on this. I am guessing most gay men would most likely not be attracted to a transwoman and most bi-sexual oriented individuals it would not matter being they are attracted to both. 

I am not trying to make a point or want to debate or fight anyone, I am just curious as to what the thinking process is for a straight liberal man on this. 

 
I have a simple question for straight liberal men. If you met a transwoman and you were single... assuming you liked her... would you date her? Let's say you go out and meet someone spending the whole night with them. Great conversation, there is a real connection, you are attracted to her... everything.... but then you find out (or she tells you) that she is trans. Do you date her or does that kill the potential for a romantic relationship?

I am asking our of curiosity of the thinking here for liberal men. As it seems the liberal position is that a transwoman is indeed a woman and should be treated as such when it comes to things like bathrooms, locker rooms, sports etc.

To clear up any potential confusion points that I can think of: I am talking about someone born as a male and then identifies themselves as a woman now. Whether they have had medical treatments or not is not important to me but if it is important to you to answer the question then feel free to explain but if you would date under any circumstances or conditions then the answer to the poll should be an affirmative. 

The reason I thought about this is scrolling through Facebook, I came across a Instagram thing which looked like an attractive woman wearing thigh high boots with long heels and a Jordan jersey that came down to act like a short dress on a basketball court doing a fade away jump shot. I was curious if this was a WNBA or college player and went into the profile. There were many posts and many were basketball themed in skimpy and/or tight clothing. I saw one post as I scrolled through that had writing of "that is a man" which obviously got my attention and I clicked on it (the only other video I watched other then the original) and in it she shows a few pictures of her in childhood (as a boy) and then some now (as a woman). Looking closely, you could tell (adams apple) but other than that, she looks like an attractive woman. I went back to the original post I saw and looked through the comments and there were tons of comments of men saying how hot she was etc which you normally see on posts like those with attractive women. My reaction was that I was a little grossed out that I thought she was attractive when I found out she was trans. My guess is that many (majority) of those comments were from straight guys that did not know they were making those comments about a transwoman. I wondered how they would react if they found out. Then that wondering lead me to the question above as I think many liberals these days hold the position that a transwoman is a woman and must be treated as such.... but does that mean for even a personal relationship? I am pretty confident most (nearly all?) conservative minded straight men would vote that they would not date a transwoman. I have no idea what the thinking process of a liberal is on this. I am guessing most gay men would most likely not be attracted to a transwoman and most bi-sexual oriented individuals it would not matter being they are attracted to both. 

I am not trying to make a point or want to debate or fight anyone, I am just curious as to what the thinking process is for a straight liberal man on this. 


I would think it might be important to you unless you are open to adding somethings to your repertoire.  If you are open to that then you probably wouldn't fit the straight category.

 
I would think it might be important to you unless you are open to adding somethings to your repertoire.  If you are open to that then you probably wouldn't fit the straight category.
It is not important to me because I would not date them no matter whay medical treatments they have received or have not received. It is an automatic "no thank you". Now, if some liberal straight men have a different take on that then as I said in the post, they can explain here. 

 
:blackdot: Interested to see our Liberal friends position here, good post Chad. 


If they are open to it, then they aren't straight.  If they aren't, then they are anti-trans oppressors belonging to the patriarchy.  In my opinion, of course.

I'd also love to see the answers but not a single one of them has even bothered to show up.  Which is ironic since you can't get them to STOP posting in the official trans thread.  :shrug:

Talk the talk but can't walk the walk?

 
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:lol:   Nobody wants to go?

I will throw myself out there and answer honestly.   My initial response is 100% it would depend on surgery, how long into the process it is.   I don't imagine myself attracted to somebody at the early stages, but like in your example I could see having attraction to somebody who has finished the process.    I thought my answer would be a straight no, but as I thought about it, there have been all sorts of women I've been attracted to and would date after knowing them awhile.   I would imagine that trans woman would be similar in that there is a chance I would be attracted enough after time to do so.     

All that said, this is 100% theory, as to my knowledge I haven't been around a trans woman besides interacting as a customer.  

 
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:lol:   Nobody wants to go?

I will throw myself out there and answer honestly.   My initial response is 100% it would depend on surgery, how long into the process it is.   I don't imagine myself attracted to somebody at the early stages, but like in your example I could see having attraction to somebody who has finished the process.    I thought my answer would be a straight no, but as I thought about it, there have been all sorts of women I've been attracted to and would date after knowing them awhile.   I would imagine that trans woman would be similar.    

All that said, this is 100% theory, as to my knowledge I haven't been around a trans woman besides interacting as a customer.  
Thanks for taking the courage to answer. I am sure it is not an easy question to answer for those on the left. 

Is it possible more are not because they fear the answer either way... questioning their manhood or hetero status (for lack of a better terms that I can think of) or they are transphobe (is that the right term?) If they say no? Is it fearing the Wokestapo if the answer "wrong"? Since you are the only one to so far answer... I guess I have to ask you.  :shrug:

 
Liberal minded straight guy here

I would not date her and freely admit it is my hang up that makes it so. Does not change my view that they are women but my mind would hold me back.  

 
Liberal minded straight guy here

I would not date her and freely admit it is my hang up that makes it so. Does not change my view that they are women but my mind would hold me back.  


When you say "hang up", you mean your transphobia and hate?  Because that is what they'll refer to it as if you won't date them.

I do find it odd that you consider heterosexuality a "hang up".  :shrug:

 
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I honestly don't know the answer. I've given this some quick thought here and the best response I can give is this:

There would need to be 100% above the board honesty from her right from the first moment of meeting her. I value that trait above all others when considering a relationship with another. Then, I could work through my own feelings and "hangups" in a positive and hopefully enriching manor. Choosing to date her would depend on many factors, not just one. I'd want to get to know her a little as a friend first, without the "we're dating" stereotypical definition. I don't think I'd rule it out immediately..... <----although I'm really unsure about this statement.....I might be giving myself credit where it's completely not due. I've never been in such a situation so I'm speculating with great hope that I'd be able to act that way.

I'm not going to vote.

 
Thanks for taking the courage to answer. I am sure it is not an easy question to answer for those on the left. 

Is it possible more are not because they fear the answer either way... questioning their manhood or hetero status (for lack of a better terms that I can think of) or they are transphobe (is that the right term?) If they say no? Is it fearing the Wokestapo if the answer "wrong"? Since you are the only one to so far answer... I guess I have to ask you.  :shrug:
I answered because I am more left leaning socially.  

I am sure that could be a factor.   I debated on answering or not for a bit too.    IMO this is a way more forgiving group than most, but I could 100% see a similar post on FB getting some "anti-trans" posts - which would be funny considering my posts in the other threads about trans.    But like I said - a good part of the hesitation is also that I have 0 clue since I haven't spent more than a couple minutes of time around a trans woman.  

Since I am being honest I will also throw out there that a mental hurdle will also be if I knew the person pre and post transition, or just post.   I think it would be harder if I knew them before, but still not saying it's impossible.  

 
So, just to be clear, being heterosexual is a "hang up" now and something people need to "work thru"?  Wut?    :lol:

This is absurd on so many levels.  

 
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When you say "hang up", you mean your transphobia?  Because that is what they'll refer to you as if you won't date them.
No, not transphobia, I am happy for anyone who has the courage to show themselves as they see themselves and am very comfortable around trans folks. Its my inability to put aside a pretty lady was once a guy that would prevent me from commiting to getting as close to someone as dating. 

 
If I'm a heterosexual male, I date females (sex).  So a male (sex) who was trans and ID'd as a woman (gender) isn't going to be very interesting as a partner no matter how eye catching they are at first. 

And I personally don't think that kind of surgery would be very convincing when push came to shove (ahem), so I think I'm pretty safe in saying that I'd move on.  I'm not down with plastic surgery in general though, so YMMV.

I'd still treat her with respect though.

 
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I honestly don't know the answer. I've given this some quick thought here and the best response I can give is this:

There would need to be 100% above the board honesty from her right from the first moment of meeting her. I value that trait above all others when considering a relationship with another. Then, I could work through my own feelings and "hangups" in a positive and hopefully enriching manor. Choosing to date her would depend on many factors, not just one. I'd want to get to know her a little as a friend first, without the "we're dating" stereotypical definition. I don't think I'd rule it out immediately..... <----although I'm really unsure about this statement.....I might be giving myself credit where it's completely not due. I've never been in such a situation so I'm speculating with great hope that I'd be able to act that way.

I'm not going to vote.
I was just thinking about this.   I wonder what protocol is for something like this.  I would imagine it's more likely to be stated immediately if it's pre-surgery, but maybe not if it's post surgery?   0 clue, but like you said, I think finding out later might be another bump in the road.  

 
I was just thinking about this.   I wonder what protocol is for something like this.  I would imagine it's more likely to be stated immediately if it's pre-surgery, but maybe not if it's post surgery?   0 clue, but like you said, I think finding out later might be another bump in the road.  


You don't think telling someone you were born a dude is NOT something you need to be up front about?  You're talking about insulting people on a level that going to get people murdered.

 
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I was just thinking about this.   I wonder what protocol is for something like this.  I would imagine it's more likely to be stated immediately if it's pre-surgery, but maybe not if it's post surgery?   0 clue, but like you said, I think finding out later might be another bump in the road.  
watch the crying game

 
cool

I suggested it because that is a main theme
It's been one I thought about recently as I've been rewatching 90s movies.   I remember 0 about the movie besides the reveal, and have been wondering wtf the rest of the movie was actually about.  :lol:  

 
It's been one I thought about recently as I've been rewatching 90s movies.   I remember 0 about the movie besides the reveal, and have been wondering wtf the rest of the movie was actually about.  :lol:  
I hear ya. I know its somethig re: the IRA and Forrest Whitaker has a small but key roll but other than that and the reveal I got bupkis. 

 
I’ll call someone whatever they ask.

I would not date a transgender woman who hasn’t had surgery and do not see a scenario where I would after surgery either. Also don’t really know much about how this process works.

 
I honestly don't know the answer. I've given this some quick thought here and the best response I can give is this:

There would need to be 100% above the board honesty from her right from the first moment of meeting her. I value that trait above all others when considering a relationship with another. Then, I could work through my own feelings and "hangups" in a positive and hopefully enriching manor. Choosing to date her would depend on many factors, not just one. I'd want to get to know her a little as a friend first, without the "we're dating" stereotypical definition. I don't think I'd rule it out immediately..... <----although I'm really unsure about this statement.....I might be giving myself credit where it's completely not due. I've never been in such a situation so I'm speculating with great hope that I'd be able to act that way.

I'm not going to vote.
So... let's dive into that a bit...

Do you believe transwomen are women? 

Do you believe all trans need to tell people that they are trans right away? 

 
I haven’t spent a lot of time reading about or looking at photos of post-op transgendered women. I’d imagine it’s a difficult process.  
No amount of surgery changes a man to a woman biologically.

So if you do decide to go ahead and do this, just know that you basically would be admitting you're homosexual.

 
You don't think telling someone you were born a dude is NOT something you need to be up front about?  You're talking about insulting people on a level that going to get people murdered.
There was that college football player who killed someone just a fee months ago... but apparently they has some sexual interaction before he found out... I am guessing oral because otherwise, how would you not know?

 
There was that college football player who killed someone just a fee months ago... but apparently they has some sexual interaction before he found out... I am guessing oral because otherwise, how would you not know?
Correct. This whole trans thing is scary for Trans people because I can see a lot of them getting murdered if they are not upfront about who they are.

Think about this: trans people would be tricking heterosexual people into doing homosexual acts.  If you don't think that will result in people getting murdered then I would say you haven't study human history or you just don't know people in general. Not you personally, of course, but just in general.

This is a huge issue and I would even consider charges against trans people for doing this.

 
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No amount of surgery changes a man to a woman biologically.

So if you do decide to go ahead and do this, just know that you basically would be admitting you're homosexual.
I suppose there is something to be said there.

However, if a person had breasts, surgery to have a vagina, hormone treatments and told you they were a woman then I think you would be with a woman at that point.

Doesn’t really matter to me in any case. 

 
So... let's dive into that a bit...

Do you believe transwomen are women? 

Do you believe all trans need to tell people that they are trans right away? 
I don't know. I believe it would depend on the individual. In other words, I believe I'd be willing to listen to that person and hear their own story.

So... let's dive into that a bit...

Do you believe transwomen are women? 

Do you believe all trans need to tell people that they are trans right away? 
No. But in the context of your OP, if she approached me with the intent of getting to know me better and possibly date me, yes. 

 
I suppose there is something to be said there.

However, if a person had breasts, surgery to have a vagina, hormone treatments and told you they were a woman then I think you would be with a woman at that point.

Doesn’t really matter to me in any case. 
Sure, that's fine. You have your opinion. I have mine. I disagree with yours because no amount of surgery makes a man a woman.

 
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Voted they are women, and no I would not date.  

Sex is important to me and I'm not convinced surgery can make the real deal. I also would not date anyone who was not interested in sex (due to trauma, pain, lack of libido, etc).  Nor would I date people on the basis of political views, but that's for another thread lol.

That being said, I would not think less of anyone who would have a relationship with a transexual.  Human sexuality can be fluid & non-binary, even including asexual.  What happens in the bedroom ain't no business of mine.

 
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As a single guy pretty close to NYC, I see quite a few trans women pop up on dating aps. I would say I spot 85-90% of them right away (before scrolling to the part of their profile where they state that they are trans) Maybe 5-10% you can tell something is a little off and then get confirmation. Maybe 5% "fool me". (again...until I see it stated in their profile.)

I certainly dont consider myself a transphobe (I certainly dont "hate" trans people and I feel like they should have all the same rights and protections as everyone else). But I'd be lying if I said that trans people dont make me feel a little uncomfortable.  I think its the same feeling I used to feel when I saw a gay couple 20-25 years ago (when I was a teenager).  Now....I couldn't care less.  But teenage me was probably "grossed out" seeing 2 men together.  I've evolved since then. Maybe one day I'll feel the same about trans people. I dont know.

I'm sure I'd get absolutely crucified if I put this on social media or otherwise made it known in the real world....but no....I dont believe Trans women are REALLY women.  I think they're simply men who have taken hormones and/or otherwise altered their appearance (medically or otherwise) to appear to be a woman. They deserve to live their life the way they want (although I do feel they have an obligation to reveal they are trans to any potential sexual partner)  and I sympathize with the struggle that most of them go through during their journey, but I feel how I feel.   Its an opinion I struggle with....because I consider myself a very tolerant person. (and definitely liberal socially) I have several close gay friends, gay colleagues that I really like, gay family members, etc. But that's my opinion on the subject.

Based on that opinion...as a straight man...I would not date a trans woman.

I do find this a very interesting topic. One of my best friends dated a girl all through college. They basically met a week after we got there, were together nearly the entire time and eventually got married a few years after we graduated.  A few years after that, she met a trans-woman (at the water park of all places)  and eventually left my buddy for her.  It was a fairly big shock to all of us (although you could see that their relationship had some issues) and raised a lot of interesting questions. My friend is an objectively good looking dude. Late 30's but looks about 25 still.  Always got a lot of attention from women. The trans-woman his wife left him for was fairly obviously trans (at least to our group).  For us, it raised the question about the now ex-wife's sexuality. She now obviously identifies as a lesbian, even though the person she is with was born a man and still looks rather "manish" (for lack of a better term).  So, was she ever really straight or did she just go for the objectively good looking guy because its what she was conditioned to do growing up? (only realizing what she really wanted once she got older and became a more developed person).  I honestly dont know, but the conversation fascinates me.

 
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I don't know. I believe it would depend on the individual. In other words, I believe I'd be willing to listen to that person and hear their own story.

No. But in the context of your OP, if she approached me with the intent of getting to know me better and possibly date me, yes. 
Let's say you meet and talk like people do and as you talk a mutual attraction begins... at whay point do you think they are suppose to tell you in order to be truthful? Isn't the general liberal thinking now is that a transwoman is a woman? So... isn't "her truth" (I passionately hate that term) being "I am a woman"? Isn't telling you to be "truthful" a sort of lie? Or is she really not a woman and thus needs to be truthful about it?

 
As a single guy pretty close to NYC, I see quite a few trans women pop up on dating aps. I would say I spot 85-90% of them right away (before scrolling to the part of their profile where they state that they are trans) Maybe 5-10% you can tell something is a little off and then get confirmation. Maybe 5% "fool me". (again...until I see it stated in their profile.)

I certainly dont consider myself a transphobe (I certainly dont "hate" trans people and I feel like they should have all the same rights and protections as everyone else). But I'd be lying if I said that trans people dont make me feel a little uncomfortable.  I think its the same feeling I used to feel when I saw a gay couple 20-25 years ago (when I was a teenager).  Now....I couldn't care less.  But teenage me was probably "grossed out" seeing 2 men together.  I've evolved since then. Maybe one day I'll feel the same about trans people. I dont know.

I'm sure I'd get absolutely crucified if I put this on social media or otherwise made it known in the real world....but no....I dont believe Trans women are REALLY women.  I think they're simply men who have taken hormones and/or otherwise altered their appearance (medically or otherwise) to appear to be a woman. They deserve to live their life the way they want (although I do feel they have an obligation to reveal they are trans to any potential sexual partner)  and I sympathize with the struggle that most of them go through during their journey, but I feel how I feel.   Its an opinion I struggle with....because I consider myself a very tolerant person. (and definitely liberal socially) I have several close gay friends, gay colleagues that I really like, gay family members, etc. But that's my opinion on the subject.

Based on that opinion...as a straight man...I would not date a trans woman.

I do find this a very interesting topic. One of my best friends dated a girl all through college. They basically met a week after we got there, were together nearly the entire time and eventually got married a few years after we graduated.  A few years after that, she met a trans-woman (at the water park of all places)  and eventually left my buddy for her.  It was a fairly big shock to all of us (although you could see that their relationship had some issues) and raised a lot of interesting questions. My friend is an objectively good looking dude. Late 30's but looks about 25 still.  Always got a lot of attention from women. The trans-woman his wife left him for was fairly obviously trans (at least to our group).  For us, it raised the question about the now ex-wife's sexuality. She now obviously identifies as a lesbian, even though the person she is with was born a man and still looks rather "manish" (for lack of a better term).  So, was she ever really straight or did she just go for the objectively good looking guy because its what she was conditioned to do growing up? (only realizing what she really wanted once she got older and became a more developed person).  I honestly dont know, but the conversation fascinates me.
Your best friends ex... her curent partner was a woman and is now man or vice versa? 

 
Your best friends ex... her curent partner was a woman and is now man or vice versa? 


Born a man (and fathered 2 children, who now live with them). My understanding is she is now a post-op trans woman.

They now have a 3rd child. My friend's ex carried her. I'm guessing they used a donor, as I believe the trans woman has been that way for a while and I can't imagine she froze sperm or anything.  But not sure, as we haven't really spoken since the break-up. (still FB friends though)

 
So... let's dive into that a bit...

Do you believe transwomen are women? 

Do you believe all trans need to tell people that they are trans right away? 


No, I think they are transwomen.  Instead of just saying Brady and Evans are offensive, not defense, I identify them as QB and WR on offense.

No unless they are pursuing a personal relationship.

 
So... let's dive into that a bit...

Do you believe transwomen are women? 

Do you believe all trans need to tell people that they are trans right away? 



Changing the concept of “woman” will cause unintended harms

Some philosophers do “conceptual analysis”: roughly, tracking our current concept use and its implications. Let’s focus on the sentence “trans women are women”....In the same vein, in recent philosophical discussion a different focus has emerged: “conceptual engineering”, or deliberate conceptual change, towards good social ends....One problem is that, since “woman” and “female” are interchangeable in many people’s minds, we’re likely to lose a secure understanding of the related concept “female”. (Indeed, some activists advocate stretching this concept to include trans women, too.) Yet the existing concept is in good order. It designates a person with XX chromosomes, and for whom ovaries, womb, vagina and so on are a statistical norm, even if some females are born without some of these, or lose one or more later. ...The category “female” is also important for understanding the particular challenges its members face, as such. These include a heightened vulnerability to rape, sexual assault, voyeurism and exhibitionism; to sexual harassment; to domestic violence; to certain cancers; to anorexia and self-harm; and so on....Even more pressingly, if we lose a working concept of “female” in the way indicated, self-declared trans women (males) may well eventually gain unrestricted access to protected spaces originally introduced to shield females from sexual violence from males. We are already seeing the erosion of these, as companies and charities open formerly female-only spaces such as changing rooms, shared accommodation, swimming ponds, hospital wards, and prisons, to everyone out of a desire not to appear transphobic... In sum, when deciding what the law should say, or even what our concepts should be, there are more things to consider than some trans activists would have you believe...

by KATHLEEN STOCK Jul 6th 2018

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/06/changing-the-concept-of-woman-will-cause-unintended-harms

****

To qualify for the relative distinctions in this thread that you are asking for, I'm a strictly heterosexual man who carries, like many Conservatives do, some clear and long held positions that would be considered "liberal" social policy. ( In the PSF, at least to the regular posters, I might actually be a moderate, because the radical left here have apparently driven off most of the moderates and traditional liberals. I've also been called a libertarian here and some have said I carry some heavy UBI concepts in some areas that might categorize me as a part time Progressive)

I don't believe transwomen are "female"

My viewpoint is that's the more critical distinction here. The power brokers from the LGBT community and their spin control want to push "woman" when their end goal is to make "woman" and "female" interchangeable. The leverage point is that out of every 100 LGBT who register to vote, 93 make it to the booth for election day. Roughly 79 percent, AT MINIMUM, will vote for the Democratic Party. The 2020 general cycle showed that up to 25 percent of the total LGBT vote were first time voters. The hard push to drive wide spread social acceptance of the LGBT community and their positions is to ensure the "Feeder System", i.e. all levels of education, produces future voters by indoctrinating children with a clear liberal mindset built on shame ( i.e. "I must be a racist and a bigot by default by being born white")

Establishment Democrats don't control Big Education on the ground floor, it's actually the Progressives that do. What's interesting is that much of the push back through back channels and political influence is not actually coming from the Conservative base. It's from Big Finance. There are elements of the Democratic Party, and a lot of Progressives, that are accused of carrying an Anti-Semetic stance. One of the worst kept secrets in media optics was Jack Dorsey's view of the Jewish establishment ( there was a reason he was ousted) and that didn't help that some platforms were essentially weaponized in this regard. In a bizarre circle that shows truth is stranger than fiction, if some political elements spent less time hating Jews, they'd get more pure logistical support for the LGBT community.

I don't find it relevant if a transwoman wants to declare herself a "woman" or not. "Not relevant" is not an assessment of your discussion pathway of course, because I think this is an interesting discussion and I find you to be an interesting poster ( You posted a few things about servant based leadership years ago I thought had good depth to it), but not relevant in terms of overall practical motive.

Ellen/Eliot Page was born a woman. He/She spent nearly his/her entire life in the public eye and as a Hollywood celebrity. He/She decided to determine that he/she should be considered a "queer white male" ( his/her words, not mine) despite not undergoing any type of changes to his/her status as a "female" ( as of current )  He's/She's had surgery to change his/her "top" but not his/her overall plumbing per se. My viewpoint is it doesn't matter what he/she calls himself/herself, he/she can call himself/herself what he/she likes, but biologically he/she's still a "female".

Now it stands to reason one of the cancel culture wokies here will slam fist the Report Button accusing me a "dead naming", however that would require removing the context that

1) This person spent nearly their entire life as a high profile Hollywood celebrity, demanding an immediate change to to a new distinction without any type of transition point is unreasonable. It's just prowling for some way to attack and cancel someone. It's cheap and dirty.

2) On the show, The Umbrella Academy, Page started the show as a lesbian character, not someone defined as a "queer white male", thus Page is guilty of the kind of cultural/gender appropriation that has been levied on other working actors/actresses. Except no one will say it since Page gets full immunity since no one wants to be cancelled for saying the truth - If you are in the "club", the rules for the rest don't apply. When that becomes the standard, it's no longer about equality, it becomes about shifting inequality in a different more profitable direction.

If a transwoman wants to tell the entire world his/her business then that's on them. But you'll find an unsettling reality that many of the more high profile transitions were done in the media that closely aligns to basic shock marketing tactics. What you say can be weaponized by how you say it and where you say and in what context.

The argument if a transwoman is a "woman" is bait for an ambush. Not by you but by the media spin of the LGBT community lobbyists.  They want people to walk in, get bracketed and then get carpet bombed by structured identity politics.

What matters is a transwoman is not a "female"

 
Born a man (and fathered 2 children, who now live with them). My understanding is she is now a post-op trans woman.

They now have a 3rd child. My friend's ex carried her. I'm guessing they used a donor, as I believe the trans woman has been that way for a while and I can't imagine she froze sperm or anything.  But not sure, as we haven't really spoken since the break-up. (still FB friends though)
This makes my head hurt. So confusing in so many ways. 

 
Changing the concept of “woman” will cause unintended harms

Some philosophers do “conceptual analysis”: roughly, tracking our current concept use and its implications. Let’s focus on the sentence “trans women are women”....In the same vein, in recent philosophical discussion a different focus has emerged: “conceptual engineering”, or deliberate conceptual change, towards good social ends....One problem is that, since “woman” and “female” are interchangeable in many people’s minds, we’re likely to lose a secure understanding of the related concept “female”. (Indeed, some activists advocate stretching this concept to include trans women, too.) Yet the existing concept is in good order. It designates a person with XX chromosomes, and for whom ovaries, womb, vagina and so on are a statistical norm, even if some females are born without some of these, or lose one or more later. ...The category “female” is also important for understanding the particular challenges its members face, as such. These include a heightened vulnerability to rape, sexual assault, voyeurism and exhibitionism; to sexual harassment; to domestic violence; to certain cancers; to anorexia and self-harm; and so on....Even more pressingly, if we lose a working concept of “female” in the way indicated, self-declared trans women (males) may well eventually gain unrestricted access to protected spaces originally introduced to shield females from sexual violence from males. We are already seeing the erosion of these, as companies and charities open formerly female-only spaces such as changing rooms, shared accommodation, swimming ponds, hospital wards, and prisons, to everyone out of a desire not to appear transphobic... In sum, when deciding what the law should say, or even what our concepts should be, there are more things to consider than some trans activists would have you believe...

by KATHLEEN STOCK Jul 6th 2018

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/06/changing-the-concept-of-woman-will-cause-unintended-harms

****

To qualify for the relative distinctions in this thread that you are asking for, I'm a strictly heterosexual man who carries, like many Conservatives do, some clear and long held positions that would be considered "liberal" social policy. ( In the PSF, at least to the regular posters, I might actually be a moderate, because the radical left here have apparently driven off most of the moderates and traditional liberals. I've also been called a libertarian here and some have said I carry some heavy UBI concepts in some areas that might categorize me as a part time Progressive)

I don't believe transwomen are "female"

My viewpoint is that's the more critical distinction here. The power brokers from the LGBT community and their spin control want to push "woman" when their end goal is to make "woman" and "female" interchangeable. The leverage point is that out of every 100 LGBT who register to vote, 93 make it to the booth for election day. Roughly 79 percent, AT MINIMUM, will vote for the Democratic Party. The 2020 general cycle showed that up to 25 percent of the total LGBT vote were first time voters. The hard push to drive wide spread social acceptance of the LGBT community and their positions is to ensure the "Feeder System", i.e. all levels of education, produces future voters by indoctrinating children with a clear liberal mindset built on shame ( i.e. "I must be a racist and a bigot by default by being born white")

Establishment Democrats don't control Big Education on the ground floor, it's actually the Progressives that do. What's interesting is that much of the push back through back channels and political influence is not actually coming from the Conservative base. It's from Big Finance. There are elements of the Democratic Party, and a lot of Progressives, that are accused of carrying an Anti-Semetic stance. One of the worst kept secrets in media optics was Jack Dorsey's view of the Jewish establishment ( there was a reason he was ousted) and that didn't help that some platforms were essentially weaponized in this regard. In a bizarre circle that shows truth is stranger than fiction, if some political elements spent less time hating Jews, they'd get more pure logistical support for the LGBT community.

I don't find it relevant if a transwoman wants to declare herself a "woman" or not. "Not relevant" is not an assessment of your discussion pathway of course, because I think this is an interesting discussion and I find you to be an interesting poster ( You posted a few things about servant based leadership years ago I thought had good depth to it), but not relevant in terms of overall practical motive.

Ellen/Eliot Page was born a woman. He/She spent nearly his/her entire life in the public eye and as a Hollywood celebrity. He/She decided to determine that he/she should be considered a "queer white male" ( his/her words, not mine) despite not undergoing any type of changes to his/her status as a "female" ( as of current )  He's/She's had surgery to change his/her "top" but not his/her overall plumbing per se. My viewpoint is it doesn't matter what he/she calls himself/herself, he/she can call himself/herself what he/she likes, but biologically he/she's still a "female".

Now it stands to reason one of the cancel culture wokies here will slam fist the Report Button accusing me a "dead naming", however that would require removing the context that

1) This person spent nearly their entire life as a high profile Hollywood celebrity, demanding an immediate change to to a new distinction without any type of transition point is unreasonable. It's just prowling for some way to attack and cancel someone. It's cheap and dirty.

2) On the show, The Umbrella Academy, Page started the show as a lesbian character, not someone defined as a "queer white male", thus Page is guilty of the kind of cultural/gender appropriation that has been levied on other working actors/actresses. Except no one will say it since Page gets full immunity since no one wants to be cancelled for saying the truth - If you are in the "club", the rules for the rest don't apply. When that becomes the standard, it's no longer about equality, it becomes about shifting inequality in a different more profitable direction.

If a transwoman wants to tell the entire world his/her business then that's on them. But you'll find an unsettling reality that many of the more high profile transitions were done in the media that closely aligns to basic shock marketing tactics. What you say can be weaponized by how you say it and where you say and in what context.

The argument if a transwoman is a "woman" is bait for an ambush. Not by you but by the media spin of the LGBT community lobbyists.  They want people to walk in, get bracketed and then get carpet bombed by structured identity politics.

What matters is a transwoman is not a "female"
Interesting post. 

The interesting aspect to all of this is the Wokestapo (an obvious reference to the Geheime Staatspolizei but is actually not a very good description as they do not act as a secret police force but more like a mob which would mean the Sturmabteilung aka brownshirts is a better analogy to how they act and operate but the problem with that is you can't make a clever little word mash with it as much). How people are so scared of the woke cancel culture mob. How many self identified liberals have made comment in one form or another about how this discussion would open them up to being attacked if in a different forum. I find this topic interesting as for me, being a conservative and holding the view that gender is genetic born assignment and however you decide to live does not change that. In terms of the public area, I am happy for them to live their lives as they see fit but do have strong concerns such as the above article pointing out the female only spaces being infringed upon. In my own life, an example of this is being the father of a 10 year old girl. When we are in public and she needs to go the bathroom, I am powerless to protect her as I can not go in the bathroom to clear it or just be in there (versus my sons, 6 and 8, where I go in with them). My wife's cousin has a daughter (transwoman) who transitioned in H.S. and is now in college. I want her to be happy (though I am convinced she will struggle though life) but so much of what is being pushed seems to infringe upon women (or females following your post). 

That post I fell upon made me think about how the left has been pushing the transwoman is a woman but then I think most straight males, perhaps even those who agree with that, would then put that to the test, so to speak, in a personal way. I can't see conservatives who reject the "trans is not trans but is" kind of thinking to have an issue but if you believe that socially and politically, do you really believe it when it comes down to the personal level? So much of liberal thinking today seems to be wrapped up in the levels of victimhood. How they come to their conclusions is so much based on how many victim points is awarded to a particular group. Most of the time it is 'feel good' type of responses of helping these oppressed groups but when it comes to a very personal level, the most personal it possibly can get, do they hold the line or does the 'feel good' just not feel good anymore. 

And wow... thanks for the compliment. I have not posted anything about Servant Leadership in years and years... at least 5 if not more. I guess I had some good things to say that made an impression. Good to see my grad work did something good.  :lmao:

 
Let's say you meet and talk like people do and as you talk a mutual attraction begins... at whay point do you think they are suppose to tell you in order to be truthful? Isn't the general liberal thinking now is that a transwoman is a woman? So... isn't "her truth" (I passionately hate that term) being "I am a woman"? Isn't telling you to be "truthful" a sort of lie? Or is she really not a woman and thus needs to be truthful about it?
I don't know what the general liberal thinking is. I'm not a liberal.

I thought about your OP and responded in an honest way and admitted I would not vote. I gave honest answers to your follow-up questions. 

I'm not interested in going out and finding a trans person to date. I'm not interested in dating at all right now. I honestly don't know if I'll ever date again. My girlfriend and love of my life recently died,...in my arms. I've yet to receive any reports as to why she died. I just thought you posed an interesting question that gave me pause. So I thought about it and answered. I'm not interested in having a debate. When it comes down to it, I believe each person is unique and there are too many factors involved to pigeon hole into a catch-all answer to your other questions posed in the above quote.

 
I don't know what the general liberal thinking is. I'm not a liberal.

I thought about your OP and responded in an honest way and admitted I would not vote. I gave honest answers to your follow-up questions. 

I'm not interested in going out and finding a trans person to date. I'm not interested in dating at all right now. I honestly don't know if I'll ever date again. My girlfriend and love of my life recently died,...in my arms. I've yet to receive any reports as to why she died. I just thought you posed an interesting question that gave me pause. So I thought about it and answered. I'm not interested in having a debate. When it comes down to it, I believe each person is unique and there are too many factors involved to pigeon hole into a catch-all answer to your other questions posed in the above quote.
I am sorry for your loss. That is unimaginable and heartbreaking. No words can do anything but I feel for you. 

My response was in that the post was very clear in asking those who are liberal and their view on this, I had the follow up questions based on that expectation that you were liberal because you were answering. I was not looking to debate or get confrontational. I was exploring it further, as again, I thought you to be a liberal since you responded and did not notate that you were not a liberal or progressive or leftist or whatever else. 

My best wishes for you moving forward. 
 

 
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Interesting post. 

The interesting aspect to all of this is the Wokestapo (an obvious reference to the Geheime Staatspolizei but is actually not a very good description as they do not act as a secret police force but more like a mob which would mean the Sturmabteilung aka brownshirts is a better analogy to how they act and operate but the problem with that is you can't make a clever little word mash with it as much). How people are so scared of the woke cancel culture mob. How many self identified liberals have made comment in one form or another about how this discussion would open them up to being attacked if in a different forum. I find this topic interesting as for me, being a conservative and holding the view that gender is genetic born assignment and however you decide to live does not change that. In terms of the public area, I am happy for them to live their lives as they see fit but do have strong concerns such as the above article pointing out the female only spaces being infringed upon. In my own life, an example of this is being the father of a 10 year old girl. When we are in public and she needs to go the bathroom, I am powerless to protect her as I can not go in the bathroom to clear it or just be in there (versus my sons, 6 and 8, where I go in with them). My wife's cousin has a daughter (transwoman) who transitioned in H.S. and is now in college. I want her to be happy (though I am convinced she will struggle though life) but so much of what is being pushed seems to infringe upon women (or females following your post). 

That post I fell upon made me think about how the left has been pushing the transwoman is a woman but then I think most straight males, perhaps even those who agree with that, would then put that to the test, so to speak, in a personal way. I can't see conservatives who reject the "trans is not trans but is" kind of thinking to have an issue but if you believe that socially and politically, do you really believe it when it comes down to the personal level? So much of liberal thinking today seems to be wrapped up in the levels of victimhood. How they come to their conclusions is so much based on how many victim points is awarded to a particular group. Most of the time it is 'feel good' type of responses of helping these oppressed groups but when it comes to a very personal level, the most personal it possibly can get, do they hold the line or does the 'feel good' just not feel good anymore. 

And wow... thanks for the compliment. I have not posted anything about Servant Leadership in years and years... at least 5 if not more. I guess I had some good things to say that made an impression. Good to see my grad work did something good.  :lmao:
Acknowledging a person as a women when they tell me that is what they are and wanting to be with them sexually are very different. 

 
Uh... ok... thanks for that contribution 
I may not have followed what you were saying but what was the bit about liberals needing to give victim points but not following up with it in this case when it comes down to it. 

What did you mean by this?

 
I am sorry for your loss. That is unimaginable and heartbreaking. No words can do anything but I feel for you. 

My response was in that the post was very clear in asking those who are liberal and their view on this, I had the follow up questions based on that expectation that you were liberal because you were answering. I was not looking to debate or get confrontational. I was exploring it further, as again, I thought you to be a liberal since you responded and did not notate that you were not a liberal or progressive or leftist or whatever else. 

My best wishes for you moving forward. 
 
Thank-you. I apologize, I should have clarified my allegiance in my first post. I'm independent. I didn't think you were trying to be confrontational. I also don't think I can provide simple answers to those other questions you had. It's not that simple to me. I can't imagine it's simple for trans people either.

(I've stated in here plenty of times that I'm independent but it seems to fall on deaf ears as I often see it posted that "those who claim they're independent are really just liberals in disguise." That's just crap. I'm certainly no conservative either. I'm not sure why some folks can't believe there are people in real life who like certain policies of each party but not all of them. I refuse to be forced to choose one or the other. I apologize again, this time for the tangent.)

 

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